New topic: M222 in NW Ireland I know there has been much talk about where M222 originated as to the progenitor. If one looks at the epicenter in NW Ireland and read the history of the Scottish clans, it appears the dilution is from west>east as thought by O'Rahilly but not borne by archaeology today. My clan, Donnachaidh (Robertson) history is of the kindred of St Columba and descend from the hereditary abbots of Iona, Dull & Dunkeld to the Earls of Atholl straight patrilineally from NW Ireland. Donnachaidh is reputed to be the oldest clan in Scotland per Skeene & Moncreiffe. Approximately 15% of the clan has the M222 marker. I can follow from Alexander Reid of Strathloch (baron Ruaidh) Reid > direct to Crinan, Abbot of Dunkeld d1045 AD, who was of St Columba's kindred to Conall Gulban to Niall. I do not believe, like most, that Niall was the projenitor, but common sense dictates the projenitor was from NW Ireland based on statistical concentration. Anywhere from early AD (100-400) either from legendary Techmar down to Niall but sense dictates a patrilineal legacy such as a 'Genghis Khan'. The archaeology that I have studied is not convincing for an east>west modal and the artifacts found in England & Ireland could have happened by trade looking at geographical distribution which does not show that much of a concentration as compared to Ireland. I know this sounds corny but I had high expectations for a positive DNA for M222 when I ordered the FTDNA back in May 2011 based on genealogy and history of the clan & upon the Baron Reids being direct ancestors of Crinan of Atholl. Many members of Clan Donnachaidh aren't of the M222 mix as noted, as many Picts and I1 halogroups (Norwegian) were assimulated in the clan in the Atholl. In addition, many Robertson/Reid/Duncan women associated with the clan married Picts & I1 men. It would be curious to study MTDNA from NW Ireland as to see what comes up as to a matriarch in that locale. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 5:01 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 218 Today's Topics: 1. Re: New Tactics (Iain Kennedy) 2. Re: New Tactics (Alexander Paterson) 3. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 216 (Paul Docherty) 4. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 216 (tuulen) 5. Re: Calculation of a correlation coeficient (Alexander Paterson) 6. Re: New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' (Jerry Kelly) 7. Re: New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' (Iain Kennedy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 08:09:49 +0000 From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU116-W132C06C8D2E9EAFD8F435AA94F0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as long as they got the right one they were after. I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as Kennedys. Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the other man's patronymic? Iain http://www.kennedydna.com > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well > into the 18th century. > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > 'post 1743' > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > Kennedy his brother > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in > the names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against > him, > 578 > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames > but just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between > the patronymics). > > > > John > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:06:48 +0100 From: "Alexander Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000001cc477d$25104890$6f30d9b0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Another thing that complicates Scots genealogy is that people often changed their surnames for health reasons. One line of Lamonts that I've traced back to 1710 fled the Cowal peninsula after the Lamont massacre in 1646 and used the surname Patrick while living on the mainland. Over the period 1710 to 1718 a John Patrick and Findwall Hunter registered the birth of four sons in Inverkip. Three of the sons returned to Cowal as adults, married, and had children. One of them, whose birth was registered in 1710 under the name Archibald Patrick, named his children as follows: Isabel Lamont b 1737 Donald Lamont b 1738 Duncan Patrick b 1742 William McFatrick b 1744 Mary Patrick b 1746 More Lamont b 1749 Duncan McPhatrick b 1752 So. Three Lamonts, two Patricks one McFatrick and one McPhatrick, all born to the same parents, Archibald Patrick (Lamont) and Janet Currie, all births registered at Inverchaolain parish. It seems that at times, certain surnames were not good to have. So for example, in the build up to the Jacobite uprising of '45, many Lamonts, (who didn't participate in the '45), used other surnames. In the above case, once the dust had settle after Culloden, the name Lamont was reverted to, but by 1752, by which time there were more Jacobite rumblings, the surname McPhatrick was used. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 21 July 2011 03:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 09:43:41 +0100 From: Paul Docherty <paul@dochertyhome.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 216 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <B3DA5BE9-F534-42F5-B205-E379501B0FBD@dochertyhome.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All, I have spent a good few years sifting through the online archives and have extracted some of the old out of print books which have been of use in my Doherty research and made them available as print ready books here www.mypastpresent.com I realise that most of you will have electronic copies of the books but these are cleaned up versions of them which I find useful to have at hand instead of staring at the screen. I'm not making a business out of this and any profit made goes into furthering my genealogy research, so please don't think of this as spamming. The reprints are from the original scanned pages which have been painstakingly cleaned up by myself and submitted to Lulu.com for printing and are not the OCR'd versions found elsewhere. If anyone wants to see other books reprinted like this I have a little time this summer to look into it just drop me a line. As far as I am aware I'm not breaking any copyrights by doing this but if anyone knows different then please let me know and I will withdraw them. Best regards Paul Docherty ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 05:22:56 -0400 From: tuulen <tuulen@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 216 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <CABbuTowFOTVgCSm=OctD4en1o_g5euW7tNbB=G-jc1N6LC-1yA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, Paul, I am new at DNA family research, but I have discovered that I apparently am related to others of the Doherty name, as of perhaps a very long time ago. My name is Morrison, and apparently my family has a genetic origin somewhere in northern Ulster, perhaps Counties Derry and Donegal and thereabouts. Good to meet you! Doug On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 4:43 AM, Paul Docherty <paul@dochertyhome.com>wrote: > Hi All, > I have spent a good few years sifting through the online archives and have > extracted some of the old out of print books which have been of use in my > Doherty research and made them available as print ready books here > > www.mypastpresent.com > > I realise that most of you will have electronic copies of the books but > these are cleaned up versions of them which I find useful to have at hand > instead of staring at the screen. > I'm not making a business out of this and any profit made goes into > furthering my genealogy research, so please don't think of this as spamming. > > The reprints are from the original scanned pages which have been > painstakingly cleaned up by myself and submitted to Lulu.com for printing > and are not the OCR'd versions found elsewhere. > > If anyone wants to see other books reprinted like this I have a little time > this summer to look into it just drop me a line. > > As far as I am aware I'm not breaking any copyrights by doing this but if > anyone knows different then please let me know and I will withdraw them. > > Best regards > > Paul Docherty > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:10:04 +0100 From: "Alexander Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Calculation of a correlation coeficient To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000001cc4796$be1b2be0$3a5183a0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" You must be the Steve Forrest from the L21+ group. I'm curious about Hannan, kit number 96185. He is an M222+ lookalike, but is L21+, M222-. Do you know whether he has asked FTDNA to check his M222- status? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Forrest Sent: 17 July 2011 22:02 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Calculation of a correlation coeficient Hi Bill, I don't think this discussion is wasting people's time, though I do rather wish the tone were overall rather more civil. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:19:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <1311272378.16334.YahooMailRC@web180707.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Iain, As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan son of Niall O'Kennedy. The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way it was recorded. In those documents, English officials were usually careful to get the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the actions of the individual. I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about. If there are only a few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is needed for identification. The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of the words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which are influenced by the Irish custom). Take for example the well-known TV host on TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n. (See http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124 ) His name means 'Martin Tom of John' (Martin Tom son of John). Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John). Either way, the 3 names make clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as long as they got the right one they were after. I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as Kennedys. Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the other man's patronymic? Iain http://www.kennedydna.com > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > 18th century. > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > 'post 1743' > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > Kennedy his brother > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > 578 > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > patronymics). > > > > John > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:01:02 +0000 From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU116-W29ACE2D0CA52FA04BB939A94F0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Jerry, I would say that in Scotland it is an unusual form, most records either have a modern forename/surname or a multi-part patronymic but rarely does the latter have a modern surname stuck on the end. The Kilmallie rental list that follows sums up how names operated, the chief guys are showing the clan name Cameron and all the lesser men just have patronymics. Given the control of the dominant clan it is most likely that all these would have been considered 'Camerons'. But in Kilmallie in this period the concept of a surname didn't really exist which is why sometimes if a person moved out of the area it was possible for his surname to change. RENTALS OF GLENLUIE AND LOCH ARKAIG IN 1642.NAMES. 1. Ewen Cameron of Lochiel in Moy. 2. Donald Cameron, Tutor of Lochiel. 3. Ewen Cameron, alias Bodach in Erracht. 4. Ewen Vic Allister More. 5. Donald Vic Coull Vic Allister in Barr. 6. John Dhu Vic Coil Oig in Strone. 7. John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic Conchie in Inveruiskavullen. 8. Duncan Macmartin of Letterfinlay in Kyleross. 9. Duncan Vic Allan Vic Ewen in Clunes. 10. I)uncan Roy Vic lain Vic Allister in Inverarkaig. 11. lain Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Achnasoul. 12. Allister Vic Conchie Ban in Criew. 13. Ewen Oig Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Muick. 14. Mulmor Vic lain Vic William in Caillach. 15. Lachlan Vic Coil Vic Gillonie in Keandpol. 16. John Vic Coil Vic Allister in Invermaillie. 17. Ewen Vic Conchie Vic lain in Lagganfearn. 18. Duncan Vic Even Vic Aonas in Glendessarie. 19. Donald Vic lain Dhu Vic Gillony in Glen-Pean. 20. John Vic Ewen in Murliggan. Sometimes people assume these are McAllisters, McEwens etc but this is a misunderstanding. Iain > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:19:38 -0700 > From: jerrykelly@att.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > Hi Iain, > > As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic > attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan son > of Niall O'Kennedy. > The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") > > >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was > the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way it > was recorded. In those documents, English officials were usually careful to get > the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the > crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the actions > of the individual. > > > I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in > Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and > it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about. If there are only a > few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down > within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is > needed for identification. > > The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of the > words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the > rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which > are influenced by the Irish custom). Take for example the well-known TV host on > TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n. (See > http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124 ) His name means 'Martin Tom of John' > (Martin Tom son of John). Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin > of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John). Either way, the 3 names make > clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. > > Best, > Jerry > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. > Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as > long as they got the right one they were after. > > > I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way > he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that > the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I > imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as > Kennedys. > > > Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic > speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I > know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in > laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would > have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother > gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the > other man's patronymic? > > > Iain > > > http://www.kennedydna.com > > > > > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > > 18th century. > > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > > > 'post 1743' > > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > > Kennedy his brother > > > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > > 578 > > > > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > > patronymics). > > > > > > > > John > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > >in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 218 ******************************************

For those interested in learning Scottish Gaelic: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/Foghlam/Tagh-Cursa/Cursaichean-Goirid/cursaichean_samhraidh_en.html Le gach dea-ghui/ Best, Jerry