In a message dated 6/8/2011 11:46:23 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jerrykelly@att.net writes: So, we can discard any of those as the original name of any Celtic tribe who might have invaded. Da/l Chuinn isn't on Ptolemy's map, but the Da/l Chuinn are a branch of another people called the Fe/ini. Earlier spellings - Fe/ni, Fe/ne, etc. The etymological affinity of the name "Fe/ni" to the name of the Veneti, the tragic Gaulish tribe of Armorica, has long attracted attention. Jerry, a couple of questions. What establishes the Dal Cuinn as a branch of the Feni? Are we talking here of the Fenians of Irish mythology? Is there any dating for this cycle of Irish mythology? <But if we go back earlier, we find in 8th century documents that a distinction was made between the original Fe/ini and all the other Fe/ini-come-latelies. It appears that the original Fe/ini, as far as we can tell from the earliest tales and law-texts, consisted solely of the Da/l Chuinn, i.e., the Connachta and the Ui/ Ne/ill. What eighth century document is this? Is this what you're referring to in the firstJoh paragraph quoted? <The Vennicni sojourn on the west coast, and then, in order, the Rhobogdi towards the east. Is there anything there that could possibly, etymologically, develop into Fe/ni over time? Wish I were expert at the development of Common Celtic into P-Celtic and Q-Celtic, but I think there's an inviting possibility right there which has been overlooked. If you're talking about the Venicnii here we've discussed that as a possibility before. I always thought it odd that O'Rahilly ignored this name in his discussion of Ptolemy's map. You also have a similar name in lowland Scotland (Venicones). I'm open to the idea that the Dal Cuinn had an earlier tribal name in Ireland. Although it is possible to see the root Conn in the Venicone tribal name. Perhaps even in Venicnii if the name was corrupted. O'Rahilly's analysis of the Milesian scheme gets too much attention in my opinion. He only used it to attempt to show how the myth makers used traditional legendary material to stitch together a unified history of Ireland. He clearly did not take it seriously beyond that, mainly demonstrating that the Fir Bolg (Belgae) were in Ireland long before many other tribal groups. John

Hi John, I'll work on this over the next few days. Best in the meantime, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 6:39:00 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went R222? - help from Ptolemy? In a message dated 6/8/2011 11:46:23 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jerrykelly@att.net writes: So, we can discard any of those as the original name of any Celtic tribe who might have invaded. Da/l Chuinn isn't on Ptolemy's map, but the Da/l Chuinn are a branch of another people called the Fe/ini. Earlier spellings - Fe/ni, Fe/ne, etc. The etymological affinity of the name "Fe/ni" to the name of the Veneti, the tragic Gaulish tribe of Armorica, has long attracted attention. Jerry, a couple of questions. What establishes the Dal Cuinn as a branch of the Feni? Are we talking here of the Fenians of Irish mythology? Is there any dating for this cycle of Irish mythology? <But if we go back earlier, we find in 8th century documents that a distinction was made between the original Fe/ini and all the other Fe/ini-come-latelies. It appears that the original Fe/ini, as far as we can tell from the earliest tales and law-texts, consisted solely of the Da/l Chuinn, i.e., the Connachta and the Ui/ Ne/ill. What eighth century document is this? Is this what you're referring to in the firstJoh paragraph quoted? <The Vennicni sojourn on the west coast, and then, in order, the Rhobogdi towards the east. Is there anything there that could possibly, etymologically, develop into Fe/ni over time? Wish I were expert at the development of Common Celtic into P-Celtic and Q-Celtic, but I think there's an inviting possibility right there which has been overlooked. If you're talking about the Venicnii here we've discussed that as a possibility before. I always thought it odd that O'Rahilly ignored this name in his discussion of Ptolemy's map. You also have a similar name in lowland Scotland (Venicones). I'm open to the idea that the Dal Cuinn had an earlier tribal name in Ireland. Although it is possible to see the root Conn in the Venicone tribal name. Perhaps even in Venicnii if the name was corrupted. O'Rahilly's analysis of the Milesian scheme gets too much attention in my opinion. He only used it to attempt to show how the myth makers used traditional legendary material to stitch together a unified history of Ireland. He clearly did not take it seriously beyond that, mainly demonstrating that the Fir Bolg (Belgae) were in Ireland long before many other tribal groups. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message