Hi Iain, As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan son of Niall O'Kennedy. The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way it was recorded. In those documents, English officials were usually careful to get the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the actions of the individual. I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about. If there are only a few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is needed for identification. The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of the words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which are influenced by the Irish custom). Take for example the well-known TV host on TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n. (See http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124 ) His name means 'Martin Tom of John' (Martin Tom son of John). Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John). Either way, the 3 names make clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as long as they got the right one they were after. I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as Kennedys. Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the other man's patronymic? Iain http://www.kennedydna.com > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > 18th century. > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > 'post 1743' > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > Kennedy his brother > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > 578 > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > patronymics). > > > > John > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jerry, I would say that in Scotland it is an unusual form, most records either have a modern forename/surname or a multi-part patronymic but rarely does the latter have a modern surname stuck on the end. The Kilmallie rental list that follows sums up how names operated, the chief guys are showing the clan name Cameron and all the lesser men just have patronymics. Given the control of the dominant clan it is most likely that all these would have been considered 'Camerons'. But in Kilmallie in this period the concept of a surname didn't really exist which is why sometimes if a person moved out of the area it was possible for his surname to change. RENTALS OF GLENLUIE AND LOCH ARKAIG IN 1642.NAMES. 1. Ewen Cameron of Lochiel in Moy. 2. Donald Cameron, Tutor of Lochiel. 3. Ewen Cameron, alias Bodach in Erracht. 4. Ewen Vic Allister More. 5. Donald Vic Coull Vic Allister in Barr. 6. John Dhu Vic Coil Oig in Strone. 7. John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic Conchie in Inveruiskavullen. 8. Duncan Macmartin of Letterfinlay in Kyleross. 9. Duncan Vic Allan Vic Ewen in Clunes. 10. I)uncan Roy Vic lain Vic Allister in Inverarkaig. 11. lain Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Achnasoul. 12. Allister Vic Conchie Ban in Criew. 13. Ewen Oig Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Muick. 14. Mulmor Vic lain Vic William in Caillach. 15. Lachlan Vic Coil Vic Gillonie in Keandpol. 16. John Vic Coil Vic Allister in Invermaillie. 17. Ewen Vic Conchie Vic lain in Lagganfearn. 18. Duncan Vic Even Vic Aonas in Glendessarie. 19. Donald Vic lain Dhu Vic Gillony in Glen-Pean. 20. John Vic Ewen in Murliggan. Sometimes people assume these are McAllisters, McEwens etc but this is a misunderstanding. Iain > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:19:38 -0700 > From: jerrykelly@att.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > Hi Iain, > > As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic > attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan son > of Niall O'Kennedy. > The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") > > >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was > the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way it > was recorded. In those documents, English officials were usually careful to get > the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the > crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the actions > of the individual. > > > I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in > Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and > it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about. If there are only a > few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down > within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is > needed for identification. > > The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of the > words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the > rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which > are influenced by the Irish custom). Take for example the well-known TV host on > TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n. (See > http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124 ) His name means 'Martin Tom of John' > (Martin Tom son of John). Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin > of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John). Either way, the 3 names make > clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. > > Best, > Jerry > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. > Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as > long as they got the right one they were after. > > > I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way > he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that > the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I > imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as > Kennedys. > > > Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic > speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I > know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in > laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would > have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother > gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the > other man's patronymic? > > > Iain > > > http://www.kennedydna.com > > > > > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > > 18th century. > > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > > > 'post 1743' > > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > > Kennedy his brother > > > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > > 578 > > > > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > > patronymics). > > > > > > > > John > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > >in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Iain, Just out of curiousity what does the "Lain" mean in "John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic Conchie in Inveruiskavullen." Is that Lain? Chris Lane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iain Kennedy" <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 5:01:02 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' Hi Jerry, I would say that in Scotland it is an unusual form, most records either have a modern forename/surname or a multi-part patronymic but rarely does the latter have a modern surname stuck on the end. The Kilmallie rental list that follows sums up how names operated, the chief guys are showing the clan name Cameron and all the lesser men just have patronymics. Given the control of the dominant clan it is most likely that all these would have been considered 'Camerons'. But in Kilmallie in this period the concept of a surname didn't really exist which is why sometimes if a person moved out of the area it was possible for his surname to change. RENTALS OF GLENLUIE AND LOCH ARKAIG IN 1642.NAMES. 1. Ewen Cameron of Lochiel in Moy. 2. Donald Cameron, Tutor of Lochiel. 3. Ewen Cameron, alias Bodach in Erracht. 4. Ewen Vic Allister More. 5. Donald Vic Coull Vic Allister in Barr. 6. John Dhu Vic Coil Oig in Strone. 7. John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic Conchie in Inveruiskavullen. 8. Duncan Macmartin of Letterfinlay in Kyleross. 9. Duncan Vic Allan Vic Ewen in Clunes. 10. I)uncan Roy Vic lain Vic Allister in Inverarkaig. 11. lain Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Achnasoul. 12. Allister Vic Conchie Ban in Criew. 13. Ewen Oig Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Muick. 14. Mulmor Vic lain Vic William in Caillach. 15. Lachlan Vic Coil Vic Gillonie in Keandpol. 16. John Vic Coil Vic Allister in Invermaillie. 17. Ewen Vic Conchie Vic lain in Lagganfearn. 18. Duncan Vic Even Vic Aonas in Glendessarie. 19. Donald Vic lain Dhu Vic Gillony in Glen-Pean. 20. John Vic Ewen in Murliggan. Sometimes people assume these are McAllisters, McEwens etc but this is a misunderstanding. Iain   > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:19:38 -0700 > From: jerrykelly@att.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > Hi Iain, > > As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic > attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan son > of Niall O'Kennedy. > The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") > > >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was > the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way it > was recorded.  In those documents, English officials were usually careful to get > the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the > crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the actions > of the individual.   > >   > I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in > Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and > it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about.  If there are only a > few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down > within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is > needed for identification. > > The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of the > words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the > rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which > are influenced by the Irish custom).  Take for example the well-known TV host on > TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n.  (See > http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124  )  His name means 'Martin Tom of John' > (Martin Tom son of John).  Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin > of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John).  Either way, the 3 names make > clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. > > Best, > Jerry > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. > Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as > long as they got the right one they were after. > > > I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way > he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that > the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I > imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as > Kennedys. > > > Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic > speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I > know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in > laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would > have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother > gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the > other man's patronymic? > > > Iain > > > http://www.kennedydna.com > > > > > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > >   > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > >   > > He makes some interesting observations.  These caught my eye: > >   > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > >  18th century. > > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern  surnames > > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > >   > >   > >  This one is strange (to  me at least). > >   > > 'post 1743' > > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and  John McRory > > Kennedy his brother > > > > This is classic confusing patronymic  material! But there is logic in the > > names, as John is the son of Rory and his  brother is the grandson of Neill. > >   > > Would anyone guess the  following person is really a Kennedy? > >   > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan,  decree against him, > > 578 > >   > >   > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but   > > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the   > > patronymics).   > >   > >   > >   > > John > > > >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > >in the subject and the body of the message >                           > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >  R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message                                                  R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Chris, afraid not, they are actually 'Iain' as in my name (one of many Scots Gaelic forms of John). A lot of Americans seem unfamiliar with this name and frequently address me as 'Lian' or 'Lain' though! In this case the wrong character has crept into the transcriptions. Iain > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 21:29:22 +0000 > From: cjl315@comcast.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > > > Iain, > > > > Just out of curiousity what does the "Lain" mean in "John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic > Conchie in Inveruiskavullen." Is that Lain? > > > > Chris Lane > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Iain Kennedy" <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 5:01:02 PM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > > Hi Jerry, > > I would say that in Scotland it is an unusual form, most records either have a modern forename/surname or a multi-part patronymic but rarely does the latter have a modern surname stuck on the end. The Kilmallie rental list that follows sums up how names operated, the chief guys are showing the clan name Cameron and all the lesser men just have patronymics. Given the control of the dominant clan it is most likely that all these would have been considered 'Camerons'. But in Kilmallie in this period the concept of a surname didn't really exist which is why sometimes if a person moved out of the area it was possible for his surname to change. > > RENTALS OF GLENLUIE AND LOCH ARKAIG IN > 1642.NAMES. > 1. Ewen Cameron of Lochiel in > Moy. > 2. Donald Cameron, Tutor of Lochiel. > 3. Ewen Cameron, alias Bodach in > Erracht. > 4. Ewen Vic Allister More. > 5. Donald Vic Coull Vic Allister in > Barr. > 6. John Dhu Vic Coil Oig in Strone. > 7. John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic > Conchie in Inveruiskavullen. > 8. Duncan Macmartin of Letterfinlay in Kyleross. > > 9. Duncan Vic Allan Vic Ewen in Clunes. > 10. I)uncan Roy Vic lain Vic > Allister in Inverarkaig. > 11. lain Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Achnasoul. > 12. > Allister Vic Conchie Ban in Criew. > 13. Ewen Oig Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in > Muick. > 14. Mulmor Vic lain Vic William in Caillach. > 15. Lachlan Vic Coil > Vic Gillonie in Keandpol. > 16. John Vic Coil Vic Allister in > Invermaillie. > 17. Ewen Vic Conchie Vic lain in Lagganfearn. > 18. Duncan Vic > Even Vic Aonas in Glendessarie. > 19. Donald Vic lain Dhu Vic Gillony in > Glen-Pean. > 20. John Vic Ewen in Murliggan. > Sometimes people assume these are McAllisters, McEwens etc but this is a misunderstanding. > > Iain > > > > > > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:19:38 -0700 > > From: jerrykelly@att.net > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > > > Hi Iain, > > > > As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic > > attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan son > > of Niall O'Kennedy. > > The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") > > > > >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was > > the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way it > > was recorded. In those documents, English officials were usually careful to get > > the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the > > crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the actions > > of the individual. > > > > > > I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in > > Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and > > it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about. If there are only a > > few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down > > within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is > > needed for identification. > > > > The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of the > > words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the > > rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which > > are influenced by the Irish custom). Take for example the well-known TV host on > > TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n. (See > > http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124 ) His name means 'Martin Tom of John' > > (Martin Tom son of John). Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin > > of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John). Either way, the 3 names make > > clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. > > > > Best, > > Jerry > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > > > Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. > > Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as > > long as they got the right one they were after. > > > > > > I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The way > > he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that > > the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I > > imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as > > Kennedys. > > > > > > Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic > > speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I > > know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in > > laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he would > > have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother > > gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of the > > other man's patronymic? > > > > > > Iain > > > > > > http://www.kennedydna.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > > > > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > > > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > > > > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > > > > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > > > 18th century. > > > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > > > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > > > > > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > > > > > 'post 1743' > > > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > > > Kennedy his brother > > > > > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > > > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > > > > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > > > > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > > > 578 > > > > > > > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > > > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > > > patronymics). > > > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > > >in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > > in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Wow! Many thanks, Iain. That certainly is different from what I'm used to in the Irish records. Le gach dea-ghui/ Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 5:01:02 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' Hi Jerry, I would say that in Scotland it is an unusual form, most records either have a modern forename/surname or a multi-part patronymic but rarely does the latter have a modern surname stuck on the end. The Kilmallie rental list that follows sums up how names operated, the chief guys are showing the clan name Cameron and all the lesser men just have patronymics. Given the control of the dominant clan it is most likely that all these would have been considered 'Camerons'. But in Kilmallie in this period the concept of a surname didn't really exist which is why sometimes if a person moved out of the area it was possible for his surname to change. RENTALS OF GLENLUIE AND LOCH ARKAIG IN 1642.NAMES. 1. Ewen Cameron of Lochiel in Moy. 2. Donald Cameron, Tutor of Lochiel. 3. Ewen Cameron, alias Bodach in Erracht. 4. Ewen Vic Allister More. 5. Donald Vic Coull Vic Allister in Barr. 6. John Dhu Vic Coil Oig in Strone. 7. John Vic Coil Vic lain Vic Conchie in Inveruiskavullen. 8. Duncan Macmartin of Letterfinlay in Kyleross. 9. Duncan Vic Allan Vic Ewen in Clunes. 10. I)uncan Roy Vic lain Vic Allister in Inverarkaig. 11. lain Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Achnasoul. 12. Allister Vic Conchie Ban in Criew. 13. Ewen Oig Vic Conchie Vic Ewen in Muick. 14. Mulmor Vic lain Vic William in Caillach. 15. Lachlan Vic Coil Vic Gillonie in Keandpol. 16. John Vic Coil Vic Allister in Invermaillie. 17. Ewen Vic Conchie Vic lain in Lagganfearn. 18. Duncan Vic Even Vic Aonas in Glendessarie. 19. Donald Vic lain Dhu Vic Gillony in Glen-Pean. 20. John Vic Ewen in Murliggan. Sometimes people assume these are McAllisters, McEwens etc but this is a misunderstanding. Iain > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 11:19:38 -0700 > From: jerrykelly@att.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics - 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' > > Hi Iain, > > As you know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' is a pretty good English phonetic > attempt at Niall mac Eoghain mhic Ne/ill Ui/ Cinne/ide = Niall son of Eoghan >son > > of Niall O'Kennedy. > The English writer nailed the sound of mhic ("vic") and Ne/ill ("Naill") > > >From what I've seen of early 17th century English reports in Ireland, this was > > the typical way a person would give his/her name, or at least the typical way >it > > was recorded. In those documents, English officials were usually careful to >get > > the surnames in order to figure out patterns of loyalty and disloyalty to the > crown, or to know which other family members to hold responsible for the >actions > > of the individual. > > > I can't advise on how 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' would be rendered in > Scottish Gaelic today, but this is still perfect naming practice in Irish, and > it definitely makes clear which Niall we're talking about. If there are only a > > few surnames in a given area, and with so few first names being passed down > within families due to the Gaelic naming pattern, the miniature genealogy is > needed for identification. > > The shorthand version of this (without use of the surname and without use of >the > > words mac or ini/on - 'son' or 'daughter', but still a genealogy) is still the > rule in Irish-speaking areas (and even adjoining English-speaking areas which > are influenced by the Irish custom). Take for example the well-known TV host >on > > TG4 by the name of Ma/irti/n Tom Shea/ini/n. (See > http://www.tg4.ie/index.php?id=124 ) His name means 'Martin Tom of John' > (Martin Tom son of John). Or, if he's mixed English and Irish practice, Martin > > of Tom of John (Martin son of Tom son of John). Either way, the 3 names make > clear which Martin we're talking about even without knowing his surname. > > Best, > Jerry > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, July 21, 2011 4:09:49 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > Certainly all the locals would have known that the MacUalraigs were Kennedys. > Officials from outside the area may not have done but probably didn't care as > long as they got the right one they were after. > > > I asked the archivist at Inverness Archives the question about identity. The >way > > he explained it was that these people would have carried an oral tradition that > > the two names were interchangeable. That still seems a bit strange since I > imagine whole generations might have gone by without anyone recording them as > Kennedys. > > > Another factor is that often the clerk was not only not local but not a Gaelic > speaker/writer. So some considerable mangling may be taking place. For all I > know, 'Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy' might have been rolling on the floor in > laughter if he had seen his name written like that. I am sceptical that he >would > > have literally given that to an official as his name. More likely his brother > gave his name as John McRory Kennedy and so they stuck Kennedy on the end of >the > > other man's patronymic? > > > Iain > > > http://www.kennedydna.com > > > > > > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 22:57:16 -0400 > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] New Tactics > > > > I just read through some of Iain Kennedy's web pages. > > > > _http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm_ > > (http://www.kennedydna.com/Seventeenth_century_Kennedy_resources.htm) > > > > He makes some interesting observations. These caught my eye: > > > > 1. Rannoch men were mostly using patronymics and not surnames well into the > > 18th century. > > 2. The people of the Appin of Dull switched over to modern surnames > > sometime earlier, by 1660 at the latest. > > > > > > This one is strange (to me at least). > > > > 'post 1743' > > Camiserichbeg features Niell McEwan vicNaill Kennedy and John McRory > > Kennedy his brother > > > > This is classic confusing patronymic material! But there is logic in the > > names, as John is the son of Rory and his brother is the grandson of Neill. > > > > Would anyone guess the following person is really a Kennedy? > > > > McEwin VcInduy alias McCorig of Leonachinbeg, Duncan, decree against him, > > 578 > > > > > > My question to Iain is did these men in Scotland have fixed surnames but > > just didn't use them (they seem to pop up now and then in between the > > patronymics). > > > > > > > > John > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > > >in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message