I can quote from a recent publication about the ancient Dunbar lineage which may or may not shed light on the possible connection between the Dunbars and Crinan. Taken from: "Mighty Subjects - The Dunbar Earls in Scotland c1072-1289" by Elsa Hamilton published 2010 Glasgow Scotland. Elsa is affiliated with the Paradox of Medieval Scotland Project: http://www.poms.ac.uk/ Pg 7 in reference to the 1st Gospatric of Dunbar c1072: "Who was he, this Gospatric, earl of Northumbria? Certainly he was no low-born adventurer, for on his mother's side he was descended from both the English royal house of Wessex, and the House of Bamburgh, rulers of the northern Northumbrian kingdom of Bernicia. About his father, Maldred, there is much speculation. It was once thought that Maldred, who is called "son of Crinan", was the brother of Duncan I, king of Scots; and that Gospatric, consequently, was a first cousin of Malcolm III. If that were so, it would offer a convincing explanation of the generosity Malcolm apparently showed to him. But there is not a shred of proof that Crinan, his grandfather, was the same Crinan who was Malcolm's grandfather. Maldred, Gospatric's father, is said to have been a thane, and a very wealthy man, and the strong likelihood is that Gospatric's mother, Ealdgyth, married not a member of the Scottish royal house, but one of the richest of her father Earl Uhtred's top officials in Northumbria"2 2 Footnote: B.W.S. Barrow, Companions of the Atheling, Anglo-Norman Studies......Professor Barrow disarmingly offers to eat 'humble pie' if the identification of Gospatric's grandfather Crinan with Crinan, lay abbot of Dunkeld and father of Duncan I, can be proven. We have recently been reminded, however, that the name Crinan, applied to Maldred's father and the abbot of Dunkeld and a moneyer of King Cnut, occurs in Britain only in this generation and that it seems strange that it "should simultaneously belong to three unrelated individuals' (Woolf, *Pictland to Alba*, 252). The pendulum may therefore be swinging slightly back towards to the possibility that Gospatric was Malcolm's cousin." Clan Irwin claims to be brother to Crinan and at one point we thought we'd triangulated the DNA back one more generation but that group (which includes Irwin bluebloods) is haplogroup R-L21+ while the Dunbar Lineage 1 group, which includes Dunbar bluebloods) is R-L257. Doubt this issue as to who descends from Crinan will be resolved anytime soon. -- Debra Dunbar Nowell – Administrator - Dunbar Surname YDNA Project http://www.DunbarDNA.org/ DNA Administrator- Clan Dunbar, Inc. http://www.clandunbar.com/ *A Family Tree DNA project*

Oram clearly regards Cospatrick as Anglo-Saxon though, in Domination and Lordship, Scotland 1070-1230. He doesn't go into a detailed exploration of his ancestry but his behaviour and associates seem to put him more in this camp? 'He was the first and most prominent of a group of Anglo-Saxon emigres who gravitated towards Scotland and settled there...' Iain > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 08:47:38 -0400 > From: dunbardna@gmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Clan Donnachaidh M222 > > I can quote from a recent publication about the ancient Dunbar lineage which > may or may not shed light on the possible connection between the Dunbars and > Crinan. > > Taken from: "Mighty Subjects - The Dunbar Earls in Scotland c1072-1289" by > Elsa Hamilton published 2010 Glasgow Scotland. > > Elsa is affiliated with the Paradox of Medieval Scotland Project: > http://www.poms.ac.uk/ > > Pg 7 in reference to the 1st Gospatric of Dunbar c1072: > > "Who was he, this Gospatric, earl of Northumbria? Certainly he was no > low-born adventurer, for on his mother's side he was descended from both the > English royal house of Wessex, and the House of Bamburgh, rulers of the > northern Northumbrian kingdom of Bernicia. About his father, Maldred, there > is much speculation. It was once thought that Maldred, who is called "son > of Crinan", was the brother of Duncan I, king of Scots; and that Gospatric, > consequently, was a first cousin of Malcolm III. If that were so, it would > offer a convincing explanation of the generosity Malcolm apparently showed > to him. But there is not a shred of proof that Crinan, his grandfather, was > the same Crinan who was Malcolm's grandfather. Maldred, Gospatric's father, > is said to have been a thane, and a very wealthy man, and the strong > likelihood is that Gospatric's mother, Ealdgyth, married not a member of the > Scottish royal house, but one of the richest of her father Earl Uhtred's top > officials in Northumbria"2 > > 2 Footnote: B.W.S. Barrow, Companions of the Atheling, Anglo-Norman > Studies......Professor Barrow disarmingly offers to eat 'humble pie' if the > identification of Gospatric's grandfather Crinan with Crinan, lay abbot of > Dunkeld and father of Duncan I, can be proven. We have recently been > reminded, however, that the name Crinan, applied to Maldred's father and the > abbot of Dunkeld and a moneyer of King Cnut, occurs in Britain only in this > generation and that it seems strange that it "should simultaneously belong > to three unrelated individuals' (Woolf, *Pictland to Alba*, 252). The > pendulum may therefore be swinging slightly back towards to the possibility > that Gospatric was Malcolm's cousin." > > Clan Irwin claims to be brother to Crinan and at one point we thought we'd > triangulated the DNA back one more generation but that group (which includes > Irwin bluebloods) is haplogroup R-L21+ while the Dunbar Lineage 1 group, > which includes Dunbar bluebloods) is R-L257. > > Doubt this issue as to who descends from Crinan will be resolved anytime > soon. > > > -- > Debra Dunbar Nowell – Administrator - Dunbar Surname YDNA Project > http://www.DunbarDNA.org/ > > DNA Administrator- Clan Dunbar, Inc. > http://www.clandunbar.com/ > > *A Family Tree DNA project* > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It may be of interest that the M222 Dunbars in Lineage 2 carry 5 of the 9/111 off-modal markers in the "Nith" cluster, suggesting a linkage with the Grierson/Amuligane families pre1000AD. They also carry 9 or 10/111 off-modals of their own not seen in Grierson supporting a separation about 1000 years ago. David Grierson On 27/09/2011 10:47 PM, Debra Dunbar-Nowell wrote: > I can quote from a recent publication about the ancient Dunbar lineage which > may or may not shed light on the possible connection between the Dunbars and > Crinan. > > Taken from: "Mighty Subjects - The Dunbar Earls in Scotland c1072-1289" by > Elsa Hamilton published 2010 Glasgow Scotland. > > Elsa is affiliated with the Paradox of Medieval Scotland Project: > http://www.poms.ac.uk/ > > Pg 7 in reference to the 1st Gospatric of Dunbar c1072: > > "Who was he, this Gospatric, earl of Northumbria? Certainly he was no > low-born adventurer, for on his mother's side he was descended from both the > English royal house of Wessex, and the House of Bamburgh, rulers of the > northern Northumbrian kingdom of Bernicia. About his father, Maldred, there > is much speculation. It was once thought that Maldred, who is called "son > > of Crinan", was the brother of Duncan I, king of Scots; and that Gospatric, > consequently, was a first cousin of Malcolm III. If that were so, it would > offer a convincing explanation of the generosity Malcolm apparently showed > > to him. But there is not a shred of proof that Crinan, his grandfather, was > the same Crinan who was Malcolm's grandfather. Maldred, Gospatric's father, > is said to have been a thane, and a very wealthy man, and the strong > likelihood is that Gospatric's mother, Ealdgyth, married not a member of the > Scottish royal house, but one of the richest of her father Earl Uhtred's top > officials in Northumbria"2 > > 2 Footnote: B.W.S. Barrow, Companions of the Atheling, Anglo-Norman > Studies......Professor Barrow disarmingly offers to eat 'humble pie' if the > identification of Gospatric's grandfather Crinan with Crinan, lay abbot of > Dunkeld and father of Duncan I, can be proven. We have recently been > reminded, however, that the name Crinan, applied to Maldred's father and the > abbot of Dunkeld and a moneyer of King Cnut, occurs in Britain only in this > generation and that it seems strange that it "should simultaneously belong > > to three unrelated individuals' (Woolf, *Pictland to Alba*, 252). The > pendulum may therefore be swinging slightly back towards to the possibility > that Gospatric was Malcolm's cousin." > > Clan Irwin claims to be brother to Crinan and at one point we thought we'd > > triangulated the DNA back one more generation but that group (which includes > Irwin bluebloods) is haplogroup R-L21+ while the Dunbar Lineage 1 group, > which includes Dunbar bluebloods) is R-L257. > > Doubt this issue as to who descends from Crinan will be resolved anytime > soon. > >