The mention of Ossary "who first planted house-posts in Tara" is interesting in regard to Dal Fiachach. For Dal Fiachach takes the Ossary lands in "The Explusion of the Deisi". Paul, where is the alternative Tara location by the Shannon? >From Éigse: a journal of Irish studies, Volume 21, 1984; "The Deisi and Dyfed": "... It follows from all of this we must be careful in drawing inferences from any statement made about the Deisi in the texts: are they referring to the people and territories of what we know today as Waterford and south Tipperary? Or to the genealogical entity known as Dal Fiachach Suidge? Or, more generally, to vassal or rent-paying tribes? As far as ED is concerned, this matter of the ambiguity of Deisi can be dealt with by giving a broad outline of the story and then going on to establish at what points in the narrative the different meanings of Deisi come into play. ED tells of the explusion of the Deisi from Meath, their sojourn in Leinster, and their settlement in Wales and Munster. The story opens with the statement that Art Corb (of Dal Fiachach Suidge) had four sons, Brecc, Oengus, Echaid and Forad. The son of Cormac mac Airt. King of Tara, ravish Forad’s daughter, and Oengus went to the king’s court in search of the girl. There Oengus attacked and killed the king’s son, and he also inadvertently blinded the king in one eye. Oengus escaped, taking Forad's daughter with him. Since the loss of his eye was a blemish (ainem), Cormac was thereby disqualified from holding the kingship, and he was obliged to leave Tara. The Deisi were driven into Leinster; the account of their sojourn there is confused and chronologically inconsistent, and we shall have to return to it. For the present it will be enough to say that the Deisi were welcomed in Leinster by Fiachu ba Aiccid, who settled them in territories he had seized from the Ui Bairrche. There the Deisi remained until the time of Crimthann son of Enna Ceinselach, when the Ui Baircche forcibly reposed their territories, and the Deisi were taken to Ard Ladrann by Crimthann. In the meantime, Echaid son of Art Corb had gone to Dyfed with his family and settled there. Those of the Deisi who had gone to Ard Ladrann did not remain there for long, for after Crimthann's death they were driven out once more, first into Osraige, and then to the south-west. Finally, they entered into an alliance with Oengus son of Nad-Fraich, king of Cashel : Ethne Uathach of the Deisi was betrothed to Oengus, and the Deisi in return were permitted to drive the Osraige out of their territories in what is now south County Tipperary, and settle there themselves. Eithne Uathach gathered together all the exiled groups in Ireland to help the Deisi, who eventually routed the Osraige and settle in their territory. In attempting to disentangle the different senses in which Deisi is used in this story, I think we can say that it was Dal Fiachach Suidge who were expelled from Meath and spent a period in Leinster, that it was one of their branches which crossed the sea to Dyfed, and that it was other of their branches which were to settle territories wrested from the Osraige in what is now south County Tipperary. It is in the course of the attempt by Dal Fiachach to drive the Osraige out of those territories that we come across Deisi in the sense of 'vassal-tribes'. The Osraige defeat the invaders in seven battles (R 16; L 100 f. Others give the number of battles as thirty, L 101). Because Dal Fiachach have been depleted in many battles, Ethne gathers to them every migratory band of which she knows in Ireland (R §22; L 104 f.) The point in the sequence of events at which we are told of Ethne's action differs in L and R ; in L, it is after the Osraige have won seven (or thirty) victories in battle but before they have been routed ; in R, Ethne's action is revealed after the account of the rout. In any case, the claim of ED here is that Dal Fiachach acquired these tribes as allies at some stage of their settlement of their Munster territories, and that Dal Fiachach and the allied tribes henceforth constituted the Deisi. The texts go on to make a distinction between Dal Fiachach and the Deisi properly (that is, etymologically) so called : 'There are fifty migratory bands among the Deisi . . . and it is these migratory bands which are called Deisi, for they are under the rent and legal obligation and croft-rent (bothachas) of vassals to lords, that is, to Dal Fiachach Suidge, and the latter are not called Deisi (R 22; cf. L 215 ff.). The account in ED of their settlement in East Munster purports to tell us how the Deisi were constituted ; what the origin was of the relationship between Dal Fiachach and the other constituent groups, on the one hand, and of that between Dal Fiachach and the Eoganacht dynasty of Cashel, on the other; and how the Deisi established themselves in their Tipperary territories. There are many other points of interest (and not a few difficulties) in the treatment of these matters in our texts, but a discussion of them must await another occasion." > From: pconroy63@gmail.com > Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 11:17:57 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Laud 610 > > That's interesting: > > > > 36. Three sons of Búan mac Lóegaire Birn, from whom are [descended] the > > Osraige; i.e. Ailill, Óengus [and] Fíacc, who first planted house-posts > > in Tara. > > > Again, Osraige (aka Ossary) is Western Laois and Northern Kilkenny and parts > of North East Tipperary - the area my family has lived in since > time immemorial. It borders on the territory known as "Ely O'Carroll", which > I presume is the same as "Éle" mentioned above. > > Ossary contains a lot of M222+, such as Dunn(e) and Daltons. > > Cheers, > Paul > > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Bernard Morgan > <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > >From the Book of Ballymote: > > "Cuic mc. la Feidlimid .r. {68b} .i. Conn .c.c. o raiter Leith Cuind, & > > Cael a quo Caelraighe & Crinda & Croisine & Eochu find fuath nairt, no fuath > > nandhea & is uadh Fotharta & Fiacha suighe a quo na Desi & Fiacha raidhe a > > quo Corca Raidhe." > > > > Dal Fiachach Suighe descend from a brother of Conn of a hundred battles. > > They settle in Tipperary (i.e. of the Dessi), yet others the Corca Raidhe > > the progeny of Fiacha Raidhe mac Fiacha Suighdhe have the barony of > > Corkaree, Co. Westmeath named for them. This is within the realm of Cenel > > Fiachach mac Neill. > > > > (The tale of "The Explusion of the Dessi", tells of Dal Fiachach Suighe > > loss of power.) > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
The alternative Tara (aka Teamhair) is Turoe (aka Teamhair) in East county Galway. The basic idea was that a large Fir Bolg (aka Belgae, La Tene Celts) invasion occurred in the area. More here: http://homepage.tinet.ie/~Williamfinnerty/sd1.htm Note: the Turoe Stone is distinctively La Tene (Celtic Iron Age) in style, and one of only 3 in Ireland, the next nearest is in Roscommon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turoe_stone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castlestrange_stone On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com>wrote: > > The mention of Ossary "who first planted house-posts in Tara" is > interesting in regard to Dal Fiachach. For Dal Fiachach takes the Ossary > lands in "The Explusion of the Deisi". Paul, where is the alternative Tara > location by the Shannon? > > >From Éigse: a journal of Irish studies, Volume 21, 1984; "The Deisi and > Dyfed": > "... It follows from all of this we must be careful in drawing inferences > from any statement made about the Deisi in the texts: are they referring to > the people and territories of what we know today as Waterford and south > Tipperary? Or to the genealogical entity known as Dal Fiachach Suidge? Or, > more generally, to vassal or rent-paying tribes? As far as ED is concerned, > this matter of the ambiguity of Deisi can be dealt with by giving a broad > outline of the story and then going on to establish at what points in the > narrative the different meanings of Deisi come into play. > ED tells of the explusion of the Deisi from Meath, their sojourn in > Leinster, and their settlement in Wales and Munster. The story opens with > the statement that Art Corb (of Dal Fiachach Suidge) had four sons, Brecc, > Oengus, Echaid and Forad. The son of Cormac mac Airt. King of Tara, ravish > Forad’s daughter, and Oengus went to the king’s court in search of the girl. > There Oengus attacked and killed the king’s son, and he also inadvertently > blinded the king in one eye. Oengus escaped, taking Forad's daughter with > him. Since the loss of his eye was a blemish (ainem), Cormac was thereby > disqualified from holding the kingship, and he was obliged to leave Tara. > The Deisi were driven into Leinster; the account of their sojourn there is > confused and chronologically inconsistent, and we shall have to return to > it. For the present it will be enough to say that the Deisi were welcomed in > Leinster by Fiachu ba Aiccid, who settled them in territories he had seized > from the Ui Bairrche. There the Deisi remained until the time of Crimthann > son of Enna Ceinselach, when the Ui Baircche forcibly reposed their > territories, and the Deisi were taken to Ard Ladrann by Crimthann. In the > meantime, Echaid son of Art Corb had gone to Dyfed with his family and > settled there. Those of the Deisi who had gone to Ard Ladrann did not remain > there for long, for after Crimthann's death they were driven out once more, > first into Osraige, and then to the south-west. Finally, they entered into > an alliance with Oengus son of Nad-Fraich, king of Cashel : Ethne Uathach of > the Deisi was betrothed to Oengus, and the Deisi in return were permitted to > drive the Osraige out of their territories in what is now south County > Tipperary, and settle there themselves. Eithne Uathach gathered together all > the exiled groups in Ireland to help the Deisi, who eventually routed the > Osraige and settle in their territory. > In attempting to disentangle the different senses in which Deisi is used in > this story, I think we can say that it was Dal Fiachach Suidge who were > expelled from Meath and spent a period in Leinster, that it was one of their > branches which crossed the sea to Dyfed, and that it was other of their > branches which were to settle territories wrested from the Osraige in what > is now south County Tipperary. It is in the course of the attempt by Dal > Fiachach to drive the Osraige out of those territories that we come across > Deisi in the sense of 'vassal-tribes'. The Osraige defeat the invaders in > seven battles (R 16; L 100 f. Others give the number of battles as thirty, L > 101). Because Dal Fiachach have been depleted in many battles, Ethne gathers > to them every migratory band of which she knows in Ireland (R §22; L 104 f.) > The point in the sequence of events at which we are told of Ethne's action > differs in L and R ; in L, it is after the Osraige have won seven (or > thirty) victories in battle but before they have been routed ; in R, Ethne's > action is revealed after the account of the rout. In any case, the claim of > ED here is that Dal Fiachach acquired these tribes as allies at some stage > of their settlement of their Munster territories, and that Dal Fiachach and > the allied tribes henceforth constituted the Deisi. The texts go on to make > a distinction between Dal Fiachach and the Deisi properly (that is, > etymologically) so called : 'There are fifty migratory bands among the Deisi > . . . and it is these migratory bands which are called Deisi, for they are > under the rent and legal obligation and croft-rent (bothachas) of vassals to > lords, that is, to Dal Fiachach Suidge, and the latter are not called Deisi > (R 22; cf. L 215 ff.). The account in ED of their settlement in East Munster > purports to tell us how the Deisi were constituted ; what the origin was of > the relationship between Dal Fiachach and the other constituent groups, on > the one hand, and of that between Dal Fiachach and the Eoganacht dynasty of > Cashel, on the other; and how the Deisi established themselves in their > Tipperary territories. There are many other points of interest (and not a > few difficulties) in the treatment of these matters in our texts, but a > discussion of them must await another occasion." > > > > > From: pconroy63@gmail.com > > Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 11:17:57 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Laud 610 > > > > That's interesting: > > > > > > 36. Three sons of Búan mac Lóegaire Birn, from whom are [descended] the > > > Osraige; i.e. Ailill, Óengus [and] Fíacc, who first planted house-posts > > > in Tara. > > > > > > Again, Osraige (aka Ossary) is Western Laois and Northern Kilkenny and > parts > > of North East Tipperary - the area my family has lived in since > > time immemorial. It borders on the territory known as "Ely O'Carroll", > which > > I presume is the same as "Éle" mentioned above. > > > > Ossary contains a lot of M222+, such as Dunn(e) and Daltons. > > > > Cheers, > > Paul > > > > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Bernard Morgan > > <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >From the Book of Ballymote: > > > "Cuic mc. la Feidlimid .r. {68b} .i. Conn .c.c. o raiter Leith Cuind, & > > > Cael a quo Caelraighe & Crinda & Croisine & Eochu find fuath nairt, no > fuath > > > nandhea & is uadh Fotharta & Fiacha suighe a quo na Desi & Fiacha > raidhe a > > > quo Corca Raidhe." > > > > > > Dal Fiachach Suighe descend from a brother of Conn of a hundred > battles. > > > They settle in Tipperary (i.e. of the Dessi), yet others the Corca > Raidhe > > > the progeny of Fiacha Raidhe mac Fiacha Suighdhe have the barony of > > > Corkaree, Co. Westmeath named for them. This is within the realm of > Cenel > > > Fiachach mac Neill. > > > > > > (The tale of "The Explusion of the Dessi", tells of Dal Fiachach Suighe > > > loss of power.) > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >