FTDNA confirmed Doherty R-M222. Dave Wilson used to send out updated to the project but it's been awhile since I looked at my account. What are the newest findings? Kindly thanks. J Sent from my iPad

Glad to hear you are proceeding with S566 and some of your Down Stream SNPs, too. I agree the tree is looking quite phenomenal. Thanks, Iain. Susan On 5/29/2014 3:08 PM, Paul Conroy wrote: > Iain, > > Thanks to you and all the other collaborators for getting this far. > > Is it possible to get an updated tree, with just the branch labels and > SNP's? I'm going to try and get a few more people to test for the SNP just > above PF1169, which is S566? I'm also try and get more of my private SNP's > listed by YSEQ, as then people who are positive can for S566, can then > begin to test for these. > > As many of you know, PF1169 has been deemed too hard to create a single SNP > (Sanger Sequencing) test for, as it is in a highly repetitive area of the > Y-chromosome. > > Cheers, > Paul > >

I see another M222 Big-Y result, so Sheridan is FGC4087?

With the DF97 result for the O'Donnell and DF97 priors result for the Dohertys. Then DF97 within the native pedigrees for these families must have occurred at or before: Cindfhaeladh son of Airndelaigh m. Mail duinn m. Cindfhaeladh m. Gairb m. Ronan m. Lugdach m. Sétna mic Fergus m. Conaill Gulban m. Néill Noígiallaig The Dohertys descend from Cindfhaeladh's descendant Dochartaigh m Maenghuile m Fiamhain [m. Cindfhaeladh] The O'Donnell descend from Cindfhaeladh's descendant Domnaill m. Éicnich m. Dálaich m. Muirchertaich [m. Cindfhaeladh] [Additional the DF97 Strain is also most like from a descendant of Cindfhaeladh's brother, i.e., O Sruthain are said to be of Ui Murtele of Clan Snedgaile, from Snedhgil m. Airnealach m. Mealduin m. Cindfhaeladh. Hence DF97 this may push the mutation back a generation to Cindfhaeladh's father Airndelaigh m. Mail duinn m. Cindfhaeladh] > > I see a new DF97+ in the Ireland project. O'Donnell (*329279)* he's only > tested to 37 STR's, he was already confirmed DF85+. >

Iain, Thanks to you and all the other collaborators for getting this far. Is it possible to get an updated tree, with just the branch labels and SNP's? I'm going to try and get a few more people to test for the SNP just above PF1169, which is S566? I'm also try and get more of my private SNP's listed by YSEQ, as then people who are positive can for S566, can then begin to test for these. As many of you know, PF1169 has been deemed too hard to create a single SNP (Sanger Sequencing) test for, as it is in a highly repetitive area of the Y-chromosome. Cheers, Paul On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 3:01 PM, john.loughney@gmail.com < john.loughney@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for this, the tree is definitely looking interesting. For us S600+ > DF85- folks with Chromo 2 tests, are the recommended SNPs A259, A260, S588, > A223, A224, A225, ... for a total of (at least) 6 SNPs to test? > > I think I am going to bite the bullet ... > > thanks, > John > > > On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com > > > wrote: > > > I have now managed to get hold of enough data and permissions to upload a > > new tree with the following changes > > > > 1. FGC4087 has now been merged with FGC4077 and FGC4078 > > 2. The FGC12948 branch linking Wilson and Sheridan has been added > > underneath > > 3. Four people have been moved under FGC8739 which is under DF97: McKee > > B4398, Donaldson, McConnaughhay 205297 and Dowell > > 4. Dunbar 205549 has been added under S7814 (he is F1265-), he shares no > > markers with Hamilton on first look > > 5. O'Donnell 329279 is now under DF97 > > 6. Moody 565 and Braswell 230303 appear to have the same combination of > > A259+, A260+ but no report for FGC5939.2 as does O'Shaughnessy so I have > > put the three of them together provisionally, pending a review of the raw > > data to confirm the ancestral status for FGC5939. > > > > I would hope that those who got an S660 as their terminal SNP from > Chromo2 > > or FTDNA/YSEQ but have NO sequencing results would be testing these new > > branches. All the sub-branches of S660 are on sale at shop.YSEQ.net. As > > explained previously, if you DID do a BigY or FGC test you should already > > know your status for them, although if you haven't got a BAM file and > > shared it with me that may still be awaiting final proof. > > > > The other big block that needs breaking up is DF97 and there you can test > > FGC8739. > > > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I see a new DF97+ in the Ireland project. O'Donnell (*329279)* he's only tested to 37 STR's, he was already confirmed DF85+. -Paul (DF41+)

Until June 15th its worth considering just a small group of SNPs at YSEQ at USD25 each; for example S660, FGC4077, S588, DF85 together would be only USD100. Chromo2 has good overall coverage of sub-M222 SNPs but there are a few that aren't on it - FGC4077/8/87 and the new branches under S660. Right now FTDNA is the last choice. Later in the year things may change around of course. Iain > From: dbarne@nb.sympatico.ca > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 11:02:24 -0300 > Subject: [R-M222] Which is better for subdividing m222, chromo2 or ftdna tests like df85 and df97 > > Hello, > > > > I'm an m222, but not of the fdna niall badge variety. I'd like to find out > what subdivision I fall into. I've read that > > Chromo2 raw data gives you superset of df85 but you can't tell if you fall > into df85 or not from chromo2 raw data. I've > > Previously bought all-my-ancestry y and mtdna tests from scotlandsDna and > ydna test from ftdna. What's my best > > bet for subdividing m222 - purchase of ftdna df85 and maybe df97 snp tests , > or the chromo2 raw data update available on special until may 31? > > > > Thanks, > > Donald Barnett, (Scottish ancestor born in Orkney) > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for this, the tree is definitely looking interesting. For us S600+ DF85- folks with Chromo 2 tests, are the recommended SNPs A259, A260, S588, A223, A224, A225, ... for a total of (at least) 6 SNPs to test? I think I am going to bite the bullet ... thanks, John On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> wrote: > I have now managed to get hold of enough data and permissions to upload a > new tree with the following changes > > 1. FGC4087 has now been merged with FGC4077 and FGC4078 > 2. The FGC12948 branch linking Wilson and Sheridan has been added > underneath > 3. Four people have been moved under FGC8739 which is under DF97: McKee > B4398, Donaldson, McConnaughhay 205297 and Dowell > 4. Dunbar 205549 has been added under S7814 (he is F1265-), he shares no > markers with Hamilton on first look > 5. O'Donnell 329279 is now under DF97 > 6. Moody 565 and Braswell 230303 appear to have the same combination of > A259+, A260+ but no report for FGC5939.2 as does O'Shaughnessy so I have > put the three of them together provisionally, pending a review of the raw > data to confirm the ancestral status for FGC5939. > > I would hope that those who got an S660 as their terminal SNP from Chromo2 > or FTDNA/YSEQ but have NO sequencing results would be testing these new > branches. All the sub-branches of S660 are on sale at shop.YSEQ.net. As > explained previously, if you DID do a BigY or FGC test you should already > know your status for them, although if you haven't got a BAM file and > shared it with me that may still be awaiting final proof. > > The other big block that needs breaking up is DF97 and there you can test > FGC8739. > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > Iain > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello, I'm an m222, but not of the fdna niall badge variety. I'd like to find out what subdivision I fall into. I've read that Chromo2 raw data gives you superset of df85 but you can't tell if you fall into df85 or not from chromo2 raw data. I've Previously bought all-my-ancestry y and mtdna tests from scotlandsDna and ydna test from ftdna. What's my best bet for subdividing m222 - purchase of ftdna df85 and maybe df97 snp tests , or the chromo2 raw data update available on special until may 31? Thanks, Donald Barnett, (Scottish ancestor born in Orkney)

Dear Donald, Perhaps there is a misinterpretation regarding Chromo2 raw data. For those M222 who do not know where they fall in the phylogenetic scheme of M222, Chromo2 Raw Data is an excellent product to sort that out. The majority of major down stream SNPs falling below M222 are tested by the scan; DF97 is the only exception that I am aware of, and of course some of the newer ID'd SNPs coming out of next generation sequencing, the majority of those we know little about yet, and some are under investigation. You could test singly through FTDNA for some SNPs and through YSEQ for most of those that are on Chromo2 less expensively than at FTDNA at least until June 15. If you are DF97 coming out of single SNP testing there is an additional SNP speculatively below it your could test, but the early looks for that seem to indicate that a lot of DF97 will also test positive for it, so it's utility for further subdividing DF97 is yet in question. If on the other hand you were DF85+ and DF97- there is another SNP in S668 in between and you would want to test that to see. The catch is with single SNP testing is that if you are negative for the targeted SNPs then you are only as far ahead in the game to know what you are not, but you still don't know what you are. If your finances are such that about $200.00 American isn't an burden, many to most of us would recommend Chromo2 Raw data. Barring that, you could single SNP test...presently at the YSEQ sale, $105.00 will purchase you 4 SNPs, and that is until June 15...unless extended on June 16 the price goes up. Presently FTDNA is $39.00 per SNP and if you've never done any up-grading there will be an additional transfer fee of $10.00. I hope you find the helpful. Susan On 5/29/2014 10:02 AM, Donald Alexander Barnett wrote: > Hello, > > > > I'm an m222, but not of the fdna niall badge variety. I'd like to find out > what subdivision I fall into. I've read that > > Chromo2 raw data gives you superset of df85 but you can't tell if you fall > into df85 or not from chromo2 raw data. I've > > Previously bought all-my-ancestry y and mtdna tests from scotlandsDna and > ydna test from ftdna. What's my best > > bet for subdividing m222 - purchase of ftdna df85 and maybe df97 snp tests , > or the chromo2 raw data update available on special until may 31? > > > > Thanks, > > Donald Barnett, (Scottish ancestor born in Orkney) > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I should have added that there was an adoption in Sheridan's line a century or so back, so it is at present not clear what the patrilineal surname was originally. Dvaid -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 8:36 AM To: dna-r1b1c7; dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] Sheridan is FGC4087? I see another M222 Big-Y result, so Sheridan is FGC4087? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, he is. He is also FGC12948+, a SNP he shares with me. This is the first solid division below FGC4087, and other FGC4087+ individuals have already ordered tests of the SNP from YSEQ. David WIlson -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 8:36 AM To: dna-r1b1c7; dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] Sheridan is FGC4087? I see another M222 Big-Y result, so Sheridan is FGC4087? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

.My take on this is that the idea that there are significantly different "blood lines" is more or less hooey. You can read a news story about this paper at: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/05/07/charlemagnes-dna-and-our- universal-royalty/ and the paper itself at: http://www.stat.yale.edu/~jtc5/papers/CommonAncestors/AAP_99_CommonAncestors _paper.pdf David Ewing Hi David Blarney is the more accurate word you are looking for, not hooey, Blarney is Irish...Hooey is Russian Urban Dictionary: hooey www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hooey - Similar to Urban Dictionary: hooey Hooey. phonetically, this word means "prick" (i.e., the vernacular for penis) in Russian, although it is better transliterated as "khuy" or "khui." "A vot tebe khuy! blar·ney noun \ˈblär-nē\ : talk that is not true but that is nice and somewhat funny and that may be used to trick you Examples of BLARNEY She was charmed by his blarney. a tale with more than a hint of blarney Origin of BLARNEY Blarney stone, a stone in Blarney Castle, near Cork, Ireland, held to bestow skill in flattery on those who kiss it First Known Use: 1780 Related to BLARNEY Synonyms

Despite all this, I'm not going to abandon my royal status lightly! Whatever the theories may be, I think the occurrence of separate concentrations of traditionally Cenel nEogain and Cenel Conaill surnames in two parallel branches of the SNP tree, under a possible candidate for Niall 9H, suggests we might well be barking up the right tree. Geoff. -----Original Message----- From: tuulen Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 2:15 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall haplotype 'dubious' - Professor Mark Thomas OK, so the Niall legacy might be no more than a myth. But the architecture of the M222 group is indeed fascinating, as apparently it migrated widely. Doug On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com>wrote: > I would take a step back and compare and contrast > > 1. The supposed identification of Richard III - to be fully revealed in a > paper by Turi King yet to appear > 2. The task of doing a similar id of a Niall find from the current work at > Faughan Hill in the LIARI project - see Spring 2014 issue of Archaelogy > Ireland and https://www.facebook.com/LateIronAgeAndRomanIreland?filter=1 > 3. The task of proving this claim without a body. > > I can only speak for myself and say the TCD paper now looks very weak. Its > clearly outdated technically and it would be fascinating to see what would > happen if a leading academic revisited it, perhaps in a couple of years > time when the new M222 branches are well fleshed out. > > Iain > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 06:20:01 -0700 > > From: john.plummer@snet.net > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall haplotype 'dubious' - Professor Mark Thomas > > > > Professor Thomas used a bad example. There are some very good > scientists and very good genealogists involved in the R-M222 Project and > there is good reason to believe in the Niall of the 9 Hostages origin. > Project heads are very aware of non-paternal events and have identified a > number of them. They expect a percentage of these and allow for them. > Although the study of David Wilson et al originally was based on > population distributions, the study has gone far beyond that. Many > surnames > in the study are derived in the traditional Irish pedigrees from Niall. > Not all, but that is to be expected because of the non-paternal effect > and > because not all name adoptions are documented. Moreover, the DNA of many > clan chiefs has been obtained. Brian Sykes has been quite successful in > this, for one. A few bogus or mistaken pedigrees have been uncovered, but > generally they appear accurate. > > > > Now, this is not to say that there are not some dubious identifications. > I have produced at least one incorrect one myself. I have used clusters > of close matches among Welsh and other surnames to identify common > ancestors. Say there is a cluster of 5 surnames examples of each of which > are found in Siddons classic reference as descendants of a particular > tribe. That tribe will likely descend from an ancestor of a thousand > years > ago, possibly much earlier. But on at least one occasion I have used too > few dna matches and too few tribal associations. Reviewing later with > more > information an entirely different result might appear. > > > > So, while Professor Thomas may, almost certainly is, correct in some > instances, a blanket generalization should not be accepted. Each > ancestral > identification should be considered separately. > > > > John Plummer > > > > > > On Monday, May 26, 2014 4:24 AM, Iain Kennedy < > ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > List, > > > > I recently contacted Professor Mark Thomas at the UCL Genetics > department who has been vocal in his criticism of 'bad DNA ancestry', > particularly some of the claims from BritainsDNA about Viking, Pictish DNA > etc. > > > > I pointed out that FTDNA are making similar claims about 'matching > Niall' and asked whether he might look into and comment on this too. As a > result he has now updated his page here: > > > > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking/companies > > > > and included the FTDNA marketing blurb under 'Dubious commercial > claims'. I recommend you read the comments; although unsigned there is a > small team who author the pages > > > > >From http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking > > > > "The primary authors are > > > > David Balding, Professor of Statistical Genetics, UCL > > Debbie Kennett, Honorary Research Fellow, UCL > > Mark Thomas, Professor of Evolutionary Genetics, UCL > > Adrian Timpson, Research Associate, UCL > > " > > > > I don't know whether Mark Thomas actually literally wrote the Niall > section but he and Professor Balding can be taken to have endorsed the > remarks. > > > > Note in particular the paper cited within the comments about Ghengis > Khan and Niall, > > > > "Inferring Genetic Ancestry: Opportunities, Challenges, and > > Implications" > > > > http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297%2810%2900155-2?cc=y?cc=y > > > > on p667 I quote > > > > "We emphasize, however, that whenever formal inferences about population > history have been attempted with uniparental > > systems, the statistical power is generally low. Claims of connections, > therefore, between specific > > uniparental lineages and historical figures or historical migrations of > peoples are merely speculative." > > > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am a descendant, though not in the male line, from the Irvines of Drum. Sir William de Irvine was secretary and Armour bearer to Robert the Bruce for which he was granted the Tower and Forest of Drum in 1323. Sir William was supposed to be 'a son of Bonshaw', a younger son that "The Bruce" took as a supporter in the troubles. However the DNA of Drum line appears not to match that of the Bonshaw line. This issue is discussed further here:- http://dnastudy.clanirwin.org/additional-analyses/interpreting-drum-s-dna-test-results *Dennis Wright* Donnchadh Mac an tSaoir Irish Type III R-L226 /"We are merely the present-day custodians of our Ancestors genes." / On 27/05/2014 6:40 AM, GAshley923@aol.com wrote: > _THE IRVINGS OF BONSHAW - Clan Irwin Association_ > (http://www.clanirwin.org/hbonshaw.php) > > (http://www.clanirwin.org/index.php) > > > * _Home_ (http://www.clanirwin.org/index.php) > * _Join_ (http://www.clanirwin.org/join.php) > * _Structure_ (http://www.clanirwin.org/board.php) > * _History_ (http://www.clanirwin.org/history.php) > * _The Caput_ (http://www.clanirwin.org/caput.php) > * _Merchandise_ (http://www.clanirwin.org/catalog.php) > * _DNA Study_ (http://www.clanirwin.org/dnastudy.php) > * _Events_ (http://www.clanirwin.org/events.php) > * _Tours_ (http://www.clanirwin.org/trips.php) > > > > > > THE IRVINGS OF BONSHAW > HISTORY. According to ancient family traditions (which are largely > supported by known historical fact; and which are first recorded in the very short > family history, “The Original of the Family of the Irvines or Erinvines”, > written in 1678 by Dr. Christopher Irvine, M.D., Historiographer Royal of > Scotland) the Irvings of Bonshaw are descended from DUNCAN, known in the > family as 'Duncan of Eskdale', a younger brother of Crinan, the husband of > Princess Beatrix and father of King Duncan I of Scotland. The paternal > grandfather of Duncan of Eskdale and Crinan was DUNCAN, hereditary Abthane of > Dule and lay abbot of Dunkeld. The latter Duncan is now believed to have been a > direct descendant of NIALL OF THE NINE HOSTAGES, who was high King of > Ireland early in the 5th century A.D and progenitor of the oldest recorded > families in Europe that are still extant in an unbroken male line. The Duncan, > as Abthane of Dule-an ancient title connected with St. Adamnan’s abbey of > Dull, and dating from nearly 200 years before the union of the Scottish and > Pictish crowns in 843 A.D.-was of more consequence than any one of the > seven Pictish ‘Mormaers’, being second only to the king himself in power and > importance. He appears to have been appointed Governor of Strathclyde when > that region was conquered by the Saxons and given to Malcolm I of Alban (the > early name of Scotland) in 946. His residence in Strathclyde is supposed > to have been the old fort of Eryvine, or Orewyn, where the town of Irvine > now stands, so we refer to him the ‘1st of Eryvine’. Both Duncan and his > neighbour Dubdon, Mormaer of Athole, were killed at the battle of Duncrub c. > 965 A.D., while leading their forces against a strong rebel army of their > fellow countrymen.* > DUNCAN, 1st of ERYVINE, was succeeded by his eldest son and heir, also > DUNCAN, about whom we know little except that he also seems to have succeeded > Dubdon as Mormaer of Athole, as he is called ‘Lord of Athole’. At the > battle of Luncarty (of uncertain date), where the Danes were routed, Duncan > commanded the left wing of the Scottish forces, under King Kenneth III. This > Duncan is the progenitor of the oldest recorded families in Great Britain; > the noble family of Dunbar is certainly descended from him, and traditionally > so are the noble families of Irving and Home, all in the male line; not to > mention the Royal Family and numerous other families by female descent. > DUNCAN, 2ND OF ERYVINE, was succeeded by his eldest son, CRINAN, who > married Princess Beatrix (or Bethoc) daughter and heiress of King Malcolm II of > Scotland, and by her was father of Duncan I, who reigned as King of Scotland > for six years. Crinan was the progenitor in the male line of all the kings > of Scotland down to Alexander III (died 1286), and in the female line of > all the sovereigns of Scotland down to the present day, with the sole > exception of Macbeth, who murdered his son, King Duncan, in 1040, and reigned for > the next seventeen years. Tradition tells us that Crinan maintained a > residence at Eryvine, but that he was the last of his family to do so, the > fortress being used solely for military purposes thereafter. He was killed by > Macbeth’s forces in 1045, while trying to avenge his son’s death and > grandson’s deposition. > *A standing stone on the battlefield just north of the village of Dunning, > in Perthshire, still marks Duncan’s tomb. > **This article was copied from “THE IRVINGS OF BONSHAW, Chiefs of the > Noble and Ancient Scots Border Family of Irving”, written by Alastair M.T. > Maxwell-Irving, B.Sc., F.S.A. Scot. (of the House of ‘Irving of Dumfries’), > printed in 1968, and partially reproduced here, only changing fonts and style > to fit our site. > THE NAME. About 1020, DUNCAN OF Eskdale’s eldest son married an heiress of > the ancient British royal line of Coel Hen and took up residence at her > ancestral home, the ancient hill-fort of Dumbretton (the name means ‘Fort of > the Britons’). Shortly afterwards, either she, or one of his descendants, > built a new castle in Kirtledale, two miles further east and on or near the > present site of Bonshaw; he took up residence there and gave it the name > Irwyn which had by then become firmly associated with the family-as Irewyn in > Ayrshire, Owyrn in Eskdale, and Heryn (the seat of Crinan's brother Grim, > Thane of Strathearn) in Strathearn. > BRUCE'S CAVE. The Irvings and Bruces became very close friends and allies. > Tradition relates that “The Bruce” was a guest at Bonshaw in 1298, and > when he fled from the court of Edward I of England, in 1306, his first night > back in Scotland was spent in the security of its fastness. - There is a > cave in the Kirtle cliffs at Cove, in which the Irvings ae reputed to have > hidden Bruce from the English on at least one occasion around this time. > BONSHAW TOWER. Bonshaw Tower and the modern house adjacent to it stand on > a piece of level ground, bounded on the east by a high cliff with the > Kirtle Water washing its base; on the south by the steep ravine down which the > Old Caul Burn runs to meet the Kirtle; on the west by rough ground and the > farmyard of Bonshaw Mains (one barn there is dated ‘1764’ and initialed ‘W.I’ > ) where ramparts and ditches once stood. To the west lie the lands of > Dumbretton, Robgill lies to the south, Woodhouse a little further downstream, > and Cove beyond. Wysebie is across the river, and further upstream lies > Braes and Old Kirkconnel. Of the numerous Irving towers that once guarded the > central Irving territory of Kirtledale, only Bonshaw; the ruins of > Woodhouse, Stapleton, and New Kirkconnel (at Ecclefechan); and part of Robgill, > incorporated in a modern mansion; now remain. > The present tower at Bonshaw is now known to have been built around > 1535-50, and probably between 1542 and 1548, the latter date being the known date > of erection of the Irvings’ lesser stone tower at Kirkpatrick, (a dated > armorial stone from the tower is preserved there.) further down the Kirtle. It > successfully withstood four sieges by the Maxwells in 1585-6, during at > least two of which cannon was used. > The Tower is a solid rectangular keep. A 58-step wheel stair climbs from > the ground level basement (prison floor) to the parapet walk above the third > floor. The first floor was the Great Hall with a great fireplace, 9ft wide > x 7ft high; second floor was the principal family room, serving as > withdrawing room and bedroom; third floor, former garret, now serves as the history > room, having a long, handwritten ancestral chart hanging on the wall. > Mounted just below the top of the north gable is the old clan bell, the only > one of its kind known to exist, which once summoned the clan in times of > danger. > This article was written by Betty Irvin, using some excerpts extracted > from 'The Irvings of Bonshaw' by Alastair M.T. Maxwell-Irving, B.Sc., F.S.A. > Scot > > > > > > > © 2000 - 2014 Clan Irwin Association All Rights Reserved > Designed, Hosted, & Maintained by _Picks Pix & Web_ > (http://pickspixandweb.com/) > (formerly PourHouse Productions) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Geoff, I agree with your argument, that we of the M222 group likely could be related to the Niall dynasty. For instance, I am M222 and have tested to 111 STR markers. And, on the FTDNA Markers Map page, if I turn the map resolution down to 25 markers I see that my more distant genetic relatives are not only in the north of Ireland but also are widely distributed throughout western Ireland, too, Connacht in particular, and western Ireland is said to be where the Niall dynasty originated. And so while we might never be able to confirm a direct linkage to the Niall clann, there seems to be a strong likelihood that such a relationship could be true. That is, I think that we of the M222 group have a more solid claim to such ancestry than any other group. Doug On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 12:34 AM, Margaret and Geoff Melloy < mg_melloy@hotmail.com> wrote: > Despite all this, I'm not going to abandon my royal status lightly! > > Whatever the theories may be, I think the occurrence of separate > concentrations of traditionally Cenel nEogain and Cenel Conaill surnames in > two parallel branches of the SNP tree, under a possible candidate for Niall > 9H, suggests we might well be barking up the right tree. > > > Geoff. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: tuulen > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 2:15 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall haplotype 'dubious' - Professor Mark Thomas > > OK, so the Niall legacy might be no more than a myth. But the architecture > of the M222 group is indeed fascinating, as apparently it migrated widely. > > Doug > > > On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Iain Kennedy > <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com>wrote: > > > I would take a step back and compare and contrast > > > > 1. The supposed identification of Richard III - to be fully revealed in a > > paper by Turi King yet to appear > > 2. The task of doing a similar id of a Niall find from the current work > at > > Faughan Hill in the LIARI project - see Spring 2014 issue of Archaelogy > > Ireland and https://www.facebook.com/LateIronAgeAndRomanIreland?filter=1 > > 3. The task of proving this claim without a body. > > > > I can only speak for myself and say the TCD paper now looks very weak. > Its > > clearly outdated technically and it would be fascinating to see what > would > > happen if a leading academic revisited it, perhaps in a couple of years > > time when the new M222 branches are well fleshed out. > > > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 06:20:01 -0700 > > > From: john.plummer@snet.net > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall haplotype 'dubious' - Professor Mark Thomas > > > > > > Professor Thomas used a bad example. There are some very good > > scientists and very good genealogists involved in the R-M222 Project and > > there is good reason to believe in the Niall of the 9 Hostages origin. > > Project heads are very aware of non-paternal events and have identified > a > > number of them. They expect a percentage of these and allow for them. > > Although the study of David Wilson et al originally was based on > > population distributions, the study has gone far beyond that. Many > > surnames > > in the study are derived in the traditional Irish pedigrees from Niall. > > Not all, but that is to be expected because of the non-paternal effect > > and > > because not all name adoptions are documented. Moreover, the DNA of many > > clan chiefs has been obtained. Brian Sykes has been quite successful in > > this, for one. A few bogus or mistaken pedigrees have been uncovered, > but > > generally they appear accurate. > > > > > > Now, this is not to say that there are not some dubious > identifications. > > I have produced at least one incorrect one myself. I have used clusters > > of close matches among Welsh and other surnames to identify common > > ancestors. Say there is a cluster of 5 surnames examples of each of > which > > are found in Siddons classic reference as descendants of a particular > > tribe. That tribe will likely descend from an ancestor of a thousand > > years > > ago, possibly much earlier. But on at least one occasion I have used too > > few dna matches and too few tribal associations. Reviewing later with > > more > > information an entirely different result might appear. > > > > > > So, while Professor Thomas may, almost certainly is, correct in some > > instances, a blanket generalization should not be accepted. Each > > ancestral > > identification should be considered separately. > > > > > > John Plummer > > > > > > > > > On Monday, May 26, 2014 4:24 AM, Iain Kennedy < > > ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > I recently contacted Professor Mark Thomas at the UCL Genetics > > department who has been vocal in his criticism of 'bad DNA ancestry', > > particularly some of the claims from BritainsDNA about Viking, Pictish > DNA > > etc. > > > > > > I pointed out that FTDNA are making similar claims about 'matching > > Niall' and asked whether he might look into and comment on this too. As a > > result he has now updated his page here: > > > > > > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking/companies > > > > > > and included the FTDNA marketing blurb under 'Dubious commercial > > claims'. I recommend you read the comments; although unsigned there is a > > small team who author the pages > > > > > > >From http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking > > > > > > "The primary authors are > > > > > > David Balding, Professor of Statistical Genetics, UCL > > > Debbie Kennett, Honorary Research Fellow, UCL > > > Mark Thomas, Professor of Evolutionary Genetics, UCL > > > Adrian Timpson, Research Associate, UCL > > > " > > > > > > I don't know whether Mark Thomas actually literally wrote the Niall > > section but he and Professor Balding can be taken to have endorsed the > > remarks. > > > > > > Note in particular the paper cited within the comments about Ghengis > > Khan and Niall, > > > > > > "Inferring Genetic Ancestry: Opportunities, Challenges, and > > > Implications" > > > > > > http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297%2810%2900155-2?cc=y?cc=y > > > > > > on p667 I quote > > > > > > "We emphasize, however, that whenever formal inferences about > population > > history have been attempted with uniparental > > > systems, the statistical power is generally low. Claims of connections, > > therefore, between specific > > > uniparental lineages and historical figures or historical migrations of > > peoples are merely speculative." > > > > > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The big question do have the correct benchmark for the R-M222 study ? There are some very good > scientists and very good genealogists involved in the R-M222 Project and> there is good reason to believe in the Niall of the 9 Hostages origin. Others say we can not prove it .Fact is no one can disproved it... Full Definition of BENCHMARK a : a point of reference from which measurements may be made b : something that serves as a standard by which others may be measured or judged c : a standardized problem or test that serves as a basis for evaluation or comparison (as of computer system performance) Gene Ashley

Joseph Chang, a statistician at Yale, published a paper in 1999 in which he claims to demonstrate that if we go back not-so-many generations, every person then living who has *any* descendants living now has *all of us* as descendants. My take on this is that the idea that there are significantly different "blood lines" is more or less hooey. You can read a news story about this paper at: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/05/07/charlemagnes-dna-and-our-universal-royalty/ and the paper itself at: http://www.stat.yale.edu/~jtc5/papers/CommonAncestors/AAP_99_CommonAncestors_paper.pdf David Ewing

The descent from Anthony Ashley Cooper. Doesn't the sheer number of royal lines in one family seem somewhat hard to believe? These families count amongst their ancestors powerful clan chieftains, extraordinary political leaders and monarchs and yet in Virginia all these powerful genes don't produce progeny any where near that caliber. The Washington's Randolph's, and other powerful Virginia families continued their "manor born" leadership from old country to new. Why not the Johnson's of Caskieben and the children of Lord Ashley-Cooper? Now don't get me wrong I'm not bad mouthing them (I am a descendant too!) but it seems that they should be on the same social level as the Washington's, Randolph's et al. and that doesn't seem the case. I am putting my neck out here but the only famous descendants I can think of is Mary Johnson the wife of Missouri's Civil War governor John McClurg....Mark Twain? and Lady Astor. However, they were well after the colonial period. Thank you all for allowing me to express my opinions, after all that's all they are! Gregory McReynolds 1. _William Skyvington_ (http://www.blogger.com/profile/10052367756561555096) _March 20, 2009 at 7:49 PM_ (http://skyvington.blogspot.com/2009/02/lord-and-his-lady.html?showComment=1237574940000#c4079797936084147890) 2. Your patriarchal Ashley brothers in America, William and John, would have been first cousins of Anthony Ashley-Cooper [1621-1683], the first Earl of Shaftesbury. Their father, William Ashley, was an older brother of Anthony's mother, Anne Ashley [1602-1628]. John Ashley married his cousin, Jane Cooper, the earl's sister. Your anecdote concerning the two brothers, both in love with their cousin, is amusing. According to what you say, Lady Jane was the jackpot, whereas the consolation prize for the loser was a trip to America. Or was it the other way round? 3. _Reply_ (javascript:;) _Delete_ (http://www.blogger.com/delete-comment.g?blogID=8627322010786735293&postID=4079797936084147890) 4. 5. 6. Anonymous_May 10, 2009 at 2:52 AM_ (http://skyvington.blogspot.com/2009/02/lord-and-his-lady.html?showComment=1241916720000#c1206310560062667437) The Ashley Family Pedigree, attained the Peerage of England. History uncovered by paper trail and DNA The genetic continuity of this Family continues on to this day. Migrating from England, John Ashley married his cousin lady Jane Cooper moved to the colonies settled on the Eastern Seaboard of Virginia . Some of these Ashley descendents are currently living In Gainesville fl, Eugene B Ashley and family.NationMaster - Encyclopedia: Anthony Ashley Cooper Ashley Cooper Queen Elizabeth II is descended from this family. Anthony Ashley Cooper Lord (Earl) Shaftsbury, Anthony Ashley Cooper 1621-1683 was son of daughter of Anthony Ashley (secretary of War for Queen Elizbeth I) (and so the double name but he IS a Cooper) and John Cooper. Brit Chancellor of the Exchequer and later Lord Chancellor. Famous for running the Brit government during the 1670's and beginning of the 1680's , he passed the first habeas corpus act - beginning due process and ending the practice of jailing someone without a hearing; and he also passed an act to make the judiciary independent, beginning that important practice. He was also Lord Proprietor (with 7 others) of the Carolina's - today's US North and South Carolina but extending on the west to the Pacific Ocean. And on the committees running the Virginia and Massachusetts colonies. Esp famous too for accumulating wealth, he had at one time 40 men in livery to attend on guests at his parties. Falling out with others in mid 1680's , he spent some time in the Tower of London , with false charges, and on release left to live until his death a short time later (1683) in Amsterdam, Holland.... His family continues prominent in UK today, with each succeeding Earl of Shaftsbury with the same name of Anthony Ashley Cooper. The one in this position in the 1800's was esp successful in passing child labor laws stopping sweat shops using children. The family today remains esp involved in philanthropy. These families count amongst their ancestors powerful clan chieftains, extraordinary political leaders and monarchs and yet in Virginia all these powerful genes don't produce progeny any where near that caliber most likely candidates supported by DNA are.more like the Scot Modal than the Irish Modal .The powerful clan chieftains are most likely the following E B Ashley _http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#inx) Duncan/Dunbar Name origin: A powerful chieftain; from the Gaelic Dun, a fortress, and ceann, head or chief. Duncean or Duncan, strong-headed. * _Duncan, Lay Abbot of Dunkeld_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#du4) (920-965) * _Duncan, Lord of Mormaer_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#du3) (954-1010) * _Dunkeld, Crinan Mormaer Abbot_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#du2) (980-1045) * _Duncan I, King_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#du1) (1005-1040) * _Maldred FitzCrinan, 1st Earl of Dunbar_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#ma2) (1009-1045) * _Malcolm III_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#mal) (1031-1093) * _Donald "Bane" IIII, King of Scotland_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#don) (1033-1097) * _Gospatric, Earl of Northumbria, Moermarer of Dunbar_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#go2) (1040-1074) * _Waltheof, Earl of Dunbar_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#wal) (1062-1138) * _Gospatric, 3rd Earl of Dunbar_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#gos) (1073-1138) Duncan, Lay Abbot of Dunkeld b.920 Dunkeld, Perthshire, Scotland; parents ukn d.abt.965 Battle of Duncrub, Perthshire, Scotland CHILDREN included: 1. _Duncan, Lord of Mormaer_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#du3) b.abt.949/954 Return to _Duncan_ (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/9004/Duncan.html#inx) Index

Hi. Five more of my SNPs from Full Genomes are available to order on YSEQ. They are - FGC7929 (YFull: YFS048153) YFS048158 YFS048151 YFS048157 YFS048159 - Aidan.