Aha! John, your translation is correct. I just checked O/ Cle/irigh's genealogies on your website and found on p. 52: "m Diarmada m Con mhuighe m Diarmada m Con muighe na nGall m Magnusa chatha duin..." "of the son of Diarmuid of the son of Cu/ Muighe of the son of Diarmuid of the son of Cu/ Muighe of the Foreigners of the son of Magnus of the Battle of Down..." As you know, this follows the Irish naming custom and demonstrates that "Cu/ Muighe" is a single unit and the inherited part of the name. So, this Cu/ Muighe 'of the Foreigners' either followed some of their customs or was fostered among them. Sorry for going astray for awhile. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 2:07:11 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain I should emphasize "typically" below, but the alternate translation of 'Cu/ of the Foreigners of the Plain' is indeed possible. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 1:51:44 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain Hi John and Charles, You're right. A name like "Art na nGall" would mean "Art of the Foreigners", meaning that Art followed their ways. But in Cu/ Muighe na nGall, the position of "na nGall" in the phrase would typically indicate that 'na nGall" refers to the Muigh ('Plain') rather than to Cu/. If "na nGall" was instead meant to refer to Cu/, it might have been rendered Cu/ na nGall na Muighe ('Hound of the Foreigners of the Plain' - an extremely clumsy construction in Irish because it violates the rule of not using two definite articles in the same phrase) or much more probably, Cu/ Gallda na Muighe ('Foreign-like Cu/ of the Plain' - a phrase which doesn't violate the single definite article rule). I tried to find Muigh na nGall ('Plain of the Foreigners') and any of its possible variations last night in Onomasticon Goedelicum and the various Annals but could not. It's also not listed on www.logainm.ie , which is a database of the modern Irish Language placenames of Ireland. My guess is that the name ceased to exist after the Irish re-conquered Ulster from the Norman families who took it at the end of the 12th century. Go raibh se/ seo cabhrach. / Hope this is helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 12:03:26 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain In a message dated 6/29/2011 9:41:49 A.M. Central Daylight Time, cain@umich.edu writes: Is there a literal translation of "Con muighe na nGall" (since the topic came up earlier)? Just interested how the word "foreign" is embedded in the name as my internet source suggested. I'm not sure why he was called na nGall either (of the foreigners). That term was usually used by the Irish annalists for either Vikings or later Normans. Not as far as I know for Scotland. In this time period (c. 1300) it probably referred to Normans. His father, Manus of Catha duinn, died fighting the Normans at Downpatrick in 1260. So did a number of other O Cathains. It was a famous battle in which the Irish were routed by the superior weaponry of the Normans. One famous poem describes the Irish in their linen tunics being mowed down by a phalanx of iron. This battle also ushered in the gallowglass era of Ireland's history as the native Irish sought ways to defeat the Normans (the gallowglass were much better armed than the Irish). Not long afterwards the MacSweeneys were settled in Donegal and the O'Donnell chieftain married two Scottish wives, a MacSweeney and a McDonald. The O'Neills imported the MacDonald gallowglass. The O Cathains may have as well except I have no info on that. But you do have the connections with the O Cathain bride and Angus og MacDonald. I found a brief reference online: ""He also suggests that the soubriquet na nGall was given to a person who favoured and copied foreigners, rather than a person who fought against them" Annals of Ulster R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have wondered if the '"foreign" reference goes back several centuries when the Vikings were playing a large role in Ireland. Consider: "Magnus of the Battle of Down..." Am I wrong in assuming that Magnus is a name of Viking origin? If so, seems a little strange to me for good Irishmen to take Viking names. Unless, of course, if the Vikings were not always seen as an enemy. Could names like "Magnus," and reference to foreign influence, go back to the Vikings who may not have always been viewed, as they seem from our perspective, as the enemy? Charles Kelly wrote: > Aha! John, your translation is correct. I just checked O/ Cle/irigh's > genealogies on your website and found on p. 52: > > > "m Diarmada m Con mhuighe m Diarmada m Con muighe na nGall m Magnusa > chatha duin..." > > "of the son of Diarmuid of the son of Cu/ Muighe of the son of Diarmuid of the > son of Cu/ Muighe of the Foreigners of the son of Magnus of the Battle of > Down..." > > > As you know, this follows the Irish naming custom and demonstrates that "Cu/ > Muighe" is a single unit and the inherited part of the name. So, this Cu/ > Muighe 'of the Foreigners' either followed some of their customs or was fostered > among them. > > Sorry for going astray for awhile. > > Best, > Jerry > > > Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press > www.druidpress.com > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 2:07:11 PM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain > > > I should emphasize "typically" below, but the alternate translation of 'Cu/ of > the Foreigners of the Plain' is indeed possible. > > Best, > Jerry > > > > Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press > www.druidpress.com > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 1:51:44 PM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain > > Hi John and Charles, > > You're right. A name like "Art na nGall" would mean "Art of the Foreigners", > meaning that Art followed their ways. But in Cu/ Muighe na nGall, the position > of "na nGall" in the phrase would typically indicate that 'na nGall" refers to > the Muigh ('Plain') rather than to Cu/. > > > If "na nGall" was instead meant to refer to Cu/, it might have been rendered Cu/ > > na nGall na Muighe ('Hound of the Foreigners of the Plain' - an extremely > clumsy > > construction in Irish because it violates the rule of not using two definite > articles in the same phrase) or much more probably, Cu/ Gallda na Muighe > ('Foreign-like Cu/ of the Plain' - a phrase which doesn't violate the single > definite article rule). > > I tried to find Muigh na nGall ('Plain of the Foreigners') and any of its > possible variations last night in Onomasticon Goedelicum and the various Annals > but could not. It's also not listed on www.logainm.ie , which is a database of > the modern Irish Language placenames of Ireland. My guess is that the name > ceased to exist after the Irish re-conquered Ulster from the Norman families who > > took it at the end of the 12th century. > > > Go raibh se/ seo cabhrach. / Hope this is helpful. > > Best, > Jerry > > Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press > > www.druidpress.com > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thu, June 30, 2011 12:03:26 AM > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Con muighe na nGall O'Cathain > > In a message dated 6/29/2011 9:41:49 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > cain@umich.edu writes: > > Is there a literal translation of > > "Con muighe na nGall" > > (since the topic came up earlier)? > > Just interested how the word "foreign" is embedded in the name as my > internet source suggested. > > I'm not sure why he was called na nGall either (of the foreigners). That > term was usually used by the Irish annalists for either Vikings or later > Normans. Not as far as I know for Scotland. In this time period (c. 1300) it > probably referred to Normans. His father, Manus of Catha duinn, died > fighting the Normans at Downpatrick in 1260. So did a number of other O > Cathains. It was a famous battle in which the Irish were routed by the > superior > > weaponry of the Normans. One famous poem describes the Irish in their > linen tunics being mowed down by a phalanx of iron. This battle also ushered > in the gallowglass era of Ireland's history as the native Irish sought ways > to defeat the Normans (the gallowglass were much better armed than the > Irish). Not long afterwards the MacSweeneys were settled in Donegal and the > O'Donnell chieftain married two Scottish wives, a MacSweeney and a McDonald. > The O'Neills imported the MacDonald gallowglass. The O Cathains may have > as well except I have no info on that. But you do have the connections with > the O Cathain bride and Angus og MacDonald. > > I found a brief reference online: > > ""He also suggests that the soubriquet na nGall was given to a person who > favoured > and copied foreigners, rather than a person who fought against them" > > Annals of Ulster > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >