In a message dated 8/20/2011 11:16:45 A.M. Central Daylight Time, berna rdmorgan@hotmail.com writes: Which experts? You may have seen John's posting as to the origin of Cenél nEoghain and Cenél Conaill. I've seen the arguement that Eoghain and Conaill (like Maine) are missing from early Irish sources (i.e. the lives of St Patrick). Bernard, I just checked the Tripartite Life of Patrick (Whitley Stokes edition). In his introduction he states the material was written in the middle 10th century or more probably the 11th century. I'm not sure how great a source this is. "Patrick then goes to the Assembly of Telltown, to the sons of Niall. Maine believed in him, and he was afterwards baptized. But Coirpre, son of Niall, opposed him, and the name which Patrick gave him was God s Foe, and Patrick said that his children should serve his brother s children for ever ; and that neither kings nor bishops nor wise men should spring from him, and that his land would be little ; and the issue was so. But Conall (i.e., Cremthann , son of Niall, believed, and was baptized, and gave the stead where he was biding to Patrick, and a church was built there which And of his seed are the Clann-Colmain, and the seed of Aed Slaine." This mentions the sons of Niall including Maine, Ciorpre and Conal Cremthainn. There are other references to Loegaire, son of Niall, Conall gulban and Eoghan. I'm not sure if there is a reference to Fiachach or Enna. Haven't had time to check. Elsewhere we read about the sons of Erc, Fergus Mor, Angus and Loarn which raises red flags for me. I think the Senchus Fir nAlban was written in about the same time period. That's also about the date of the Laud 610 genealogies. Does anyone know if there is a really early source available somewhere which mentions Niall or his sons? John

I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify all the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them, particularly before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c. 1090). I'm using Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland: Introduction to the sources' and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of the New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is purely religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the Ui Neill is Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site and exists in an MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part: 'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal Riadic king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of whom Eochaid, succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son Domnanll, both Ui Neill overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also overlord of the Ui Neill... it is the Life, not the annals, which tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the battle of Mag Rath, a major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and contraction of Ulster.' I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not even sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived? Iain ---------------------------------------- > From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí Néill? > > > Does anyone know if there is a really early source available somewhere > which mentions Niall or his sons? > > > John > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank John, I can now push the existence of Cenel Maine back to the 10/11th century. > Bernard, I just checked the Tripartite Life of Patrick (Whitley Stokes > edition). In his introduction he states the material was written in the > middle 10th century or more probably the 11th century. I'm not sure how great a > source this is.