Hi John, After my first testing at 37 STR markers I was designated as being R-M269, but then after testing for the earlier Deep Clade SNP test the results were then further refined and I was designated as R-M222. Everybody belongs to an SNP haplogroup such as M222 and a terminal SNP represents the furthest downstream or the most recent SNP of their haplogroup. Oh, and R-M222 and M222 are basically the same term, meaning the same thing. Doug On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 3:17 PM, David Maclennan <david.maclennan@utoronto.ca > wrote: > John, > I was fooled recently when I found a "new relative" at a GD of 7. I > searched him out and found that he shared 3/8/67 of my off-modals, which > cancelled out, but the main reason for the low GD was that he was so close > to modal that he added only 2 other differences from modal. That, plus my > 5 other off modals = 7. Incidentally, he is DF97+ and I am S7814+,F1265+. > > David > > > > On 2014-05-07, 3:01 PM, "john.loughney@gmail.com" > <john.loughney@gmail.com> wrote: > > >Hi all, > > > >I wonder if anyone has dug into their yDNA matches on FTDNA lately. If I > >look at my 12 step matches, there are a lot of people with updated > >haplogroups. Are they updating everyone's haplogroups proactively, and any > >sense if these updated haplogroups are accurate? > > > >I am seeing things like R-M269, R-DF23, R-P312, and a few blank > >haplogroups. I am still at M222 and all of my 67 step matches are either > >M222+ or blank. > > > >Oh, and one dumb question, what is the difference between Haplogroup and > >Terminal SNP on FTDNA? (R M222 vs M222 for example?) > > > >John > > > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Forgive me if this has been adequately covered elsewhere, but in intermittently reviewing the Digest and Iain and others' continual efforts to map our community to the most up-to-date information, it's become a bit overwhelming to know how best we individual participants can help the group by pursuing additional testing. This has become especially true following the mapping of some of the individuals who have pursued Big Y. Would it be possible for those who are closer to the current status to provide some general advice on what those who have pursued Chromo2 or Geno 2.0 may do to help refine these trees? Is there enough information for some of us to pursue individual SNP tests; are there broad areas of the tree where additional Big Y or FGC participants would be useful to the group? Should we hold off for now? How can we help? RG

> Date: Sun, 4 May 2014 11:46:42 -0500 > From: mwwdna@gmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Byrne - 236891 > > Part of the goal is to make it easier for more people to not to have to > worry about lots of people to work with, but that's okay. > No that is not the goal here. That dialog that you are in the process of removing is *critical* repeat critical to what I do and if I may say so, Susan does even more of it than I do. For me, not being a project admin, it is doubly critical as I have no direct way of communicating with a tester unless they are already known as a forum poster or make direct contact with me. You asked me if I am aware of Alex, of course I am aware of what he does and what you do. There is however no comparison between the high level analysis of upstream projects involving thousands of members and the detailed work looking at raw data, talking about other tests that have been done in the past, making sure followup tests are being considered etc. Telling people we have had no contact with that all they need to do is dump a file in some directory somewhere then disappear is not a solution. I want to hear from these people and I am sure Susan does too; likewise David and Linda although they at least can see email addresses so it may be less of an issue for them. Iain

Hi David, OK, so FTDNA is just calculating on rough distance and not factoring in SNPs. That's interesting. John On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 12:17 PM, David Maclennan < david.maclennan@utoronto.ca> wrote: > John, > I was fooled recently when I found a "new relative" at a GD of 7. I > searched him out and found that he shared 3/8/67 of my off-modals, which > cancelled out, but the main reason for the low GD was that he was so close > to modal that he added only 2 other differences from modal. That, plus my > 5 other off modals = 7. Incidentally, he is DF97+ and I am S7814+,F1265+. > > David > > > > On 2014-05-07, 3:01 PM, "john.loughney@gmail.com" > <john.loughney@gmail.com> wrote: > > >Hi all, > > > >I wonder if anyone has dug into their yDNA matches on FTDNA lately. If I > >look at my 12 step matches, there are a lot of people with updated > >haplogroups. Are they updating everyone's haplogroups proactively, and any > >sense if these updated haplogroups are accurate? > > > >I am seeing things like R-M269, R-DF23, R-P312, and a few blank > >haplogroups. I am still at M222 and all of my 67 step matches are either > >M222+ or blank. > > > >Oh, and one dumb question, what is the difference between Haplogroup and > >Terminal SNP on FTDNA? (R M222 vs M222 for example?) > > > >John > > > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Susan, "A group effort has advantages that individual efforts do not address...this is the point to consider -- Susan" This M222 project depends upon being a group effort! For instance, my 111 STR results, my Deep Clade SNP results and my Big Y SNP results are about worthless to me as an individual. But if those results are then combined with the results of many other individuals then a cumulative comparison of all of those results could then help to complete the BIG PICTURE, as to who we each are and where we come from. Your concern, however, has to do with the temporary nature of the Internet, that an Internet website could be here today but gone tomorrow, no matter where on the Internet we could go. And that leads to a consideration of occasional, hard-copy, printed publications such as an occasional magazine or other such publication, the advantage there being that such a publication might endure and last for perhaps hundreds of years. But that is a consideration which this group has not yet addressed. Now, where is that pot o' gold that I have heard so much about? :-D Doug On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Susan Hedeen < chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > AMOF, I was witness as many other's to Paul Duffy's effort here; and > that portions of the M222 information is available through internet > archive, but not all. None of that, however is the point. > > The point is that we haven't a project centralized location for > information, data, etc. that may be accessed by the many and maintained > in such a manner that in the eventuality that a major contributor drops > out or passes on that it may continue -- the torch for that person may > be passed to another with out a loss of the information etc. Whether or > not it is yahoo groups isn't the point. > > That offer had been extended quite some time ago...it is an option. > There are other options. Those options I was in hopes of would be the > topic of discussion along with some effort to organize rather than a > discussion of why not this or that or dismiss the discussion but the > fact that much of it really isn't gone because a person made certain or > that portions were picked up by internet archive. > > I have nothing against private endeavors and certainly those of us who > devote hundreds of thousands of hours of our volunteer time and make > that information available to others do so because we are interested. > > Wouldn't it be nice, however to have that information also in one place? > It takes very little time to up-load a file off a computer into a > structured filing system available to any who want to view Iain's trees, > the data sets that I keep, David Wilson keeps, David MacLennan keeps, > and what others keep -- key historical efforts such as what Alan > Milliken keeps along with the stuff than John kept; analyses using > different models of assessment for comparison; frequency charts, > sub-clade assessments, lineage assessments, analyses, etc? That is the > point. > > I could easily up-load tons of stuff to the L21 files without discussing > any of it and informing the list that it is there.... > > but the fact remains that R-M222 as a project hasn't a project place -- > we've a forum that is of value to us; we've project pages under the > FTDNA umbrella; and we've several individual endeavors run and > maintained privately by individuals that are of value to the project but > are NOT the project -- they are individual endeavors with certain > information on loan so to speak. > > A group effort has advantages that individual efforts do not > address...this is the point to consider -- Susan > > > > On 5/7/2014 7:42 AM, Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ wrote: > > I should note that other then been an alumni of NUIG I have no connection > > with it since I graduated in 2003. In this case the website is running > out > > of my public_html directory on the Computer Societies server where I > still > > have a shell account. > > > > -Paul > > (DF41+) > > > > > > On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Gerry Hoy <gerry.hoy@ringofgullion.com > >wrote: > > > >> John's website was copied to the NUI Galway server last July. I have > >> archived John's data and I know that others have too. > >> > >> The same disadvantages concerning a death apply to Yahoo Groups as well > as > >> a Website. If the owner dies and no one knows the login details in > either > >> case, the site becomes unusable eventually. If the details are known to > a > >> group of people, the site goes on. > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto: > >> dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 2:46 AM > >> To: dna-r1b1c7 > >> Subject: [R-M222] Catching up M222 > >> > >> John's web-site is now down. The plethora of M222 specific information > >> contained on John's site is now unavailable. As insensitive as this may > >> sound, private web-sites are wonderful until they are gone because the > >> owner dies and renewal not possible because of their passing. It would > be > >> of benefit to keep important files, analyses, observations, among other > >> things in a centralized location such as what L21 offers through yahoo > >> groups. Survival and availability of the information is more likely to > >> remain as the torch is passed within a group. It isn't such a big > thing to > >> join for access if one wants to access it. As a project, we could > accept > >> Mike's offer to help us set up a M222 specific place, and I suggest > that it > >> would benefit us to do so...we don't need to move the forum...the files > >> section could be tailored to suit the needs of the project within the > >> structure provided; and certain information should continue to be filed > in > >> L21 files as what is happening now even if for some stuff a > >> duplication...so that it is available to the researchers integrating it > >> within the parent sub-clade. > >> > >> I hope there is further discussion of this. Well I've now over 231 > emails > >> to attend to...likely will not get through them tonight. Thank you to > those > >> who have sent their testing information to me; please continue to do so. > >> There are many I need to respond to privately...I will do so within > the > >> next several days. Susan > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I should note that other then been an alumni of NUIG I have no connection with it since I graduated in 2003. In this case the website is running out of my public_html directory on the Computer Societies server where I still have a shell account. -Paul (DF41+) On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Gerry Hoy <gerry.hoy@ringofgullion.com>wrote: > John's website was copied to the NUI Galway server last July. I have > archived John's data and I know that others have too. > > The same disadvantages concerning a death apply to Yahoo Groups as well as > a Website. If the owner dies and no one knows the login details in either > case, the site becomes unusable eventually. If the details are known to a > group of people, the site goes on. > > The disadvantages of Yahoo Groups and the Rootsweb mailing list are well > known. They are old technology and do not allow the modern use of a web > interface. No graphics, no links, no tables, just 1990 again. > > Here are the links that Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ has set up. > > http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/ > > http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/McLaughlin/ > > http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/dougherty/ > > Gerry Hoy > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto: > dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen > Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 2:46 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7 > Subject: [R-M222] Catching up M222 > > John's web-site is now down. The plethora of M222 specific information > contained on John's site is now unavailable. As insensitive as this may > sound, private web-sites are wonderful until they are gone because the > owner dies and renewal not possible because of their passing. It would be > of benefit to keep important files, analyses, observations, among other > things in a centralized location such as what L21 offers through yahoo > groups. Survival and availability of the information is more likely to > remain as the torch is passed within a group. It isn't such a big thing to > join for access if one wants to access it. As a project, we could accept > Mike's offer to help us set up a M222 specific place, and I suggest that it > would benefit us to do so...we don't need to move the forum...the files > section could be tailored to suit the needs of the project within the > structure provided; and certain information should continue to be filed in > L21 files as what is happening now even if for some stuff a > duplication...so that it is available to the researchers integrating it > within the parent sub-clade. > > I hope there is further discussion of this. Well I've now over 231 emails > to attend to...likely will not get through them tonight. Thank you to those > who have sent their testing information to me; please continue to do so. > There are many I need to respond to privately...I will do so within the > next several days. Susan > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Iain, Great tree as always, any chance of an update on the SNP only tree at some stage: www.kennedydna.com/M222_tree.png Useful reference for SNP order etc. -Paul (DF41+) On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com>wrote: > Somehow I missed Oliver Byrne 236891 who is S660/S659 on Chromo2 so I have > added him, with apologies. > > Is S660 going to overtake DF97?! > > Iain > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > > > > > > From: ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 18:29:20 +0000 > > Subject: [R-M222] Tree update > > > > The latest version of the tree shows > > > > Steve Lominac has moved under FGC4087 > > Patrick J Byrnes #42289 has reported S590 from Chromo2 > > Male Kennedy (no STRs) is confirmed FGC4077- S661+ S588- DF85-. > > > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi all, I've been reading with interest the many results that seem to be pouring in, but I've seen very little about F3952 except a note that it is "a rare subtype found in England and Scotland." I'm the F3952 Mitchell in this very select group - N10119. Have we learned anything more about F3952? Any idea where in Scotland, England...or Ireland it may have originated? Any next steps I should take...or is it still kinda wait and see? Thanks! Eric 

Hi all, I wonder if anyone has dug into their yDNA matches on FTDNA lately. If I look at my 12 step matches, there are a lot of people with updated haplogroups. Are they updating everyone's haplogroups proactively, and any sense if these updated haplogroups are accurate? I am seeing things like R-M269, R-DF23, R-P312, and a few blank haplogroups. I am still at M222 and all of my 67 step matches are either M222+ or blank. Oh, and one dumb question, what is the difference between Haplogroup and Terminal SNP on FTDNA? (R M222 vs M222 for example?) John

Not to mention John Carey now FGC4087+!! > From: ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 11:37:06 +0000 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Tree update > > Somehow I missed Oliver Byrne 236891 who is S660/S659 on Chromo2 so I have added him, with apologies. > > Is S660 going to overtake DF97?! > > Iain > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > > > > > > From: ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 18:29:20 +0000 > > Subject: [R-M222] Tree update > > > > The latest version of the tree shows > > > > Steve Lominac has moved under FGC4087 > > Patrick J Byrnes #42289 has reported S590 from Chromo2 > > Male Kennedy (no STRs) is confirmed FGC4077- S661+ S588- DF85-. > > > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I was trying to find my notes on this as I remembered us discussing it. I did point out to Susan that the web archive has a reasonable copy too at https://web.archive.org/web/20130522194819/http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ Iain > From: gerry.hoy@ringofgullion.com > To: ChantillyCarpets@earthlink.net; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 07:37:34 -0400 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Catching up M222 > > John's website was copied to the NUI Galway server last July. I have archived John's data and I know that others have too. > > The same disadvantages concerning a death apply to Yahoo Groups as well as a Website. If the owner dies and no one knows the login details in either case, the site becomes unusable eventually. If the details are known to a group of people, the site goes on. > > The disadvantages of Yahoo Groups and the Rootsweb mailing list are well known. They are old technology and do not allow the modern use of a web interface. No graphics, no links, no tables, just 1990 again. > > Here are the links that Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ has set up. > > http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/ > > http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/McLaughlin/ > > http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/dougherty/ > > Gerry Hoy > > -----Original Message-----

Somehow I missed Oliver Byrne 236891 who is S660/S659 on Chromo2 so I have added him, with apologies. Is S660 going to overtake DF97?! Iain http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > From: ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 18:29:20 +0000 > Subject: [R-M222] Tree update > > The latest version of the tree shows > > Steve Lominac has moved under FGC4087 > Patrick J Byrnes #42289 has reported S590 from Chromo2 > Male Kennedy (no STRs) is confirmed FGC4077- S661+ S588- DF85-. > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > Iain > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

AMOF, I was witness as many other's to Paul Duffy's effort here; and that portions of the M222 information is available through internet archive, but not all. None of that, however is the point. The point is that we haven't a project centralized location for information, data, etc. that may be accessed by the many and maintained in such a manner that in the eventuality that a major contributor drops out or passes on that it may continue -- the torch for that person may be passed to another with out a loss of the information etc. Whether or not it is yahoo groups isn't the point. That offer had been extended quite some time ago...it is an option. There are other options. Those options I was in hopes of would be the topic of discussion along with some effort to organize rather than a discussion of why not this or that or dismiss the discussion but the fact that much of it really isn't gone because a person made certain or that portions were picked up by internet archive. I have nothing against private endeavors and certainly those of us who devote hundreds of thousands of hours of our volunteer time and make that information available to others do so because we are interested. Wouldn't it be nice, however to have that information also in one place? It takes very little time to up-load a file off a computer into a structured filing system available to any who want to view Iain's trees, the data sets that I keep, David Wilson keeps, David MacLennan keeps, and what others keep -- key historical efforts such as what Alan Milliken keeps along with the stuff than John kept; analyses using different models of assessment for comparison; frequency charts, sub-clade assessments, lineage assessments, analyses, etc? That is the point. I could easily up-load tons of stuff to the L21 files without discussing any of it and informing the list that it is there.... but the fact remains that R-M222 as a project hasn't a project place -- we've a forum that is of value to us; we've project pages under the FTDNA umbrella; and we've several individual endeavors run and maintained privately by individuals that are of value to the project but are NOT the project -- they are individual endeavors with certain information on loan so to speak. A group effort has advantages that individual efforts do not address...this is the point to consider -- Susan On 5/7/2014 7:42 AM, Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ wrote: > I should note that other then been an alumni of NUIG I have no connection > with it since I graduated in 2003. In this case the website is running out > of my public_html directory on the Computer Societies server where I still > have a shell account. > > -Paul > (DF41+) > > > On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Gerry Hoy <gerry.hoy@ringofgullion.com>wrote: > >> John's website was copied to the NUI Galway server last July. I have >> archived John's data and I know that others have too. >> >> The same disadvantages concerning a death apply to Yahoo Groups as well as >> a Website. If the owner dies and no one knows the login details in either >> case, the site becomes unusable eventually. If the details are known to a >> group of people, the site goes on. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto: >> dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen >> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 2:46 AM >> To: dna-r1b1c7 >> Subject: [R-M222] Catching up M222 >> >> John's web-site is now down. The plethora of M222 specific information >> contained on John's site is now unavailable. As insensitive as this may >> sound, private web-sites are wonderful until they are gone because the >> owner dies and renewal not possible because of their passing. It would be >> of benefit to keep important files, analyses, observations, among other >> things in a centralized location such as what L21 offers through yahoo >> groups. Survival and availability of the information is more likely to >> remain as the torch is passed within a group. It isn't such a big thing to >> join for access if one wants to access it. As a project, we could accept >> Mike's offer to help us set up a M222 specific place, and I suggest that it >> would benefit us to do so...we don't need to move the forum...the files >> section could be tailored to suit the needs of the project within the >> structure provided; and certain information should continue to be filed in >> L21 files as what is happening now even if for some stuff a >> duplication...so that it is available to the researchers integrating it >> within the parent sub-clade. >> >> I hope there is further discussion of this. Well I've now over 231 emails >> to attend to...likely will not get through them tonight. Thank you to those >> who have sent their testing information to me; please continue to do so. >> There are many I need to respond to privately...I will do so within the >> next several days. Susan >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

John's website was copied to the NUI Galway server last July. I have archived John's data and I know that others have too. The same disadvantages concerning a death apply to Yahoo Groups as well as a Website. If the owner dies and no one knows the login details in either case, the site becomes unusable eventually. If the details are known to a group of people, the site goes on. The disadvantages of Yahoo Groups and the Rootsweb mailing list are well known. They are old technology and do not allow the modern use of a web interface. No graphics, no links, no tables, just 1990 again. Here are the links that Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ has set up. http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/ http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/McLaughlin/ http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/dougherty/ Gerry Hoy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Hedeen Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 2:46 AM To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] Catching up M222 John's web-site is now down. The plethora of M222 specific information contained on John's site is now unavailable. As insensitive as this may sound, private web-sites are wonderful until they are gone because the owner dies and renewal not possible because of their passing. It would be of benefit to keep important files, analyses, observations, among other things in a centralized location such as what L21 offers through yahoo groups. Survival and availability of the information is more likely to remain as the torch is passed within a group. It isn't such a big thing to join for access if one wants to access it. As a project, we could accept Mike's offer to help us set up a M222 specific place, and I suggest that it would benefit us to do so...we don't need to move the forum...the files section could be tailored to suit the needs of the project within the structure provided; and certain information should continue to be filed in L21 files as what is happening now even ! if for some stuff a duplication...so that it is available to the researchers integrating it within the parent sub-clade. I hope there is further discussion of this. Well I've now over 231 emails to attend to...likely will not get through them tonight. Thank you to those who have sent their testing information to me; please continue to do so. There are many I need to respond to privately...I will do so within the next several days. Susan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Apologies... for a multi-part post. I've been totally off grid since Friday and partially off grid for the week preceding attending to some non-YDNA personals; logging in this eve to find 526 messages (since Friday morning US-EDT) of which I've viewed now 304. As an up-date, one of the things I've been muddling with is the data set of the SNP results via the various vendors. It changes nearly daily. I do promise, however that a revised spread sheet is on its way. Thank you, Iain, for the up-dated tree. I also must echo what others have reminded us of -- your work in this is of tremendous value. A couple of comments. There are hundreds of M222 predicted and confirmed results sitting in projects of tested results not part of the R-M222 haplogroup project. One of the benefits of Mike W's data bases is that many of these he has picked up and has them in his varieties spread sheets. Dito on Mike's work, and his data bases are among the most comprehensive within the entire community and of great value to every sub-clade of L21 of which R-M222 is an integral part. The grand majority of M222 not found in these spread sheets are for fellows who have tested to a max of 37 markers. If there is substantive SNP testing accompanying those results, assessment may be of interest; however without the SNP testing the 37 marker status of these results are not particularly informative unto themselves; there is a caveat to this in that in the surname projects, often known lineages linked through well documented genealogies may test a few representatives of the different branches, extending both STRs and SNP information while suggesting that others simply nest. The reason for this is that the primary interest in the YDNA is in the measurable by document search genealogies, many to most not particularly interested in surveying origins. This is true of all the haplogroups, not just M222. As for M222, to some extent for many of these, if predicted as M222 because of all the previous marketing and "Badging" campaigns the assumption is that they descend from the ancient "King Niall of the Irish" and that is the end of their considerations unless one or more becomes more curious and searches out our haplogroup project and/or through the matching schemes there is out-reach to bring them in. Regarding the matching schemes as offered by FTDNA -- they are a valuable resource; however, they are not fool proof. The matching similarities as assessed by FTDNA do not necessarily translate and track across the board. The closer a haplotype is to the R-M222 modal haplotype the more matches there will be...and these matches as we should be fully aware by now are going to fall within several different down stream M222 sub-clades. Although I've talked about this a few times, I'd like to re-iterate what a modal haplotype is: A constructed haplotype representing the majority per allele STR. It has been described as an ancestral haplotype -- it is NOT. The haplotypes of today's test results have evolved through many generations of mutations -- up, down, and back and these mutations are, yes inherited from father to son; however, any particular mutation similarity, particularly out of surname coupled with increasing genetic distance may be coincidental. Coming back to the haplotype matching phenomena, the haplotypes generally are valuable for the lineages; I'm not so certain that they are predictive of SNPs unless that SNP may have mutated less than a thousand years ago. There has been some confusion about this because some lineages that carry distinctive haplotypes also fall within certain sub-clades. That information is valuable, and similar haplotypes, particularly if the haplotype is very distinctive could be speculated to fall within the same sub-clade...however...speculation needs validated. As Paul Burns has so eloquently explained, the variously spelled BYRNE are exampling no less than 4--5 (maybe more by the time I finish this) to date different R-M222 sub-clades, and the haplotypes to some extent suggest sub-divisions of these lineages, but because of the allele mutations, the actual SNP verifications are highly recommended. I do find it exceedingly interesting that these BYRNE sub-clades seem to be following a trail down one side of the tree. Whether this is coincidence -- (could be) -- or indicative of something more profound -- (also could be) -- remains to be seen. I suggest, however, as mentioned as we began sticking our toes in the water that the study of the lineages within their sub-clade groups and in comparison is going to be informative to both the lineages as well as to the project. There are numerous groups to be studied and compared in the future as the clade defining SNP groups fill out. I understand the degree of excitement that SNPs are being ID'd under the major branches. These newly ID'd SNPs need a good amount of work. Although I think it is very important to keep track of these SNPs as is being done and investigating further, I also think it important to maintain the data in the major branch groups as a branch until such time as there is a break away such is appearing the case with S4087 where it is clear that several surnames with significant genetic distance is extending the S7073 branch. We may see more of this with the other sub-clades -- right now DF97 is investigating one to see if it will be a sub-divider. Undoubtedly S660/DF109 is going to exhibit. But as has been done with the investigations through Chromo2 in regard to these major branches, these newly through sequencing ID'd SNPs need vetting and wide testing to determine whether or not they are of the significance that say S4087 has promise of. Until there is clear definition, however, the data set I'm keeping while maintaining SNP notations is going to keep the major branches basically together. Otherwise the fracturing of the groups without better understanding of the meaning of these new SNPs will cause substantive assessment of the groups nearly impossible. What the new SNPs will help us with, hopefully are the branches of the lineages themselves. [This is an aside, but of equal importance are those who may be the single representative of a lineage tested and confirmed. Somewhat of a concern to me, is uneven distributions. Some of the surnames are well tested while others are not, and in many of these instances a known related and/or speculatively related lineage will test many members that coalesce together leaving those who test because of surname only often finding themselves in singleton situations. This does NOT mean anything really other than there is a testing bias resultant of choice to test by those actively researching their genealogies. Although genealogy and genetic genealogy seem to be popular interests, in reality the numbers of those in hot pursuit through YDNA investigations is well in the minority when stacked up against the numbers involved in genealogy and both in comparison to population general. For those fellows in the singletons to few situation, many of them feel a bit lonely and marginalized, particularly if within their surname groups most tested are coalescing as lineages other than what theirs is. It has been my observation that some go so far as to believe that they may be the result of a NPE situation simply because there are not others tested in their surname with YDNA similar to theirs. Certainly, we cannot dismiss the actuality of NPE situations, but I suggest that often is the case that unless it is known and/or suspected otherwise the possibility is seized upon simply because the data base of the tested is what it is. Compound this with the reality that so many do not verify their genealogies through actual documentation and/or brick wall during the 1800's and earlier. I'm afraid that the only cure for this is the hard and often disappointing endeavor to find and convince others in surname that are speculated to be related to test -- and re-commit to the paper trail searches as well] As I'm getting back on the horse over the next several days, I'm going to offer a suggestion that the project think about taking Mike up on helping us set up a M222 centralized location for files of data, observations, analyses and anything of M222 interest specifically. Presently I file with individual member permissions the Chromo2 results and SNP reports with haplotypes and basic group TMRCA -- (I'm a bit behind on that at the moment). Mike has been filing the BIGY results as well as Chromo2 result sent to him. I believe this filing is important because it gives a centralized location for the information rather than being scattered around hither and yon, and the comparisons of this information for the integration into the "BIG PICTURE" is extraordinarily important. Other researchers such as Alex Williamson, James Kane, Chris McCown among others are turning this information into different types of data sets, graphs, charts, etc that address different aspects of the testing data all of it important and useful; others viewing all these different forms of information interpretively, assess along with other observations that may be furthered, theorized, and tested. I rather believe that the project and the list wants to preserve its forum under the rootsweb banner. This is fine, but the problem remains that except for the project pages maintained mostly by Linda, except for what is being filed centrally in the L21 files, there is no centralized location that may be accessed for any of the data among other things otherwise. John's web-site is now down. The plethora of M222 specific information contained on John's site is now unavailable. As insensitive as this may sound, private web-sites are wonderful until they are gone because the owner dies and renewal not possible because of their passing. It would be of benefit to keep important files, analyses, observations, among other things in a centralized location such as what L21 offers through yahoo groups. Survival and availability of the information is more likely to remain as the torch is passed within a group. It isn't such a big thing to join for access if one wants to access it. As a project, we could accept Mike's offer to help us set up a M222 specific place, and I suggest that it would benefit us to do so...we don't need to move the forum...the files section could be tailored to suit the needs of the project within the structure provided; and certain information should continue to be filed in L21 files as what is happening now even if for some stuff a duplication...so that it is available to the researchers integrating it within the parent sub-clade. I hope there is further discussion of this. Well I've now over 231 emails to attend to...likely will not get through them tonight. Thank you to those who have sent their testing information to me; please continue to do so. There are many I need to respond to privately...I will do so within the next several days. Susan

The latest version of the tree shows Steve Lominac has moved under FGC4087 Patrick J Byrnes #42289 has reported S590 from Chromo2 Male Kennedy (no STRs) is confirmed FGC4077- S661+ S588- DF85-. http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf Iain

I am having a problem with my old browser. You might have better success finding new censuses at following web site.  http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

The National Archives have recently placed online the  surviving fragments of census years 1821, 1831, 1841 and 1851 at following web site. censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/search/cs/home.jsp

Geoff,    This might sound odd but I have some very complete records for some cemetery in Armagh. Do you know the name of the church you are looking for records in? Mike McNally On Sunday, May 4, 2014 7:43 PM, Margaret and Geoff Melloy <mg_melloy@hotmail.com> wrote: SORRY MAKE THAT EARLY 19th CENTURY -----Original Message----- From: mg_melloy@hotmail.com Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 9:38 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Womens' names in Ireland This may be a bit off-topic, but I have a question about church birth records in Ireland (specifically Armagh) in the early 18th century. In the case of a woman who has remarried, would it be normal / uncommon / rare for her to give her former married surname on her children's birth records, rather than her original birth surname? I haven't been able to get an informed opinion on this, so I hope one of you out there may be able to help. Thanks Geoff Melloy -----Original Message----- From: john.loughney@gmail.com Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 8:02 AM To: Lawrence Dill ; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Womens' names in Ireland Lawrence, Couple of things to remember.  For Catholics, the baptismal name had to be a saint, and might be written as the Latin version. For civil society, the English required names to be in English. In the family, almost always the names would be in Irish. So, the person might have 3 names, plus pet names, if there were other family members (mothers, aunts, cousins) with the same name, which was usually the case. So Ellie could have also been from Helen or Ellen, which also had the diminuative Nellie / Nell besides Ellie. For Isabella, the English version would have been Elizabeth, and Ailis in Irish.  Woulffe says: ISIBÉAL, genitive *idem* (the same), Isabella, Sybil, Sibby, Elizabeth, Eliza, Bessie, (Annabel, Annabella, Bella); the French form of Elizabeth ( *see* Ailís <http://www.libraryireland.com/names/women/ailis-alicia.php>); apparently the form in which the name first came into Ireland; still in use, but rare; also Sibéal. http://www.libraryireland.com/names/women/isibeal-isabella.php On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Lawrence Dill <lawrencedill@ymail.com>wrote: > I suspect that many women living in Ireland during > the 1800's were known by their short name or diminutive. > Ellie is a diminutive of Eleanor. Betty is a diminutive of > Elizabeth. What would have been the most likely short > name of Isabella in County Donegal? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

SORRY MAKE THAT EARLY 19th CENTURY -----Original Message----- From: mg_melloy@hotmail.com Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 9:38 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Womens' names in Ireland This may be a bit off-topic, but I have a question about church birth records in Ireland (specifically Armagh) in the early 18th century. In the case of a woman who has remarried, would it be normal / uncommon / rare for her to give her former married surname on her children's birth records, rather than her original birth surname? I haven't been able to get an informed opinion on this, so I hope one of you out there may be able to help. Thanks Geoff Melloy -----Original Message----- From: john.loughney@gmail.com Sent: Monday, May 05, 2014 8:02 AM To: Lawrence Dill ; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Womens' names in Ireland Lawrence, Couple of things to remember. For Catholics, the baptismal name had to be a saint, and might be written as the Latin version. For civil society, the English required names to be in English. In the family, almost always the names would be in Irish. So, the person might have 3 names, plus pet names, if there were other family members (mothers, aunts, cousins) with the same name, which was usually the case. So Ellie could have also been from Helen or Ellen, which also had the diminuative Nellie / Nell besides Ellie. For Isabella, the English version would have been Elizabeth, and Ailis in Irish. Woulffe says: ISIBÉAL, genitive *idem* (the same), Isabella, Sybil, Sibby, Elizabeth, Eliza, Bessie, (Annabel, Annabella, Bella); the French form of Elizabeth ( *see* Ailís <http://www.libraryireland.com/names/women/ailis-alicia.php>); apparently the form in which the name first came into Ireland; still in use, but rare; also Sibéal. http://www.libraryireland.com/names/women/isibeal-isabella.php On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 2:25 PM, Lawrence Dill <lawrencedill@ymail.com>wrote: > I suspect that many women living in Ireland during > the 1800's were known by their short name or diminutive. > Ellie is a diminutive of Eleanor. Betty is a diminutive of > Elizabeth. What would have been the most likely short > name of Isabella in County Donegal? > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message