Found this in the Encyclopedia of the Celtic Tree web site: Vennicnii / Ουεννικνιοι - Name of the peoples of the ancient city Ireland by Ptolemy in his Geography, living in the north-west of the island (County Donegal). Their name is Latinized into Vennicni regularly and may be a compound * veni -icnos "the son of the clan ", or based on the Celtic root * venicos" members of the clan . " Some see a possible relationship between Ireland and Vennicnii Venicon Scotland. Ptolemy, Geography, II, 2, 3: "The living Ouenniknioi the west coast, next to them are in order, the Robogdioi. The west coast is bordered by the western ocean." Ptolemy, Geography, II, 2, 5: "Erdinoi live near the coast of Ouenniknioi and live between the two magnates, and then Auteinoi Gagganoi, below which are Ouellaboroi. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 3:00 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 Today's Topics: 1. Re: The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! (Sandy Paterson) 2. Re: The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! (Bill Howard) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 08:39:51 +0100 From: "Sandy Paterson" <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000301cc63c3$572225d0$05667170$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Right, it's coming back to me. Sometime during the past 6 months there was a shortish discussion in genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com between Dave Johnston and Ken Nordtvedt. DJ wrote that he could show mathematically that the self-variance method of estimating group TMRCA in fact produced an answer that was an unbiased estimate NOT of the group TMRCA, but of the mean of the pair-wise TMRCA's within the group. Since that is necessarily lower than the group TMRCA, it means that the self-variance method it is biased low. He went on to reason that in order to get an unbiased estimate of group TMRCA, variance should be calculated with reference to the putative marker value of the eponymous group "founder" rather than the mean marker value of the group. I don't wish to incorrectly attribute views to DJ or KN, but I got the impression that KN agreed with DJ, but added the caveat that the marker value of the founder is unknown. Yes, we can calculate modals, but although we can regard the modals as the 'best estimates' of the founder markers, we don't actually know them. That was my interpretation of the discussion. Unfortunately, my computer crashed soon after that, so I'd be hard-pressed to track down the exchange. As I recall, DJ suggested that simply estimating the pairwise TMRCA of the two seemingly most distantly related haplotypes within a group (read Conroy and Doherty in M222), would probably be insightful, but the answer would be biased high. I think the discussion between DJ and KN was probably the most useful exchange I've ever read on the subject on TMRCA estimation, but it seems to have died off without much follow-up. Perhaps they continued the discussion off-list. So. I think the above supports your contention that we should be concentrating on the extremes rather than the group in its entirety. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: 25 August 2011 19:33 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! Sandy, I just visually scanned the chart I linked to. What I'd like to see is analysis done of a 67-Marker, M222 SNP Tested sample, that excludes the well known Ui Neill families - that way we could see what relationships can be determined from the outliers, which might provide more clues?! On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Sandy Paterson < alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> wrote: > Hi Paul > > I'm interested to know why you include Gillespie in the group of outliers. > My interest in them is that I share DYS481,487 = 26,14 with them, and > also that Gillespie and Ewing share DYS442 = 11. > > I agree with your general approach though - a better understanding of > the outliers is likely to provide a better understanding of M222. > > Sandy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy > Sent: 25 August 2011 17:11 > To: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Cc: lochlan@aol.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland > - oh > boy here we go again! > > Susan, > > Yes, it has been discussed many times. > > One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether > M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families > are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland > and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history, > separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel, > aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have > Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier, > and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as > they were one breeding population for millennia. > > Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or > Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some > Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in is > the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first person > about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill families were > extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants were Medieval > rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and very > early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided > distribution of > M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need > M222+to be > able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as: > 1. Conroy (myself) > 2. Galyean > 3. Gillespie > 4. McCord > 5. Cruden > > Check out this chart: > http://dna.cfsna.net/R-M222.jpg > > And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland, > North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France, > South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland, > Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included in this project. > > As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman > French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one wave > from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source somewhere > between coastal > between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and > South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes, and > to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman > French, to Scotland, England and Ireland. > > Cheers, > Paul > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Susan Hedeen < > chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > The debates we've been reviewing regarding M222 have been around for > > awhile. See this discussion. I'm sure you have probably seen it > > before, but almost dejavu (spelling an example of phonetics) > > > > http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8846.10;wap2 > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:00:24 -0400 From: Bill Howard <weh8@verizon.net> Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <D358BD1E-E6FA-496B-B2CA-C72BA359D745@verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Just a short note about the determination of the time of origin of groups of haplotypes, be they a SNP group or a surname group. ? The RCC correlation technique now has a time scale determined from pedigrees. ? t appears to be linear over tens of thousands of years. This means that the mutation rate has not changed significantly over that time period. ? Haplotype analysis of only one set of markers is meaningless; it must be compared with others. ? By the nature of this comparison, we can only determine the TMRCA of the oldest pair. But we want the time of origin of the progenitor, not of a pair of people. ? If you form a phylogenetic tree, it contains ALL the testees that are in the group you select. ? You can plot the run of descendant lines as a function of time. It will be an exponential plot due to the growing number in the population whose markers have separately mutated. ? A plot of the Log of the number (Log N) against the date will be very nearly a straight line. ? You merely have to extrapolate that straight line to the point where Log N=0. That's when the progenitor lived. The main point here is that the straight line results by using every testee on the plot, not just the ones who are more distant, AND this leads to only a very short extrapolation on the plot, so it can be trusted. The R^2 value of the plot is of the order of 0.98, yielding a very nice relation that you can work with and trust. The downside? Easy -- you need a very large number of testees in the group to assure that you are not just determining the TMRCA of the group you chose. How do you know when you have included enough testees? Well, as the number of testees you analyze gets larger and larger, the inclusion of more results tends to push the TMRCA further back in time, even with the extrapolation. If you run the tree process on larger and larger numbers, you will see the effect. But if you have two large groups, one of which contains, say 340 testees and the other contains 680 testees, and IF the derived date of the former is LONGER AGO than the one derived from the latter, then you know you have had enough in the sample because the "law of diminishing returns" has set in. That happened when John McLaughlin and derived Figure 3 in our paper on M222. We mentioned that effect there. It can be found at: http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Paper .pdf and it has been submitted to the journal Familia, connected to the Ulster Historical Foundation where the readership in Ulster and Scotland who carry M222 tends to peak up! I truly think that this is now the best way to determine the TMRCA of groups of haplotypes. The more the group shares the identified characteristic of a group, the more meaningful the determination will be. You should not apply the process to a random group of testees because the result will not be meaningful. ----------- By the way, prior to publishing my Paper 1 introducing the RCC approach, Whit Athey and I had considerable discussions about how to determine the TMRCA of a surname cluster whose membership was known to be incomplete. This is EXACTLY the case here. In my Paper 1, it was determined that to determine the time of origin, you had to find the TMRCA of KNOWN members of the cluster by a factor of about 52.7/43.3 = 1.22 in order to estimate the TMRCA of a cluster if all the members were present. When there are more testees in the sample, that factor will be lower, as we see in the case of the M222 extrapolation (below).My Paper 1 is at: http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/Howard1.p df Now, go to Figure 3 of the M222 paper. There you will see the last measured point was at a date of about 1300 BC. The same sort of extrapolation applied here would take you to the TMRCA of the M222 SNP, about 1680 years ago (SD~ 300 years). If I had done this process on a number of surname clusters using a phylogenetic tree approach, it would have given about the same result but would have been more trustworthy. But I had not known of the tree approach at the time I wrote that paper introducing the RCC correlation technique. This is just a more clever way to determine the SNP => using the number of descendant lines on the phylogenetic tree. Every testee contributes to the resulting straight line on the tree! ---------- - Bye from Bill Howard On Aug 26, 2011, at 3:39 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > Right, it's coming back to me. > > Sometime during the past 6 months there was a shortish discussion in > genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com between Dave Johnston and Ken Nordtvedt. > > DJ wrote that he could show mathematically that the self-variance > method of estimating group TMRCA in fact produced an answer that was > an unbiased estimate NOT of the group TMRCA, but of the mean of the > pair-wise TMRCA's within the group. Since that is necessarily lower > than the group TMRCA, it means that the self-variance method it is biased low. > > He went on to reason that in order to get an unbiased estimate of > group TMRCA, variance should be calculated with reference to the > putative marker value of the eponymous group "founder" rather than the > mean marker value of the group. > > I don't wish to incorrectly attribute views to DJ or KN, but I got the > impression that KN agreed with DJ, but added the caveat that the > marker value of the founder is unknown. Yes, we can calculate modals, > but although we can regard the modals as the 'best estimates' of the > founder markers, we don't actually know them. That was my interpretation of the discussion. > > Unfortunately, my computer crashed soon after that, so I'd be > hard-pressed to track down the exchange. > > As I recall, DJ suggested that simply estimating the pairwise TMRCA of > the two seemingly most distantly related haplotypes within a group > (read Conroy and Doherty in M222), would probably be insightful, but > the answer would be biased high. > > I think the discussion between DJ and KN was probably the most useful > exchange I've ever read on the subject on TMRCA estimation, but it > seems to have died off without much follow-up. Perhaps they continued > the discussion off-list. > > So. > > I think the above supports your contention that we should be > concentrating on the extremes rather than the group in its entirety. > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy > Sent: 25 August 2011 19:33 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland > - oh boy here we go again! > > Sandy, > > I just visually scanned the chart I linked to. > > What I'd like to see is analysis done of a 67-Marker, M222 SNP Tested > sample, that excludes the well known Ui Neill families - that way we > could see what relationships can be determined from the outliers, > which might provide more clues?! > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Sandy Paterson < > alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Hi Paul >> >> I'm interested to know why you include Gillespie in the group of outliers. >> My interest in them is that I share DYS481,487 = 26,14 with them, and >> also that Gillespie and Ewing share DYS442 = 11. >> >> I agree with your general approach though - a better understanding of >> the outliers is likely to provide a better understanding of M222. >> >> Sandy >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy >> Sent: 25 August 2011 17:11 >> To: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Cc: lochlan@aol.com >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of >> Ireland - > oh >> boy here we go again! >> >> Susan, >> >> Yes, it has been discussed many times. >> >> One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether >> M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families >> are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland >> and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history, >> separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel, >> aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have >> Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier, >> and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as >> they were one breeding population for millennia. >> >> Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or >> Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some >> Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in >> is the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first >> person about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill >> families were extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants >> were Medieval rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and > very >> early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided >> distribution of >> M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need >> M222+to be >> able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as: >> 1. Conroy (myself) >> 2. Galyean >> 3. Gillespie >> 4. McCord >> 5. Cruden >> >> Check out this chart: >> http://dna.cfsna.net/R-M222.jpg >> >> And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland, >> North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France, >> South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland, >> Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included in this project. >> >> As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman >> French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one >> wave from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source >> somewhere between > coastal >> between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and >> South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes, >> and to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman >> French, to Scotland, England and Ireland. >> >> Cheers, >> Paul >> >> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Susan Hedeen < >> chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: >> >>> The debates we've been reviewing regarding M222 have been around for >>> awhile. See this discussion. I'm sure you have probably seen it >>> before, but almost dejavu (spelling an example of phonetics) >>> >>> http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8846.10;wap2 >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 ******************************************