Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui Neill (Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move north into Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin, natives of the territory. I do not know yet if he ties this into the Venicnii of Ptolemy (I only have one chapter copied) but he does mention a Winducatti in the Dunfanaghy area of Donegal which might be the same tribe. Much of his argument is based on Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to 690 AD. He tries to connect the Cenel Conaill to the Ui Eachach Cobha and the Cenel Eoghain to the Dal Fiatach, two familiar tribes from Ulster. In that he seems completely off-base. Can anyone connect M222 to either of these tribes? The Ui Eachach Cobha in particular were said to be Cruithin as an off shoot of the Dal nAraidi. The historical chieftains were the Maguinnes of Co. Down, whose chieftains were I haplogroup according to Patrick Guinness, associated with the Trinity DNA project. If anyone has the slightest idea what Dal Fiatach DNA looks like I haven't heard about it. He also spends a fair amount of ink on Mag Shamradhan's article on the southern Ui Neill which claims that Conall Cremthaine was really Conal gulban. That also seems doubtful to me. Chapter 5 The 'Ui Neill of the north': a genealogical fabrication. Tirechan Our earliest actual witness to the geography of at last part of the great Donegal are as we have seen above is Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to about 690. Unfortunately Tirechan referred mainly to the physical geography, giving us little information about the political subdivisions. He described the area as a series of Campi or plains - his translation into Latin of the Irish word Maige - running from south to north. Mag Sereth and Lag Larrain in south Donegal were divided from Magh nItha and Mag Tochuir in the north by the Bernas FIliorum Conill, 'the Gap of the sons of Conall', the Barnesmore Gap.. It is important top note that Tirechan does not suggest that the Conall from whom the Bernas was named was a son of Niall Noigiallach. When Tirechan does mention a Conall son of Niall, as he does on two occasions, it is clear that he is referring to the Conall allegedly associated with the astern midlands, the character known to us as Conall Cremthainne (Bieler 1979, 133 and 163). Speaking about Tirechan's Collectanea, Thomas Charles-Edwards significantly says: "The principal part of the work consists of two books, there first devoted to the lands of the Ui Neill and the second to the kingdoms of the Connachta. The Ui Neill in Tirechan's scheme were solely the southern UI Neill, rulers of the midlands. The northern Ui Neill dynasties, Cenel Conaill, Cenel nEogain and Cenel nEndai, thus had no obvious place in his text (2007, 37) ....The fact is that the people known to us as the northern Ui Neill are not dealt with in the Ui Neill section but in the second or Connaught book. Thus the very earliest description we have of the political geography of Donegal makes no reference to any association between the people who lived there and the people known to the author of that description as Ui Neill. Indeed, the very opposite is the case, for Tirechan the northerners seem to have been unambiguously not Ui Neill. As far as he was concerned, the Ui Neill were confined more or less, to the east of the country. Conclusion To sum up, with the exception of Cenel Cairpre, there appears to be no evidence that any of the rulers of the Donegal kingdoms were related by blood to Niall Noigiallach or to the Ui Neill. Instead it seems there is evidence that the Cenel Conaill were a Cruithin people associated in some way with the Ui Echach Cobha and with other allegedly east Ulster peoples. The Cenel nEnnai may have had connections with the 'Cruithin Dal nAraidi or, alternatively, the Airgialla, who themselves may originally have had connections also with the Cruithin. The Cenel Eoghain but a lot less certainly, may have had connections with the Dal Fiatach. >From a DNA standpoint, I'm not sure we can yet say the northern and southern Ui Neill were related by blood in descent from Niall. Most of the DNA we possess is either Connachta or northern Ui Neill in origin. Or just plain of unknown origin. There is some in the south, O'Mulloys and Geoghegans, I think the Trinity study largely skipped over southern Ui Neill surnames. In the following list I only see a few that might be southern Ui Neill. (O’)Gallagher (12), (O’)Boyle (9), (O’)Doherty (5), O’Donnell (4), O’Connor (3), Cannon (3), Bradley (2), O’Reilly (2), Flynn (2), (Mc)Kee (2), Campbell (1), Devlin (1), Donnelly (1), Egan (1), Gormley (1), Hynes (1), McCaul (1), McGovern (1), McLoughlin (1), McManus (1), McMenamin (1), Molloy (1), O’Kane (1), O’Rourke (1), and Quinn (1). Molloy might be one. McLoughlin another if the O Mailsechlainns of Meath were targeted. But that also could be MacLochlainn of Donegal. I'm not saying I don't believe the genealogies are incorrect or that DNA doesn't support them. I think we don't have enough data yet to decide. Where did Niall live? If he's known for anything in Irish mythology it's for his raids on Roman Britain. The same is true of his father, Eochaidh Mughmedhoin. It's hard to imagine that he lived in the old Connachta capital of Cruachan if he spent much of his time raiding Britain by ship. That line of work would be much easier from a coastline somewhere. John

John, I might be able to shed some light on the Y-DNA of the Dál Fiatach, from two sources. One is the McEvoy study and the other is some research that Jerry Kelly, of this list, has just done for me. ========================================================================= 1) McEvoy et al. John posted this some time ago which he culled from the McEvoy study: Dunleavy Haughey MCGUINNESS 5 M222 of 12 14 M222 of 19 24 M222 of 99 Ulster (1) Most in Ulster Ulster (11) Leinster (2) Associated with Donegal&Armagh Connacht (10) Munster (1) O hEochaidh Leinster (3) Connacht (1) I post the McGuinnes just to emphasize what John posted below. They are generally not M222, but HG I. McEvoy normalized all of his names to one spelling. He normalized Haughey and McGuinness, so we don't know the original spellings of Haughey/Hoey/Hoy. As John noted above, the Haughey spelling is common in Donegal and Armagh while Hoey/Hoy is common in Louth and the surrounding counties. The Annals say that the Mac Dunveavys were expelled by the Normans from Ulidia and some went to Donegal (McInulty sp?). It is also said that some of the Ó hEochaidh went with them since they were really the same family, (see Jerry Kelly's work below). So, if any of McEvoy's M222 Haughey were from Donegal, they were from Dál Fiatach, which was their region of Ulidia. This points to the Dál Fiatach being M222. If any of McEvoy's Haughey were from the Louth area, they were really Hoey/Hoy/Ó hEochaidh. The Ó hEochaidh were from Dál Fiatach. My family is Hoy from mid-Louth and is M222. This points to the Dál Fiatach being M222. Note. A NPE from say, Donegal for my Louth family, is not likely since my M222 matches are half Irish and half Scots, which makes sense for a family based near Downptrick. =========================================================================== 2) Jerry Kelly's research. I thrashed around for months trying to understand what the Annals that I had access to, meant about my family. I gave up and went to Jerry Kelly who is a fluent Irish speaker and also understands the nuances of the Annals. He found that the Ó hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshléibhe were on the main branch of the Dál Fiatach rulers and that the Mac Duinnshléibhe had barely split from the Ó hEochaidh before the Normans arrived. “So for instance when after 1137 the Dal Fiatach kingship was confined to the descendants of Donn Sleibe Mac Eochada (slain in 1091), the rigdamnai set themselves apart from the rest of the family by using the name Mac Duinnshleibhe (Donleavy)." Byrne, page 128 The Ó hEochaidh family, (Sloinne Ó hEochaidh as Jerry taught me) took the name from Eochaidh mac Ardghair, who died in 979. Before that it was just "son of, son of, ..." Jerry used the non-translated Irish Annals to trace the line back reliably to 455 and less reliably earlier. So the Ó hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshléibhe line were the ruling family of Dál Fiatach back to the time of Patrick. Jerry has another story of how the family got to Louth with the help of the O'Loughlins and O'Carrols, but that is for another time. ========================================================================== Conclusion. With McEvoy's Haugheys and Jerry's work with the Annals and my M222 test and unusual matches, I pretty sure that the Dál Fiatach were M222, at least on the main line. We also know that in tribal societies, the bottom tier doesn't reproduce itself and the top tier over produces. So some people fall down each generation and eventually, on the male line, everyone is related. So if the ruling line is M222, so are all. Gerry Hoy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 11:58 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui Neill (Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move north into Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin, natives of the territory. I do not know yet if he ties this into the Venicnii of Ptolemy (I only have one chapter copied) but he does mention a Winducatti in the Dunfanaghy area of Donegal which might be the same tribe. Much of his argument is based on Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to 690 AD. He tries to connect the Cenel Conaill to the Ui Eachach Cobha and the Cenel Eoghain to the Dal Fiatach, two familiar tribes from Ulster. In that he seems completely off-base. Can anyone connect M222 to either of these tribes? The Ui Eachach Cobha in particular were said to be Cruithin as an off shoot of the Dal nAraidi. The historical chieftains were the Maguinnes of Co. Down, whose chieftains were I haplogroup according to Patrick Guinness, associated with the Trinity DNA project. If anyone has the slightest idea what Dal Fiatach DNA looks like I haven't heard about it.

> Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui > Neill (Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move north into > Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin, One way to answer to the question is whether they share the same mutation. In ysearch.org sometime back I found Conlon NM4WF from Belfield, Co. Westmeath who is M222+. Belfield is near Gaybrook and is within the former lands of Clann Enna mac Laoghaire. The O'Conlon (O Caindelbain) are the senior branch of Clann Enda mac Laogaire and of Cenel Laogaire in Midi. So is Cenel Laogaire of the Southern Ui Neill M222+? > From a DNA standpoint, I'm not sure we can yet say the northern and > southern Ui Neill were related by blood in descent from Niall. Most of the DNA > we possess is either Connachta or northern Ui Neill in origin. Or just plain > of unknown origin. There is some in the south, O'Mulloys and Geoghegans, > I think the Trinity study largely skipped over southern Ui Neill surnames. > In the following list I only see a few that might be southern Ui Neill. > > (O’)Gallagher (12), > (O’)Boyle (9), (O’)Doherty (5), O’Donnell (4), O’Connor (3), Cannon > (3), Bradley (2), O’Reilly (2), Flynn (2), (Mc)Kee (2), Campbell (1), > Devlin (1), Donnelly (1), Egan (1), Gormley (1), Hynes (1), McCaul > (1), McGovern (1), McLoughlin (1), McManus (1), McMenamin (1), > Molloy (1), O’Kane (1), O’Rourke (1), and Quinn (1). > > Molloy might be one. McLoughlin another if the O Mailsechlainns of Meath > were targeted. But that also could be MacLochlainn of Donegal. The Trinity report did not investigate the existance of M222+ amongst the Southern Ui Neill?