Perhaps one of the best cases for West to East migration is Colum Cille (gaelic Dove of the Chuch, Iona - Hebrew Dove & Latin Columba Dove). I tried to put down my purported connection. Unfortunately the arrows did not transfer!!! So sorry. Adomnan (founder of Dull Monastery in Atholl) 7th century states Columba was the son of Feidlimid, and great grandson of Conall Gulban. We know he went to Iona ~ 563 AD and the Kindred of Columba (12 men who went with him, although a couple on his mother's side) were the ancestors of Clan Donnachaidh in the Atholl, part of Perth. These early Abbots married & had children in the kindred. I have Crinan (Kindred of Columba) to Alexander Robertson (who started the Reid sept ~ 1450 AD) straight back to Cenell Conaill. This is classic West to East from Donegal. As to the 2 epicenters of M222 in Ireland, my thoughts are that one was from the northern Ui Neills (16.7% Trinity study) and the other from the brothers of Niall at Connacht (10% epicenter Trinity study). No other epicenters in Europe. L21 ~ 4000 years ago in Gaul (France?0 and M269 ~ 6000 years ago around Causasus. M222 around 1500-2000 years ago NW Ireland. That the M222 did not start with Niall is evident, as his brothers present day clans carry M222. Thus Muighmheadoin could have been the earliest progenitor, but could be a few generations back in NW Ireland. That Niall spread the marker logarithmicly as did Ghenghis Khan (who like Niall was not the progenitor of his marker) was brought about by prestige & position as the Trinity report cites. As we know Columba was celibate but his kindred started the abbeys in Atholl and I am probably off of Crinan ancestry (Montcreiffe & Skeene - Crinan ancestor of Conall Gulban). I see no East to West from Scotland movement in Clan Donnachaidh or no steady state Ireland & Scotland modal as viewed by Campbell & some archaeologists. I think O'Rially's theory is quite plausible with the Q Celts. We know that Adomnan mentioned no Gaels in St Columbas' wanderings in Pictland but needed interpreters. So in my case, I got a good feeling about coming through Niall as do other Robertsons, Duncans & Reids who carry the M222 marker. Direct Paternal Ancestry of Robert Reid Y-Chromosome R-M222 SNP Eochaidh Muighmheadoin Son of Muiredach Tireach, King of Meath Niall Noigiallachd. C455 AD Niall of the Nine Hostages Conall Gulban progenitor of the Cenél Conaill, King of Tir Conaill d. 464 AD Fergus Cendfota son of Conall Gulban ‘Kindred’ of Colum Cille (Columba) Sons of Fergus Cendfota: Sétnae, Feidlimid, Brénainn, Ninnad. All four sons produced Abbots of Iona. St Columba celibate, son of Feidlimid Abbots of Iona 563 – 700 AD Lugaid (Cenel Lugdech)? son of Sétnae, conjectured by Sir Iain Moncreiffe as ancestor of Clan Donnachaidh Abbots of Dull & Dunkeld, Atholl, Perthshire, Scotland 700-1000 AD – direct paternal lineal descent fron Conall Gulban Duncan, Abthane of Dule, abbot of Dunkeld and Governor of Strathclyde b c920 AD Duncan, mormaer of Atholl and Abthane of Dule, killed 1010 AD at Battle of Mortlach where Malcolm II King of Scots defeated invading Norsemaen Crinan, Abbot of Dunkeld & Earl of Atholl d. 1045. Progenitor of Clan Donnachaid Duncan I MacCrinan, King of Scotland d. 1040 AD killed at Burghead. Mael Muire (Melmare) Mormaer of Atholl appointed c1100 AD Madach (Madadd) 1st Earl of Atholl d. 1145 AD Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl m. c1165 AD to Hextilda Duncan 3rd son of Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl Madach of Clunes (probable male line to Earls of Atholl) researcher Godon MacGregor) Andrew de Atholia Duncan de Atholia d. 1355 AD Patrick de Atholia, First of Lude Alexander Reid of Strathloch, descendants called Baron Rua “Reid” Baron Reids - descendants in Strathloch, Perthshire, Scotland c1500 - 1750 Industrial Revolution movement from Perth to Renfrewshire Mathew Reid – resided in Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland 1839 Thomas Reid – b. 1839 Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland William Thomson Reid - b. 1869 Coatbridge, Lanarkshire, Scotland Thomas Reid - b. 1896 Longriggrend, Lanarkshire, Scotland Daniel Michael Reid - b. 1922 Youngstown, Ohio Robert Reid - b. 1949 Youngstown, Ohio -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 1:56 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 Today's Topics: 1. Re: j (Lochlan@aol.com) 2. Re: just to throw in another legend (Lochlan@aol.com) 3. Re: Speculations on Celtric Tribes (Bernard Morgan) 4. Re: j (Lochlan@aol.com) 5. Re: just to throw in another legend (Lochlan@aol.com) 6. Re: Venicones (Lochlan@aol.com) 7. M222 in Donegal (Lochlan@aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:08:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] j To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <28c8c.535684e6.3b807128@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 8/19/2011 4:46:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the origins of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the Irish of many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th century really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in answering an emotional question -- which is why is it so important for it to have developed in Ireland? Most DNA experts I'm familiar with believe M222 originated in Ireland. And the reason they think so (in the words of Ken Nordvedt) is "that's where the haplotypes are." Wilson (of EthnoAncestry) said much the samething in a recent book and interview, a small part of which follows: Wilson: This I think is a mark of a movement from Ireland to Scotland at some point in the past, rather long ago, because these are not men with Irish surnames. They have ordinary Scottish surnames that have been in Scotland for hundreds of years. Moffat: In other words were the Gaels either immigrants or were they a native people who spoke Gaelic anyway? Wilson: Well I think that the Gaels of Dal Riata originated in Ireland. And this is because we've discovered and characterized a marker, a DNA marker, so a piece of DNA that varies between individuals which we call M222. This is an incredible marker actually because about 20% of all Irish men carry this Y-chromsome marker. And when we look up into the north to Ulster it's over 40% - so it's extremely common and it shows all these people descend from one man at some point in the past. In this case we think know who the progenitor is. Moffat: Because Nial of the Nine hostages is a figure of some historical substance around 400,500 AD. that means people with his marker in Scotland have moved from Ireland and that's there's been a substantial migration. Wilson: I think that is the case. Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data we willl see that and the case will be closed. That theory is not universally held however. Dr. Faux, also of EthnoAncetry at the time in 2006, said the following about M222 (then called R1b1c7): " 3) R1b1c7 is doubtless a recent mutation on M269 Y-chromosomes and is confined to those whose ancestry is traced to Northwest Ireland (although it may occur elsewhere as a result of migration, or if Spain or France perhps because the first M222 emerged there). The only other relevant theory out there among academics belongs not to DNA but to an Irish mythologist, O' Rahillyh (Early Irish History and Mythology). O'Rahilly believed the Dal Cuinn), ancestors of the Ui Neill and Connachta, were latecomers to Ireland arriving sometime between 300 and 30 BC. He also believed they came not from England or Scotland but from somewhere in Gaul. We\ve discussed this on the list numerous times before. O'Rahilly began his book with a chapter on Ptolemy's map of Ireland. Well over half the tribal names in Ptolemy's map are unidentifiable to modern scholars. There is some agreement of a few of the names, including that of the Ulaidh and Dal Riata in northern Ireland, the Brigantes in Leinster, the Iverni in Munster and a few others. O'"Rahilly found no references to a tribe with the name of Dal Cuinn or anything similar. In fact he said they should have been there by 150 AD. but were not. O'Rahilly discussed every tribal name that appears in Ptolemy's map except for one: the Venicnii.. Why he omitted this name is a mystery. It appears in every version of the map I've seen. In a minor footnote he even mentioned the Venicones of Scotland. O'Rahilly's theories are all wrapped up in linguistic divisions between P and Q Celtic. I have ignored these since few linguists agree with him. When you boil it down to the basics you come away with this: the Dal Cuinn as a tribe came to Ireland from somewhere in Gaul sometime during the Roman era in the British Isles. If you accept the connection between the Dal Cuinn and M222, and the possibility that the Dal Cuinn came from Gaul, then it is logical to assume M222 originated in Gaul and migrated west into the British Isles. Scotland would be the most likely first settlement; but they had boats and could have come to Ireland at about the same time. If anyone knows of any other theories on the origin of the Dal Cuinn now is the time to speak out. John ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:14:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <28ea2.3cbfdf68.3b807289@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 8/19/2011 5:43:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cjl315@comcast.net writes: Is there any belief that M-222 may have come to Ireland with the Laigin? There is a DNA signature associated with the Lagin of Leinster but its not M222. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm) John ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 03:17:45 +0000 From: Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Speculations on Celtric Tribes To: <craig@mckie.ca>, dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <SNT128-W26919190363AA1F34ECBF6BB2D0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Let follow some of Craig's words > Isolated individuals did not prosper or indeed long survive in the late Neolithic and the early Middle Ages. In Ireland the basic unit of society was the derbfhine (or variant), comprising all the patrilineal descendants over a four-generation group, i.e., back to common great-grandfather. The derbfhine held typical five or four rath/tech i.e. homesteads, which formed a Baile. Twenty Baile form a Tuath or Tricha Cet, the basic kingdom level. Population remains constant until such things as agricultural improvements; therefore population growth is a constant sum game, i.e. if the M222+ population expansion is at the expense of someone else?s male descendants. M222 population could expand territorially, however you have to wars and tribal politics, so a simpler method is to push the weaker members of the tribe to the edges. Smith shows this his book "Celtic Leinster". So non-M222 population is forced to marginal land or contested frontier, and so are in decline. (Probably also there male access to reproduction was a constant sum game to, won by those with great recourses.) How this applies to M222? Well M222 would have grown in a clump for mutual support and when large enough a clump breaks away and form new colonies. This organic grow is what is described in the branching pedigrees and the geographical movements can be followed in the annals. Hence have the information to know who should be M222 (if telling the truth) due to tribal claims. In Scotland this lack the annals its harder, yet there are Gaelic tribal descriptions. However the Clan confederation dominates our understanding of Scotland. Without the history and genealogical records we know little about origin of the Gall-Gael. I think the fundamental issue with Scotland is that no one have yet written the Gaelic history of Scotland, or as the Scots would have described it, the Irish history of Scotland?. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:21:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] j To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <702de.6e38541f.3b809e6e@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" In a message dated 8/19/2011 7:54:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, donmilligan@comcast.net writes: I understand there are some histories of Wales, written in the early 1900,that indicated some Irish raiders from the east central coast of Ireland came into Wales and some of them settled in Wales. Some of these Irish raiders were likely Celtic M-222+. Their descendants mixed in with the Welsh Celts, and spread all the way into northern England, southern Scotland, and northeastern Scotland. There's a fair amount about that in the literature. Google flight of the Deisi to find some of it. There aren't many specific Irish tribes named though. I think the Ui Liathain are another. There are also notices of a northern British tribe returning to northern Wales to throw out the Irish kings. And in Irish sources a statement that the Irish kings spent as much time in Wales as in Ireland. Nothing specific though. Nothing to tie in with M222 although you can't rule it out. The following is from Wikipedia: " The U? Liath?in are known from both Irish and _British_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) sources, respectively the _Sanas Cormaic_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic) _[4]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-3) _[5]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-4) and _Historia Brittonum_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Brittonum) ,_[6]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-5) to have had colonies in _Wales_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales) and _Cornwall_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall) . According to the Historia Brittonum they were driven out of _North Wales_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Wales) by _Cunedda_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunedda) and his sons._[7]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-6) Alongside the U? Liath?in in this region of Britain were a significant force of the so-called _D?isi_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D?isi) , whose story is told in the famous _Expulsion of the D?isi_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_D?isi) already mentioned above,_[8]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-7) as well as a smaller population of the _Laigin_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin) . Neither are specifically connected to the U? Liath?in, or connected to each other, in any of the Irish sources, but collaboration can certainly not be ruled out, especially in matters relating to trade, including the slave trade. The D?isi Muman lived adjacent to them in the neighboring _County Waterford_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Waterford) and the Laigin could be found not much farther east in the Kingdom of _Leinster_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster) . The U? Liath?in can, however, be associated easily with their apparent relation _Crimthann mac Fidaig_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimthann_mac_Fidaig) , the legendary _King of Munster_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Munster) and dominant _High King of Ireland_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland) of the 4th century. They are mentioned not only in the same passage in the Sanas Cormaic,_[9]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-8) _[10]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-9) but are close relations in all the earliest genealogical manuscripts. In a 1926 paper, _Eoin MacNeill_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoin_MacNeill) discusses the movements of the U? Liath?in at considerable length, arguing their leadership in the South Irish conquests and founding of the later dynasty of _Brycheiniog_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brycheiniog) , figures in the Welsh genealogies matching U? Liath?in dynasts in the Irish genealogies. He argues any possible settlement of the D?isi would have been subordinate until the ousting of the U? Liath?in by the sons of Cunedda. The founder of Brycheiniog, _Brychan_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brychan) , is in all probability the early dynast Macc Brocc (for whom see below), while the name Braccan also occurs early in the pedigrees of the U? Fidgenti and U? Dedaid, close kindred of the U? Liath?in. MacNeill further associates this with the sovereignty in Ireland and conquests in Britain of their cousin germane, the monarch Crimthann mac Fidaig._[11]_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-10) John ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:28:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <703c6.745b14e5.3b80a009@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, pconroy63@gmail.com writes: I think at the very least that the current map on the project page should state that it just represent the area of greatest currently known concentration. I'd also like to see the Trinity maps displayed, and/or any of the other maps produced on other blogs/fora giving a much more extensive area of coverage. For instance there was a suggestion on the R-L21 Project some months back that parts of Germany may be up to 5% M222+, if that's true it changes everything! I put the Trinity M222 distribution map online. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg) There is no other such map available that I know of. As to German M222 there are quite a few in the databases. I just posted an old list I compiled years ago the other day in response to someone who told me he was Scandinavian M222. I haven't been able to update this list in the last few years. Ysearch times out after about 500 entries now. John ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:40:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <7054d.78aa4b40.3b80a2e8@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 8/19/2011 9:43:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: What family names in Westmeath (the center of the southern Ui Neill power) were tested for M222 in the Trinity report? The names Trinity tested can be found in their article _A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland (Trinity)_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/gael.pdf) and in the various spreadsheets they released to the public. They also did a limited further sampling of possible M222 surnames but kept the surnames tested confidential. I also heard from several Kavanghs who said they were tested by Trinity but the surname does not appear in any database released. Their website and data files are still online even though the project is over. _http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php_ (http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php) John ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:55:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Lochlan@aol.com Subject: [R-M222] M222 in Donegal To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com, r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <7071e.6a457edf.3b80a64b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I received an email from a co-admin of the Ireland DNA project on the subject of the Venicnii in Donegal. " " I read a book last year called: "Cen?l Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800" by Brian Lacey of the Discovery project. It was published in 2006 before the publicity about M222 hit the wires. His theory was that the C?nel Conaill/C?nel Eoghain were actually indigenous to Donegal and that they had written themselves into history as Northern U? N?ill for political reasons. Obviously the presence of M222 seems to negate this theory. But perhaps there's some truth in argument that some of the U? N?ill were already "Donegal natives" by time that we reckon Niall lived. In other words carried M222 -- just as men carrying U? Fiachrach and U? Bri?in names have tested M222+ Either way it's quite an interesting book as it covers the entire of Donegal during this period with mentions of the "Sean Tuatha" (the old tribes etc.). For example he theorises that the Cen?l Lughaidh of West Donegal name actually reflects a connection to the god Lugh (they control area around Tory island on coast), but in christian times it was refactor to be descent from man called Lughaidh who is put down as a cousin of Colmcille. Fair bit in way of genealogies mention from annals etc. _http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784_ (http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784) I haven't read this book myself but I have access to it in a library here. Here's a review someone posed on Amazon.com. I might take a look at it myself. "Brian Lacey offers an in-depth study of the Cenel Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms 500-800 AD. The text has many b&w ilustrations and maps. The study is quite in-depth for the common layman but presented well. The author has strong opinions about the origin & genealogy of the Cenel Conaill but does not present a compelling argument in regards to his theory that Conall Gulban was not a son of Niall Noigiallach. I would have thought the author would have had more compelling evidence on Gulban than thus presented and was not swayed by his opinion and concur with the established Gulban genealogy back to Niall, although tenuous at best. In regards to Niall of the Nine Hostages not being the progenitor of the R-M222 genetic marker, I concur. Dr. Ken Nordtveldt calculates the MCCA of R-M222 at 1740 years ago in 2008. That computes to 268 AD, much earlier than Niall's supposed reign of 379 - 405 AD (more recent up to 455 AD). Of course this does not take into account a variance or standard deviation which was not computed. This places the progenitor possibly being Niall's father to up to his great-great grandfather (Caibre Maccormac d. 284). It is suggested that the progenitor may be a Cruithin Prince. This is unlikely as Niall's two brothers (Brion & Friachrae) through their respective descendents carry the R-M222 marker. Thus one of Niall's paternal ancestors most likely had the mutation. Anyway, Niall likely contributed most heavily to the marker since he was still pagan and had multiple concubines. Overall, a very well researched and scholarly presentation. However, the author's refudiation of some of the sons of Niall as not belonging to his lineage is at best weak and does not concur with the earlier records. In addition, recent R-M222 haplogroup DNA findings of surnames associated with Conall Gulban and the Ui Neill associated clans refute such suppositions presented by the author. " John ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 ******************************************