GREETINGS AND THANK YOU JOHN: INTERESTING INFORMATION THAT MAY SPEAK TO THE IDEA HAD OF A VERY EARLY "M-222+" SPREAD INTO SCOTLAND FROM IRELAND, AS WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING BASED UPON OTHER INFORMATION AND ANALYSIS! HAS THE ISSUE OF WHETHER SOME OF THE "CRUITHNE" IN IRELAND & SCOTLAND COULD HAVE BEEN M-222+ BEEN DISCUSSED? THANKS AGAIN, DON MILLIGAN -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 9:10 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Laud 610 Laud 610, one of the oldest if not the oldest collection of genealogies and tribal histories, has a section on the origin of the Dal Cuinn. I just found a translation for it done by some one the Old Irish list. John Mac Neill in his notes to Laud 610 states that: "the origin story of Dal Cuinn, p. 313, indicating an early form of the legend of Mail, ancestor here not of all the Gaedhil but only of the race of Conn, who conquered the Picts, with whom his ancestors had shared the sovereignty;" I suspect not all it is correctly translated but it seems close. There are couple of odd statements. In one, the unnamed ancestor of the Dal Cuinn is called the "second" Mil Espaine. In another section it seems to say the Dal Cuinn and Dal Fiatach were related. I am unable to link Mac Neill's statements with the text as translated. However if they were a second wave of Milesian conquerors wouldn't that imply as O'Rahilly stated that they were late arrivals in Ireland? And that the invasion leader was not Conn of the Hundred Battles but some earlier ancestor? I was also struck by the fact that they Dal Cuinn mainly mention wars with the Cruithin of the north, the Dal nAraidhi. Could that mean they settled in the north? Jerry might have an opinion on some of the translation. Here's the Laud 610 text. Co fessaid bunad Dáil Chuind & a n-imthechta. Trí maic Búain maic Loegairi Birnd ótá Ossirge, .i. Ailill, Óengus, Fíacc, ciatarochlannsat cletha hi Temuir. Is hí amser indatánic in Míl Espáne tánaise ind-hÉirind, trí cóicit fer a llín. Gabais Trácht Delossath & doforbertatar hi tír & adrartatar inreth már & gabsit tír and ar chlaideb. Is amlaid rogabsat flaith ar chiumd & bid samlaid dogrés, tria hécin gabait flaith. Is hí a chland Dal Cuind & Dál Fíachach. Asberat alaili bed di lucht na luinge forácabsat hi tír Amazonum .i. lasna cíchloiscthi in tEugan Táidlech. In Míl Espáne dedenach immurgu, ba dóich lind bid din lucht forácaibset som hi cathir Breogaint. Ocus is íarum dollotar dochum hÉirenn co nhúraib cathrach Themis leó. Itt é side húra doléicthe hi Temair íar tóchil hÉirenn, conid Temair a hainm ind aird sin .i. theme .i. úr dind húir a Themis alacheill in sin. Is hé in bith deédenach diand ebrath bith síl Chuind & Muman ind fhlaith co bráth. Cruithnig conasensat in flaith friu. Is de dogéni Fínán mac Fíachrach di Dál Aride: Manud báig ar Thipraite báithum arber do suidiu, {folio 97b2} secht cathae at chetharchait ar secht cétaib is huilliu. Conarnic cenél Cuinn, mebdatar an-nói díib, ar ba la Cruithniu ind fhlaith, conidtánic ind longes dedenach forsin lith tuaiscertaig sin. Adroat doib dano cach la flaith conidtánic Conn Cétchathach. Translation. 35. So that ye may know the origin of Dál C. and their exploits. 36. Three sons of Búan mac Lóegaire Birn, from whom are [descended] the Osraige; i.e. Ailill, Óengus [and] Fíacc, who first planted house-posts in Tara. 37. It is the time in which the second Míl Espáine in Ireland came to them. Three fifties of men their number. 38. He reached Delossath Beach and advanced inland and wreaked great devastation and captured land there by the sword. Alternate -- He seized the shore by fury etc. 39. Thus they took lordship from then on, and thus it will be always, (that it is) by force they take lordship. 40. His progeny is this: Dál Cuind and Dál Fíachach. Some say that the Shining Éogan is [one] of the mariners that they left in the land of the Amazons, i.e. among the breast-cauterised ones. 41. The last Míl Espâne, however, it seems to us that he was of the people whom they left in (the) city of Breogan. 42. And it is after that [i.e. after they left the land of the Amazones: §40] that they came to Ireland, with the clays of the city of Themis in their possession. 43. It is those clays which were thrown down in Tara after reaching Ireland, so that Tara is the name of that high place, i.e. theme [? = Latin thema 'that which is set down'?]. 44. It is [now] the final era, of which it was said: the sovereignty will be Síl Cuinn's and Mumu's forever. 45. Cruithni contested the sovereignty with them. It is for that reason Fînán mac Fîachrach composed [the following] concerning the Dál nAraidi: 46. Provided he didn't fight for Tipraite I raised an army for the latter. Seven battles and forty and seven hundred more. 47. Cenél Cuinn gave battle, they broke upon them in a ship. For sovereignty had belonged to the Cruithni, and the final invasion fell to it [i.e. to Cenél Cuinn] on that northern shore (northern side?). 48. However, sovereignty was conceded to them alternately until it came to him, namely Conn Cétchathach. 49. Indeed Conn Cétchathach fought a hundred battles and a hundred conflicts concerning that sovereignty against the Dál nAraidi. 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