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    1. [R-M222] NEW THREAD DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 256
    2. Susan Hedeen

    3. Indeed, this is what they say. It does seem a bit more complicated than all of that, too which is all evidenced now by the M222 dna of the 14 McC's who have tested under the Clan Donnachaidh project. 11 of the 15 fall into 3 separate M222 groups: M222 Group A --Presently the largest group includes the 1 off model 392 = 15, 389-2 = 28. This group of 5 also includes 1 current resident of Antrim (anecdotal stories of this family include migration of 3 brothers from Isle of Bute to Antrim during the plantation days). 2 (of this group of 5) immigrant ancestors hopped the pond to PA during the mid-1700's, while immigration time of the other two is unknown to the project. There are 5 variant spellings in this group of 5 (although with this name one should never classify by spelling). Of the 5 the off model signature appears to be the oldest. M222 Group B Presently has 2 tested members and 2 spellings. 1 of the two appears to have a signature older than the Nial group of 4 and older than the A group of 5. Group A & B quite probably intersected in the ancient past. M222 Nial Group has 4 tested members and 2 variant spellings considered classically and exclusively Scot spellings of McConkey and McConchie. This Nial group isn't even remotely related to the other 7 M222, although there may be an intersection with the oldest of the Group B signatures even farther back than that intersection with group A -- maybe. As previously mentioned, it appears that one of the M222 group B signatures is oldest among these M222. 2 different phylogenetic trees using two different analytical models have been applied to these M222 McCs with the results about the same. The other 3 McC's of this project fall into 3 separate groups: 1 is an R1b which is probably M222 but only 12 markers tested, and it could be an on site Scotland sample as the project is actively testing in both Ireland and Scotland. 1 other McC is E1b1b1 male progenitor probably Roman, none the less the issue were associated with one of the later known clans. 1 other Mcc is I1 and has a signature similar to some I1 Robertson(s) in the project. No genealogical relatedness has been identified among any of the McC's in the project, and several have their genealogies solid back into the 1st quarter of the 1700's. Now of further interest is the fact that McC M222 group A intersects with Duncan Group B (also M222) of the Donnachaidh project. There are too many close matches to count. This group consists of about 36/7 Duncan, several Ashly, a couple of Davis (probably originally Davisson of Davidson), Lawson, McAinich, McKinney, Gallagher, Mann, Murphy, and others and if I missed any not intentional. The McC's are interesting because as Mr. Ashley's note suggests the name is affiliated with several clans and what the victorian era decided to classify as septs. Those of the name marched with the Bruce, held leadership positions in both Campbell and Robertson, held the deed to Isle of Bute for over 300 years, and fled to (or back to) Ireland during the 1600's remaining there to immigrate out. It is interesting presently among the M222 definitions as well due to the fact that of the very small testing pool of 14 thus far 11 are M222 but fall into 3 separate M222 groups. Statistically, I believe this could be useful. I've been trying to sell that idea to John & Bill for further research, but they have not become interested yet. Some McCs also remained in Scotland post plantation years to Immigrate out or be transported out by the English during the 1700's as they were annihilating the clan system. The name is yet prevalent in both Ireland and Scotland today yet as a surname much in the minority to the more popular versions more anglicized such as Duncan which is actually a Saxon derivative, Robertson, Reid, etc -- and surname usage is another topic. Hard to find any 2 McCs who spell their name the same sometimes even in the same genetically related family. Susan On 8/20/2011 8:48 AM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in > Pittsburgh (GAshley923@aol.com) > 2. Re: A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library > in Pittsburgh (tuulen) > 3. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 M222 (Robert Reid) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 07:11:42 EDT > From: GAshley923@aol.com > Subject: [R-M222] A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie > Library in Pittsburgh > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<136c3.6491a871.3b80f06e@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > The history of this ancient Perthshire family traces its ancestry as a > family of > Dalriadian origin before the year 1100 and appears first in the ancient > records > in Perthshire. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in > Pittsburgh, gives the following information on the name: (please forgive > me for > not keeping the book name for reference) ???The MacConaghy, MacConkey, > MacDonagh, > Donaghy and Duncan names all stem from the Scots and Irish Gaelic personal > name > Donnchadh, meaning ???brown warrior??? (from donn and cath). This gives > the personal > names Donagh in Ireland and Duncan in Scotland. In Ireland, the MacDonaghs, > Gaelic Mac Donnchadha, are most numerous in Connacht where they are a > branch of > the MacDermots. A variant of MacDonagh in counties Tyrone and Derry is Mac > Donnchaidh, which was anglicised first to MacDonaghy and then Donaghy. In > Co > Fermanagh, it is thought that most Donaghys descent from Donnchadh Ceallach > Maguire, who led the Maguire conquest of Clakelly in the mid-fifteenth > century. > However, the Scottich Clan Robertson of Atholl in Perthshire was equally > well > known as Clan Donnachie, Gaelic Clann Donnchaidh, after its chief Fat > Duncan > (Donncha Reamhar) de Atholia who lived at the time of Robert the Bruce in > the > fourteenth century and led the clan at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. > The > MacConachies (also MacConaghy and MacConkey) were a sept of Clan Robertson, > their family name in Gaelic being Mac Dhonnchaidh. (the ???h??? after > the ???D??? makes > it silent, thus sounding as Mac???onachie.) Also, after the 1745 > rebellion, many > members of Clan Robertson adopted the name Donachie to conceal their > identity. > There were also several MacConochie septs of Clan Campbell, one of which, > the > MacConachies of Inverawe in Argyllshire, descend from the > fourteenth-century > Duncan or Donachie Campbell of Lochow. The Clan Gregor MacConachies > descend from > the three sons of Duncan, seventeenth chief of MacGregor, by his second > wife. > There was also an old sept of Macconachies on the island of Bute. In > Ulster all > this becomes very complicated. As has already been stated, Donaghy is also > an > Irish name. Duncan, though a Scottish name used as an aglicisation of > Donachie > and MacConachie, has also in Ulster been used for the Irish Donaghy, as > well as > Donegan and Dinkin. MacConaghy has been noted as a synonym for Conaty, > MacConaughty, MacConnerty and even Quinn. > Within Ulster, MacConaghy and MacConkey are mostly found in Co. Antrim. > Donaghy > is most common in counties Antrim, Derry and Tyrone and Duncan in counties > Antrim and Tyrone. MacDonagh is most numerous in Fermanagh.??? > Some McConnaghy???s believe themselves to be Irish, some consider > themselves > Scotch. My theory is that, obviously, we can be either or both, > considering that > the area called Ulster included both Scotland and Ireland in ancient > times, and > MacConahy???s and variants are found across that land. Not to mention > that many > moved from Ireland to Scotland to escape certain wars. I think it is safer > to > say Scotch-Irish for most of us. > Some variations of our name include: McConnaughey, McConnaughay, > McConaughy, > McConnaughhay, McConahy, McConnahie, McConaha, McConahay, McConahea, > MacConahie, > MacConaghy, McConaghy, McConnaghy, McConaty, McConnaghty, McConachie, > McConaghy, > McConaghie, McConaughey, McConahey, McConahe, etc. > This variety of spellings, above, does not confine itself to one particular > family. Indeed, any one particular McConnaughy family, could be found > under half > a dozen or more spellings, so it is no good insisting that a name was > always > spelled a certain way. People often could not read or write, so had no > idea how > to spell their own name. It depended on the whim, or knowledge of the > scribe who > wrote it down, as to how it might be spelled. > Should any of you have additional information on the name, or your > particular > spelling, please pass along the information so that we can share it in a > future > newsletter > > > _http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html_ > (http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:48:19 -0400 > From: tuulen<tuulen@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie > Library in Pittsburgh > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: > <CABbuToz9TDhhkcKgySwfQPFOsa3ZdoOX3gBjOZ2O17iSa=3aHA@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Hi, > > Your name is Ashley? My maternal grandmother's name was Ashley, from New > Bedford, Massachusetts. > > Doug > > > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:11 AM,<GAshley923@aol.com> wrote: > >> The history of this ancient Perthshire family traces its ancestry as a >> family of >> Dalriadian origin before the year 1100 and appears first in the ancient >> records >> in Perthshire. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in >> Pittsburgh, gives the following information on the name: (please forgive >> me for >> not keeping the book name for reference) ???The MacConaghy, MacConkey, >> MacDonagh, >> Donaghy and Duncan names all stem from the Scots and Irish Gaelic personal >> name >> Donnchadh, meaning ???brown warrior??? (from donn and cath). This gives >> the personal >> names Donagh in Ireland and Duncan in Scotland. In Ireland, the >> MacDonaghs, >> Gaelic Mac Donnchadha, are most numerous in Connacht where they are a >> branch of >> the MacDermots. A variant of MacDonagh in counties Tyrone and Derry is Mac >> Donnchaidh, which was anglicised first to MacDonaghy and then Donaghy. In >> Co >> Fermanagh, it is thought that most Donaghys descent from Donnchadh >> Ceallach >> Maguire, who led the Maguire conquest of Clakelly in the mid-fifteenth >> century. >> However, the Scottich Clan Robertson of Atholl in Perthshire was equally >> well >> known as Clan Donnachie, Gaelic Clann Donnchaidh, after its chief Fat >> Duncan >> (Donncha Reamhar) de Atholia who lived at the time of Robert the Bruce in >> the >> fourteenth century and led the clan at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. >> The >> MacConachies (also MacConaghy and MacConkey) were a sept of Clan >> Robertson, >> their family name in Gaelic being Mac Dhonnchaidh. (the ???h??? after >> the ???D??? makes >> it silent, thus sounding as Mac???onachie.) Also, after the 1745 >> rebellion, many >> members of Clan Robertson adopted the name Donachie to conceal their >> identity. >> There were also several MacConochie septs of Clan Campbell, one of which, >> the >> MacConachies of Inverawe in Argyllshire, descend from the >> fourteenth-century >> Duncan or Donachie Campbell of Lochow. The Clan Gregor MacConachies >> descend from >> the three sons of Duncan, seventeenth chief of MacGregor, by his second >> wife. >> There was also an old sept of Macconachies on the island of Bute. In >> Ulster all >> this becomes very complicated. As has already been stated, Donaghy is also >> an >> Irish name. Duncan, though a Scottish name used as an aglicisation of >> Donachie >> and MacConachie, has also in Ulster been used for the Irish Donaghy, as >> well as >> Donegan and Dinkin. MacConaghy has been noted as a synonym for Conaty, >> MacConaughty, MacConnerty and even Quinn. >> Within Ulster, MacConaghy and MacConkey are mostly found in Co. Antrim. >> Donaghy >> is most common in counties Antrim, Derry and Tyrone and Duncan in counties >> Antrim and Tyrone. MacDonagh is most numerous in Fermanagh.?? >> Some McConnaghy???s believe themselves to be Irish, some consider >> themselves >> Scotch. My theory is that, obviously, we can be either or both, >> considering that >> the area called Ulster included both Scotland and Ireland in ancient >> times, and >> MacConahy???s and variants are found across that land. Not to mention >> that many >> moved from Ireland to Scotland to escape certain wars. I think it is safer >> to >> say Scotch-Irish for most of us. >> Some variations of our name include: McConnaughey, McConnaughay, >> McConaughy, >> McConnaughhay, McConahy, McConnahie, McConaha, McConahay, McConahea, >> MacConahie, >> MacConaghy, McConaghy, McConnaghy, McConaty, McConnaghty, McConachie, >> McConaghy, >> McConaghie, McConaughey, McConahey, McConahe, etc. >> This variety of spellings, above, does not confine itself to one >> particular >> family. Indeed, any one particular McConnaughy family, could be found >> under half >> a dozen or more spellings, so it is no good insisting that a name was >> always >> spelled a certain way. People often could not read or write, so had no >> idea how >> to spell their own name. It depended on the whim, or knowledge of the >> scribe who >> wrote it down, as to how it might be spelled. >> Should any of you have additional information on the name, or your >> particular >> spelling, please pass along the information so that we can share it in a >> future >> newsletter >> >> >> _http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html_ >> (http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html) >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:48:41 -0400 > From: "Robert Reid"<rreid002@insight.rr.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 M222 > To:<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<000301cc5f37$7d8526e0$788f74a0$@insight.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Perhaps one of the best cases for West to East migration is Colum Cille > (gaelic Dove of the Chuch, Iona - Hebrew Dove& Latin Columba Dove). I tried > to put down my purported connection. Unfortunately the arrows did not > transfer!!! So sorry. Adomnan (founder of Dull Monastery in Atholl) 7th > century states Columba was the son of Feidlimid, and great grandson of > Conall Gulban. We know he went to Iona ~ 563 AD and the Kindred of Columba > (12 men who went with him, although a couple on his mother's side) were the > ancestors of Clan Donnachaidh in the Atholl, part of Perth. These early > Abbots married& had children in the kindred. I have Crinan (Kindred of > Columba) to Alexander Robertson (who started the Reid sept ~ 1450 AD) > straight back to Cenell Conaill. This is classic West to East from Donegal. > As to the 2 epicenters of M222 in Ireland, my thoughts are that one was from > the northern Ui Neills (16.7% Trinity study) and the other from the brothers > of Niall at Connacht (10% epicenter Trinity study). No other epicenters in > Europe. L21 ~ 4000 years ago in Gaul (France?0 and M269 ~ 6000 years ago > around Causasus. M222 around 1500-2000 years ago NW Ireland. That the M222 > did not start with Niall is evident, as his brothers present day clans carry > M222. Thus Muighmheadoin could have been the earliest progenitor, but could > be a few generations back in NW Ireland. That Niall spread the marker > logarithmicly as did Ghenghis Khan (who like Niall was not the progenitor of > his marker) was brought about by prestige& position as the Trinity report > cites. As we know Columba was celibate but his kindred started the abbeys in > Atholl and I am probably off of Crinan ancestry (Montcreiffe& Skeene - > Crinan ancestor of Conall Gulban). I see no East to West from Scotland > movement in Clan Donnachaidh or no steady state Ireland& Scotland modal as > viewed by Campbell& some archaeologists. I think O'Rially's theory is quite > plausible with the Q Celts. We know that Adomnan mentioned no Gaels in St > Columbas' wanderings in Pictland but needed interpreters. So in my case, I > got a good feeling about coming through Niall as do other Robertsons, > Duncans& Reids who carry the M222 marker. > > > > Direct Paternal Ancestry of Robert Reid Y-Chromosome R-M222 SNP > > Eochaidh Muighmheadoin Son of Muiredach Tireach, King of Meath > > > Niall Noigiallachd. C455 AD Niall of the Nine Hostages > > Conall Gulban progenitor of the Cen?l Conaill, King of Tir Conaill d. 464 AD > > > Fergus Cendfota son of Conall Gulban > > > ?Kindred? of Colum Cille (Columba) > Sons of Fergus Cendfota: S?tnae, Feidlimid, Br?nainn, Ninnad. All four sons > produced Abbots of Iona. St Columba celibate, son of Feidlimid Abbots of > Iona 563 ? 700 AD > > > Lugaid (Cenel Lugdech)? son of S?tnae, conjectured by Sir Iain Moncreiffe as > ancestor > of Clan Donnachaidh > > Abbots of Dull& Dunkeld, Atholl, Perthshire, Scotland 700-1000 AD ? direct > paternal lineal descent fron Conall Gulban > > > Duncan, Abthane of Dule, abbot of Dunkeld and Governor of Strathclyde b c920 > AD > > > Duncan, mormaer of Atholl and Abthane of Dule, killed 1010 AD at Battle of > Mortlach > where Malcolm II King of Scots > defeated invading Norsemaen > > Crinan, Abbot of Dunkeld& Earl of Atholl d. 1045. Progenitor of Clan > Donnachaid > > > Duncan I MacCrinan, King of Scotland d. 1040 AD killed at > Burghead. > > Mael Muire (Melmare) Mormaer of Atholl appointed c1100 AD > > Madach (Madadd) 1st Earl of Atholl d. 1145 AD > Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl m. c1165 AD to Hextilda > > Duncan 3rd son of Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl > > Madach of Clunes (probable male line to Earls of Atholl) > researcher Godon MacGregor) > > Andrew de Atholia > > Duncan de Atholia d. 1355 AD > > Patrick de Atholia, First of Lude > > Alexander Reid of Strathloch, descendants called Baron Rua > ?Reid? > > Baron Reids - descendants in Strathloch, Perthshire, > Scotland c1500 - 1750 > > Industrial Revolution movement from Perth to Renfrewshire > > Mathew Reid ? resided in Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland > 1839 > > > Thomas Reid ? b. 1839 Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland > > > William Thomson Reid - b. 1869 Coatbridge, Lanarkshire, Scotland > > Thomas Reid - b. 1896 Longriggrend, Lanarkshire, Scotland > > Daniel Michael Reid - b. 1922 Youngstown, Ohio > > Robert Reid - b. 1949 Youngstown, Ohio > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 1:56 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: j (Lochlan@aol.com) > 2. Re: just to throw in another legend (Lochlan@aol.com) > 3. Re: Speculations on Celtric Tribes (Bernard Morgan) > 4. Re: j (Lochlan@aol.com) > 5. Re: just to throw in another legend (Lochlan@aol.com) > 6. Re: Venicones (Lochlan@aol.com) > 7. M222 in Donegal (Lochlan@aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:08:40 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] j > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<28c8c.535684e6.3b807128@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 4:46:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: > > All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the origins > of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the Irish of > many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th century > really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in answering an > emotional question -- which is why is it so important for it to have > developed in Ireland? > > Most DNA experts I'm familiar with believe M222 originated in Ireland. > And the reason they think so (in the words of Ken Nordvedt) is "that's > where the haplotypes are." Wilson (of EthnoAncestry) said much the > samething in a recent book and interview, a small part of which follows: > > Wilson: This I think is a mark of a movement from Ireland to Scotland at > some point in the past, rather long ago, because these are not men with > Irish surnames. They have ordinary Scottish surnames that have been in > Scotland for hundreds of years. > > Moffat: In other words were the Gaels either immigrants or were they a > native people who spoke Gaelic anyway? > > Wilson: Well I think that the Gaels of Dal Riata originated in Ireland. > And this is because > we've discovered and characterized a marker, a DNA marker, so a piece of > DNA that varies between individuals which we call M222. This is an > incredible marker actually because about 20% of all Irish men carry this > Y-chromsome marker. And when we look up into the north to Ulster it's > over 40% - > so it's extremely common and it shows all these people descend from one > man at some point in the past. In this case we think know who the > progenitor is. > > Moffat: Because Nial of the Nine hostages is a figure of some historical > substance around 400,500 AD. that means people with his marker in Scotland > have moved from Ireland and that's there's been a substantial migration. > > Wilson: I think that is the case. > > Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see > higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than > we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data > we willl see that and the case will be closed. > > > That theory is not universally held however. Dr. Faux, also of EthnoAncetry > at the time in 2006, said the following about M222 (then called R1b1c7): > > " 3) R1b1c7 is doubtless a recent mutation on M269 Y-chromosomes and is > confined to those whose ancestry is traced to Northwest Ireland (although it > may occur elsewhere as a result of migration, or if Spain or France perhps > because the first M222 emerged there). > > The only other relevant theory out there among academics belongs not to DNA > but to an Irish mythologist, O' > Rahillyh (Early Irish History and Mythology). O'Rahilly believed the Dal > Cuinn), ancestors of the Ui Neill and Connachta, were latecomers to Ireland > arriving sometime between 300 and 30 BC. He also believed they came not > from England or Scotland but from somewhere in Gaul. > > We\ve discussed this on the list numerous times before. O'Rahilly began > his book with a chapter on Ptolemy's map of Ireland. Well over half the > tribal names in Ptolemy's map are unidentifiable to modern scholars. There > is some agreement of a few of the names, including that of the Ulaidh and > Dal Riata in northern Ireland, the Brigantes in Leinster, the Iverni in > Munster and a few others. O'"Rahilly found no references to a tribe with > the name of Dal Cuinn or anything similar. In fact he said they should > have been there by 150 AD. but were not. > > O'Rahilly discussed every tribal name that appears in Ptolemy's map except > for one: the Venicnii.. > > Why he omitted this name is a mystery. It appears in every version of the > map I've seen. In a minor footnote he even mentioned the Venicones of > Scotland. > > O'Rahilly's theories are all wrapped up in linguistic divisions between P > and Q Celtic. I have ignored these since few linguists agree with him. > When you boil it down to the basics you come away with this: the Dal Cuinn > > as a tribe came to Ireland from somewhere in Gaul sometime during the Roman > era in the British Isles. > > If you accept the connection between the Dal Cuinn and M222, and the > possibility that the Dal Cuinn came from Gaul, then it is logical to assume > M222 originated in Gaul and migrated west into the British Isles. Scotland > would be the most likely first settlement; but they had boats and could > have come to Ireland at about the same time. > > If anyone knows of any other theories on the origin of the Dal Cuinn now is > the time to speak out. > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:14:34 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<28ea2.3cbfdf68.3b807289@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 5:43:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > cjl315@comcast.net writes: > > Is there any belief that M-222 may have come to Ireland with the Laigin? > > There is a DNA signature associated with the Lagin of Leinster but its not > M222. > > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm_ > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm) > > > John > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 03:17:45 +0000 > From: Bernard Morgan<bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Speculations on Celtric Tribes > To:<craig@mckie.ca>, dna-r1b1c7<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<SNT128-W26919190363AA1F34ECBF6BB2D0@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > > Let follow some of Craig's words >> Isolated individuals did not prosper or indeed long survive in the late > Neolithic and the early Middle Ages. > > In Ireland the basic unit of society was the derbfhine (or variant), > comprising all the patrilineal descendants over a four-generation group, > i.e., back to common great-grandfather. The derbfhine held typical five or > four rath/tech i.e. homesteads, which formed a Baile. Twenty Baile form a > Tuath or Tricha Cet, the basic kingdom level. > > Population remains constant until such things as agricultural improvements; > therefore population growth is a constant sum game, i.e. if the M222+ > population expansion is at the expense of someone else?s male descendants. > M222 population could expand territorially, however you have to wars and > tribal politics, so a simpler method is to push the weaker members of the > tribe to the edges. Smith shows this his book "Celtic Leinster". So non-M222 > population is forced to marginal land or contested frontier, and so are in > decline. (Probably also there male access to reproduction was a constant sum > game to, won by those with great recourses.) > > How this applies to M222? Well M222 would have grown in a clump for mutual > support and when large enough a clump breaks away and form new colonies. > This organic grow is what is described in the branching pedigrees and the > geographical movements can be followed in the annals. Hence have the > information to know who should be M222 (if telling the truth) due to tribal > claims. In Scotland this lack the annals its harder, yet there are Gaelic > tribal descriptions. However the Clan confederation dominates our > understanding of Scotland. Without the history and genealogical records we > know little about origin of the Gall-Gael. I think the fundamental issue > with Scotland is that no one have yet written the Gaelic history of > Scotland, or as the Scots would have described it, the Irish history of > Scotland?. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:21:50 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] j > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<702de.6e38541f.3b809e6e@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 7:54:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > donmilligan@comcast.net writes: > > I understand there are some histories of Wales, written in the early > 1900,that indicated some Irish raiders from the east central coast of > Ireland came into Wales and some of them settled in Wales. > Some of these Irish raiders were likely Celtic M-222+. Their descendants > mixed in with the Welsh Celts, and spread all the way into northern > England, southern Scotland, and northeastern Scotland. > > There's a fair amount about that in the literature. Google flight of the > Deisi to find some of it. There aren't many specific Irish tribes named > though. I think the Ui Liathain are another. There are also notices of a > northern British tribe returning to northern Wales to throw out the Irish > kings. And in Irish sources a statement that the Irish kings spent as much > > time in Wales as in Ireland. Nothing specific though. Nothing to tie in > with M222 although you can't rule it out. > > > The following is from Wikipedia: > > " > The U? Liath?in are known from both Irish and _British_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) sources, respectively the > _Sanas Cormaic_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic) _[4]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-3) _[5]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-4) and _Historia > Brittonum_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Brittonum) ,_[6]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-5) > to have had colonies in _Wales_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales) and > _Cornwall_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall) . According to the > Historia Brittonum they were driven out of _North Wales_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Wales) by _Cunedda_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunedda) and his sons._[7]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-6) > Alongside the U? Liath?in in this region of Britain were a significant force > of the so-called _D?isi_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D?isi) , whose story > is told in the famous _Expulsion of the D?isi_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_D?isi) already mentioned > above,_[8]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-7) as well as a > smaller population of > the _Laigin_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin) . Neither are > specifically connected to the U? Liath?in, or connected to each other, in > any of the Irish sources, but collaboration can certainly not be ruled out, > especially in matters relating to trade, including the slave trade. The > D?isi Muman lived adjacent to them in the neighboring _County Waterford_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Waterford) and the Laigin could be > found not much farther east in the Kingdom of _Leinster_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster) . > The U? Liath?in can, however, be associated easily with their apparent > relation _Crimthann mac Fidaig_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimthann_mac_Fidaig) , the legendary _King of > Munster_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Munster) and dominant _High King of > Ireland_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland) of the 4th century. > They are mentioned not only in the same passage in the Sanas Cormaic,_[9]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-8) _[10]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-9) but are close > relations in all the earliest genealogical > manuscripts. > In a 1926 paper, _Eoin MacNeill_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoin_MacNeill) discusses the movements of > the U? Liath?in at considerable length, arguing their leadership in the > South Irish conquests and founding of the later dynasty of _Brycheiniog_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brycheiniog) , figures in the Welsh > genealogies matching U? Liath?in dynasts in the Irish genealogies. He > argues any possible settlement of the D?isi would have been subordinate > until the ousting of the U? Liath?in by the sons of Cunedda. The founder of > Brycheiniog, _Brychan_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brychan) , is in all > probability the early dynast Macc Brocc (for whom see below), while the > name Braccan also occurs early in the pedigrees of the U? Fidgenti and U? > Dedaid, close kindred of the U? Liath?in. MacNeill further associates this > with the sovereignty in Ireland and conquests in Britain of their cousin > germane, the monarch Crimthann mac Fidaig._[11]_ > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-10) > > John > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:28:41 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<703c6.745b14e5.3b80a009@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > > I think at the very least that the current map on the project page should > state that it just represent the area of greatest currently known > concentration. I'd also like to see the Trinity maps displayed, and/or any > of the other maps produced on other blogs/fora giving a much more extensive > area of coverage. For instance there was a suggestion on the R-L21 Project > some months back that parts of Germany may be up to 5% M222+, if that's > true it changes everything! > > I put the Trinity M222 distribution map online. > > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg_ > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg) > > > There is no other such map available that I know of. > > As to German M222 there are quite a few in the databases. I just posted an > old list I compiled years ago the other day in response to someone who told > me he was Scandinavian M222. > > I haven't been able to update this list in the last few years. Ysearch > times out after about 500 entries now. > > > John > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:40:56 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<7054d.78aa4b40.3b80a2e8@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 9:43:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: > > What family names in Westmeath (the center of the southern Ui Neill power) > were tested for M222 in the Trinity report? > > The names Trinity tested can be found in their article _A Y-Chromosome > Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland (Trinity)_ > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/gael.pdf) and in the various > spreadsheets they released to the public. They also did a limited further > sampling of possible M222 surnames but kept the surnames tested > confidential. I also heard from several Kavanghs who said they were tested > by Trinity but the surname does not appear in any database released. > > Their website and data files are still online even though the project is > over. > > > _http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php_ > (http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php) > > > > John > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:55:23 -0400 (EDT) > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Subject: [R-M222] M222 in Donegal > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com, r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<7071e.6a457edf.3b80a64b@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > I received an email from a co-admin of the Ireland DNA project on the > subject of the Venicnii in Donegal. > > " > " I read a book last year called: > "Cen?l Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800" by Brian Lacey of the > Discovery project. It was published in 2006 before the publicity about M222 > hit the wires. His theory was that the C?nel Conaill/C?nel Eoghain were > actually indigenous to Donegal and that they had written themselves into > history as Northern U? N?ill for political reasons. Obviously the presence > of > M222 seems to negate this theory. But perhaps there's some truth in > argument that some of the U? N?ill were already "Donegal natives" by time > that we reckon Niall lived. In other words carried M222 -- just as men > carrying U? > Fiachrach and U? Bri?in names have tested M222+ > > > Either way it's quite an interesting book as it covers the entire of Donegal > during this period with mentions of the "Sean Tuatha" (the old tribes etc.). > For example he theorises that the Cen?l Lughaidh of West Donegal name > actually reflects a connection to the god Lugh (they control area around > Tory island on coast), but in christian times it was refactor to be descent > from man called Lughaidh who is put down as a cousin of Colmcille. > > > Fair bit in way of genealogies mention from annals etc. > > > _http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784_ > > (http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784) > > > > I haven't read this book myself but I have access to it in a library > here. Here's a review someone posed on Amazon.com. I might take a look > at it > myself. > > "Brian Lacey offers an in-depth study of the Cenel Conaill and the Donegal > Kingdoms 500-800 AD. The text has many b&w ilustrations and maps. The study > is quite in-depth for the common layman but presented well. The author has > strong opinions about the origin& genealogy of the Cenel Conaill but does > not present a compelling argument in regards to his theory that Conall > Gulban was not a son of Niall Noigiallach. I would have thought the author > would have had more compelling evidence on Gulban than thus presented and > was not swayed by his opinion and concur with the established Gulban > genealogy back to Niall, although tenuous at best. In regards to Niall of > the Nine Hostages not being the progenitor of the R-M222 genetic marker, I > concur. Dr. > Ken Nordtveldt calculates the MCCA of R-M222 at 1740 years ago in 2008. > That computes to 268 AD, much earlier than Niall's supposed reign of 379 - > 405 AD (more recent up to 455 AD). Of course this does not take into > account a variance or standard deviation which was not computed. This > places the progenitor possibly being Niall's father to up to his > great-great grandfather (Caibre Maccormac d. 284). It is suggested that the > progenitor may be a Cruithin Prince. This is unlikely as Niall's two > brothers (Brion& Friachrae) through their respective descendents carry the > R-M222 marker. Thus one of Niall's paternal ancestors most likely had the > mutation. Anyway, Niall likely contributed most heavily to the marker since > he was still pagan and had multiple concubines. Overall, a very well > researched and scholarly presentation. However, the author's refudiation of > some of the sons of Niall as not belonging to his lineage is at best weak > and does not concur with the earlier records. In addition, recent R-M222 > haplogroup DNA findings of surnames associated with Conall Gulban and the > Ui Neill associated clans refute such suppositions presented by the author. > " > > > > > John > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 > ****************************************** > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 256 > ****************************************** >

    08/20/2011 06:20:53
    1. Re: [R-M222] NEW THREAD DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 256
    2. Bernard Morgan

    3. Is the surname McConnaughey related to McConnaughtey from Mac Connachtaigh? An old Breifney family, still well represented in Cavan. Flann Ó Connachtaigh was Bishop of Kilmore in the early part of the 13th century? (From Woufle's Irish Names and Surnames 1923.) > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:20:53 -0400 > From: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > CC: dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com; gashley923@aol.com; lochlan@aol.com; weh8@verizon.net; tuulen@gmail.com; rreid002@insight.rr.com; bernardmorgan@hotmail.com; donmilligan@comcast.net > Subject: NEW THREAD DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 256 > > Indeed, this is what they say. It does seem a bit more complicated than > all of that, too which is all evidenced now by the M222 dna of the 14 > McC's who have tested under the Clan Donnachaidh project. > > 11 of the 15 fall into 3 separate M222 groups: > M222 Group A --Presently the largest group includes the 1 off model 392 > = 15, 389-2 = 28. This group of 5 also includes 1 current resident of > Antrim (anecdotal stories of this family include migration of 3 > brothers from Isle of Bute to Antrim during the plantation days). > 2 (of this group of 5) immigrant ancestors hopped the pond to PA during > the mid-1700's, while immigration time of the other two is unknown to > the project. There are 5 variant spellings in this group of 5 (although > with this name one should never classify by spelling). Of the 5 the off > model signature appears to be the oldest. > > M222 Group B Presently has 2 tested members and 2 spellings. 1 of the > two appears to have a signature older than the Nial group of 4 and older > than the A group of 5. Group A & B quite probably intersected in the > ancient past. > > M222 Nial Group has 4 tested members and 2 variant spellings considered > classically and exclusively Scot spellings of McConkey and McConchie. > This Nial group isn't even remotely related to the other 7 M222, > although there may be an intersection with the oldest of the Group B > signatures even farther back than that intersection with group A -- > maybe. As previously mentioned, it appears that one of the M222 group B > signatures is oldest among these M222. > > 2 different phylogenetic trees using two different analytical models > have been applied to these M222 McCs with the results about the same. > > The other 3 McC's of this project fall into 3 separate groups: > 1 is an R1b which is probably M222 but only 12 markers tested, and it > could be an on site Scotland sample as the project is actively testing > in both Ireland and Scotland. > 1 other McC is E1b1b1 male progenitor probably Roman, none the less the > issue were associated with one of the later known clans. > 1 other Mcc is I1 and has a signature similar to some I1 Robertson(s) in > the project. > > No genealogical relatedness has been identified among any of the McC's > in the project, and several have their genealogies solid back into the > 1st quarter of the 1700's. > > Now of further interest is the fact that McC M222 group A intersects > with Duncan Group B (also M222) of the Donnachaidh project. There are > too many close matches to count. This group consists of about 36/7 > Duncan, several Ashly, a couple of Davis (probably originally Davisson > of Davidson), Lawson, McAinich, McKinney, Gallagher, Mann, Murphy, and > others and if I missed any not intentional. > > The McC's are interesting because as Mr. Ashley's note suggests the name > is affiliated with several clans and what the victorian era decided to > classify as septs. Those of the name marched with the Bruce, held > leadership positions in both Campbell and Robertson, held the deed to > Isle of Bute for over 300 years, and fled to (or back to) Ireland during > the 1600's remaining there to immigrate out. > > It is interesting presently among the M222 definitions as well due to > the fact that of the very small testing pool of 14 thus far 11 are M222 > but fall into 3 separate M222 groups. Statistically, I believe this > could be useful. I've been trying to sell that idea to John & Bill for > further research, but they have not become interested yet. > > Some McCs also remained in Scotland post plantation years to Immigrate > out or be transported out by the English during the 1700's as they were > annihilating the clan system. The name is yet prevalent in both > Ireland and Scotland today yet as a surname much in the minority to the > more popular versions more anglicized such as Duncan which is actually a > Saxon derivative, Robertson, Reid, etc -- and surname usage is another > topic. Hard to find any 2 McCs who spell their name the same sometimes > even in the same genetically related family. Susan > > On 8/20/2011 8:48 AM, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in > > Pittsburgh (GAshley923@aol.com) > > 2. Re: A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library > > in Pittsburgh (tuulen) > > 3. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 M222 (Robert Reid) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 07:11:42 EDT > > From: GAshley923@aol.com > > Subject: [R-M222] A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie > > Library in Pittsburgh > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID:<136c3.6491a871.3b80f06e@aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > > > The history of this ancient Perthshire family traces its ancestry as a > > family of > > Dalriadian origin before the year 1100 and appears first in the ancient > > records > > in Perthshire. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in > > Pittsburgh, gives the following information on the name: (please forgive > > me for > > not keeping the book name for reference) ???The MacConaghy, MacConkey, > > MacDonagh, > > Donaghy and Duncan names all stem from the Scots and Irish Gaelic personal > > name > > Donnchadh, meaning ???brown warrior??? (from donn and cath). This gives > > the personal > > names Donagh in Ireland and Duncan in Scotland. In Ireland, the MacDonaghs, > > Gaelic Mac Donnchadha, are most numerous in Connacht where they are a > > branch of > > the MacDermots. A variant of MacDonagh in counties Tyrone and Derry is Mac > > Donnchaidh, which was anglicised first to MacDonaghy and then Donaghy. In > > Co > > Fermanagh, it is thought that most Donaghys descent from Donnchadh Ceallach > > Maguire, who led the Maguire conquest of Clakelly in the mid-fifteenth > > century. > > However, the Scottich Clan Robertson of Atholl in Perthshire was equally > > well > > known as Clan Donnachie, Gaelic Clann Donnchaidh, after its chief Fat > > Duncan > > (Donncha Reamhar) de Atholia who lived at the time of Robert the Bruce in > > the > > fourteenth century and led the clan at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. > > The > > MacConachies (also MacConaghy and MacConkey) were a sept of Clan Robertson, > > their family name in Gaelic being Mac Dhonnchaidh. (the ???h??? after > > the ???D??? makes > > it silent, thus sounding as Mac???onachie.) Also, after the 1745 > > rebellion, many > > members of Clan Robertson adopted the name Donachie to conceal their > > identity. > > There were also several MacConochie septs of Clan Campbell, one of which, > > the > > MacConachies of Inverawe in Argyllshire, descend from the > > fourteenth-century > > Duncan or Donachie Campbell of Lochow. The Clan Gregor MacConachies > > descend from > > the three sons of Duncan, seventeenth chief of MacGregor, by his second > > wife. > > There was also an old sept of Macconachies on the island of Bute. In > > Ulster all > > this becomes very complicated. As has already been stated, Donaghy is also > > an > > Irish name. Duncan, though a Scottish name used as an aglicisation of > > Donachie > > and MacConachie, has also in Ulster been used for the Irish Donaghy, as > > well as > > Donegan and Dinkin. MacConaghy has been noted as a synonym for Conaty, > > MacConaughty, MacConnerty and even Quinn. > > Within Ulster, MacConaghy and MacConkey are mostly found in Co. Antrim. > > Donaghy > > is most common in counties Antrim, Derry and Tyrone and Duncan in counties > > Antrim and Tyrone. MacDonagh is most numerous in Fermanagh.??? > > Some McConnaghy???s believe themselves to be Irish, some consider > > themselves > > Scotch. My theory is that, obviously, we can be either or both, > > considering that > > the area called Ulster included both Scotland and Ireland in ancient > > times, and > > MacConahy???s and variants are found across that land. Not to mention > > that many > > moved from Ireland to Scotland to escape certain wars. I think it is safer > > to > > say Scotch-Irish for most of us. > > Some variations of our name include: McConnaughey, McConnaughay, > > McConaughy, > > McConnaughhay, McConahy, McConnahie, McConaha, McConahay, McConahea, > > MacConahie, > > MacConaghy, McConaghy, McConnaghy, McConaty, McConnaghty, McConachie, > > McConaghy, > > McConaghie, McConaughey, McConahey, McConahe, etc. > > This variety of spellings, above, does not confine itself to one particular > > family. Indeed, any one particular McConnaughy family, could be found > > under half > > a dozen or more spellings, so it is no good insisting that a name was > > always > > spelled a certain way. People often could not read or write, so had no > > idea how > > to spell their own name. It depended on the whim, or knowledge of the > > scribe who > > wrote it down, as to how it might be spelled. > > Should any of you have additional information on the name, or your > > particular > > spelling, please pass along the information so that we can share it in a > > future > > newsletter > > > > > > _http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html_ > > (http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html) > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:48:19 -0400 > > From: tuulen<tuulen@gmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie > > Library in Pittsburgh > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID: > > <CABbuToz9TDhhkcKgySwfQPFOsa3ZdoOX3gBjOZ2O17iSa=3aHA@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > Hi, > > > > Your name is Ashley? My maternal grandmother's name was Ashley, from New > > Bedford, Massachusetts. > > > > Doug > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:11 AM,<GAshley923@aol.com> wrote: > > > >> The history of this ancient Perthshire family traces its ancestry as a > >> family of > >> Dalriadian origin before the year 1100 and appears first in the ancient > >> records > >> in Perthshire. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in > >> Pittsburgh, gives the following information on the name: (please forgive > >> me for > >> not keeping the book name for reference) ???The MacConaghy, MacConkey, > >> MacDonagh, > >> Donaghy and Duncan names all stem from the Scots and Irish Gaelic personal > >> name > >> Donnchadh, meaning ???brown warrior??? (from donn and cath). This gives > >> the personal > >> names Donagh in Ireland and Duncan in Scotland. In Ireland, the > >> MacDonaghs, > >> Gaelic Mac Donnchadha, are most numerous in Connacht where they are a > >> branch of > >> the MacDermots. A variant of MacDonagh in counties Tyrone and Derry is Mac > >> Donnchaidh, which was anglicised first to MacDonaghy and then Donaghy. In > >> Co > >> Fermanagh, it is thought that most Donaghys descent from Donnchadh > >> Ceallach > >> Maguire, who led the Maguire conquest of Clakelly in the mid-fifteenth > >> century. > >> However, the Scottich Clan Robertson of Atholl in Perthshire was equally > >> well > >> known as Clan Donnachie, Gaelic Clann Donnchaidh, after its chief Fat > >> Duncan > >> (Donncha Reamhar) de Atholia who lived at the time of Robert the Bruce in > >> the > >> fourteenth century and led the clan at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314. > >> The > >> MacConachies (also MacConaghy and MacConkey) were a sept of Clan > >> Robertson, > >> their family name in Gaelic being Mac Dhonnchaidh. (the ???h??? after > >> the ???D??? makes > >> it silent, thus sounding as Mac???onachie.) Also, after the 1745 > >> rebellion, many > >> members of Clan Robertson adopted the name Donachie to conceal their > >> identity. > >> There were also several MacConochie septs of Clan Campbell, one of which, > >> the > >> MacConachies of Inverawe in Argyllshire, descend from the > >> fourteenth-century > >> Duncan or Donachie Campbell of Lochow. The Clan Gregor MacConachies > >> descend from > >> the three sons of Duncan, seventeenth chief of MacGregor, by his second > >> wife. > >> There was also an old sept of Macconachies on the island of Bute. In > >> Ulster all > >> this becomes very complicated. As has already been stated, Donaghy is also > >> an > >> Irish name. Duncan, though a Scottish name used as an aglicisation of > >> Donachie > >> and MacConachie, has also in Ulster been used for the Irish Donaghy, as > >> well as > >> Donegan and Dinkin. MacConaghy has been noted as a synonym for Conaty, > >> MacConaughty, MacConnerty and even Quinn. > >> Within Ulster, MacConaghy and MacConkey are mostly found in Co. Antrim. > >> Donaghy > >> is most common in counties Antrim, Derry and Tyrone and Duncan in counties > >> Antrim and Tyrone. MacDonagh is most numerous in Fermanagh.?? > >> Some McConnaghy???s believe themselves to be Irish, some consider > >> themselves > >> Scotch. My theory is that, obviously, we can be either or both, > >> considering that > >> the area called Ulster included both Scotland and Ireland in ancient > >> times, and > >> MacConahy???s and variants are found across that land. Not to mention > >> that many > >> moved from Ireland to Scotland to escape certain wars. I think it is safer > >> to > >> say Scotch-Irish for most of us. > >> Some variations of our name include: McConnaughey, McConnaughay, > >> McConaughy, > >> McConnaughhay, McConahy, McConnahie, McConaha, McConahay, McConahea, > >> MacConahie, > >> MacConaghy, McConaghy, McConnaghy, McConaty, McConnaghty, McConachie, > >> McConaghy, > >> McConaghie, McConaughey, McConahey, McConahe, etc. > >> This variety of spellings, above, does not confine itself to one > >> particular > >> family. Indeed, any one particular McConnaughy family, could be found > >> under half > >> a dozen or more spellings, so it is no good insisting that a name was > >> always > >> spelled a certain way. People often could not read or write, so had no > >> idea how > >> to spell their own name. It depended on the whim, or knowledge of the > >> scribe who > >> wrote it down, as to how it might be spelled. > >> Should any of you have additional information on the name, or your > >> particular > >> spelling, please pass along the information so that we can share it in a > >> future > >> newsletter > >> > >> > >> _http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html_ > >> (http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html) > >> > >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: > >> > >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:48:41 -0400 > > From: "Robert Reid"<rreid002@insight.rr.com> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 M222 > > To:<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > > Message-ID:<000301cc5f37$7d8526e0$788f74a0$@insight.rr.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > Perhaps one of the best cases for West to East migration is Colum Cille > > (gaelic Dove of the Chuch, Iona - Hebrew Dove& Latin Columba Dove). I tried > > to put down my purported connection. Unfortunately the arrows did not > > transfer!!! So sorry. Adomnan (founder of Dull Monastery in Atholl) 7th > > century states Columba was the son of Feidlimid, and great grandson of > > Conall Gulban. We know he went to Iona ~ 563 AD and the Kindred of Columba > > (12 men who went with him, although a couple on his mother's side) were the > > ancestors of Clan Donnachaidh in the Atholl, part of Perth. These early > > Abbots married& had children in the kindred. I have Crinan (Kindred of > > Columba) to Alexander Robertson (who started the Reid sept ~ 1450 AD) > > straight back to Cenell Conaill. This is classic West to East from Donegal. > > As to the 2 epicenters of M222 in Ireland, my thoughts are that one was from > > the northern Ui Neills (16.7% Trinity study) and the other from the brothers > > of Niall at Connacht (10% epicenter Trinity study). No other epicenters in > > Europe. L21 ~ 4000 years ago in Gaul (France?0 and M269 ~ 6000 years ago > > around Causasus. M222 around 1500-2000 years ago NW Ireland. That the M222 > > did not start with Niall is evident, as his brothers present day clans carry > > M222. Thus Muighmheadoin could have been the earliest progenitor, but could > > be a few generations back in NW Ireland. That Niall spread the marker > > logarithmicly as did Ghenghis Khan (who like Niall was not the progenitor of > > his marker) was brought about by prestige& position as the Trinity report > > cites. As we know Columba was celibate but his kindred started the abbeys in > > Atholl and I am probably off of Crinan ancestry (Montcreiffe& Skeene - > > Crinan ancestor of Conall Gulban). I see no East to West from Scotland > > movement in Clan Donnachaidh or no steady state Ireland& Scotland modal as > > viewed by Campbell& some archaeologists. I think O'Rially's theory is quite > > plausible with the Q Celts. We know that Adomnan mentioned no Gaels in St > > Columbas' wanderings in Pictland but needed interpreters. So in my case, I > > got a good feeling about coming through Niall as do other Robertsons, > > Duncans& Reids who carry the M222 marker. > > > > > > > > Direct Paternal Ancestry of Robert Reid Y-Chromosome R-M222 SNP > > > > Eochaidh Muighmheadoin Son of Muiredach Tireach, King of Meath > > > > > > Niall Noigiallachd. C455 AD Niall of the Nine Hostages > > > > Conall Gulban progenitor of the Cen?l Conaill, King of Tir Conaill d. 464 AD > > > > > > Fergus Cendfota son of Conall Gulban > > > > > > ?Kindred? of Colum Cille (Columba) > > Sons of Fergus Cendfota: S?tnae, Feidlimid, Br?nainn, Ninnad. All four sons > > produced Abbots of Iona. St Columba celibate, son of Feidlimid Abbots of > > Iona 563 ? 700 AD > > > > > > Lugaid (Cenel Lugdech)? son of S?tnae, conjectured by Sir Iain Moncreiffe as > > ancestor > > of Clan Donnachaidh > > > > Abbots of Dull& Dunkeld, Atholl, Perthshire, Scotland 700-1000 AD ? direct > > paternal lineal descent fron Conall Gulban > > > > > > Duncan, Abthane of Dule, abbot of Dunkeld and Governor of Strathclyde b c920 > > AD > > > > > > Duncan, mormaer of Atholl and Abthane of Dule, killed 1010 AD at Battle of > > Mortlach > > where Malcolm II King of Scots > > defeated invading Norsemaen > > > > Crinan, Abbot of Dunkeld& Earl of Atholl d. 1045. Progenitor of Clan > > Donnachaid > > > > > > Duncan I MacCrinan, King of Scotland d. 1040 AD killed at > > Burghead. > > > > Mael Muire (Melmare) Mormaer of Atholl appointed c1100 AD > > > > Madach (Madadd) 1st Earl of Atholl d. 1145 AD > > Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl m. c1165 AD to Hextilda > > > > Duncan 3rd son of Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl > > > > Madach of Clunes (probable male line to Earls of Atholl) > > researcher Godon MacGregor) > > > > Andrew de Atholia > > > > Duncan de Atholia d. 1355 AD > > > > Patrick de Atholia, First of Lude > > > > Alexander Reid of Strathloch, descendants called Baron Rua > > ?Reid? > > > > Baron Reids - descendants in Strathloch, Perthshire, > > Scotland c1500 - 1750 > > > > Industrial Revolution movement from Perth to Renfrewshire > > > > Mathew Reid ? resided in Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland > > 1839 > > > > > > Thomas Reid ? b. 1839 Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland > > > > > > William Thomson Reid - b. 1869 Coatbridge, Lanarkshire, Scotland > > > > Thomas Reid - b. 1896 Longriggrend, Lanarkshire, Scotland > > > > Daniel Michael Reid - b. 1922 Youngstown, Ohio > > > > Robert Reid - b. 1949 Youngstown, Ohio > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > > dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 1:56 AM > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: j (Lochlan@aol.com) > > 2. Re: just to throw in another legend (Lochlan@aol.com) > > 3. Re: Speculations on Celtric Tribes (Bernard Morgan) > > 4. Re: j (Lochlan@aol.com) > > 5. Re: just to throw in another legend (Lochlan@aol.com) > > 6. Re: Venicones (Lochlan@aol.com) > > 7. M222 in Donegal (Lochlan@aol.com) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:08:40 -0400 (EDT) > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] j > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID:<28c8c.535684e6.3b807128@aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 4:46:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > > chantillycarpets@earthlink.net writes: > > > > All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the origins > > of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the Irish of > > many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th century > > really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in answering an > > emotional question -- which is why is it so important for it to have > > developed in Ireland? > > > > Most DNA experts I'm familiar with believe M222 originated in Ireland. > > And the reason they think so (in the words of Ken Nordvedt) is "that's > > where the haplotypes are." Wilson (of EthnoAncestry) said much the > > samething in a recent book and interview, a small part of which follows: > > > > Wilson: This I think is a mark of a movement from Ireland to Scotland at > > some point in the past, rather long ago, because these are not men with > > Irish surnames. They have ordinary Scottish surnames that have been in > > Scotland for hundreds of years. > > > > Moffat: In other words were the Gaels either immigrants or were they a > > native people who spoke Gaelic anyway? > > > > Wilson: Well I think that the Gaels of Dal Riata originated in Ireland. > > And this is because > > we've discovered and characterized a marker, a DNA marker, so a piece of > > DNA that varies between individuals which we call M222. This is an > > incredible marker actually because about 20% of all Irish men carry this > > Y-chromsome marker. And when we look up into the north to Ulster it's > > over 40% - > > so it's extremely common and it shows all these people descend from one > > man at some point in the past. In this case we think know who the > > progenitor is. > > > > Moffat: Because Nial of the Nine hostages is a figure of some historical > > substance around 400,500 AD. that means people with his marker in Scotland > > have moved from Ireland and that's there's been a substantial migration. > > > > Wilson: I think that is the case. > > > > Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see > > higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than > > we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data > > we willl see that and the case will be closed. > > > > > > That theory is not universally held however. Dr. Faux, also of EthnoAncetry > > at the time in 2006, said the following about M222 (then called R1b1c7): > > > > " 3) R1b1c7 is doubtless a recent mutation on M269 Y-chromosomes and is > > confined to those whose ancestry is traced to Northwest Ireland (although it > > may occur elsewhere as a result of migration, or if Spain or France perhps > > because the first M222 emerged there). > > > > The only other relevant theory out there among academics belongs not to DNA > > but to an Irish mythologist, O' > > Rahillyh (Early Irish History and Mythology). O'Rahilly believed the Dal > > Cuinn), ancestors of the Ui Neill and Connachta, were latecomers to Ireland > > arriving sometime between 300 and 30 BC. He also believed they came not > > from England or Scotland but from somewhere in Gaul. > > > > We\ve discussed this on the list numerous times before. O'Rahilly began > > his book with a chapter on Ptolemy's map of Ireland. Well over half the > > tribal names in Ptolemy's map are unidentifiable to modern scholars. There > > is some agreement of a few of the names, including that of the Ulaidh and > > Dal Riata in northern Ireland, the Brigantes in Leinster, the Iverni in > > Munster and a few others. O'"Rahilly found no references to a tribe with > > the name of Dal Cuinn or anything similar. In fact he said they should > > have been there by 150 AD. but were not. > > > > O'Rahilly discussed every tribal name that appears in Ptolemy's map except > > for one: the Venicnii.. > > > > Why he omitted this name is a mystery. It appears in every version of the > > map I've seen. In a minor footnote he even mentioned the Venicones of > > Scotland. > > > > O'Rahilly's theories are all wrapped up in linguistic divisions between P > > and Q Celtic. I have ignored these since few linguists agree with him. > > When you boil it down to the basics you come away with this: the Dal Cuinn > > > > as a tribe came to Ireland from somewhere in Gaul sometime during the Roman > > era in the British Isles. > > > > If you accept the connection between the Dal Cuinn and M222, and the > > possibility that the Dal Cuinn came from Gaul, then it is logical to assume > > M222 originated in Gaul and migrated west into the British Isles. Scotland > > would be the most likely first settlement; but they had boats and could > > have come to Ireland at about the same time. > > > > If anyone knows of any other theories on the origin of the Dal Cuinn now is > > the time to speak out. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:14:34 -0400 (EDT) > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID:<28ea2.3cbfdf68.3b807289@aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 5:43:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > > cjl315@comcast.net writes: > > > > Is there any belief that M-222 may have come to Ireland with the Laigin? > > > > There is a DNA signature associated with the Lagin of Leinster but its not > > M222. > > > > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm_ > > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm) > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 03:17:45 +0000 > > From: Bernard Morgan<bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Speculations on Celtric Tribes > > To:<craig@mckie.ca>, dna-r1b1c7<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > > Message-ID:<SNT128-W26919190363AA1F34ECBF6BB2D0@phx.gbl> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > > > > > Let follow some of Craig's words > >> Isolated individuals did not prosper or indeed long survive in the late > > Neolithic and the early Middle Ages. > > > > In Ireland the basic unit of society was the derbfhine (or variant), > > comprising all the patrilineal descendants over a four-generation group, > > i.e., back to common great-grandfather. The derbfhine held typical five or > > four rath/tech i.e. homesteads, which formed a Baile. Twenty Baile form a > > Tuath or Tricha Cet, the basic kingdom level. > > > > Population remains constant until such things as agricultural improvements; > > therefore population growth is a constant sum game, i.e. if the M222+ > > population expansion is at the expense of someone else?s male descendants. > > M222 population could expand territorially, however you have to wars and > > tribal politics, so a simpler method is to push the weaker members of the > > tribe to the edges. Smith shows this his book "Celtic Leinster". So non-M222 > > population is forced to marginal land or contested frontier, and so are in > > decline. (Probably also there male access to reproduction was a constant sum > > game to, won by those with great recourses.) > > > > How this applies to M222? Well M222 would have grown in a clump for mutual > > support and when large enough a clump breaks away and form new colonies. > > This organic grow is what is described in the branching pedigrees and the > > geographical movements can be followed in the annals. Hence have the > > information to know who should be M222 (if telling the truth) due to tribal > > claims. In Scotland this lack the annals its harder, yet there are Gaelic > > tribal descriptions. However the Clan confederation dominates our > > understanding of Scotland. Without the history and genealogical records we > > know little about origin of the Gall-Gael. I think the fundamental issue > > with Scotland is that no one have yet written the Gaelic history of > > Scotland, or as the Scots would have described it, the Irish history of > > Scotland?. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:21:50 -0400 (EDT) > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] j > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID:<702de.6e38541f.3b809e6e@aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 7:54:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > > donmilligan@comcast.net writes: > > > > I understand there are some histories of Wales, written in the early > > 1900,that indicated some Irish raiders from the east central coast of > > Ireland came into Wales and some of them settled in Wales. > > Some of these Irish raiders were likely Celtic M-222+. Their descendants > > mixed in with the Welsh Celts, and spread all the way into northern > > England, southern Scotland, and northeastern Scotland. > > > > There's a fair amount about that in the literature. Google flight of the > > Deisi to find some of it. There aren't many specific Irish tribes named > > though. I think the Ui Liathain are another. There are also notices of a > > northern British tribe returning to northern Wales to throw out the Irish > > kings. And in Irish sources a statement that the Irish kings spent as much > > > > time in Wales as in Ireland. Nothing specific though. Nothing to tie in > > with M222 although you can't rule it out. > > > > > > The following is from Wikipedia: > > > > " > > The U? Liath?in are known from both Irish and _British_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) sources, respectively the > > _Sanas Cormaic_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic) _[4]_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-3) _[5]_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-4) and _Historia > > Brittonum_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Brittonum) ,_[6]_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-5) > > to have had colonies in _Wales_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales) and > > _Cornwall_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall) . According to the > > Historia Brittonum they were driven out of _North Wales_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Wales) by _Cunedda_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunedda) and his sons._[7]_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-6) > > Alongside the U? Liath?in in this region of Britain were a significant force > > of the so-called _D?isi_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D?isi) , whose story > > is told in the famous _Expulsion of the D?isi_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_D?isi) already mentioned > > above,_[8]_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-7) as well as a > > smaller population of > > the _Laigin_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin) . Neither are > > specifically connected to the U? Liath?in, or connected to each other, in > > any of the Irish sources, but collaboration can certainly not be ruled out, > > especially in matters relating to trade, including the slave trade. The > > D?isi Muman lived adjacent to them in the neighboring _County Waterford_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Waterford) and the Laigin could be > > found not much farther east in the Kingdom of _Leinster_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster) . > > The U? Liath?in can, however, be associated easily with their apparent > > relation _Crimthann mac Fidaig_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimthann_mac_Fidaig) , the legendary _King of > > Munster_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Munster) and dominant _High King of > > Ireland_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland) of the 4th century. > > They are mentioned not only in the same passage in the Sanas Cormaic,_[9]_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-8) _[10]_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-9) but are close > > relations in all the earliest genealogical > > manuscripts. > > In a 1926 paper, _Eoin MacNeill_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoin_MacNeill) discusses the movements of > > the U? Liath?in at considerable length, arguing their leadership in the > > South Irish conquests and founding of the later dynasty of _Brycheiniog_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brycheiniog) , figures in the Welsh > > genealogies matching U? Liath?in dynasts in the Irish genealogies. He > > argues any possible settlement of the D?isi would have been subordinate > > until the ousting of the U? Liath?in by the sons of Cunedda. The founder of > > Brycheiniog, _Brychan_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brychan) , is in all > > probability the early dynast Macc Brocc (for whom see below), while the > > name Braccan also occurs early in the pedigrees of the U? Fidgenti and U? > > Dedaid, close kindred of the U? Liath?in. MacNeill further associates this > > with the sovereignty in Ireland and conquests in Britain of their cousin > > germane, the monarch Crimthann mac Fidaig._[11]_ > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-10) > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:28:41 -0400 (EDT) > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID:<703c6.745b14e5.3b80a009@aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > > pconroy63@gmail.com writes: > > > > I think at the very least that the current map on the project page should > > state that it just represent the area of greatest currently known > > concentration. I'd also like to see the Trinity maps displayed, and/or any > > of the other maps produced on other blogs/fora giving a much more extensive > > area of coverage. For instance there was a suggestion on the R-L21 Project > > some months back that parts of Germany may be up to 5% M222+, if that's > > true it changes everything! > > > > I put the Trinity M222 distribution map online. > > > > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg_ > > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg) > > > > > > There is no other such map available that I know of. > > > > As to German M222 there are quite a few in the databases. I just posted an > > old list I compiled years ago the other day in response to someone who told > > me he was Scandinavian M222. > > > > I haven't been able to update this list in the last few years. Ysearch > > times out after about 500 entries now. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 6 > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:40:56 -0400 (EDT) > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID:<7054d.78aa4b40.3b80a2e8@aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > > > > > > In a message dated 8/19/2011 9:43:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > > bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: > > > > What family names in Westmeath (the center of the southern Ui Neill power) > > were tested for M222 in the Trinity report? > > > > The names Trinity tested can be found in their article _A Y-Chromosome > > Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland (Trinity)_ > > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/gael.pdf) and in the various > > spreadsheets they released to the public. They also did a limited further > > sampling of possible M222 surnames but kept the surnames tested > > confidential. I also heard from several Kavanghs who said they were tested > > by Trinity but the surname does not appear in any database released. > > > > Their website and data files are still online even though the project is > > over. > > > > > > _http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php_ > > (http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php) > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 7 > > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:55:23 -0400 (EDT) > > From: Lochlan@aol.com > > Subject: [R-M222] M222 in Donegal > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com, r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Message-ID:<7071e.6a457edf.3b80a64b@aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > I received an email from a co-admin of the Ireland DNA project on the > > subject of the Venicnii in Donegal. > > > > " > > " I read a book last year called: > > "Cen?l Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800" by Brian Lacey of the > > Discovery project. It was published in 2006 before the publicity about M222 > > hit the wires. His theory was that the C?nel Conaill/C?nel Eoghain were > > actually indigenous to Donegal and that they had written themselves into > > history as Northern U? N?ill for political reasons. Obviously the presence > > of > > M222 seems to negate this theory. But perhaps there's some truth in > > argument that some of the U? N?ill were already "Donegal natives" by time > > that we reckon Niall lived. In other words carried M222 -- just as men > > carrying U? > > Fiachrach and U? Bri?in names have tested M222+ > > > > > > Either way it's quite an interesting book as it covers the entire of Donegal > > during this period with mentions of the "Sean Tuatha" (the old tribes etc.). > > For example he theorises that the Cen?l Lughaidh of West Donegal name > > actually reflects a connection to the god Lugh (they control area around > > Tory island on coast), but in christian times it was refactor to be descent > > from man called Lughaidh who is put down as a cousin of Colmcille. > > > > > > Fair bit in way of genealogies mention from annals etc. > > > > > > _http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784_ > > > > (http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784) > > > > > > > > I haven't read this book myself but I have access to it in a library > > here. Here's a review someone posed on Amazon.com. I might take a look > > at it > > myself. > > > > "Brian Lacey offers an in-depth study of the Cenel Conaill and the Donegal > > Kingdoms 500-800 AD. The text has many b&w ilustrations and maps. The study > > is quite in-depth for the common layman but presented well. The author has > > strong opinions about the origin& genealogy of the Cenel Conaill but does > > not present a compelling argument in regards to his theory that Conall > > Gulban was not a son of Niall Noigiallach. I would have thought the author > > would have had more compelling evidence on Gulban than thus presented and > > was not swayed by his opinion and concur with the established Gulban > > genealogy back to Niall, although tenuous at best. In regards to Niall of > > the Nine Hostages not being the progenitor of the R-M222 genetic marker, I > > concur. Dr. > > Ken Nordtveldt calculates the MCCA of R-M222 at 1740 years ago in 2008. > > That computes to 268 AD, much earlier than Niall's supposed reign of 379 - > > 405 AD (more recent up to 455 AD). Of course this does not take into > > account a variance or standard deviation which was not computed. This > > places the progenitor possibly being Niall's father to up to his > > great-great grandfather (Caibre Maccormac d. 284). It is suggested that the > > progenitor may be a Cruithin Prince. This is unlikely as Niall's two > > brothers (Brion& Friachrae) through their respective descendents carry the > > R-M222 marker. Thus one of Niall's paternal ancestors most likely had the > > mutation. Anyway, Niall likely contributed most heavily to the marker since > > he was still pagan and had multiple concubines. Overall, a very well > > researched and scholarly presentation. However, the author's refudiation of > > some of the sons of Niall as not belonging to his lineage is at best weak > > and does not concur with the earlier records. In addition, recent R-M222 > > haplogroup DNA findings of surnames associated with Conall Gulban and the > > Ui Neill associated clans refute such suppositions presented by the author. > > " > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 > > ****************************************** > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 256 > > ****************************************** > > >

    09/16/2011 10:21:27