Sandy, That's one of the great unknowns, I'm afraid. All I can say for certain is that the relationship is older than 300 years. However, you have identified the point of my research (off-modal matching), which you will see illustrated in the Grier Chart 1d (Excel) at http://www.shade.id.au/Grierson/GriersonDNA.htm. You will also find another "cousin" with similar attributes at 111 markers, and many more at 67 markers. I guess that the whole point of my research is to demonstrate that off-modal similarities are at least as important, if not more so, than GD in determining relationships - within the same haplogroup, of course, comparing haplotypes across haplogroups has very little application to family studies. Indeed, it seems to me that the principle application of MCRA calculations using GD is to establish time lines within groups that have been identified by off-modal matching as being related. What you will see is that a significant group within a one-name study can claim descent from one man over a sizeable distance - in this case, about 650 years by my calculation. If by chance 162252 Cool, 78699, KKE7R Greene, and 197983 Moseley happen to be reading this, they will find an intriguing connection to the Grierson family illustrated there. Indeed (and I have discussed this with David Wilson, who has given me some sound advice), it is interesting to note that it seems (on a small sample so far, awaiting a few Greers to test) about 10 off-modal markers exist in this family on top of the 14 off-modals from L21 which identify the M222 haplotype within R1b. On the face of it, this outcome is of the order of difference that led David to speculate that a downstream SNP within R1b (later identified as M222) existed. Hence my earlier question about using 23andMe data to identify similarities in the full genome, and Susan Milligan's subsequent comments. I am guessing about another mutation downstream of M222 here. Finally, as a comment on recent postings about Morrisons by Doug, may I point out to recent joiners that the "Niall" connection is entirely speculation with respect to the history of M222. If you carry a well documented surname related to NW Ireland, and you are relatively close to the M222 modal (which by weight of numbers is predominantly a NW Irish family modal, rather than a true M222 founder's modal), then you are probably related to whatever historic or pre-historic person founded that dynasty. But there is developing evidence that M222 is significantly older than the Christian era, there is no reason to assume that it is Irish by location, and there are family groups like mine that over a long period (as determined by GD) continue to carry a large number of matching off-modal markers, all of which suggests that there are multiple lines of descent from the M222 founder. That is, being M222 does not necessarily connect you to NW Ireland, and you should not assume that "Niall" is your ancestor. Cheers David Grierson On 20/07/2011 2:49 AM, Alexander Paterson wrote: > I've just had a closer look at the list, and the match between Grierson 7874 > and Grierson 117158 is quite enlightening. I know their paper trails are > excellent too. They have a GD of 15, but with 9 off-modal matches. > > I'd be most interested to know how closely they are related. > > Sandy >

Hi David I completely agree with your view on the importance of off-modal matches, although I'd express it a little differently. I think all three of GD, number of matches, and number of off-modal matches are useful, and their inter-relationship is valuable in examining possible kinship. That's what much of my research focuses on. I'd like, with your blessing, to use your Chart 1d as an example. Would it be OK for me to link to it from my site? I'm at http://www.tmrca.com/ One point you might find helpful is that DYS389ii is not actually a marker, but the sum of two other markers, and needs special treatment. If we denote the two single markers as 389i and 389b, we have 389i + 389b = 389ii Leaving 389ii as the labs report it can lead to a matching inaccuracy in comparing haplotypes. This is relevant in Grierson, because of the presence of 13-29 amongst Grier(son) but predominantly 14-29 amongst Greer. It is a little more accurate to consider them to be 13-16 for Grier(son). 14-15 for Greer. This leads to the conclusion that Grier(son) and Greer are slightly less closely related than suggested if you use the results as reported by the lab. Notwithstanding that, the abundance of off-modal matches is powerful evidence of a close kinship. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of J David Grierson Sent: 20 July 2011 03:12 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker results Sandy, That's one of the great unknowns, I'm afraid. All I can say for certain is that the relationship is older than 300 years. However, you have identified the point of my research (off-modal matching), which you will see illustrated in the Grier Chart 1d (Excel) at http://www.shade.id.au/Grierson/GriersonDNA.htm.