Sandy, even earlier than that. Irish patronymics appear on Ogam stones in the 5th and 6th centuries. There are some sample inscriptions at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham_inscriptions. But true surnames were several centuries later. I've read an article that tabulates all the surname eponyms and they date from 858 to 1089, with the actual derived surname usually a few generations later. Iain > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 08:16:20 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker results > > Hi Charles > > > You touched on the fact that we M222's seem to be only distantly related to > other M222 surnames. I don't think there's a magic number that we can > usefully think of as the number of generations back by which time our > families all had surnames. I have the impression that prominent Irish have > been using patronyms since perhaps 800AD. In terms of Scotland, I know that > the first Chief of Lamont, who lived around 1235-1295AD had a surname. The > same family had previously used the surname Erachar, although it's not clear > how far back that surname went. > > > Sandy > >

Iain I think a number of us would be interested in the article that you mentioned. Can you direct us to it? Thanks. John -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy Sent: August-02-11 5:59 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker results Sandy, even earlier than that. Irish patronymics appear on Ogam stones in the 5th and 6th centuries. There are some sample inscriptions at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham_inscriptions. But true surnames were several centuries later. I've read an article that tabulates all the surname eponyms and they date from 858 to 1089, with the actual derived surname usually a few generations later. Iain > From: alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 08:16:20 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker results > > Hi Charles > > > You touched on the fact that we M222's seem to be only distantly > related to other M222 surnames. I don't think there's a magic number > that we can usefully think of as the number of generations back by > which time our families all had surnames. I have the impression that > prominent Irish have been using patronyms since perhaps 800AD. In > terms of Scotland, I know that the first Chief of Lamont, who lived > around 1235-1295AD had a surname. The same family had previously used > the surname Erachar, although it's not clear how far back that surname went. > > > Sandy > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message