Does any one know beyond the individual group projects whether or not there has been a comparative study done between the Irish M222 surnames & Scottish M222 surnames? I know that is a rather loaded question in that so many of the surnames cross; in which case it then comes down to heritage environs in sorting. The Irish have gotten some pretty good looks. Individual projects, and there are several administrators on the list who have taken these looks with-in their own projects. Would there be interest in the pooling of information already completed with-in these projects, ie pulling out the Scot M222 and comparing them as a huge group as has been done with many of the Irish studies, and then comparing the Scot data to the Irish data to see if the suspected diversity among the Scots is actualy valid? It seems that it has been an observation among many if the chatter is accurate, but has any one actually put it to the test? And is there value in doing so? I think it might carry value, although I'm not certain what else we would learn other that supporting or dispoving the casual observations, but in such a study we might turn up alliances otherwise not observable simply because of the group status defined by surname, clan, or geographic areas. This list being a sub-clade list has many participants from many groups, and it might be worth organizing a cooperative effort to look. Susan

Good idea, Susan! It seems that during the past couple of thousand years there has been a LOT of genetic migration between Ireland and Scotland, including the Western Isles, too. On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > Does any one know beyond the individual group projects whether or not > there has been a comparative study done between the Irish M222 surnames > & Scottish M222 surnames? > > I know that is a rather loaded question in that so many of the surnames > cross; in which case it then comes down to heritage environs in sorting. > > The Irish have gotten some pretty good looks. Individual projects, and > there are several administrators on the list who have taken these looks > with-in their own projects. Would there be interest in the pooling of > information already completed with-in these projects, ie pulling out the > Scot M222 and comparing them as a huge group as has been done with many > of the Irish studies, and then comparing the Scot data to the Irish data > to see if the suspected diversity among the Scots is actualy valid? > > It seems that it has been an observation among many if the chatter is > accurate, but has any one actually put it to the test? And is there > value in doing so? I think it might carry value, although I'm not > certain what else we would learn other that supporting or dispoving the > casual observations, but in such a study we might turn up alliances > otherwise not observable simply because of the group status defined by > surname, clan, or geographic areas. > > This list being a sub-clade list has many participants from many groups, > and it might be worth organizing a cooperative effort to look. Susan > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The variance exhibited by the Scots 67-marker M222+ at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Scottishdna/default.aspx is 8.83 compared to 9.04 for M222+ from all origins. The sample sizes were 47 and 538 respectively. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen Sent: 05 November 2011 16:52 To: dna-r1b1c7; DNA-R1B1C7-D-request@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Irish/Scottish M222 geographic spread study Does any one know beyond the individual group projects whether or not there has been a comparative study done between the Irish M222 surnames & Scottish M222 surnames? I know that is a rather loaded question in that so many of the surnames cross; in which case it then comes down to heritage environs in sorting. The Irish have gotten some pretty good looks. Individual projects, and there are several administrators on the list who have taken these looks with-in their own projects. Would there be interest in the pooling of information already completed with-in these projects, ie pulling out the Scot M222 and comparing them as a huge group as has been done with many of the Irish studies, and then comparing the Scot data to the Irish data to see if the suspected diversity among the Scots is actualy valid? It seems that it has been an observation among many if the chatter is accurate, but has any one actually put it to the test? And is there value in doing so? I think it might carry value, although I'm not certain what else we would learn other that supporting or dispoving the casual observations, but in such a study we might turn up alliances otherwise not observable simply because of the group status defined by surname, clan, or geographic areas. This list being a sub-clade list has many participants from many groups, and it might be worth organizing a cooperative effort to look. Susan R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hey, Sandy, Which 67 marker samples of this project were you comparing? Did you pull all the SNP & unambiguous M222+ (538) out of this project to compare to which 47? Those who had been SNP w/ Scot surnames?; those who carry Scottish surnames & unambiguous &/or SNP?; those who state emphatically Scottish environs of oldest known ancestor w/either SNP &/or unambiguous? What was the starting criteria for your samples other than being 67 marker strings? Did you compare your final results to the Irish data for M222+? Even though this is a geographic project, I'd guess it isn't representative of all those w/Scot supposed heritage as it is dependent on those joining who have tested under the surname and/or other smaller projects. For that matter, however, Ysearch, Sorenson Data, and other repositories of results are as well. I'd like to see some 37 marker work done and not just among Scott samples but Scott (surname and/or geographic area) in comparison to the Irish sampling of the same. And I'm willing to work with-in a group who will set study criteria, collect and/or contribute the data from their projects, etc. The 67 marker samplings among Scot geography are a great start but misses a significant number who have tested 37 only. Resolution of the 37 is fine for these kinds of looks and likely will yield the most data. Although 67 & 111 marker tests would seem to have more resolution, their greatest value in my opinion is in more recent relatedness between pairs and groups. I understand the concept that the more the markers the more mutations may be evident by virtue of the added opportunity to view more markers, however, the first 37 are actually targeting those more compatible with the time frame we are concerned with. The first 37 markers can easily be pulled from any result which tests a higher number of markers; however 30 or more markers cannot be assumed for those who have tested only 37. None the less, Sandy, your look is suggestive (depending on the sample criteria) that there is more variance with geographic spread. How that relates to the variance between those of Ireland and Scotland, however is yet unknown. In thinking about this more last eve, it might be good to also compare the Irish not only to the Scots, but those M222+ stating England, France, Germany/Austria/Switzerland and other environs where M222+ has cropped up in the testing. These kinds of comprehensive looks may be helpful in further hypothesizing directional spread -- east to west or west to east. It is a maybe as what is unknown is whether or not those tested descend from more indigenous peoples or those who simply descend from those who migrated in. One of our members has been looking in depth at the supposed M222 associated with the Abbeys set up by the Kindred in Scotland. One thing he discovered in his research was the missionary work which flowed out of these Abbeys. Apparently in addition to Celtic/Christianization of the populations in Scot environs they also sent out missionaries in groups of 13 to England, France, Germany, Spain and other European environs as well. He states that the evidence is showing that these missionaries were marrying and many also stayed in the environs where they were sent. Just some thoughts on the matter and very hopeful that several also see the value of these looks and willing to participate in a group effort. Too much work for 1 or 2 people alone, and since we all are volunteering our time to these interests, it isn't as if anyone is paying us because we work for a research group etc. Susan On 11/6/2011 5:02 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > The variance exhibited by the Scots 67-marker M222+ at > > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Scottishdna/default.aspx > > is 8.83 compared to 9.04 for M222+ from all origins. The > sample sizes were 47 and 538 respectively. > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen > Sent: 05 November 2011 16:52 > To: dna-r1b1c7; DNA-R1B1C7-D-request@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Irish/Scottish M222 geographic spread study > > Does any one know beyond the individual group projects whether or not > there has been a comparative study done between the Irish M222 surnames > & Scottish M222 surnames? > > I know that is a rather loaded question in that so many of the surnames > cross; in which case it then comes down to heritage environs in sorting. > > The Irish have gotten some pretty good looks. Individual projects, and > there are several administrators on the list who have taken these looks > with-in their own projects. Would there be interest in the pooling of > information already completed with-in these projects, ie pulling out the > Scot M222 and comparing them as a huge group as has been done with many > of the Irish studies, and then comparing the Scot data to the Irish data > to see if the suspected diversity among the Scots is actualy valid? > > It seems that it has been an observation among many if the chatter is > accurate, but has any one actually put it to the test? And is there > value in doing so? I think it might carry value, although I'm not > certain what else we would learn other that supporting or dispoving the > casual observations, but in such a study we might turn up alliances > otherwise not observable simply because of the group status defined by > surname, clan, or geographic areas. > > This list being a sub-clade list has many participants from many groups, > and it might be worth organizing a cooperative effort to look. Susan > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >