What a great story/theory. It amuses me that certain members of the group are insistent on a Scottish origin (even some who are known to have a "Heinz 57" background); some can't bear the thought of an Irish origin. As one of the members who knows exactly where my grandparents came from (one of those remote end points in Ireland: Rathlacken in County Mayo), I still believe the ultimate source of M222 has yet to be determined. We simply don't have enough samples. I think the Niall story excited a group of Irish/Scottish Americans who may have skewed the results. Only time and a larger test pool will tell. Marie Golden Kerr (on behalf of James J. Golden) -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 9:28 AM To: Lochlan@aol.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend and don't ask for the citations on this as my Celtic descended brain is as the ancestors more memory and mouth than the written word-- as far as keeping bits and pieced of written trivia which may come in handy at times like this. Let's go back to a couple of premises, that M222 is a Celtic signature. We are entering into an interesting discussion of the Veneti of Gaul Could indeed we be referring to the same tribe known as the Galatians -- the famous Galatians who set up camp in Turkey after attempting to conquer Greece and well aware also of Roman Power. Let's extrapolate a bit with some of the other legends involving these Celts. One of Brits best known resources at the time was tin, and tin mining and trade was going on prior to the Roman conquest. What was the best mode of transport? Boat. These tribes were feudal and cooperative, and according to some literature had some fairly vast trade routes among themselves that extended in time also previous to the Roman conquest. M222 was not restricted to NW Ireland and lowland Scotland; however at this juncture in time (the genetic DNA testing era) the testing pool reveals the highest concentration from tested subjects who either yet reside in those environs or claim those environs as their genealogical point of origin -- that place of their anecdotal family stories -- that place from which their oldest know ancestor came from. There are remnants of it, however coming from those who claim other environs as their ancestral homes: Switzerland, France, and more also places where these Celtic tribes had settlements and trade routes. What do people do at times when extinction seems a possibility? They MIGRATE. The more remote the location generally the longer they settle provided they can manage enough food to survive. What do they do when the environs they migrate to become over populated and sustaining the increased population becomes difficult? A portion of the population breaks off and MIGRATES. Do they lose sight of one another? Over time; however in the short term they help one another in Trade. These themes are common among the various Celtic tribes. Where is the last bastion of migration? Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Briton. Where yet are the highest concentrations? The more remote of those locations. Did M222 form up in Ireland? I agree with Bill, I don't think so, but it flourished there. Did it form up in Scotland? I'd suggest previous to that. The flow between Scotland and Ireland was steady and back and forth. Deciding that question is like the chicken and the egg. Even those tribes said to be indigenous migrated in, but because they were there when the next bunch of migrants marched in, they then became indigenous. Why are the concentrations today so much higher in Ireland than anywhere else statistically? Think about the migration stories again. We know that they migrated back and forth between Ireland and Scotland in addition to raiding, trading wives and all the like in all the various lore and legends. Where was the last place the Scots who bailed out to at the time the English were dissolving the clans? They went to Ulster. Where did the go after that? The American Colonies, Canada, Australia, New Zealand -- and some stayed in Ulster along side of their ancient ancestral tribes long forgotten as such. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

What has always worried me about this project is that there has never been a serious attempt to recruit Southern Irish, English, Welsh and Continental recruits - though I could be wrong on this. I have mentioned before that: 1. I am the most distant M222+ member from the modal - which could make me either nearer the source, or a parallel branch of M222 2. My closest matches are Dunn(s) and there is a huge Dunn project, and many seem to be M222+, yet almost are memberst - there are only 4 Dunn(e)s in the M222 Project 3. My next closest matches are Daltons and other names from the Kilkenny, Laois, Tipperary area - the former Ossory (aka Osraighe) - there is only 1 Dalton in the M222 Project 4. Next closest are the Breifne clans, especially O'Reilly (aka Riley) - there are only 4 Reilly/Rileys in the M222 Project. The original Trinity study had a gradient map, which had max concentration in the Donegal/Tyrone area, but a second hotspot in the Breifne area, and a tertiary hotspot in the Laois area, but M222+ is found as far South as Kerry, the only areas it's not usually found in, are exactly those areas that were heavily planted (aka colonized), like the Pale (Dublin, Kildare, Meath, Wicklow), and the South East. If we truly want to know where M222 originated, then we need to step out of Northern Ireland and Lowland Scotland, which are areas of expansion of the haplogroup, not necessarily origin - this is especially true for the O'Doherty, Ewing and McLoughlin clans and others, which seem to be only 800-1,000 years old. Cheers, Paul On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Marie Kerr <mkerr.shamrock@comcast.net>wrote: > What a great story/theory. It amuses me that certain members of the group > are insistent on a Scottish origin (even some who are known to have a > "Heinz 57" background); some can't bear the thought of an Irish origin. As > one of the members who knows exactly where my grandparents came from (one > of > those remote end points in Ireland: Rathlacken in County Mayo), I still > believe the ultimate source of M222 has yet to be determined. We simply > don't have enough samples. I think the Niall story excited a group of > Irish/Scottish Americans who may have skewed the results. Only time and a > larger test pool will tell. > > Marie Golden Kerr (on behalf of James J. Golden) > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen > Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 9:28 AM > To: Lochlan@aol.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend > > and don't ask for the citations on this as my Celtic descended brain is as > the ancestors more memory and mouth than the written word-- as far as > keeping bits and pieced of written trivia which may come in handy at times > like this. > > Let's go back to a couple of premises, that M222 is a Celtic signature. > We are entering into an interesting discussion of the Veneti of Gaul > > Could indeed we be referring to the same tribe known as the Galatians -- > the > famous Galatians who set up camp in Turkey after attempting to conquer > Greece and well aware also of Roman Power. > > Let's extrapolate a bit with some of the other legends involving these > Celts. One of Brits best known resources at the time was tin, and tin > mining and trade was going on prior to the Roman conquest. What was the > best > mode of transport? Boat. > > These tribes were feudal and cooperative, and according to some literature > had some fairly vast trade routes among themselves that extended in time > also previous to the Roman conquest. > > M222 was not restricted to NW Ireland and lowland Scotland; however at this > juncture in time (the genetic DNA testing era) the testing pool reveals > the > highest concentration from tested subjects who either yet reside in those > environs or claim those environs as their genealogical point of origin -- > that place of their anecdotal family stories -- that place from which their > oldest know ancestor came from. > > There are remnants of it, however coming from those who claim other > environs > as their ancestral homes: Switzerland, France, and more also places where > these Celtic tribes had settlements and trade routes. > > What do people do at times when extinction seems a possibility? They > MIGRATE. The more remote the location generally the longer they settle > provided they can manage enough food to survive. What do they do when the > environs they migrate to become over populated and sustaining the increased > population becomes difficult? A portion of the population breaks off and > MIGRATES. Do they lose sight of one another? Over time; however in the > short term they help one another in Trade. > > These themes are common among the various Celtic tribes. Where is the last > bastion of migration? Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Briton. Where yet are the > highest concentrations? The more remote of those locations. > > Did M222 form up in Ireland? I agree with Bill, I don't think so, but it > flourished there. Did it form up in Scotland? I'd suggest previous to > that. The flow between Scotland and Ireland was steady and back and forth. > Deciding that question is like the chicken and the egg. Even those tribes > said to be indigenous migrated in, but because they were there when the > next > bunch of migrants marched in, they then became indigenous. > > Why are the concentrations today so much higher in Ireland than anywhere > else statistically? Think about the migration stories again. We know that > they migrated back and forth between Ireland and Scotland in addition to > raiding, trading wives and all the like in all the various lore and > legends. > Where was the last place the Scots who bailed out to at the time the > English > were dissolving the clans? They went to Ulster. Where did the go after > that? The American Colonies, Canada, Australia, New Zealand -- and some > stayed in Ulster along side of their ancient ancestral tribes long > forgotten > as such. > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >