Since the two lands are completely linked through migrations, here is a summarized brief look at Scotland. The site for further exploration is at http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2html Certainly some from this site has already been here, however for those who haven't been consider it simply an addition to the discussion regarding heritages. *A Brief History of Scotland * Presented by Peter N. Williams, Ph.D. <http://www.britannia.com/wales/peter.html> *Chapter 1: Celtic Scotland* There is evidence of human settlement in parts of present day Scotland <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#> that dates back to 6,000 BC. The inhabitants were hunters and fishermen. About two thousand years later, a second group arrived -- the Neolithic people. Some of their stone houses remain in Orkney; the well-preserved stone-built village, Skara Brae <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>, attests to the wealth and stability of its builders. On the mainland, chambered tombs also show the sophisticated engineering of a settled, cooperative community. Then came the Beaker folk, named after the shape of their pottery. It is to these people that we owe the mysterious groups of huge stone circles and standing stones dotted hither and yon across the landscape. The Bronze Age, or rather, the early and late Bronze Ages, from about 2,000 to 600 BC, introduced swords, knives, chisels, buckles, cauldrons and buckets, all evidence of a high level of civilization and creature comfort that was enhanced by the metal craft learned in the so-called subsequent Iron Age. Such objects were used by the indigenous Picts, who lived in the region north of the Firth of Forth, and the Celts, who had come to live in regions of Britain and Ireland further south. It is to the invading Romans <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#> that we owe our written history of Britain; before their arrival, it simply wasn't the Celtic custom to entrust their history to anyone but the holy men and it was not to be written. The Romans, however, were always anxious to set down their military triumphs in writing, and from their historians a picture of Britain and its inhabitants began to emerge. In the fourth century, a Latin poem describes the people of Tartessos on the Atlantic coast of Iberia trading with the inhabitants of two large islands, Ierne and Albion (Ireland and Scotland), people who spoke a Celtic language. Ptolemy's geography (written about 150 AD includes a group of five islands lying between Scotland and Ireland. On them was built, a new structural form, the broch (a fortified dwelling), an immense round stone tower. The best preserved is found on Mousa in Shetland. Because they are perched on hills and headlands, the brochs seem to have been built by resident lords to protect their settlements from sea-borne raiders. In 55 and 54 BC following his success in subduing most of Gaul, Caesar turned his attention to the islands of Britain. However, for a few years afterwards, the Roman armies were fully occupied in suppressing the revolt of the Gauls on the continent under Vercingetorix, and so Britain was more-or-less left on its own, apart from its trading links with the Continent. Under the Emperor Claudius, Rome again began to look westwards to the misty lands over the sea, to a land full of legendary mineral wealth as well as good grain-growing pastures. Overcoming what amounted to only token resistance in the southeast, the Romans set up the frontier, the Fosse Way, running from Lincoln in the north to Essex in the southwest. Their prosperous villas attest to settled, peaceful conditions in the agricultural lands to the southeast. It was in the more mountainous areas west of the line, however, that the much sought-after minerals lay. And it was there that resistance was fiercest. The accounts given by Tacitus (written approximately half a century after those of Ptolemy) are particularly important, for his father-in-law was Agricola, appointed Governor of the Roman province of Britain. Agricola invaded what is now southern Scotland in 81 A.D. Before that, Roman garrisons had been established at Caerwent (near present-day Chepstow) in the south and Deva (Chester) in the north to keep a close eye on the Celtic tribesmen to the west, where the Romans found it necessary to destroy the Druid center of Wales on the Menai Straits. *84 AD - MONS GRAUPIUS* Farther north, under Agricola, the Roman armies vanquished one tribe after another until a final, decisive battle against Calgacus "the swordsman" at Mons Graupius in 84 A.D. This ended effective resistance (the Western Isles and the Highlands were left alone and up until the Clearances of the 18th century remained very much Celtic countries in language and culture). Though Agricola may have wished to add Ireland to his conquests, no Roman expedition was ever taken across the Celtic Sea to that large, relatively unknown western island. The Romans gave the country north of present-day Stirlingshire the name *Caledonia*. Much of the terrain is rugged and mountainous. In fact, three fifths of Scotland are mountain, hill and wind-swept moorland, unsuitable for agriculture and therefore not interesting to the Romans. In the Welsh language <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>, widely spoken throughout the area when the Romans arrived, it was known as *Coed Celyddon* (the Caledonian Forest), inhabited by spectres and madmen, including *Myrddyn Wyllt* (Mad Merlin). Tacitus refers to the inhabitants of the region as britanni. It was not only the nature of the terrain that caused the Romans to abandon their attempts at conquest but the unimagined terrors of this Celtic world. After the Roman armies had been recalled to Rome, following Mons Graupius, their strategy towards Scotland was mainly a defensive one. In 121 AD, upon a visit to Britain, the Emperor Hadrian had this still-impressive wall built from Solway in the West Coast to Tyne in the east. Twenty years later, the turf-built Antonine Wall, stretching from the Clyde to the Forth, followed its more famous stone predecessor. The Caledonians quickly learned to master the art of guerrilla warfare against a scattered, and no-doubt homesick Roman legion in the North, including those led by their aging and frustrated commander Severus. It wasn't long before the Antonine Wall was abandoned, and the troops of Rome withdrew south to the well known and much longer, stronger defensive barrier built by Hadrian. Trouble at home meant that by the end of the fourth century, the remaining Roman outposts in Scotland were abandoned. Any civilized benefits of Roman rule enjoyed by southern Britain were thus denied to their northern neighbors who were having troubles of their own. At the time of the withdrawal, Scotland (Alba or Alban) was divided between four different races. The Picts of Celtic, perhaps of Scythian stock, predominated lived from Caithness in the north to the Forth in the south. The Britons of Strathclyde stretched from the Clyde to the Solway and further south into Cumbria. The late arriving Teutonic Anglo-Saxons, held the lands to the east south of the Forth into Northumbria and the kingdom of Dalriada, to the west, including present-day Argyll <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>, (the land of the Gael). The Scots, from Northern Ireland occupied Kintyre and the neighboring islands in the third and fourth centuries. In perhaps typical Celtic fashion, the Picts and Scots spent more time fighting against each other than against their common enemies. *_Chapter 1: Celtic Scotland Continued_* <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2a.html> On 8/24/2011 3:00 AM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 - D?l > Fiatach (Paul Conroy) > 2. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe (Lochlan@aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:58:38 -0400 > From: Paul Conroy<pconroy63@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD > 500-800 - D?l Fiatach > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CA+2t2c6PNFie4UjCfcz4sDWis=QKpZdHccXRHPytJNR0yNKP-w@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Here's a link on the Erainn peoples in Ireland, which could also tie > together a few things: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn > > In early Irish genealogical tracts the ?rainn are regarded as an ethnic >> group, distinct from the Laigin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin> and >> Cruthin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruthin>. Population groups in >> Munster classed as ?rainn include the Corcu Lo?gde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde> in >> southwest County Cork<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Cork>, the >> M?scraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige> in Counties Cork >> andTipperary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Tipperary>, the Corcu >> Duibne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne> in County Kerry<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Kerry>, >> and the Corcu Baiscinn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscinn> in >> west County Clare<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Clare>. The D?l >> Riata<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata> and D?l Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> >> (or Ulaid<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaid>) in Ulster<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster> are >> also considered ?rainn. The ?rainn appear to have been a powerful group in >> the proto-historic period, but in early historical times were largely >> reduced to politically marginal status, with the notable exception of the >> enigmatic Osraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osraige>. The most >> important of the Munster ?rainn, the Corcu Lo?gde, retained some measure of >> prestige even after they had become marginalized by the E?ganachta<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta> in >> the 7th or 8th century.[7]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-6> It >> is likely that the sometimes powerful U? Liath?in<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Liath%C3%A1in> and >> their close kin the U? Fidgenti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Fidgenti> originally >> belonged to the ?rainn/D?irine as well, but were later counted among the >> E?ganachta for political reasons.[8]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-7> >> [9]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-8> Another >> prominent ?rainn people of early Munster are believed to have been the >> Mairtine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairtine>, who by the early >> historical period have completely vanished from the Irish landscape, >> although they may be in part ancestral to the later D?isi Tuisceart<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi_Tuisceart> >> and D?l gCais<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais>.[10]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-9> >> The D?isi Muman<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi_Muman> may also >> have had ?rainn origins, but this has long been disputed. > > Note that Osraige is Ossory - where my family comes from. > > It seems likely the Iverni were related to the > Darini<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini> of >> eastern Ulster<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster>.[11]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-10> The >> name "Darini" implies descent from an ancestor called D?ire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire>, >> (**D?rios*)[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3> as >> claimed by several historical peoples identified as ?rainn, including the >> D?l Riata and D?l Fiatach in eastern Ulster[12]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-11> as >> well the ?rainn of Munster. An early name for Dundrum, County Down<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundrum,_County_Down>, >> is recorded as *D?n Droma D?irine*, and the name D?irine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine> was >> applied to the Corcu Lo?gde, further suggesting a relationship between the >> Darini and the Iverni.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3> > > The genealogies trace the descent of the ?rainn from two separate eponymous >> ancestors, Ailill ?rann and ?ar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>. >> Legendary relatives of the latter include the Cland Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cland_Dedad> (offspring >> of Deda mac Sin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deda_mac_Sin>), a Munster >> people who appear in the Ulster Cycle<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Cycle>, >> led by C? Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>, son of D?ire >> mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad>, and the >> legendary High King<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland> Conaire >> M?r<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r>, grandson of Iar and >> ancestor of the S?l Conairi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>. >> The historical sept of the U? Maicc Iair ("grandsons of the son of Iar") and >> the MAQI IARI of ogham inscriptions also appear to be related.[13]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-12> The >> personal name *Iar* is simply another variant of the root present in >> Iverni and ?rainn.[14]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-13> Finally, >> the name *?th*, given in the genealogies as the ultimate ancestor of the >> Corcu Lo?gde (D?irine) and offering some confusion about their parentage and >> relation to the Iverni, in fact preserves the same Indo-European root * >> *peiH-* ("to be fat, swell"),[15]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-14> thus >> in effect completing a basic picture of the Iverni/?rainn and their kindred >> in later historical Ireland. > > C? Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD> = Conroy > Conaire = Conroy > > T. F. O'Rahilly<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._F._O%27Rahilly> identified >> the ?rainn with the mythological Fir Bolg<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir_Bolg> and >> the historical Belgae<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae> of Gaul<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul> >> and Britain<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain>. He proposed >> that they invaded from Britain and spoke a Brythonic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brythonic_languages> language, >> which he named Ivernic and identified with a language referred to in a >> number of early sources as *Iarnnb?lrae*, *Iarnb?lrae*, and *Iarmb?rla*, >> which, if treated as Old Irish<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish>, >> means "Iron-speech". The 9th-century Irish dictionary *Sanas Cormaic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic> >> * ("Cormac's glossary") describes *Iarnnb?lrae* as a recently extinct >> language which was "dense and difficult", and records two words which >> derived from it.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3> However, >> by the proto-historical period the ?rainn were evidently Goidelic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goidelic>-speaking, >> as evidenced by the fact that ogham<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham> inscriptions >> in Primitive Irish<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Irish> are most >> abundant in Counties Cork and Kerry.[16]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-15> > > More on C? Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C?_Ro? > > Cheers, > Paul > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Paul Conroy<pconroy63@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Gerry, >> >> I posted the following about 1 year ago on this list: >> >> Going back to the original subject, I see more info on "Conaire M?r" >> (Conroy the Great) here: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r >> >> Specifically that: >> A descendant of ?ar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>, >> Conaire belonged to the legendary Clanna Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad>, >> the legendary royal family of the ?rainn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn>. >> His descendants in Ireland and Scotland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland> were >> known as the S?l Conairi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>. >> The last king in the direct male line from Conaire M?r was Alexander III >> of Scotland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_III_of_Scotland>. >> >> The Clanna Dedad has an interesting geneology:<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r> >> Descent of the Clanna Dedad >> >> Skipped generations are given in the notes. >> >> - Sen mac Rosin<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sen_mac_Rosin&action=edit&redlink=1> >> [22]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-21> >> - Dedu mac Sin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedu_mac_Sin> a quo *Clanna >> Dedad* >> - ?ar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad> >> - Ailill Anglonnach<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ailill_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1> >> - ?ogan [23]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-22> >> - Etersc?l<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etersc%C3%A9l> >> - Conaire M?r<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r> a >> quo *S?l Conaire* >> - Mug L?ma >> - Conaire C?em<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_C%C3%B3em> >> [24]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-23> >> - Eochaid (Cairpre) Riata (Rigfhota), a quo >> - *D?l Riata<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata> >> * >> - Erc of Dalriada<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erc_of_Dalriada> >> [25]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-24> >> - Fergus M?r<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_M%C3%B3r> >> - Domangart R?ti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domangart_R%C3%A9ti> >> - Gabr?n mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabr%C3%A1n_mac_Domangairt>, >> a quo >> - *Cen?l nGabr?in* >> - *House of Alpin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Alpin> >> * >> - *House of Dunkeld<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Dunkeld> >> * >> - Comgall mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comgall_mac_Domangairt>, >> a quo >> - *Cen?l Comgaill* >> - Loarn mac Eirc<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loarn_mac_Eirc>, >> a quo >> - *Cen?l Loairn* >> - *House of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Moray> >> * >> - *Mormaers of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormaers_of_Moray> >> * >> - ?engus M?r mac Eirc, a quo >> - *Cen?l n?engusa<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cen%C3%A9l_n%C3%93engusa> >> * >> - Cairpre M?sc<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cairpre_M%C3%BAsc&action=edit&redlink=1>, >> a quo >> - *M?scraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige> >> * >> - Corc Duibne, a quo >> - *Corcu Duibne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne> >> * >> - Cairpre Bascha?n, a quo >> - *Corcu Baiscind<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscind> >> * >> - D?ire mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad> / >> Dairi Sirchrechtaig / D?ire Doimthech<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_Doimthech> >> - C? Ro? mac D?ire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD_mac_D%C3%A1ire> >> - Lugaid mac Con Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugaid_mac_Con_Ro%C3%AD> >> - Fuirme mac Con Ro? [26]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-25> >> - (F)Iatach Find<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn>, >> a quo >> - *D?l Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> >> * >> - *D?irine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine>* >> - *Corcu Lo?gde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde> >> * [27]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-26> >> [28]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-27> >> - Conganchnes mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conganchnes_mac_Dedad> >> - Conall Anglonnach mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Conall_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1> >> ,[29]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-28> a >> quo >> - *Conaille Muirtheimne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaille_Muirtheimne> >> * >> - Eochaid (Echdach/Echach) mac Sin [30]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-29> >> - Deitsin/Deitsini >> - Dl?thaich/Dluthaig >> - D?ire/Dairi >> - Fir furmi [31]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-30> >> - Fiatach Finn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn> >> [32]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-31> / >> Fiachach Fir Umai [33]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-32> >> - *D?l Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> >> * >> >> >> So the Dal Fiatach are actually related to the Dal Riata, both of North >> Eastern Ireland. >> >> They are also related to tribes in the South West of Ireland: >> 1. Corcu Duibne - West Co Kerry, Dingle Penninsula and related areas - >> O'Shea, O'Falvey and O'Connell >> 2. Corcu Lo?gde - West Co Cork - O'Driscoll (R-M222), Coffey<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffey> >> , O'Leary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Leary>, Hennessy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hennessy_(disambiguation)> >> , Flynn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn>, Dinneen<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinneen> >> . O'Hea<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hea>, Cronin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronin> >> , Dunlea<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunlea&action=edit&redlink=1> >> 3. Corcu Bascind - South Co Clare - O'Baskin, MacDermot, >> O'Donnell/MacDonnell (R-M222), MacMahon >> >> Cheers, >> Paul >> >> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Gerry<gerry@ringofgullion.com> wrote: >> >>> John, >>> >>> I might be able to shed some light on the Y-DNA of the D?l Fiatach, from >>> two >>> sources. One is the McEvoy study and the other is some research that Jerry >>> Kelly, of this list, has just done for me. >>> >>> ========================================================================= >>> 1) McEvoy et al. >>> >>> John posted this some time ago which he culled from the McEvoy study: >>> Dunleavy Haughey MCGUINNESS >>> >>> 5 M222 of 12 14 M222 of 19 24 M222 of 99 >>> Ulster (1) Most in Ulster Ulster >>> (11) >>> Leinster (2) Associated with Donegal&Armagh Connacht (10) >>> Munster (1) O hEochaidh Leinster >>> (3) >>> Connacht (1) >>> >>> I post the McGuinnes just to emphasize what John posted below. They are >>> generally not M222, but HG I. >>> >>> McEvoy normalized all of his names to one spelling. He normalized Haughey >>> and McGuinness, so we don't know the original spellings of >>> Haughey/Hoey/Hoy. >>> >>> As John noted above, the Haughey spelling is common in Donegal and Armagh >>> while Hoey/Hoy is common in Louth and the surrounding counties. >>> >>> The Annals say that the Mac Dunveavys were expelled by the Normans from >>> Ulidia and some went to Donegal (McInulty sp?). It is also said that some >>> of >>> the ? hEochaidh went with them since they were really the same family, >>> (see >>> Jerry Kelly's work below). >>> >>> So, if any of McEvoy's M222 Haughey were from Donegal, they were from D?l >>> Fiatach, which was their region of Ulidia. This points to the D?l Fiatach >>> being M222. >>> >>> If any of McEvoy's Haughey were from the Louth area, they were really >>> Hoey/Hoy/? hEochaidh. The ? hEochaidh were from D?l Fiatach. My family is >>> Hoy from mid-Louth and is M222. This points to the D?l Fiatach being M222. >>> >>> Note. A NPE from say, Donegal for my Louth family, is not likely since my >>> M222 matches are half Irish and half Scots, which makes sense for a family >>> based near Downptrick. >>> >>> >>> =========================================================================== >>> 2) Jerry Kelly's research. >>> >>> I thrashed around for months trying to understand what the Annals that I >>> had >>> access to, meant about my family. I gave up and went to Jerry Kelly who is >>> a >>> fluent Irish speaker and also understands the nuances of the Annals. >>> >>> He found that the ? hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshl?ibhe were on the main branch of >>> the D?l Fiatach rulers and that the Mac Duinnshl?ibhe had barely split >>> from >>> the ? hEochaidh before the Normans arrived. >>> >>> ?So for instance when after 1137 the Dal Fiatach kingship was confined >>> to the descendants of Donn Sleibe Mac Eochada (slain in 1091), the >>> rigdamnai >>> set themselves apart from the rest of the family by using the name Mac >>> Duinnshleibhe (Donleavy)." Byrne, page 128 >>> >>> The ? hEochaidh family, (Sloinne ? hEochaidh as Jerry taught me) took the >>> name from Eochaidh mac Ardghair, who died in 979. Before that it was just >>> "son of, son of, ..." >>> >>> Jerry used the non-translated Irish Annals to trace the line back reliably >>> to 455 and less reliably earlier. >>> >>> So the ? hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshl?ibhe line were the ruling family of D?l >>> Fiatach back to the time of Patrick. Jerry has another story of how the >>> family got to Louth with the help of the O'Loughlins and O'Carrols, but >>> that >>> is for another time. >>> >>> ========================================================================== >>> >>> Conclusion. >>> >>> With McEvoy's Haugheys and Jerry's work with the Annals and my M222 test >>> and >>> unusual matches, I pretty sure that the D?l Fiatach were M222, at least on >>> the main line. >>> >>> We also know that in tribal societies, the bottom tier doesn't reproduce >>> itself and the top tier over produces. So some people fall down each >>> generation and eventually, on the male line, everyone is related. So if >>> the >>> ruling line is M222, so are all. >>> >>> Gerry Hoy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com >>> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 11:58 PM >>> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 >>> >>> Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui >>> Neill >>> (Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move north into >>> Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin, natives of >>> the >>> territory. I do not know yet if he ties this into the Venicnii of >>> Ptolemy >>> (I only have one chapter copied) but he does mention a Winducatti in the >>> Dunfanaghy area of Donegal which might be the same tribe. Much of his >>> argument is based on Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to 690 AD. He tries >>> to >>> connect the Cenel Conaill to the Ui Eachach Cobha and the Cenel Eoghain >>> to the Dal Fiatach, two familiar tribes from Ulster. In that he seems >>> completely off-base. >>> >>> Can anyone connect M222 to either of these tribes? >>> >>> The Ui Eachach Cobha in particular were said to be Cruithin as an off >>> shoot >>> of the Dal nAraidi. The historical chieftains were the Maguinnes of Co. >>> Down, whose chieftains were I haplogroup according to Patrick Guinness, >>> associated with the Trinity DNA project. If anyone has the slightest >>> idea >>> what Dal Fiatach DNA looks like I haven't heard about it. >>> >>> >>> >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 20:12:31 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<3dad.6b0571ea.3b859bef@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > jerrykelly@irishtribes.com writes: > > But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did not have ready access > to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac > Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through O'Donovan's TRIBES AND > CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY FIACHRACH. After waiting for > 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally published by De B?rca > Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght disagree on a family origin, > I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right. > > The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a while. > Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end. Not for the faint of heart. > > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_ > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm) > > > > I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a copy of O'Hart's Irish > pedigrees open on his desk at all times. I don't know if that's true or > not. It was not comforting to hear. > > > John > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 276 > ****************************************** >