In a message dated 8/19/2011 4:46:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the origins of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the Irish of many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th century really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in answering an emotional question -- which is why is it so important for it to have developed in Ireland? Most DNA experts I'm familiar with believe M222 originated in Ireland. And the reason they think so (in the words of Ken Nordvedt) is "that's where the haplotypes are." Wilson (of EthnoAncestry) said much the samething in a recent book and interview, a small part of which follows: Wilson: This I think is a mark of a movement from Ireland to Scotland at some point in the past, rather long ago, because these are not men with Irish surnames. They have ordinary Scottish surnames that have been in Scotland for hundreds of years. Moffat: In other words were the Gaels either immigrants or were they a native people who spoke Gaelic anyway? Wilson: Well I think that the Gaels of Dal Riata originated in Ireland. And this is because we've discovered and characterized a marker, a DNA marker, so a piece of DNA that varies between individuals which we call M222. This is an incredible marker actually because about 20% of all Irish men carry this Y-chromsome marker. And when we look up into the north to Ulster it's over 40% - so it's extremely common and it shows all these people descend from one man at some point in the past. In this case we think know who the progenitor is. Moffat: Because Nial of the Nine hostages is a figure of some historical substance around 400,500 AD. that means people with his marker in Scotland have moved from Ireland and that's there's been a substantial migration. Wilson: I think that is the case. Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data we willl see that and the case will be closed. That theory is not universally held however. Dr. Faux, also of EthnoAncetry at the time in 2006, said the following about M222 (then called R1b1c7): " 3) R1b1c7 is doubtless a recent mutation on M269 Y-chromosomes and is confined to those whose ancestry is traced to Northwest Ireland (although it may occur elsewhere as a result of migration, or if Spain or France perhps because the first M222 emerged there). The only other relevant theory out there among academics belongs not to DNA but to an Irish mythologist, O' Rahillyh (Early Irish History and Mythology). O'Rahilly believed the Dal Cuinn), ancestors of the Ui Neill and Connachta, were latecomers to Ireland arriving sometime between 300 and 30 BC. He also believed they came not from England or Scotland but from somewhere in Gaul. We\ve discussed this on the list numerous times before. O'Rahilly began his book with a chapter on Ptolemy's map of Ireland. Well over half the tribal names in Ptolemy's map are unidentifiable to modern scholars. There is some agreement of a few of the names, including that of the Ulaidh and Dal Riata in northern Ireland, the Brigantes in Leinster, the Iverni in Munster and a few others. O'"Rahilly found no references to a tribe with the name of Dal Cuinn or anything similar. In fact he said they should have been there by 150 AD. but were not. O'Rahilly discussed every tribal name that appears in Ptolemy's map except for one: the Venicnii.. Why he omitted this name is a mystery. It appears in every version of the map I've seen. In a minor footnote he even mentioned the Venicones of Scotland. O'Rahilly's theories are all wrapped up in linguistic divisions between P and Q Celtic. I have ignored these since few linguists agree with him. When you boil it down to the basics you come away with this: the Dal Cuinn as a tribe came to Ireland from somewhere in Gaul sometime during the Roman era in the British Isles. If you accept the connection between the Dal Cuinn and M222, and the possibility that the Dal Cuinn came from Gaul, then it is logical to assume M222 originated in Gaul and migrated west into the British Isles. Scotland would be the most likely first settlement; but they had boats and could have come to Ireland at about the same time. If anyone knows of any other theories on the origin of the Dal Cuinn now is the time to speak out. John