This I agree with Marie on, there need be more testing, and/or analysis of the testing which has been completed to date. Very often the research data is targeted to the exclusion of other data particularly when large concentrations show in particular areas. Then someone fits things together in their own mind and develops a theory to speak to that. I believe in the entire Nial saga ignored migrations aspect completely. Someone had an emotional need to link the heroes, lore and legend. That is my personal opinion, and I'll admit that I am no geneticist, either; so that remark simply is an opinion, I will acquiesce to being ill informed if anyone can conclusively prove me wrong. Now Ftdna among others have run with it because it is a great way to sell kits, upgrades, and SNP testing. And if we, one or all, turn up to be related to royalty by descent, tagged as such because there are paper genealogies out there that claim without records or citations that XYZ were related to this king previous to the time records were kept, -- you get it -- we are special and then can live vicariously on our new found fame. Excuse my sarcasm here, but some of this really gets me. SUsan On 8/19/2011 3:25 PM, Paul Conroy wrote: > Susan, > > Oh I didn't mean to suggest that they were being excluded in any way. > However all the early press on this haplogroup and it's associated SNP > mentions the O'Neill family and their descendants, and Northern > Ireland and Scotland, so people with no ancestry from these areas > might feel that this project doesn't apply to them at all. > > I think at the very least that the current map on the project page > should state that it just represent the area of greatest currently > known concentration. I'd also like to see the Trinity maps displayed, > and/or any of the other maps produced on other blogs/fora giving a > much more extensive area of coverage. For instance there was a > suggestion on the R-L21 Project some months back that parts of Germany > may be up to 5% M222+, if that's true it changes everything! > > I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among the > Belgae tribes of the Rhine... > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Susan Hedeen > <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > <mailto:chantillycarpets@earthlink.net>> wrote: > > Thank you, Doug, it's nice to be complimented for sharing a bit of > reality and sanity. > > Truly, From this person whose descendant families on 8 sides now have > gone through the rigors of DNA testing, as a McConnaughey who's > ancestors all were all Celtic, not an Anglo or Saxon or > Scandinavian in > the lot -- a full born blue eyed blonde haired American Celtic MUTT, > Marie, I thought we all ventured into these activities to learn some > truths and have intelligent discussions regarding theories and > possibilities, and have a bit of fun rather than be emotionally > territorial about what we think we may know and resort to name > calling > and the like. > > From some of the stuff I 've read on this board, there truly are some > very interesting and intelligent people who contribute from time to > time. Is not one as entitled to his/her own opinions as the next > whether or not anyone or everyone agrees? > > Paul, I don't know why either the representation is not broader. I > haven't been in this group long enough to know, but I actually applied > to join, and I'm wondering if those others who also fall into M222 > either do not know about the group or don't care to join. I agree > with > your premise that it would be good to have broad representation. > > I also belong to the Ireland YDNA project, and there are numerous > individuals in that project who fit the M222 profile who seem to be > naming environs other than Ulster or Scotland. Most of these projects > are elective, so I'm thinking that none are being excluded. > > Hope everyone has a great eve. Susan > > > > On 8/19/2011 10:54 AM, tuulen wrote: > > Hi, Susan, > > > > Great story, and thank you for writing it! > > > > I am M222 and have a surname which could be either Irish or > Scottish, > > and so I fit right into that story, too. > > > > Doug > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Susan Hedeen > > <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > <mailto:chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> > > <mailto:chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > <mailto:chantillycarpets@earthlink.net>>> wrote: > > > > and don't ask for the citations on this as my Celtic descended > > brain is > > as the ancestors more memory and mouth than the written > word-- as > > far as > > keeping bits and pieced of written trivia which may come in > handy at > > times like this. > > > > Let's go back to a couple of premises, that M222 is a Celtic > > signature. > > We are entering into an interesting discussion of the Veneti > of Gaul > > > > Could indeed we be referring to the same tribe known as the > > Galatians -- > > the famous Galatians who set up camp in Turkey after > attempting to > > conquer Greece and well aware also of Roman Power. > > > > Let's extrapolate a bit with some of the other legends > involving these > > Celts. One of Brits best known resources at the time was > tin, and tin > > mining and trade was going on prior to the Roman conquest. What > > was the > > best mode of transport? Boat. > > > > These tribes were feudal and cooperative, and according to some > > literature had some fairly vast trade routes among > themselves that > > extended in time also previous to the Roman conquest. > > > > M222 was not restricted to NW Ireland and lowland Scotland; > however at > > this juncture in time (the genetic DNA testing era) the > testing pool > > reveals the highest concentration from tested subjects who > either yet > > reside in those environs or claim those environs as their > genealogical > > point of origin -- that place of their anecdotal family > stories -- > > that > > place from which their oldest know ancestor came from. > > > > There are remnants of it, however coming from those who > claim other > > environs as their ancestral homes: Switzerland, France, and > more also > > places where these Celtic tribes had settlements and trade > routes. > > > > What do people do at times when extinction seems a > possibility? They > > MIGRATE. The more remote the location generally the longer they > > settle > > provided they can manage enough food to survive. What do > they do when > > the environs they migrate to become over populated and > sustaining the > > increased population becomes difficult? A portion of the > population > > breaks off and MIGRATES. Do they lose sight of one another? > Over > > time; > > however in the short term they help one another in Trade. > > > > These themes are common among the various Celtic tribes. > Where is the > > last bastion of migration? Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Briton. > > Where yet > > are the highest concentrations? The more remote of those > locations. > > > > Did M222 form up in Ireland? I agree with Bill, I don't > think so, but > > it flourished there. Did it form up in Scotland? I'd suggest > > previous > > to that. The flow between Scotland and Ireland was steady and > > back and > > forth. Deciding that question is like the chicken and the > egg. Even > > those tribes said to be indigenous migrated in, but because > they were > > there when the next bunch of migrants marched in, they then > became > > indigenous. > > > > Why are the concentrations today so much higher in Ireland than > > anywhere > > else statistically? Think about the migration stories > again. We know > > that they migrated back and forth between Ireland and > Scotland in > > addition to raiding, trading wives and all the like in all > the various > > lore and legends. Where was the last place the Scots who bailed > > out to > > at the time the English were dissolving the clans? They went to > > Ulster. Where did the go after that? The American > Colonies, Canada, > > Australia, New Zealand -- and some stayed in Ulster along > side of > > their > > ancient ancestral tribes long forgotten as such. > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > <mailto:DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com> > > <mailto:DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > <mailto:DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com>> with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > > the message > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > <mailto:DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com> with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > the message > >

> > I believe in the entire Nial saga ignored migrations aspect completely. > Someone had an emotional need to link the heroes, lore and legend. That > is my personal opinion, and I'll admit that I am no geneticist, either; > so that remark simply is an opinion, I will acquiesce to being ill > informed if anyone can conclusively prove me wrong. > Surely migration is an aspect, however I think reference to the Nial Saga (name of an actual Norse saga) ignores the written tradition of Ireland that began in the 5th century. In Ireland we are dealing with the third oldest written history in Europe. Hence the movement of the people of claim descent from Neill is well document and publish in numerous academic works, such as Prof. Brynes "Irish Kings and High kings". Writers like Beresford point out the vast majority of Irish manuscripts remain un-translated and it seem un-transcribed.