In a message dated 6/8/2011 4:44:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lawrencedill@ymail.com writes: I want to post this message because there has been a question about an earlier post that I made on this thread. I learned about Keating's History from this mailing-list a few months ago. I understood the passage from Keating's History as saying that during the time of Niall of the Nine Hostages, the Ui Neill had raided and settled in what is now known as SW Scotland. I learned from a more recent post that it can not really be known for sure what happened during the time of Niall because the Irish did not start recording history until possibly 700 AD. I tried to track down that reference to Nial and the settlement of chieftains in Scotland but didn't get far with it. Keating was quoting a line from a Life of St. Patrick. But I couldn't find a discussion of which Life of Patrick was being referenced. There are lots of them. O'Rahilly does not mention that specific statement about a settlement in Scotland but does mention a "late Latin life of Patrick" which is probably the same source. The "late" bit worried me a little. It's an interesting statement but without knowing the source I cannot begin to judge it's possible validity. As to when the Irish annals truly become historical I found this: The Irish Annals; Their Genesis, Evolution and History Daniel P. McCarthy 2008 There is a general consensus that the earliest or almost the earliest layer [of the Irish annals] is a chronicle kept in Iona up to the early or mid-eighth centuries. Columcille (founder of Iona) d. 597 AD. That might give a frame of reference. The Irish annals themselves are generally divided into two sections. Pre-patrician and post-Patrician. Anything prior to the time of St. Patrick is generally regarded as non-contemporary fill-ins from a later period. The post-Patrician portion of the annals of Ulster begins in 431 with a mention of Patrick himself. So perhaps the date I gave (700 AD) is a bit too late. I think there is general agreement that the Irish annals could not have been written prior to the advent of writing in Ireland which generally coincides with the arrival of Christianity. Others can throw in their two cents worth on this one. I'm certainly no expert at the dating of Irish annals. John

Hi Lawrence, John's right. As far as we can tell, contemporary events start getting recorded in writing in the 8th century. Oral history (legend) also begins to be backfilled for earlier periods. In other words, people in the 8th century start writing down what they heard happened in previous centuries. Some of this backfilling looks pretty accurate. For example, the Battle of Rath does seem to have occurred about 637 A.D. But some of the history doesn't seem plausible by today's standards. For example, one of the causes of the battle is said to have been a miracle which Congal Cáech, King of the Dál nAraide, perceived as an insult. A goose's egg on a golden plate offered to Congal was changed into a hen's egg on a wooden plate due to a saint's curse. Everybody else got gold and goose. Congal threw a fit and declared war. Hope that's helpful. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 8:29 PM To: lawrencedill@ymail.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went M222? In a message dated 6/8/2011 4:44:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lawrencedill@ymail.com writes: I want to post this message because there has been a question about an earlier post that I made on this thread. I learned about Keating's History from this mailing-list a few months ago. I understood the passage from Keating's History as saying that during the time of Niall of the Nine Hostages, the Ui Neill had raided and settled in what is now known as SW Scotland. I learned from a more recent post that it can not really be known for sure what happened during the time of Niall because the Irish did not start recording history until possibly 700 AD. I tried to track down that reference to Nial and the settlement of chieftains in Scotland but didn't get far with it. Keating was quoting a line from a Life of St. Patrick. But I couldn't find a discussion of which Life of Patrick was being referenced. There are lots of them. O'Rahilly does not mention that specific statement about a settlement in Scotland but does mention a "late Latin life of Patrick" which is probably the same source. The "late" bit worried me a little. It's an interesting statement but without knowing the source I cannot begin to judge it's possible validity. As to when the Irish annals truly become historical I found this: The Irish Annals; Their Genesis, Evolution and History Daniel P. McCarthy 2008 There is a general consensus that the earliest or almost the earliest layer [of the Irish annals] is a chronicle kept in Iona up to the early or mid-eighth centuries. Columcille (founder of Iona) d. 597 AD. That might give a frame of reference. The Irish annals themselves are generally divided into two sections. Pre-patrician and post-Patrician. Anything prior to the time of St. Patrick is generally regarded as non-contemporary fill-ins from a later period. The post-Patrician portion of the annals of Ulster begins in 431 with a mention of Patrick himself. So perhaps the date I gave (700 AD) is a bit too late. I think there is general agreement that the Irish annals could not have been written prior to the advent of writing in Ireland which generally coincides with the arrival of Christianity. Others can throw in their two cents worth on this one. I'm certainly no expert at the dating of Irish annals. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message