In a message dated 9/23/2011 7:17:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: The idea of a Scottish derbhfine system is the basis of G.A. MacGregor 2006 justification of Clann Donnachaidh's origin from the Celtic Earls of Atholl. I learn from G.A. MacGregor that in medieval Scotland there was land deemed heritable only in the male line, i.e., could not be passed by marriage, but held by derbhfine. It is through the continued ownership of Glenerochie that G.A. MacGregor makes the case for Clann Donnachaidh's origin from the Celtic Earls of Atholl http://design15.clickstay.net/supplement/Mag2007.pdf That was an interesting article by MacGregor. He basically follows Skene with a few modifications. This statement also occurs in the clan magazine. "‘It may be that there is some connection between the chiefly line and people with Niall-type results in Perthshire...perhaps it would be possible to identify immigration associated with the Columban monastic foundations (very much speculation). The Niall-type results are probably the main set of results that bring the three main surnames together: the groups that have the best matches with the chiefly line are Robertson and Duncan Niall-type results.’" I agree with the "very much speculation" statement by a clan spokesperson. Based on this 2007 publication they did not have a chieftain tested at the time. MacGregor begins with: "In reality very few positive steps forward have actually been taken in determining the male ancestry of the Clan mainly due to the lack of documentary evidence at hand." MacGregor actually describes a dual system of land inheritance, the first of which is clearly based on primogeniture. There aren't any female heirs in a derbhfine system. "The Lands of Glenerochie Destination played a vital role within the feudal system and its purpose was to define and stipulate the rules by which lands were allowed to be conveyed heritably. There were two basic categories: • The lands would be held by the heirs of the founder 2 whatsoever. This permitted the lands to pass to the closest heir of the last possessor, whether male or female. 3 • The lands would be held by the heirs-male whatsoever of the founder. This stipulated that lands could only be transferred to the closest representative in the male line. This could be a son, a brother, a cousin, or in certain instances, a very remote male relation. MacGregor labels the descent from Crinan a credible assumption. That was Skene's theory. "A credible assumption is that the Clan descends in some way from the original Earls of Atholl who descend from Crinan, Abbot of Dunkeld, through his son King Duncan I. whose subsequent Royal dynasty ended in the male line on the tragic death of King Alexander III at Kinghorn in 1282." I can buy that. Now what I would like to see is analysis of the DNA. I know there is a large group of Duncans who match McConnachies. There is a second group of M222 Duncans from Scotland who do not match. There's also a second group of McConchies who do not match. These are the McConchies Lawrence Dill is working on linked because of a possible ReCLOH at YCA11ab. The DNA is listed on the M222 web site. Each of these surnames apparently have two different unrelated M222 origins. I took a cursory look at the Robertson DNA. There's lots of M222 there. But I did not see any that matched the Duncan/McConnachie cluster. I do not yet know how well they match each other. There are a few M222 Reids. But none that I thougth were a good match to the Duncans/McConachies. A few share the 385=11-12 with the group but miss at other off modal markers. In the next few days I'll try and capture all the Robertson samples from the web site. Wikipedia doesn't have much on Crinan. "Crínán of Dunkeld (died 1045) was the lay abbot of the diocese of Dunkeld, and perhaps the Mormaer of Atholl. Crínán was progenitor of the House of Dunkeld, the dynasty which would rule Scotland until the later 13th century. Crinán was married to Bethoc, daughter of King Malcolm II of Scotland (reigned 1005–1034). As Malcolm II had no son, the strongest hereditary claim to the Scottish throne descended through Bethóc, and Crinán's eldest son Donnchad I (reigned 1034–1040), became King of Scots. Some sources indicate that Malcolm II designated Duncan as his successor under the rules of tanistry because there were other possible claimants to the throne. Crinán's second son, Maldred of Allerdale, held the title of Lord of Cumbria. It is said that from him, the Earls of Dunbar, for example Patrick Dunbar, 9th Earl of Dunbar, descend in unbroken male line. Crinán was killed in battle in 1045 at Dunkeld. Sir Iain Moncreiffe argued he belonged to a Scottish sept of the Irish Cenél Conaill royal dynasty.[1]" Under Mormaer of Atholl, Wikipedia has: "The Mormaer of Earl of Atholl refers to a medieval comital lordship straddling the highland province of Atholl (Ath Fodhla), now in northern Perthshire. Atholl is a special Mormaerdom, because a King of Atholl is reported from the Pictish period. The only other two Pictish kingdoms to be known from contemporary sources are Fortriu and Circinn. Indeed, the early thirteenth century document known to modern scholars as the de Situ Albanie repeats the claim that Atholl was an ancient Pictish kingdom. In the eleventh century, the famous Crínán of Dunkeld may have performed the role of Mormaer. Royal connections continued with Máel Muire, who was the son of King Donnchad I, and the younger brother of Máel Coluim III mac Donnchada. Matad was perhaps the most famous of the Mormaers, fathering Harald Maddadsson, a notorious rebel of the Scottish King and perhaps the first Gael to rule Orkney as Earl of Orkney. The line of Máel Muire and Crínán came to an end when Forbhlaith, the daughter of Mormaer Henry married David de Hastings." Maybe M222 in Scotland came from a tribe of Picts? That could be a possibility if the Clan Donnachaid indeed descended from the ancient Earls of Atholl. John