[Didn't we have a conversation once in which you stated your simulation studies proved that haplotypes would have mutated away from each other prior to 1300 AD. and would be unrecognizable today? I remember this clearly because I brought up the case of the Leinster Kavanaghs and Kinsellas, both of whom still match yet had a common ancestor ca. 1200 AD.] I remember it, but only vaguely. But simulation studies can only show what is possible. The fact that something is possible doesn't mean that it always happens. I doubt whether I would ever have made the statement that all haplotypes would have mutated away from each other prior to 1300 AD and would be unrecognisable today. I have matches with a number of the surnames that you mention. Devlin springs to mind but as you say, there are not many Devlin haplotypes around and they don't seem to have a surname project. I see Devenney's full results for markers 68-111 have arrived. Over 111 markers I am a GD of 19 with him with 2 off-modal matches. That strikes me as very distant. Gormley, Quinn and one or two Campbells are closer, I think. Flaherty, McMurtry, M222 Burks, Fogarty. Close-ish but few haplotypes. McHarg is close, but not McHargue or Meharg. Dougan, but only one. Then, out of the blue, a 37/37 match with a Shanks. Strange. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 30 June 2011 00:26 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS In a message dated 6/29/2011 4:24:15 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: The Donegal McLaughlains and the M222 Cains (who I think are the group who you refer to as the M222 O Cathains from Ulster). Logic suggests therefore that either the Donegal McLaughlains are not from Donegal, or the M222 Cains are not from Ulster. There are enough similarities between McLaughlins and Dohertys and a few other Donegal surnames to establish a connection with Ireland. So I think we can lay that first possibility to rest. I myself have wondered why the Ulster O Cathains as identified by Barra McCain don't resemble McLaughlins more closely. The split comes sometime 750 AD. And most of the McLaughlins share a common ancestor sometime in the 1300s. The closest relatives within the Cenel Eoghain to the O Cathains were the Muinter Birne, well known in Ulster history. The major surname associated with the Muinter Birn was Murphy. I think there are others but I'd have to check. I know I've seen some M222 Murphys in the databases but don't know anything about them. Do the Murphys match the O Cathains? Would anyone expect them to? Didn't we have a conversation once in which you stated your simulation studies proved that haplotypes would have mutated away from each other prior to 1300 AD. and would be unrecognizable today? I remember this clearly because I brought up the case of the Leinster Kavanaghs and Kinsellas, both of whom still match yet had a common ancestor ca. 1200 AD. I don't think this is an either/or situation. We've barely touched on the true picture of Cenel Eoghain DNA. Most of it is still unknown. Prior to the O Cathains, we find O'Donnellys and O'Devlins splitting off the line of the Cenel Eoghain. There are a few O'Donnelly M222 samples out there, perhaps Devlins as well, but no one has done anything with them. Between O Cathain and McLaughlin are a tribe called the clan Duibh Enaigh. It's possible this tribe name is also the surname Devanny, of which there are several samples, both M222, but do not match. Prior to O'Donnelly O'Devlin there are a host of barely investigated Cenel Eoghain surnames,including O'Gormley of Cenel Moain, O'Brollahan of Cenel Feradaigh (now Bradley )and Mac Cathmaoil (possibly Campbell) and O'Morrissey of Cenel Tighernaigh, O'Hogan and O'Quinn of Cenel Fergusa and Cenel Coelbad and O Duibh diorma of Cenel Feidilmid (which may be McDermot in Donegal). Lots of names, lots of potential evidence, no DNA. Barra said he took many of his M222 O Cathain samples from Londonderry Co, the heartbed of Irish O Cathain terrtory. He went beyond just trolling the databases. Perhaps you should check with him. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message