dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > > Today's Topics: > 1. off model request summary (Susan Hedeen) > 2. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 286 (Robert Reid) When discussing off models there was mention that several in this group share a mutation value of 15 @ dys 392. I was wondering if those of you who show cys 392 = 15 if you'd share your signature with me. Another question, of those of you who have 15 @ dys 392, how many share the 28 value at 389-2? Most I've seen in Y search where 392 = 15 have 389-2 = 29. If you'd like to contact me directly rather that take up list talk, that is fine chantillycarpets@earthlink.net or frmid2va@yahoo.com Thanks, Susan > Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 18:24:12 -0400 > From: "Robert Reid"<rreid002@insight.rr.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 286 > To:<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<000801cc65d1$3693d510$a3bb7f30$@insight.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > St Columba& translators > > > From Adomnan of Iona, Life of St Columba: > > Book I, 33, pp. 136-7: When St Columba was staying for a few days on the > island of Skye ? a little boat came in to land on the shore, bringing in its > prow a man worn out with age. He was the chief commander of the warband in > the region of C?. Two men carried him from the boat and set him down in > front of the blessed man. As soon as he had received the word of God from > St Columba, through an interpreter, he believed and was baptized by him. > Drumville takes Geonus as an adjective derived from the place name C?, the > name of a Pictish provence thought to extend over what is now Banffshire and > Aberdeenshire (Watson, Celtic Place-names, pp.108-9, 114, 515; Wainright, > ?The Picts and the problem?, pp. 46-7). The stream in which he received > baptism is even today called by the local people ?water of Artbranan?. > > Book II, 32, pp. 179-80: During the time when St Columba spent a number of > days in the province of the Picts, he was preaching the word of life through > an interpreter. A Pictish layman heard him and his entire household believed > and was baptized, husband, wife, children and servants. A few days later one > of his sons was seized with a severe pain, which brought him to the boundary > of life and death. When the heathen wizards saw that the boy was dying, they > began to make a mock of the parents and to reproach them harshly, making > such of their own gods as the stronger and belittling the God of the > Christians as the feebler. > All this was made known to St Columba and it stirred him vigorously to take > God?s part. He set off with his companions to visit the layman?s house, and > there he found that the child had recently died and his parents were > performing the rituals of mourning. Seeing their great distress, St Columba > comforted them and assured them that they should not in any way doubt that > God is almighty. Then he proceeded to question them, saying: > ?In which of these buildings does the body of the dead boy lie?? > The bereaved father led St Columba to that sad lodging, which the saint > entered alone, leaving the crowd of people outside. Having gone inside, St > Columba immediately knelt and, with tears streaming down his face, prayed to > Christ the Lord. After these prayers on bended knee, he stood up and turned > his gaze to the dead boy, saying: > ?In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, wake up again and stand upon thy > feet.? > At the saint?s glorious word the sould returned to the body, and the boy > that was dead opened his eyes and lived again. > Dr. Isabel Henderson, The Picts, pp. 74-75, suggests ? that the saint?s > travels among the Picts, .. centered around St Columba?s visit to King > Bridei near the River Ness, may have been drawn from a narrative of that > visit. It certainly seems possible, even likely, that II 27, 32-35 derive > from some such account..? > St Columba does not require a translator?s help howeve, during the > course of his visit(s) to King Bridei?s fort and his dialogue with various > people there, so plainly there were at least 2 languages used in Pictland > (wizard Broichan, King Bridei and his council). As a contemporary, and one > of the chief kings in Scotland, Bridei appears in Adomn?n's Life of Saint > Columba. Adomn?n's account of Bridei is problematic in that it fails to > tells us whether Bridei was already a Christian, and if not, whether Columba > converted him. > > The chief place of Bridei's kingdom, which may have corresponded with later > Fortriu, is not known. Adomn?n tells that after leaving the royal court, by > implication soon afterwards, Columba came to the River Ness, and that the > court was atop a steep rock. Accordingly, it is generally supposed that > Bridei's chief residence was at Craig Phadrig, to the west of modern > Inverness overlooking the Beauly Firth. Both the Vita Columbae and the > Venerable Bede (672/673-735) record Columba's visit to Bridei. Whereas > Adomn?n just tells us that Columba visited Bridei, Bede relates a later, > perhaps Pictish tradition, whereby the saint actually converts the Pictish > king. Another early source is a poem in praise of Columba, most probably > commissioned by Columba's kinsman, the King of the U? N?ill clan. It was > almost certainly written within three or four years of Columba's death and > is the earliest vernacular poem in European history. It consists of 25 > stanzas of four verses of seven syllables each. > That St Columba does not require a translator?s help during the course of > his visit(s) to King Bridei?s fort (Craig Phadng) and his dialogue with > various people there, plainly infers that the elite of Bridei?s kingdom > spoke a form of Q-Celtic similar to Old Irish. Or maybe Q-Celtic was > fashionable at the time much like French was at European Courts in the 18th > century and the elite were bilingual. However, the translators needed at > the baptism of Artbranan and the raising of the dead boy near Fidach > (Inverness/Nainshire) could be a forms of an extinct P-Celtic (Pictish) > language. Pictish is a term used for the extinct language or languages > thought to have been spoken by the Picts, the people of northern and central > Scotland in the Early Middle Ages. The idea that a distinct Pictish language > was perceived at some point is attested clearly in Bede's early 8th-century > Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum, which names Pictish as a language > distinct from both Welsh and Gaelic. However, why would the elite of King > Bridei?s kingdom speak a language (form of Q-Celtic) distinct from the > probable P-Celtic scenarios mentioned above? > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 3:00 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 286 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 (Robert Reid) > 2. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 (Lochlan@aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:07:02 -0400 > From: "Robert Reid"<rreid002@insight.rr.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 > To:<dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<000001cc651e$cb71d140$625573c0$@insight.rr.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" > > > Again, Clan MacTavish Seannachie website: > > Tavis, Tavis or Taus is considered, and accepted in multiple sources, as the > progenitor, epytom and founder of Clan MacTavish. However, this is > incorrect. The MacTavish consider themselves much older than the traditional > stories of Argyllshire, promulgated by the old seannachies, and newer > writers still insist upon the old stories, when none have looked beyond > those traditional stories for any possible alternate origin. Such a > beginning is found in the old Irish annals and the old writ, Ceart Ui Neill, > out of Donegal, Ireland. The MacTavishes come from the Cenel nDuach a branch > of the Cenel Conaill, descended from the Pictish Kings of Ros Guill and > Irguill, now part of Donegal, and also from Dal-araidhe, now part of Antrim > and Down. The Greek (Roman)historian, mapmaker and mathmetician, Ptolemy, > mentions the tribe under the name of Ouenniknoi (Windukatii), and the > lineage is tracable in such texts as the Irish Annuls of Ulster and Four > Masters. > > > A Traditional Royal Genealogic Table > > of the Cen?l nDuach (or Windukatii Picts) > > (Given in the various Irish annals and Ceart Ui Neill) > > 1. Conall Gulban ? King of Tir Connell, of whom the Cen?l Conaill > > (Supposed Son of King Niall No?giallach) > > 2. Du?, alias Fergus Cennfoda - married Erca Loarn, Dau. of Loarn Mor, > > she was Princess of Dalriada. > > He founded the branch Cen?l nDuach of Cenel Conaill, > > a Prince of the Cen?l Conaill, > > King of Goll and Irgoll, > > and Prince of Dal-araidhe. > > 3. Ninnid(h), King of Goll and IrGoll. His offspring are called ?Siol > Ninnidh?. > > (flourished 561-563) > > 4. B?et?n (Baedan), King of Teimar [sic Tara], High King of Ireland > > (d. 584-586)| > > 5. Conall, Prince of the Cenel nDuach& Tory Island, of Siol Ninnidh > > 6. Sechnusach, Prince of the Cenel nDuach of Siol Ninnidh > 7. Du? (2nd ?), Prince of the Cenel nDuach of Siol Ninnidh > > (has but brief mention) > 8. Corcc, or Uricc (alias Orc Doith) of Cenel nDuach& of Siol Ninnidh > > King of Gull and Irogull, flourished 658 > > ( Orc, the Boar, and > > Doith is a latter interpretation of Dui, or Duach. > > Orc Doith literally means: The Boar of Duach) > > 9. Duinechaid, Prince of the Cenel nDuach& Siol Ninnidh, killed 691 > 10. Nuada (alias Anmchadh), King of Guill and Irguill (d. 718-722) > > Last of the Royal Succession > The descendants are: The MacGilletsamhais (Siol Ninnidh) over Gull and > Irgull > > > Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy > here we go again! (Sandy Paterson) > 2. Re: The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy > here we go again! (Bill Howard) > > > Yes, it has been discussed many times. > > One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether > M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families > are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland > and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history, > separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel, > aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have > Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier, > and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as > they were one breeding population for millennia. > > Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or > Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some > Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in is > the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first person > about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill families were > extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants were Medieval > rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and > very >> early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided >> distribution of >> M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need >> M222+to be >> able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as: >> 1. Conroy (myself) >> 2. Galyean >> 3. Gillespie >> 4. McCord >> 5. Cruden >> >> Check out this chart: >> http://dna.cfsna.net/R-M222.jpg >> >> And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland, >> North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France, >> South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland, >> Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included >> in this project. >> As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman >> French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one wave >> from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source somewhere >> between coastal >> between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and >> South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes, and >> to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman >> French, to Scotland, England and Ireland. >> >> Cheers, >> Paul >> >> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Susan Hedeen< >> >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:00:24 -0400 >> From: Bill Howard<weh8@verizon.net> >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland >> - oh boy here we go again! >> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID:<D358BD1E-E6FA-496B-B2CA-C72BA359D745@verizon.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> >> Just a short note about the determination of the time of origin of groups of >> haplotypes, be they a SNP group or a surname group. >> >> ? The RCC correlation technique now has a time scale determined from >> pedigrees. >> ? t appears to be linear over tens of thousands of years. >> This means that the mutation rate has not changed >> significantly over that time period. >> ? Haplotype analysis of only one set of markers is meaningless; it >> must be compared with others. >> ? By the nature of this comparison, we can only determine the TMRCA of >> the oldest pair. >> But we want the time of origin of the progenitor, not of a >> pair of people. >> ? If you form a phylogenetic tree, it contains ALL the testees that >> are in the group you select. >> ? You can plot the run of descendant lines as a function of time. It >> will be an exponential plot due to the growing number in the >> population whose markers have separately mutated. >> ? A plot of the Log of the number (Log N) against the date will be >> very nearly a straight line. >> ? You merely have to extrapolate that straight line to the point where >> Log N=0. That's when the progenitor lived. >> >> The main point here is that the straight line results by using every testee >> on the plot, not just the ones who are more distant, AND this leads to only >> a very short extrapolation on the plot, so it can be trusted. The R^2 value >> of the plot is of the order of 0.98, yielding a very nice relation that you >> can work with and trust. >> >> The downside? Easy -- you need a very large number of testees in the group >> to assure that you are not just determining the TMRCA of the group you >> chose. How do you know when you have included enough testees? Well, as the >> number of testees you analyze gets larger and larger, the inclusion of more >> results tends to push the TMRCA further back in time, even with the >> extrapolation. If you run the tree process on larger and larger numbers, >> you will see the effect. But if you have two large groups, one of which >> contains, say 340 testees and the other contains 680 testees, and IF the >> derived date of the former is LONGER AGO than the one derived from the >> latter, then you know you have had enough in the sample because the "law of >> diminishing returns" has set in. >> >> That happened when John McLaughlin and derived Figure 3 in our paper on >> M222. We mentioned that effect there. It can be found at: >> http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/M222Paper >> .pdf >> and it has been submitted to the journal Familia, connected to the >> Ulster Historical Foundation where the readership in Ulster and Scotland who >> carry M222 tends to peak up! >> >> I truly think that this is now the best way to determine the TMRCA of groups >> of haplotypes. The more the group shares the identified characteristic of a >> group, the more meaningful the determination will be. You should not apply >> the process to a random group of testees because the result will not be >> meaningful. >> ----------- >> By the way, prior to publishing my Paper 1 introducing the RCC approach, >> Whit Athey and I had considerable discussions about how to determine the >> TMRCA of a surname cluster whose membership was known to be incomplete. This >> is EXACTLY the case here. In my Paper 1, it was determined that to determine >> the time of origin, you had to find the TMRCA of KNOWN members of the >> cluster by a factor of about 52.7/43.3 = 1.22 in order to estimate the TMRCA >> of a cluster if all the members were present. When there are more testees >> in the sample, that factor will be lower, as we see in the case of the M222 >> extrapolation (below).My Paper 1 is at: >> http://mysite.verizon.net/weh8/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/Howard1.p >> df >> >> Now, go to Figure 3 of the M222 paper. There you will see the last measured >> point was at a date of about 1300 BC. The same sort of extrapolation applied >> here would take you to the TMRCA of the M222 SNP, about 1680 years ago (SD~ >> 300 years). If I had done this process on a number of surname clusters using >> a phylogenetic tree approach, it would have given about the same result but >> would have been more trustworthy. But I had not known of the tree approach >> at the time I wrote that paper introducing the RCC correlation technique. >> This is just a more clever way to determine the SNP => using the number of >> descendant lines on the phylogenetic tree. Every testee contributes to the >> resulting straight line on the tree! >> ---------- >> - Bye from Bill Howard >> >> >> >> >>> boy here we go again! >>> >>> Susan, >>> >>> Yes, it has been discussed many times. >>> >>> One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether >>> M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families >>> are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland >>> and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history, >>> separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel, >>> aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have >>> Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier, >>> and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as >>> they were one breeding population for millennia. >>> >>> Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or >>> Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some >>> Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in >>> is the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first >>> person about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill >>> families were extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants >>> were Medieval rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and >> very >>> early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided >>> distribution of >>> M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need >>> M222+to be >>> able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as: >>> 1. Conroy (myself) >>> 2. Galyean >>> 3. Gillespie >>> 4. McCord >>> 5. Cruden >>> >>> Check out this chart: >>> http://dna.cfsna.net/R-M222.jpg >>> >>> And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland, >>> North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France, >>> South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland, >>> Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included >>> in > this project. >>> As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman >>> French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one >>> wave from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source >>> somewhere between >> coastal >>> between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and >>> South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes, >>> and to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman >>> French, to Scotland, England and Ireland. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Paul >>> >>>