Here's a link on the Erainn peoples in Ireland, which could also tie together a few things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn In early Irish genealogical tracts the Érainn are regarded as an ethnic > group, distinct from the Laigin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin> and > Cruthin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruthin>. Population groups in > Munster classed as Érainn include the Corcu Loígde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde> in > southwest County Cork <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Cork>, the > Múscraige <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige> in Counties Cork > andTipperary <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Tipperary>, the Corcu > Duibne <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne> in County Kerry<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Kerry>, > and the Corcu Baiscinn <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscinn> in > west County Clare <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Clare>. The Dál > Riata <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata> and Dál Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> > (or Ulaid <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaid>) in Ulster<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster> are > also considered Érainn. The Érainn appear to have been a powerful group in > the proto-historic period, but in early historical times were largely > reduced to politically marginal status, with the notable exception of the > enigmatic Osraige <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osraige>. The most > important of the Munster Érainn, the Corcu Loígde, retained some measure of > prestige even after they had become marginalized by the Eóganachta<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta> in > the 7th or 8th century.[7]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-6> It > is likely that the sometimes powerful Uí Liatháin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Liath%C3%A1in> and > their close kin the Uí Fidgenti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Fidgenti> originally > belonged to the Érainn/Dáirine as well, but were later counted among the > Eóganachta for political reasons.[8]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-7> > [9] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-8> Another > prominent Érainn people of early Munster are believed to have been the > Mairtine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairtine>, who by the early > historical period have completely vanished from the Irish landscape, > although they may be in part ancestral to the later Déisi Tuisceart<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi_Tuisceart> > and Dál gCais <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais>.[10]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-9> > The Déisi Muman <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi_Muman> may also > have had Érainn origins, but this has long been disputed. Note that Osraige is Ossory - where my family comes from. It seems likely the Iverni were related to the Darini<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini> of > eastern Ulster <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster>.[11]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-10> The > name "Darini" implies descent from an ancestor called Dáire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire>, > (**Dārios*)[4] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3> as > claimed by several historical peoples identified as Érainn, including the > Dál Riata and Dál Fiatach in eastern Ulster[12]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-11> as > well the Érainn of Munster. An early name for Dundrum, County Down<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundrum,_County_Down>, > is recorded as *Dún Droma Dáirine*, and the name Dáirine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine> was > applied to the Corcu Loígde, further suggesting a relationship between the > Darini and the Iverni.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3> The genealogies trace the descent of the Érainn from two separate eponymous > ancestors, Ailill Érann and Íar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>. > Legendary relatives of the latter include the Cland Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cland_Dedad> (offspring > of Deda mac Sin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deda_mac_Sin>), a Munster > people who appear in the Ulster Cycle<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Cycle>, > led by Cú Roí <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>, son of Dáire > mac Dedad <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad>, and the > legendary High King <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland> Conaire > Mór <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r>, grandson of Iar and > ancestor of the Síl Conairi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>. > The historical sept of the Uí Maicc Iair ("grandsons of the son of Iar") and > the MAQI IARI of ogham inscriptions also appear to be related.[13]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-12> The > personal name *Iar* is simply another variant of the root present in > Iverni and Érainn.[14]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-13> Finally, > the name *Íth*, given in the genealogies as the ultimate ancestor of the > Corcu Loígde (Dáirine) and offering some confusion about their parentage and > relation to the Iverni, in fact preserves the same Indo-European root * > *peiH-* ("to be fat, swell"),[15]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-14> thus > in effect completing a basic picture of the Iverni/Érainn and their kindred > in later historical Ireland. Cú Roí <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD> = Conroy Conaire = Conroy T. F. O'Rahilly <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._F._O%27Rahilly> identified > the Érainn with the mythological Fir Bolg<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir_Bolg> and > the historical Belgae <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae> of Gaul<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul> > and Britain <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain>. He proposed > that they invaded from Britain and spoke a Brythonic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brythonic_languages> language, > which he named Ivernic and identified with a language referred to in a > number of early sources as *Iarnnbélrae*, *Iarnbélrae*, and *Iarmbérla*, > which, if treated as Old Irish <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish>, > means "Iron-speech". The 9th-century Irish dictionary *Sanas Cormaic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic> > * ("Cormac's glossary") describes *Iarnnbélrae* as a recently extinct > language which was "dense and difficult", and records two words which > derived from it.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3> However, > by the proto-historical period the Érainn were evidently Goidelic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goidelic>-speaking, > as evidenced by the fact that ogham <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham> inscriptions > in Primitive Irish <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Irish> are most > abundant in Counties Cork and Kerry.[16]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-15> More on Cú Roí <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cú_Roí Cheers, Paul On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Paul Conroy <pconroy63@gmail.com> wrote: > Gerry, > > I posted the following about 1 year ago on this list: > > Going back to the original subject, I see more info on "Conaire Mór" > (Conroy the Great) here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r > > Specifically that: > A descendant of Íar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>, > Conaire belonged to the legendary Clanna Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad>, > the legendary royal family of the Érainn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn>. > His descendants in Ireland and Scotland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland> were > known as the Síl Conairi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>. > The last king in the direct male line from Conaire Mór was Alexander III > of Scotland <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_III_of_Scotland>. > > The Clanna Dedad has an interesting geneology:<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r> > Descent of the Clanna Dedad > > Skipped generations are given in the notes. > > - Sen mac Rosin<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sen_mac_Rosin&action=edit&redlink=1> > [22] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-21> > - Dedu mac Sin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedu_mac_Sin> a quo *Clanna > Dedad* > - Íar mac Dedad <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad> > - Ailill Anglonnach<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ailill_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1> > - Éogan [23]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-22> > - Eterscél <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etersc%C3%A9l> > - Conaire Mór<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r> a > quo *Síl Conaire* > - Mug Láma > - Conaire Cóem<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_C%C3%B3em> > [24]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-23> > - Eochaid (Cairpre) Riata (Rigfhota), a quo > - *Dál Riata<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata> > * > - Erc of Dalriada<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erc_of_Dalriada> > [25]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-24> > - Fergus Mór<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_M%C3%B3r> > - Domangart Réti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domangart_R%C3%A9ti> > - Gabrán mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabr%C3%A1n_mac_Domangairt>, > a quo > - *Cenél nGabráin* > - *House of Alpin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Alpin> > * > - *House of Dunkeld<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Dunkeld> > * > - Comgall mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comgall_mac_Domangairt>, > a quo > - *Cenél Comgaill* > - Loarn mac Eirc<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loarn_mac_Eirc>, > a quo > - *Cenél Loairn* > - *House of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Moray> > * > - *Mormaers of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormaers_of_Moray> > * > - Óengus Mór mac Eirc, a quo > - *Cenél nÓengusa<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cen%C3%A9l_n%C3%93engusa> > * > - Cairpre Músc<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cairpre_M%C3%BAsc&action=edit&redlink=1>, > a quo > - *Múscraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige> > * > - Corc Duibne, a quo > - *Corcu Duibne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne> > * > - Cairpre Baschaín, a quo > - *Corcu Baiscind<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscind> > * > - Dáire mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad> / > Dairi Sirchrechtaig / Dáire Doimthech<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_Doimthech> > - Cú Roí mac Dáire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD_mac_D%C3%A1ire> > - Lugaid mac Con Roí<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugaid_mac_Con_Ro%C3%AD> > - Fuirme mac Con Roí [26]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-25> > - (F)Iatach Find<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn>, > a quo > - *Dál Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> > * > - *Dáirine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine>* > - *Corcu Loígde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde> > * [27]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-26> > [28]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-27> > - Conganchnes mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conganchnes_mac_Dedad> > - Conall Anglonnach mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Conall_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1> > ,[29] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-28> a > quo > - *Conaille Muirtheimne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaille_Muirtheimne> > * > - Eochaid (Echdach/Echach) mac Sin [30]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-29> > - Deitsin/Deitsini > - Dlúthaich/Dluthaig > - Dáire/Dairi > - Fir furmi [31]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-30> > - Fiatach Finn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn> > [32]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-31> / > Fiachach Fir Umai [33]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-32> > - *Dál Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach> > * > > > So the Dal Fiatach are actually related to the Dal Riata, both of North > Eastern Ireland. > > They are also related to tribes in the South West of Ireland: > 1. Corcu Duibne - West Co Kerry, Dingle Penninsula and related areas - > O'Shea, O'Falvey and O'Connell > 2. Corcu Loígde - West Co Cork - O'Driscoll (R-M222), Coffey<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffey> > , O'Leary <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Leary>, Hennessy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hennessy_(disambiguation)> > , Flynn <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn>, Dinneen<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinneen> > . O'Hea <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hea>, Cronin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronin> > , Dunlea<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunlea&action=edit&redlink=1> > 3. Corcu Bascind - South Co Clare - O'Baskin, MacDermot, > O'Donnell/MacDonnell (R-M222), MacMahon > > Cheers, > Paul > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Gerry <gerry@ringofgullion.com> wrote: > >> John, >> >> I might be able to shed some light on the Y-DNA of the Dál Fiatach, from >> two >> sources. One is the McEvoy study and the other is some research that Jerry >> Kelly, of this list, has just done for me. >> >> ========================================================================= >> 1) McEvoy et al. >> >> John posted this some time ago which he culled from the McEvoy study: >> Dunleavy Haughey MCGUINNESS >> >> 5 M222 of 12 14 M222 of 19 24 M222 of 99 >> Ulster (1) Most in Ulster Ulster >> (11) >> Leinster (2) Associated with Donegal&Armagh Connacht (10) >> Munster (1) O hEochaidh Leinster >> (3) >> Connacht (1) >> >> I post the McGuinnes just to emphasize what John posted below. They are >> generally not M222, but HG I. >> >> McEvoy normalized all of his names to one spelling. He normalized Haughey >> and McGuinness, so we don't know the original spellings of >> Haughey/Hoey/Hoy. >> >> As John noted above, the Haughey spelling is common in Donegal and Armagh >> while Hoey/Hoy is common in Louth and the surrounding counties. >> >> The Annals say that the Mac Dunveavys were expelled by the Normans from >> Ulidia and some went to Donegal (McInulty sp?). It is also said that some >> of >> the Ó hEochaidh went with them since they were really the same family, >> (see >> Jerry Kelly's work below). >> >> So, if any of McEvoy's M222 Haughey were from Donegal, they were from Dál >> Fiatach, which was their region of Ulidia. This points to the Dál Fiatach >> being M222. >> >> If any of McEvoy's Haughey were from the Louth area, they were really >> Hoey/Hoy/Ó hEochaidh. The Ó hEochaidh were from Dál Fiatach. My family is >> Hoy from mid-Louth and is M222. This points to the Dál Fiatach being M222. >> >> Note. A NPE from say, Donegal for my Louth family, is not likely since my >> M222 matches are half Irish and half Scots, which makes sense for a family >> based near Downptrick. >> >> >> =========================================================================== >> 2) Jerry Kelly's research. >> >> I thrashed around for months trying to understand what the Annals that I >> had >> access to, meant about my family. I gave up and went to Jerry Kelly who is >> a >> fluent Irish speaker and also understands the nuances of the Annals. >> >> He found that the Ó hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshléibhe were on the main branch of >> the Dál Fiatach rulers and that the Mac Duinnshléibhe had barely split >> from >> the Ó hEochaidh before the Normans arrived. >> >> “So for instance when after 1137 the Dal Fiatach kingship was confined >> to the descendants of Donn Sleibe Mac Eochada (slain in 1091), the >> rigdamnai >> set themselves apart from the rest of the family by using the name Mac >> Duinnshleibhe (Donleavy)." Byrne, page 128 >> >> The Ó hEochaidh family, (Sloinne Ó hEochaidh as Jerry taught me) took the >> name from Eochaidh mac Ardghair, who died in 979. Before that it was just >> "son of, son of, ..." >> >> Jerry used the non-translated Irish Annals to trace the line back reliably >> to 455 and less reliably earlier. >> >> So the Ó hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshléibhe line were the ruling family of Dál >> Fiatach back to the time of Patrick. Jerry has another story of how the >> family got to Louth with the help of the O'Loughlins and O'Carrols, but >> that >> is for another time. >> >> ========================================================================== >> >> Conclusion. >> >> With McEvoy's Haugheys and Jerry's work with the Annals and my M222 test >> and >> unusual matches, I pretty sure that the Dál Fiatach were M222, at least on >> the main line. >> >> We also know that in tribal societies, the bottom tier doesn't reproduce >> itself and the top tier over produces. So some people fall down each >> generation and eventually, on the male line, everyone is related. So if >> the >> ruling line is M222, so are all. >> >> Gerry Hoy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com >> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 11:58 PM >> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 >> >> Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui >> Neill >> (Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move north into >> Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin, natives of >> the >> territory. I do not know yet if he ties this into the Venicnii of >> Ptolemy >> (I only have one chapter copied) but he does mention a Winducatti in the >> Dunfanaghy area of Donegal which might be the same tribe. Much of his >> argument is based on Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to 690 AD. He tries >> to >> connect the Cenel Conaill to the Ui Eachach Cobha and the Cenel Eoghain >> to the Dal Fiatach, two familiar tribes from Ulster. In that he seems >> completely off-base. >> >> Can anyone connect M222 to either of these tribes? >> >> The Ui Eachach Cobha in particular were said to be Cruithin as an off >> shoot >> of the Dal nAraidi. The historical chieftains were the Maguinnes of Co. >> Down, whose chieftains were I haplogroup according to Patrick Guinness, >> associated with the Trinity DNA project. If anyone has the slightest >> idea >> what Dal Fiatach DNA looks like I haven't heard about it. >> >> >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >