Thanks so much for posting this link. If the article was mentioned before, I missed it. On the map showing "La Tene chariot burials" the northernmost marker indicates a burial just west of Edinburgh. Not too far east of that is the home of the Subgroup E Duncans who have haplotypes that differ significantly from the other R-M222 Duncans (Subgroup B). The most marked difference is at DYS 481 where the E Duncans who have 67 markers consistently have a value of 22, while the B Duncans have 26: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ClanDonnachaidh/default.aspx?section=yresults Could one of these groups be part of a pre-Niall population? I remember reading in a very old post from this list that one Duncan line was said to descend from a particular brother of Niall. Also, have there been studies that show there is a higher percentage of R-M222 in that NE area of England where so many chariot burials are indicated? Sharon On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 1:00 AM, yair davidiy <britam@netvision.net.il>wrote: > This may have been mentioned before. > The extract below suggests that R-M222 arrived in Europe with La Tene > Culture. > This I guess would fit in with the oft quoted > opinion of O'Rahilly that they were Belgae from Gaul. > See the quotes below and after that a perhaps related query. > > ## Celtic tribes of the British Isles > http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribes.shtml#surnames > > ## La Tene Culture > > ## The Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-M222 is found in > Northern Ireland, Lowland Scotland and Northern > England and may reflect the arrival of La Tene in > Ireland (see Surnames and Y-DNA). The swirling La > Tène style continued to develop in Ireland after > the Continental heartlands of La Tene and most of > Britain were absorbed into the Roman sphere. As > Ireland emerged from its centuries-long, > climate-induced depression and embraced > Christianity, the La Tene style blossomed in such > masterpieces as the Book of Kells. .... > > ## Surnames and Y-DNA > ## Both Y-DNA and surnames are handed down from > father to son, so could links be found? Early > attempts at this approach were perhaps over-hasty > in their conclusions. The Y-DNA haplogroup > R1b-M222 was initially thought to mark the > descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages. It is > carried by nearly 20% of the men in Donegal > today. In early historic times this was the > territory of the northern U' Néill, presumed > descendants of the fabled 5th-century warlord. > R1b-M222 is particularly common among those with > some U' Néill surnames, such as O'Doherty, though > not most of the O'Neills themselves. It also > appears among the Connachta, supposed descendants > of the brothers of Niall. However its > concentration among Lowland Scots (rather than in > Gaelic Argyll) and northern English suggests that > it is centuries older than Niall. > 26L.T. Moore, B. McEvoy et al., A Y-Chromosome > Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland, The > American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 78, no. > 2 (1 February 2006), pp. 334-338; N.M Myres et al., > A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era > founder effect in Central and Western Europe, > European Journal of HumanGenetics, (advance > online publication 25 August 2010); E.B. O’Neill > and J.D. McLaughlin, Insights into the O’Neills > of Ireland from DNA testing, Journal of Genetic > Genealogy, vol. 2, no.2 (Fall, 2006), pp. 18-26; > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/; J.D. > McLaughlin, Ui Neill DNA http://clanmaclochlainn.com/dna.htm. > > ## So it is more likely to be a La Tene marker, > present among the people of north-western Ireland > long before the Uu Néill established their > dominance there, unrelated to the Uu Néill elite. > > > On a perhaps related track where did La Tene come from? > In the URL below is a listing of all ancient European YDNA heretofore. > > R1b is almost non-existant! > > There is an instance (2 samples?) from the > Lichtenstein Cave in Germany from ca. 1000 BCE. > > Apart from that there plenty of G2as and I2a, > some R1a (in Germany, Russia, and China) but no R1b! > > We then get 19 samples from the Basque area of Spain dated 500-700 CE. > > Then another 4 (?) "Merovingian" (?) sample from Ergolding, Germany 670 CE. > > Ancient Western Eurasian DNA > http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >