In a message dated 6/12/2011 5:34:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jerrykelly@att.net writes: The thing that made me notice this at all was Byrne's discussion of the Fe/ni on p. 106 of his book. As he notes there, the following statement was intended to describe Ireland in prehistoric times. It is the beginning of an 8th century A.D. saga preserved in a legal text compiled by an Uí Néill breitheamh ('jurist'): Batar trí prímcheinéla i nHére, .i. Féini 7 Ulaith 7 Gáilni .i. Laigin. (Byrne, p. 106) There were three primary kinship-groups in Ireland, i.e., the Féini, the Ulaidh, and the Gáilni, i.e., the Laighin. That's an interesting look at the Feni of Irish history. I wonder if this passage predates the development of the Milesian legends? I don't think there's any version of that prior to the Book of Leinster (c. 1170 AD) although Laud 610 contains a rudimentary version (c. 1000) which just talks about the Gaedhil leaving in ships from the land of the Amazons. Hard to say much about that though. It's never been translated and the editor's notes don't give much of a clue. The list above would seem to ignore the Eoghanachta. They too cannot be identified in Ptolemy's map. I don't think the Lagin can be either unless one equates them with the Brigantes. I hadn't thought about the derivation of Feni from Fenius farsaid of Scythia but the Milesian legends definitely say that. And in the Milesian legends Fenius farsaid would have been the ancestor of all the above three groups. As I recall but would have to check the root ven was common in many place names in Celtic Gaul. John

Hi John,   Apologies for delay in responding.  Related to this passage written by an Ui/ Ne/ill breitheamh in the 8th century: Batar trí prímcheinéla i nHére, .i. Féini 7 Ulaith 7 Gáilni .i. Laigin. (Byrne, p. 106) There were three primary kinship-groups in Ireland, i.e., the Féini, the Ulaidh, and the Gáilni, i.e., the Laighin.   Most of the Milesian pseudo-history appears to have been developed from the 7th to 12th centuries (with some small refinements later on, like getting agreement on Fe/inius Farsaid's exact distance from Adam, as we saw in an earlier post).  As you know, the passage above directly contradicts the Milesian story.  So it looks like it recalls an older, more reliable, tradition.   As you point out, it doesn't mention the Eoghanachta.  I suspect that's because it's supposed to represent ethnicity as it stood at the end of the prehistoric / pre-Christian period, and therefore directly before the rise of the Eoghanachta, whose own origin-story is self-consciously Christian (revelation of the site of Cashel by angels to the founder of the Eoghanachta dynasty, the Eoghanachta blessed by God, etc.)   Based on the role of the Corcu Loi/gde in early Eoghanachta stories and Munster history, I'm guessing that DNA may soon reveal that the Eoghanachta are a branch of the Corcu Loi/gde of the Sen-E/rna Muman ('Old E/rainn of Munster'), but that's only a guess.   Good point you made about the Laighin not being mentioned by Ptolemy.  But my impression is that most scholars agree with O'Rahilly that the Bairrche or Ui/ Bairrche (descendants of Bairrche and Brigid = 'Barr-Rigid') are the Irish branch of the Brigantes (again, 'Barr-Righ' as root).  The Bairrche eventually got a Laighin pedigree, but it doesn't look like the Bairrche were originally Laighin ('Broad-Spears').  Le gach dea-ghui/ Best, Jerry   Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went R222? - help from Ptolemy? In a message dated 6/12/2011 5:34:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  jerrykelly@att.net writes: The  thing that made me notice this at all was Byrne's discussion of the Fe/ni on  p. 106 of his book.  As he notes there, the following statement was  intended to describe Ireland in  prehistoric times.  It is the  beginning of an 8th century  A.D. saga preserved in a legal text  compiled by an Uí Néill breitheamh  ('jurist'): Batar trí  prímcheinéla i nHére, .i. Féini 7 Ulaith 7  Gáilni .i. Laigin.  (Byrne, p. 106) There were three primary  kinship-groups in  Ireland, i.e., the Féini, the Ulaidh, and the Gáilni, i.e.,  the  Laighin. That's an interesting look at the Feni of Irish history.  I wonder  if this passage predates the development of the Milesian legends?  I don't  think there's any version of that prior to the Book of Leinster (c. 1170 AD)  although Laud 610 contains a rudimentary version (c. 1000) which just  talks about the Gaedhil leaving in ships from the land of the Amazons.  Hard to say much about that though.  It's never been translated and the  editor's notes don't give much of a clue. The list above would seem to ignore the Eoghanachta.  They too cannot  be identified in Ptolemy's map.  I don't think the Lagin can be either  unless one equates them with the Brigantes. I hadn't thought about the derivation of Feni from Fenius farsaid of  Scythia but the Milesian legends definitely say that.  And in the Milesian  legends Fenius farsaid would have been the ancestor of all the above three  groups. As I recall but would have to check the root ven was common in many place  names in Celtic Gaul. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message