John I have been away and came back at the weekend. There are several questions I would like to ask you in relation to your comments below: 1. You say 'nothing can be said with authority about any of these surnames except they are all Scottish'. In relation to the Milliken/Milligan and Grieson/Griers, what do you mean by authority? 2. Are you proposing to write a paper that will include a brief history and origins of these surnames in Scotland and/or will the paper aim to evaluate, based on current understanding, the DNA relationship between all the surnames listed? On another note, for the benefit of those recently new to the forum and for those of us who have been around a long time, it might be helpful to provide some background to my previous email - the Map. In former discussions online and offline, it was recognized that in the southwest of Scotland there is nowhere near the number of sources (in fact, there is none) comparable with the Irish annals let alone the old genealogies found in the Books of Leinster, Lecan, Ballymote etc. For those studying Irish DNA, this has made it much easier to identify the origins of particular M222 type surnames, but a nightmare for those studying the M222 type surnames in the southwest of Scotland. To try and get round this problem, it was suggested sometime ago, that in relation to Scotland, it would be helpful if there was some kind of overview or coverage of the M222 surnames. This has never really happened as the task is probably too great for one person. In a previous email, I highlighted certain surnames found in the southwest of Scotland to have a pre-1600 origin with at least one or two DNA results with a paper trail. The reason for suggesting a pre-1600 list of surnames is simple, the Scots settlements in Ulster (1600s and onwards) and the later migrations of Irish into Scotland has unfortunately made it more difficult to study the origins of certain surnames, a good example, which you will be aware of, are the McCords. The surnames selected on the Map also have one or more DNA results confirmed M222. In relation to the Milliken/Milligans and Grierson/Griers there is a lot of information available, but I would like to stress, that long before the arrival of DNA Genealogy, it was already known, both these families or clans, shared a common link as early as 1400. My point is, DNA has never suggested they originate in Nithsdale, the written historic record, such as, charter evidence, crown and baronial records, local history and many other records such as wills and court records, have proved this. In the case of the Milliken/Milligans known as the Amuliganes, the written history is older and goes back the early 1200s. I have created a number of webpages including what I call the 'Calendars of Documents', as an online resource for those Millikens and Milligans researching their early history in Scotland. It was also created to prove that in Ireland, mainly in the old province of Ulster, surnames like Milliken and Milligan, and in some cases Mulligan, originated from the southwest of Scotland, where it evolved separately and independently of Ireland. The usual interpretation founded in Irish Surname books points to Co. Donegal. This has lead to a lot confusion over the years. In relation to the Griersons, there are two major sources, neither online, The Lag Charters 1400-1720 by Sir Philip J. Hamilton-Griersons published in 1958 by Scottish Record Society and R. C. Reid's 3 volume collection of Grierson papers/documents relating to a number of families in Dumfriesshire and Galloway, including copies of the original Lag Charters, which are now lost. This is an important collection and can only be accessed by visiting the Ewart Library in Dumfries. There are some online abstracts of the Lag Charters, but David Grierson is the best person to comment on these. When I first started communicating with David Grierson a number of years ago, the exchange of emails centered mainly on the origins of the Griersons of Lag, the chief of the surname in Nithsdale, and the claim made by several 19th century writers, the Griersons of Lag descend from the Clan MacGregor. This old chestnut has dogged Grierson history. The arrival of the DNA Genealogy, however, has challenged this claim and with other research in Nithsdale, demonstrates Gilbert Grierson 1st of Lag could not have been the second son of Malcolm MacGregor, who is said to have died in 1374. It also opened up another whole new angle, the realisation the Griersons and the Amuliganes shared a common link in the Rb1 haplogroup. With the advancement of DNA research, the possibility that we shared a common ancestry was further confirmed through the M222 SNP test. Now, offline, the question I am asking David is, do we share a common ancestor in Molegan, the ancestor of the Scottish Millikens/Milligans or is the link even earlier. This of course doesn't preclude the possibility there may have been incidents of non-parentage and given both families were inter-related through marriage early on and were neighbours, the probability is high. Sandy Paterson's recent piece of research on the 111 Mark test has been very helpful. He compares two Griersons with 4 Milligan/Milliken results (including my own). See below: Grierson 7874 Milligan 12068 13 7 Grierson 117158 Milligan 12068 16 6 Grierson 7874 Milligan 135550 16 7 Grierson 117158 Milligan 135550 19 7 Grierson 7874 Milligan 191000 21 3 Grierson 117158 Milligan 191000 24 3 Grierson 7874 Milliken 23702 24 3 Grierson 117158 Milliken 23702 27 2 Milligan 12068 descends directly from a Scottish family who settled in Co. Antrim early in the 1600s. An offline discussion about this test and Grierson 7874 might be helpful to clarify what the off-modal markers are in Sandy's approach. There are two Amuligane modals, no. 12068, 135550 & 1915550 come within the first and no. 23702 comes within the second. The question I have asked myself and others is, do these two modals share a common ancestor with Molegan? This question has not been answered, but I think the answer partly lies in DNA studies, which I am hoping both Sandy and Bill might be able to work out. I have calculated that Molegan lived at least 24 generations before present, based on an average 30 years per generation using the lineage of one man, whose ancestry can be traced back to 1500 and with gaps back to 1437 in Mid Nithsdale. Obviously, using the sum of 25 years per generation increases the range to just over 30 generations. This man comes within the second haplotype, not the first. No. 23702 is mine, and my result is close to his: at this time, he has not taken the 111 marker test with FTDNA only the 67 marker. There are two areas of interest then. 1. How are the Milliken/Milligans and Grierson/Griers related and what is the time-frame within which they are related? 2. Do the two Milliken/Milligan modals represent direct lineages from Molegan or is it possible, only one of them does and the other represents a kindred branch? The comparisons below seems to suggest the Milliken result is more distant from the Milligan 191000, which also has a paper trail back to Mid Nithsdale. Milligan 12068 Milligan 135550 13 5 Milligan 12068 Milligan 191000 16 3 Milligan 12068 Milliken 23702 23 1 Milligan 135550 Milligan 12068 13 5 Milligan 135550 Milligan 191000 17 4 Milligan 135550 Milliken 23702 26 2 Milliken 23702 Milligan 12068 23 1 Milliken 23702 Milligan 135550 26 2 Milliken 23702 Milligan 191000 29 0 As you can see from my comments in this email, there is a mutual benefit for the Milliken/Milligans and Grierson/Griers to continue the search to establish how we are related and the time-frame within which we are related. However, I am not sure to what ends your paper is serving! If there is a wider interest in the surnames listed on the Map I sent, I would welcome this, as there is much to unravel and much yet to learn about the M222 clade in the southwest of Scotland. In relation to the Cowans you ask the question do the they belong in the Grier-Milliken Group. The original suggestion stemmed from a series offline emails, which suggested a possible link with the McCords. I have since been corresponding with a chap who descends from a Cowan family in Ayrshire, and he has paper trail that goes back to a family from the parish of Dalrymple. I was at the National Archives of Scotland on Monday and found more material that will take his history further back. Since the last email I sent on the McCords, I have finished my paper on them. I also plan to add the surname MacAdam to the Map. Allene sent more information on a family who trace their lineage back to the McCaddams of Waterhead in the parish of Carsphairn; their history can be traced with certainty back to the early 1500s. Others have sent emails, I will reply shortly. Regards Alan In a message dated 22/07/2011 04:03:11 GMT Standard Time, Lochlan@aol.com writes: I'm working on some surname identifications for a paper I'm writing with Bill Howard. I find I really can't say much about many of these surnames but I know people have been working on them on this list. Can anyone put a little more flesh on these bare bones? Do the Cowans belong in the Grier-Millikin group? Greer/Grierson McAdams McCord Millikin.Milligan Nothing can be said with authority about any of these surnames except they are all Scottish. DNA studies on the Greer/Grierson site suggest these families are related and originated in the Nith valley of lowland Scotland. Some early mention of the families goes back to the 1200s in Galloway. Ewing/Ewin Ewings in the project mostly descend from ancestors who came from Scotland to Donegal and Ulster during the Plantation years but they do have matches from Scotland as well. The surname is thought to have originated in the vicinity of Loch Lomond in lowland Scotland. The Ewings in Donegal are documented by listings in the 1630 Muster Rolls, the 1654 Civil Survey, the 1665 Hearth Money Rolls and Presbyterian church registers for Burt congregation. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message