Susan, Yes, it has been discussed many times. One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history, separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel, aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier, and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as they were one breeding population for millennia. Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in is the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first person about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill families were extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants were Medieval rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and very early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided distribution of M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need to be able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as: 1. Conroy (myself) 2. Galyean 3. Gillespie 4. McCord 5. Cruden Check out this chart: http://dna.cfsna.net/R-M222.jpg And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland, North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France, South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included in this project. As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one wave from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source somewhere between coastal between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes, and to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman French, to Scotland, England and Ireland. Cheers, Paul On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > The debates we've been reviewing regarding M222 have been around for > awhile. See this discussion. I'm sure you have probably seen it > before, but almost dejavu (spelling an example of phonetics) > > http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8846.10;wap2 > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Paul, I am feeling very vindicated by your opinion which perhaps not as specifically, I share, and I believe others perhaps less vocal than some of us may share this as well. It seems perhaps in light of the most recent studies that marker correlation except in large averaging pools (and maybe not even then) is unlikely to settle the issue due to the inconstancy of mutation. That's a song I've been singing for awhile as well, albeit I'm not as knowledgeable on the subject as many may be. Added to this issue is factoring in the location of the oldest known ancestor bit as it ofter reflects pools of coalescence due to recent migration while disregarding migrations previous to family/cultural/social anecdotal stories and/or record keeping. As an investigative tool among all the others, however, it is a valuable consideration. Although surnames recently may be correlated, the same issue is true when regarding surnames and lineages. Frankly some are well researched while others are at best, best guesses, and in all cases before record keeping is rarely anything but speculation. That issue is also fraught with name changes, phonetic spellings and all the rest. In both cases the bias often is the wish list that most of us fall victim to at one time or another. We are left with some histories recorded of the oral versions, which as we all know are written from the perspective of the scribe(s), and one may hope only that there is no bias there which is highly unlikely. Interesting and complicated and the observation -- fascinating. Susan On 8/25/2011 12:11 PM, Paul Conroy wrote: > Susan, > > Yes, it has been discussed many times. > > One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether > M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families > are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland > and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout > history, separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting > travel, aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to > have Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still > earlier, and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and > distinguish, as they were one breeding population for millennia. > > Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or > Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some > Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in is > the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first person > about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill families were > extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants were Medieval > rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and very early colonists in the US, > they have created a very lopsided distribution of M222+. But to > determine the true source of the entire group, we need to be able to > account for the placing of all the outliers, such as: > 1. Conroy (myself) > 2. Galyean > 3. Gillespie > 4. McCord > 5. Cruden > > Check out this chart: > http://dna.cfsna.net/R-M222.jpg > > And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland, > North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France, > South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland, > Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included > in this project. > > As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman > French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one wave > from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source somewhere > between coastal between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to > South England and South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the > Belgae tribes, and to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later > again as Norman French, to Scotland, England and Ireland. > > Cheers, > Paul > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Susan Hedeen > <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > <mailto:chantillycarpets@earthlink.net>> wrote: > > The debates we've been reviewing regarding M222 have been around for > awhile. See this discussion. I'm sure you have probably seen it > before, but almost dejavu (spelling an example of phonetics) > > http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8846.10;wap2 > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > <mailto:DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com> with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > the message > >

Hi Paul I'm interested to know why you include Gillespie in the group of outliers. My interest in them is that I share DYS481,487 = 26,14 with them, and also that Gillespie and Ewing share DYS442 = 11. I agree with your general approach though - a better understanding of the outliers is likely to provide a better understanding of M222. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: 25 August 2011 17:11 To: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Cc: lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! Susan, Yes, it has been discussed many times. One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history, separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel, aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier, and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as they were one breeding population for millennia. Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in is the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first person about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill families were extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants were Medieval rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and very early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided distribution of M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need to be able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as: 1. Conroy (myself) 2. Galyean 3. Gillespie 4. McCord 5. Cruden Check out this chart: http://dna.cfsna.net/R-M222.jpg And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland, North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France, South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included in this project. As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one wave from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source somewhere between coastal between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes, and to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman French, to Scotland, England and Ireland. Cheers, Paul On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > The debates we've been reviewing regarding M222 have been around for > awhile. See this discussion. I'm sure you have probably seen it > before, but almost dejavu (spelling an example of phonetics) > > http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8846.10;wap2 > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

DOES MAKE GOOD SENSE! THANK YOU, DON MILLIGAN, "OUTLIER FROM NITHSDALE, SCOTLAND TO DONEGORE, CO. ANTRIM CIRCA 1630". -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 10:58 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! Hi Paul I'm interested to know why you include Gillespie in the group of outliers. My interest in them is that I share DYS481,487 = 26,14 with them, and also that Gillespie and Ewing share DYS442 = 11. I agree with your general approach though - a better understanding of the outliers is likely to provide a better understanding of M222. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: 25 August 2011 17:11 To: chantillycarpets@earthlink.net; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Cc: lochlan@aol.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - oh boy here we go again! Susan, Yes, it has been discussed many times. One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history, separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel, aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier, and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as they were one breeding population for millennia. Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in is the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first person about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill families were extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants were Medieval rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and very early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided distribution of M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need to M222+be able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as: 1. Conroy (myself) 2. Galyean 3. Gillespie 4. McCord 5. Cruden Check out this chart: http://dna.cfsna.net/R-M222.jpg And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland, North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France, South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included in this project. As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one wave from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source somewhere between coastal between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes, and to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman French, to Scotland, England and Ireland. Cheers, Paul On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > The debates we've been reviewing regarding M222 have been around for > awhile. See this discussion. I'm sure you have probably seen it > before, but almost dejavu (spelling an example of phonetics) > > http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=8846.10;wap2 > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message