Gerry, I posted the following about 1 year ago on this list: Going back to the original subject, I see more info on "Conaire Mór" (Conroy the Great) here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r Specifically that: A descendant of Íar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>, Conaire belonged to the legendary Clanna Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad>, the legendary royal family of the Érainn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn>. His descendants in Ireland and Scotland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland> were known as the Síl Conairi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>. The last king in the direct male line from Conaire Mór was Alexander III of Scotland <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_III_of_Scotland>. The Clanna Dedad has an interesting geneology:<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r> Descent of the Clanna Dedad Skipped generations are given in the notes. - Sen mac Rosin<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sen_mac_Rosin&action=edit&redlink=1> [22] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-21> - Dedu mac Sin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedu_mac_Sin> a quo *Clanna Dedad* - Íar mac Dedad <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad> - Ailill Anglonnach<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ailill_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1> - Éogan [23]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-22> - Eterscél <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etersc%C3%A9l> - Conaire Mór<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r> a quo *Síl Conaire* - Mug Láma - Conaire Cóem<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_C%C3%B3em> [24]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-23> - Eochaid (Cairpre) Riata (Rigfhota), a quo - *Dál Riata<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata> * - Erc of Dalriada<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erc_of_Dalriada> [25]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-24> - Fergus Mór<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_M%C3%B3r> - Domangart Réti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domangart_R%C3%A9ti> - Gabrán mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabr%C3%A1n_mac_Domangairt>, a quo - *Cenél nGabráin* - *House of Alpin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Alpin> * - *House of Dunkeld<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Dunkeld> * - Comgall mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comgall_mac_Domangairt>, a quo - *Cenél Comgaill* - Loarn mac Eirc<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loarn_mac_Eirc>, a quo - *Cenél Loairn* - *House of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Moray> * - *Mormaers of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormaers_of_Moray> * - Óengus Mór mac Eirc, a quo - *Cenél nÓengusa<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cen%C3%A9l_n%C3%93engusa> * - Cairpre Músc<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cairpre_M%C3%BAsc&action=edit&redlink=1>, a quo - *Múscraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige> * - Corc Duibne, a quo - *Corcu Duibne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne> * - Cairpre Baschaín, a quo - *Corcu Baiscind<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscind> * - Dáire mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad> / Dairi Sirchrechtaig / Dáire Doimthech<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_Doimthech> - Cú Roí mac Dáire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD_mac_D%C3%A1ire> - Lugaid mac Con Roí<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugaid_mac_Con_Ro%C3%AD> - Fuirme mac Con Roí [26]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-25> - (F)Iatach Find<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn>, a quo - *Dál Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> * - *Dáirine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine>* - *Corcu Loígde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde> * [27]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-26> [28] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-27> - Conganchnes mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conganchnes_mac_Dedad> - Conall Anglonnach mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Conall_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1> ,[29] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-28> a quo - *Conaille Muirtheimne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaille_Muirtheimne> * - Eochaid (Echdach/Echach) mac Sin [30]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-29> - Deitsin/Deitsini - Dlúthaich/Dluthaig - Dáire/Dairi - Fir furmi [31]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-30> - Fiatach Finn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn> [32]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-31> / Fiachach Fir Umai [33]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-32> - *Dál Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> * So the Dal Fiatach are actually related to the Dal Riata, both of North Eastern Ireland. They are also related to tribes in the South West of Ireland: 1. Corcu Duibne - West Co Kerry, Dingle Penninsula and related areas - O'Shea, O'Falvey and O'Connell 2. Corcu Loígde - West Co Cork - O'Driscoll (R-M222), Coffey<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffey> , O'Leary <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Leary>, Hennessy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hennessy_(disambiguation)> , Flynn <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn>, Dinneen<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinneen> . O'Hea <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hea>, Cronin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronin> , Dunlea<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunlea&action=edit&redlink=1> 3. Corcu Bascind - South Co Clare - O'Baskin, MacDermot, O'Donnell/MacDonnell (R-M222), MacMahon Cheers, Paul On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Gerry <gerry@ringofgullion.com> wrote: > John, > > I might be able to shed some light on the Y-DNA of the Dál Fiatach, from > two > sources. One is the McEvoy study and the other is some research that Jerry > Kelly, of this list, has just done for me. > > ========================================================================= > 1) McEvoy et al. > > John posted this some time ago which he culled from the McEvoy study: > Dunleavy Haughey MCGUINNESS > > 5 M222 of 12 14 M222 of 19 24 M222 of 99 > Ulster (1) Most in Ulster Ulster (11) > Leinster (2) Associated with Donegal&Armagh Connacht (10) > Munster (1) O hEochaidh Leinster > (3) > Connacht (1) > > I post the McGuinnes just to emphasize what John posted below. They are > generally not M222, but HG I. > > McEvoy normalized all of his names to one spelling. He normalized Haughey > and McGuinness, so we don't know the original spellings of > Haughey/Hoey/Hoy. > > As John noted above, the Haughey spelling is common in Donegal and Armagh > while Hoey/Hoy is common in Louth and the surrounding counties. > > The Annals say that the Mac Dunveavys were expelled by the Normans from > Ulidia and some went to Donegal (McInulty sp?). It is also said that some > of > the Ó hEochaidh went with them since they were really the same family, (see > Jerry Kelly's work below). > > So, if any of McEvoy's M222 Haughey were from Donegal, they were from Dál > Fiatach, which was their region of Ulidia. This points to the Dál Fiatach > being M222. > > If any of McEvoy's Haughey were from the Louth area, they were really > Hoey/Hoy/Ó hEochaidh. The Ó hEochaidh were from Dál Fiatach. My family is > Hoy from mid-Louth and is M222. This points to the Dál Fiatach being M222. > > Note. A NPE from say, Donegal for my Louth family, is not likely since my > M222 matches are half Irish and half Scots, which makes sense for a family > based near Downptrick. > > =========================================================================== > 2) Jerry Kelly's research. > > I thrashed around for months trying to understand what the Annals that I > had > access to, meant about my family. I gave up and went to Jerry Kelly who is > a > fluent Irish speaker and also understands the nuances of the Annals. > > He found that the Ó hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshléibhe were on the main branch of > the Dál Fiatach rulers and that the Mac Duinnshléibhe had barely split from > the Ó hEochaidh before the Normans arrived. > > “So for instance when after 1137 the Dal Fiatach kingship was confined > to the descendants of Donn Sleibe Mac Eochada (slain in 1091), the > rigdamnai > set themselves apart from the rest of the family by using the name Mac > Duinnshleibhe (Donleavy)." Byrne, page 128 > > The Ó hEochaidh family, (Sloinne Ó hEochaidh as Jerry taught me) took the > name from Eochaidh mac Ardghair, who died in 979. Before that it was just > "son of, son of, ..." > > Jerry used the non-translated Irish Annals to trace the line back reliably > to 455 and less reliably earlier. > > So the Ó hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshléibhe line were the ruling family of Dál > Fiatach back to the time of Patrick. Jerry has another story of how the > family got to Louth with the help of the O'Loughlins and O'Carrols, but > that > is for another time. > > ========================================================================== > > Conclusion. > > With McEvoy's Haugheys and Jerry's work with the Annals and my M222 test > and > unusual matches, I pretty sure that the Dál Fiatach were M222, at least on > the main line. > > We also know that in tribal societies, the bottom tier doesn't reproduce > itself and the top tier over produces. So some people fall down each > generation and eventually, on the male line, everyone is related. So if the > ruling line is M222, so are all. > > Gerry Hoy > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 11:58 PM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 > > Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui > Neill > (Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move north into > Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin, natives of > the > territory. I do not know yet if he ties this into the Venicnii of > Ptolemy > (I only have one chapter copied) but he does mention a Winducatti in the > Dunfanaghy area of Donegal which might be the same tribe. Much of his > argument is based on Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to 690 AD. He tries to > connect the Cenel Conaill to the Ui Eachach Cobha and the Cenel Eoghain > to the Dal Fiatach, two familiar tribes from Ulster. In that he seems > completely off-base. > > Can anyone connect M222 to either of these tribes? > > The Ui Eachach Cobha in particular were said to be Cruithin as an off > shoot > of the Dal nAraidi. The historical chieftains were the Maguinnes of Co. > Down, whose chieftains were I haplogroup according to Patrick Guinness, > associated with the Trinity DNA project. If anyone has the slightest idea > what Dal Fiatach DNA looks like I haven't heard about it. > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >