Hi Sandy, Aha! Now I understand what you mean. But the anglicization "Cain" is a misspelling of Ó Catháin ('Grandson of Little Battle'). It only looks like the Irish word cáin ('law' or, in Modern Irish, 'tax') when it's misspelled this way. Meanwhile, McCann is an anglicization / misspelling of Mac Cana - 'Son of Wolf Cub'. (Wolves were hugely admired in Gaelic society yielding the surnames Ó Faoláin, Ó Coileáin, Ó Faolchon, etc.) Again, no relationship to the English word 'law'. Go raibh sé seo cabhrach. / Hope this helps. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 3:11 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS What I find interesting is that with the extension to 111-markers, the McHenrys and the Cains & variants are no longer obvious kin. The Cain and Kane in the M222 project plus my haplotype all have DYS439=13 DYS570=18 DYS446=14+ DYS715=23 DYS513=14 DYS643=11 The DYS643=11 looks particularly rare, and if you have a look at L21+ you'll see that it shows very little dispersion from 10, which is overwhelmingly modal in both M222 and L21. In the O'Cathain group of Ulster Heritage, only a solitary Cain has the above, with Devenny, McHenry and Slavin not matching any of the 68-111 marker ones. Slaven though, matches two other off-modal markers with me in the 68-111 marker group. So to me, it looks like the Cain/Kane/McCann grouping in Barry's group are going to end up distinctly different to all other surnames, yet they match me on some unusual markers. So I'm still batting on the side of Cain = Law Cain = Lagman Kane Laumon McCann Lamont Both descended from Orcanus. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 25 June 2011 02:49 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS I haven't looked at those 111 marker results lately myself. There are 59 results showing now - a few more if you count the non or pre M222 sections. I looked at your closest matches in the 111 marker section. Interesting. Two Kanes and a Slevins. But then you've mentioned those matches before. I looked at the Kains/Cains in several different projects, including that of Barra McCain, who first identified the DNA of O Cathain of Ulster. On a different O Cathain site at FTDNA it seems there are some Cain/Kane variants that do not belong in the cluster. The Ulster O Cathains as identified by Barra always cluster nicely around several McHenry samples, a related Irish sept said to have split off the O Cathain line in about 1400 AD. The FTDNA site also has a McCloskey sample that matches nicely although it's only 25 markers. McCloseky is another sept said to descend from the Ulster O Cathains. The O Cathains were a Cenel Eoghain sept, said to descend from the line of the High Kings of Ireland prior to the O'Neills and MacLochlainns. How might the Slevins fit into this picture? According to MacLysaght, the surname Slevin/Sleven (O Sleibhin) was a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in Ulster; an old ecclesiastical family in Fermanagh. Some later settled in Westmeath in the 17th century. He adds more in More Irish Families. "More Irish Families" by Dr. Edward MacLysaght: (O) Slevin, Slavin: Both the forms Slevin and Slavin are found today in about equal numbers, chiefly in Ulster, 18 of the 25 births registered for the name in Matheson's test year being in that province. O Sleibhin, which is said to be derived from the Irish word 'sliabh' (a mountain) was the name of a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in Ulster, famous in the early midiaeval period as poets. Giolla Comhghaill O Sleibhin, chief bard of Ulster, was associated with King Malachy in the northern resistance to Brian Boru; other Ulster poets of the name about the same time are mentioned by the Four Masters, as well as one who was chief poet of Oriel in 1168. Though seldom met with in historical records after that time, they evidently did not sink into obscurity since as late as 1514 we find in the Ormond Deeds a judgement of the Liberty Court of Tipperary in which Terrelagh O'Slevin, together with an O'Donnell, is described as "pure Irish of the Irish nation" when charged with acquisition of lands contrary to statute; and again in the Survey of Co. Fermanagh made in 1603 Munter Slevins are cited as "carbes" (coarbs) of Killtyerman in the barony of Lurg. I myself have never been able to find the source of MacLysaght's statement that the Sleibhins were Cenel Eoghain (or at least some of them were). But given the fact that they are M222 and match the O Cathains of Londonderry Co. in Ireland it seems possible this is true. So what does that portend for a Patterson who is really a Lamont? It's extremely difficult not to think of the tale of the O Cathains bride in this context. The clan Donald, Volume 1 By Archibald Macdonald "The lady's portion took the form of 140 men out of every surname in O'Cathain's territory, and the descendants of those who left representatives are known to this day in the Highlands as "tochradh nighean a' Chathanaich" - the dowry of O'Cathain's daughter. The name of some of these immigrants have come down by tradition. Two families, the Munroes, so called because they came from the innermost Roe water in the County of Derry, their name being originally O'Millan, and the Roses of Kilravoxk, rose to territorial distinction in the North Highlands. The other names preserved by Hugh Macdonald are the Fearns, Dingwalls, Beatons, Macphersons, Bulikes of Cathiness, while the MS of 1700 mentions, in addition to the foregoing, Dunbar, Maelinen, and the MacGilleglasses. Divided Gaels: Gaelic cultural identities in Scotland and Ireland, c.1200-c.1650 By Wilson McLeod Marriags of Irishwomen to Scottish chiefs were also arranged, notably the celebrated union (c. 1300) between Aongus Oge Mac Domhnaill (+ c. 1329) and Aine, daugher of Cu Miaghe na nGall O Cathain of the Ciannachta in modern cdo. Derry, for which a number of learned men were provided as dowry (known as 'tochardh nighean a' Chathanaich' in later Scottish tradition), whose progeny went on to become some of the leading lights of late medieval Gaelic Scotland. Note in this material the surname Dunbar. There is a small group of Dunbars who are M222 and do not match the great majority of other Dunbars in the databases. In phylogenetic trees of various kinds they routinely cluster near the McLaughlins and Dohertys of Ireland. The McLaughlins of Ireland (at least the Donegal variety) were also Cenel Eoghain. It's interesting to note that within the line of the High Kings of Ireland the O Cathains were one of the closet relatives of the McLaughlins of Donegal, splitting off the main line in about 700 AD. The McLaughlins appeared from the same line about two centuries later. Yet they do not match in DNA except for the fact that both are M222. The original tale of the O Cathain bride came from two sources, the 17th century History of the McDonalds by Hugh McDonald and the Book of Clanranald of about the same date. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message