In a message dated 7/7/2011 9:26:18 A.M. Central Daylight Time, stephen.forrest@gmail.com writes: Incidentally, there's an ongoing discussion on dna-forums.org somewhat relevant to this discussion. I mentioned last week that there is a recently-identified SNP upstream of M222, called DF23. Some STR results for DF23+ M222- men have been released and they are DYS392=14 and DYS390=25, meaning they share a couple markers with their downstream cousins. This suggests that there are M222- men out there with North-West STR signatures, and they might try ordering DF23 when it's available from FTDNA. I saw your original post and am glad you re-posted this. I haven't been able to check it out yet because my account at DNA forums is not working and that seems to be the only forum in which it's being discussed. John