Bill, The problem I have with your reasoning (or possibly your explanation of your reasoning) is your 73% or more test. If, in determining the level of 73%, you took haplotypes that had been tested M222+, and found that at least 73% of their markers matched the modal of those that had been tested M222+, then I would agree your logic. It is not clear to me though that this is the case. Could you clarify this? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Howard Sent: 08 July 2011 20:04 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] There is no practical difference between M222+ and M222- Steve, Since I cannot distinguish the two so-called groups of M222 from each other, and since all the haplotypes I include in the M222 database have at least 27 DYS modals that agree with the 37 DYS modal values, I do not deliberately include ones who are too far from the self-defined limits (above) of M222. I am doing nothing for convenience. Those haplotypes have to meet the 73% or more test. The answer to your other point(s) is that I do not find the two groups to be operationally distinguishable. - Bye from Bill Howard