Susan,    Am I confirmed as S603 as well? Mike McNally 198682 Subtype S603 On Sunday, June 8, 2014 12:34 PM, Susan Hedeen <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: The BIGY Ewing that was stuck at S588 is confirmed through *YSEQ to be S603* f215509    Ewing,S (prob S603)    BIGY    S588 242    FGC2815    ChrY    13979544    13979544    T- 242    FGC3204    ChrY    13979797    13979797    T- 242    FGC7928    ChrY    13979841    13979841    A+ 242    S603            ChrY    13979841    13979841    A+ 242    Y1524        ChrY    13979995    13979995    T+ ------------------------------------- Also McKown is S603 from Chromo 2. McKown wrote: Hello Susan, *S588+, S603+* From the positive variants; awaiting the down load for the Raw Data; and I need to look up Mr. McKown's FTDNA # Susan Hedeen ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, Michael, I am not really calculating SNPs. I have been watching the progress of the experimentation going on, but the SNPs beyond counting them and running them through a couple of routines have not been settled out yet. As for calculating haplotypes, yes I've some formulas. It is a bit more complicated than just using it, but I'll send you a spread sheet with the formula on it as an attachment privately that will give you a basic idea. I'd suggest studying it before deciding that you will make attempt. Won't be able to do that until later tonight or tomorrow. Susan On 6/7/2014 1:18 PM, Michael McNally wrote: > Susan, > Do you have a formula for determining approximate SNP ages? > > > Thank you. > Mike McNally > f198682 > > > On Saturday, June 7, 2014 1:18 AM, Susan Hedeen > <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > I've been up-dating the spread sheet -- not finished yet with the last > go around, but received a question about the FGC 8739 group of the DF97's > > fN7406 DonaldsonFGC8739 > f53095 Dowell FGC8739 > f205297 McConnaughhayFGC8739 > fB4398 McKee FGC8739 > 67Marks Infinite Allele: 1200±280 ybd or 750 CE at the mid-line with > 76% confidence; > 100% confidence w/i the window of 470--1030 CE with diminishing > probability away > from the mid-line on either side...(12% beginning at the top of the curve) > > I received word that at least 1 of the Doherty et.al. group is testing > FGC8739 > This result will be informative. > > For the DF97's, Harris was added. The TMRCA for DF97 is holding to > previous estimates. > > I need to know the vendor for the Harris DF97 confirmation. > > Susan Hedeen > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > <mailto:DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Susan,    Do you have a formula for determining approximate SNP ages? Thank you. Mike McNally f198682 On Saturday, June 7, 2014 1:18 AM, Susan Hedeen <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: I've been up-dating the spread sheet -- not finished yet with the last go around, but received a question about the FGC 8739 group of the DF97's fN7406      DonaldsonFGC8739 f53095      Dowell FGC8739 f205297    McConnaughhayFGC8739 fB4398      McKee FGC8739 67Marks    Infinite Allele: 1200±280 ybd or 750 CE at the mid-line with 76% confidence; 100% confidence w/i the window of 470--1030 CE with diminishing probability away from the mid-line on either side...(12% beginning at the top of the curve) I received word that at least 1 of the Doherty et.al. group is testing FGC8739 This result will be informative. For the DF97's, Harris was added.  The TMRCA for DF97 is holding to previous estimates. I need to know the vendor for the Harris DF97 confirmation. Susan Hedeen ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I've been up-dating the spread sheet -- not finished yet with the last go around, but received a question about the FGC 8739 group of the DF97's fN7406 DonaldsonFGC8739 f53095 Dowell FGC8739 f205297 McConnaughhayFGC8739 fB4398 McKee FGC8739 67Marks Infinite Allele: 1200±280 ybd or 750 CE at the mid-line with 76% confidence; 100% confidence w/i the window of 470--1030 CE with diminishing probability away from the mid-line on either side...(12% beginning at the top of the curve) I received word that at least 1 of the Doherty et.al. group is testing FGC8739 This result will be informative. For the DF97's, Harris was added. The TMRCA for DF97 is holding to previous estimates. I need to know the vendor for the Harris DF97 confirmation. Susan Hedeen

Just to make the last paragraph clearer, if you want to do two SNPs from the YSEQ sale the choice is even between (a) S660 & S588 together and (b) S660 & DF85 together Don't start by assuming you are S660+. Iain > From: ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 06:07:19 +0000 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Newbie to list (not Genetic genealogy) > > It's difficult to say what kind of deal something like a new deep clade test would represent but if you order whilst the yseq sale is still on it represents a bargain that is going to be hard to beat IMHO. > > S660 is a sort of centre of gravity beneath M222 and its probably best to start with that one if that's the sort of budget you are working with. For those who can spare a bit more I've recommended S660/S588/DF85/FGC4077 at the sale price which should place you in the tree fairly precisely although not 100%. > > If you wanted to do two, the sizes of the two biggest sub-branches under S660 are fairly similar based on the ScotlandsDNA anonymised data so not much in it between S588 and DF85 (aka S675). > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222_tree.png > > > Iain > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 10:09:51 -0700 > > From: a4est42@gmail.com > > To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [R-M222] Newbie to list (not Genetic genealogy) > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I have recently got back my cousins kit PADEN 341945 and all his matches > > are M222 so I suspect highly that he is as well and he is listed as Niall. > > We initially only tested to 37 markers and I am doubtful of getting very > > far as he matches two PEDEN and PADDON kits have only tested to 12 and 25 > > respectively. I have joined the FTDNA M222 project and am looking for > > advice on possible SNPS to test. The closest matches have not done much SNP > > testing only confirmed M222. The 12/12 Peden match is from Coleraine, > > Londonderry. The other PADDON looks to be from Ayrshire. Closest other > > surnames are MCHARG 34/37 (6) and MAXWELL 36/37 (10) also a couple of > > KEITH, MCKEE, and 2 LOWERY---but again no downstream testing. Do I > > cautiously test a SNP or two via YSEQ.com, wait for a new DEEP Clade or > > similar panel down the road. Not flush with cash for this endeavor as just > > finished sponsoring a Full Y on my hubby (R-L2). > > > > Looking for any advice, ideas, suggestions. > > Thanks in advance > > Kelly > > > > -- > > Kelly Wheaton > > a4est42@gmail.com > > > > <http://tinyurl.com/geneticgenealogyguide> > > The Beginner's Guide to Genetic Genealogy > > <http://tinyurl.com/geneticgenealogyguide> > > Wheaton Surname Resources > > <https://sites.google.com/site/wheatonsurname/home> > > Rehoboth, MA DNA Project <http://www.familytreedna.com/public/REHOBOTH/> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It's difficult to say what kind of deal something like a new deep clade test would represent but if you order whilst the yseq sale is still on it represents a bargain that is going to be hard to beat IMHO. S660 is a sort of centre of gravity beneath M222 and its probably best to start with that one if that's the sort of budget you are working with. For those who can spare a bit more I've recommended S660/S588/DF85/FGC4077 at the sale price which should place you in the tree fairly precisely although not 100%. If you wanted to do two, the sizes of the two biggest sub-branches under S660 are fairly similar based on the ScotlandsDNA anonymised data so not much in it between S588 and DF85 (aka S675). http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf http://www.kennedydna.com/M222_tree.png Iain > Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2014 10:09:51 -0700 > From: a4est42@gmail.com > To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Newbie to list (not Genetic genealogy) > > Hi everyone, > > I have recently got back my cousins kit PADEN 341945 and all his matches > are M222 so I suspect highly that he is as well and he is listed as Niall. > We initially only tested to 37 markers and I am doubtful of getting very > far as he matches two PEDEN and PADDON kits have only tested to 12 and 25 > respectively. I have joined the FTDNA M222 project and am looking for > advice on possible SNPS to test. The closest matches have not done much SNP > testing only confirmed M222. The 12/12 Peden match is from Coleraine, > Londonderry. The other PADDON looks to be from Ayrshire. Closest other > surnames are MCHARG 34/37 (6) and MAXWELL 36/37 (10) also a couple of > KEITH, MCKEE, and 2 LOWERY---but again no downstream testing. Do I > cautiously test a SNP or two via YSEQ.com, wait for a new DEEP Clade or > similar panel down the road. Not flush with cash for this endeavor as just > finished sponsoring a Full Y on my hubby (R-L2). > > Looking for any advice, ideas, suggestions. > Thanks in advance > Kelly > > -- > Kelly Wheaton > a4est42@gmail.com > > <http://tinyurl.com/geneticgenealogyguide> > The Beginner's Guide to Genetic Genealogy > <http://tinyurl.com/geneticgenealogyguide> > Wheaton Surname Resources > <https://sites.google.com/site/wheatonsurname/home> > Rehoboth, MA DNA Project <http://www.familytreedna.com/public/REHOBOTH/> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Padden is a Mayo name. There are still Paddens in Belmullet that I know of. It is considered a diminutive of Barrett in Gaelic. I have Paddens in my Mayo lines. There are Paddens listed in the book "Where the Sun Sets" by Fr. Sean Noone. See http://www.mayo-ireland.ie/en/about-mayo/arts-culture/literature/books/sean-noone-where-the-sun-sets.html I would ignore anything except 37/37 matches or higher unless the surnames are similar. There are lots of "coincidental" matches with other surnames for those that are R-M222. The McFadden Surname Project includes the Padden and Paden surnames. Hope this helps. Marianne Manley Granoff Albuquerque, NM At 10:09 AM 6/5/2014 -0700, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I have recently got back my cousins kit PADEN 341945 and all his matches >are M222 so I suspect highly that he is as well and he is listed as Niall. >We initially only tested to 37 markers and I am doubtful of getting very >far as he matches two PEDEN and PADDON kits have only tested to 12 and 25 >respectively. I have joined the FTDNA M222 project and am looking for >advice on possible SNPS to test. The closest matches have not done much SNP >testing only confirmed M222. The 12/12 Peden match is from Coleraine, >Londonderry. The other PADDON looks to be from Ayrshire. Closest other >surnames are MCHARG 34/37 (6) and MAXWELL 36/37 (10) also a couple of >KEITH, MCKEE, and 2 LOWERY---but again no downstream testing. Do I >cautiously test a SNP or two via YSEQ.com, wait for a new DEEP Clade or >similar panel down the road. Not flush with cash for this endeavor as just >finished sponsoring a Full Y on my hubby (R-L2). > >Looking for any advice, ideas, suggestions. >Thanks in advance >Kelly > >-- >Kelly Wheaton >a4est42@gmail.com > > <http://tinyurl.com/geneticgenealogyguide> >The Beginner's Guide to Genetic Genealogy ><http://tinyurl.com/geneticgenealogyguide> >Wheaton Surname Resources ><https://sites.google.com/site/wheatonsurname/home> >Rehoboth, MA DNA Project <http://www.familytreedna.com/public/REHOBOTH/> > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2014.0.4592 / Virus Database: 3955/7625 - Release Date: 06/05/14

Hi Kelly, Welcome to the M222 group! If you believe that your family is in the M222 group then you are in luck. Here on this board there are citizen-scientists who have dedicated years of their lives toward organizing and refining the overall M222 genetic picture. M222 is not easy to define, as we are of the Hebrides, of Ireland and of Scotland. But the payment for having such voluntary citizen-scientists is for your family to undergo as much genetic testing as you could afford. The more, the better! Best regards, Doug FTDNA 196477 On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 4:07 PM, Susan Hedeen <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net > wrote: > Kelly, > Well, I checked out the 37 marker haplotype. By enlarge there is only > one allele that stands out as being a bit unusual in its repeat, and > that is DYS456 where your cousin has 15 repeats. If it hadn't been 15, > I wouldn't have paid much attention to it, but a 15 at that allele in > M222 is a bit unusual. Could be coincidental. Whether or not it means > anything, there are several that have that value that are eithr SNP > tested to only M222-- more that are predicted by haplotype. Those who > have tested for down stream SNPs, 2 are negative for DF97; 1 is positive > for S588, and 1 is positive for PF1169. S588 is available at YSEQ; > PF1169 may not be SNP tested, but its upstream S566 can be SNP tested > also at YSEQ. Hope this helps. SUsan > > On 6/5/2014 1:28 PM, Susan Hedeen wrote: > > Hi, Kelly, welcome to M222. > > First, check out the SNP tree kept by Iain Kennedy > > > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > > > Within R-M222 the 37 markers may or may not be informative as for > > suggestions on SNPs > > > > That said, I'll take a look at the haplotype and compare it to the > > data set I keep for the SNP results. > > > > A safe choice for SNPs to start would be S660 also known as DF109 > > (S659 is DF105 as seen on the tree); this particular down stream SNP > > is a pivotal marker as you will see from the tree. If you want to SNP > > test more than 1, I'd go in the direction of DF85, DF97, S588 and > > FGC4077 or FGC4078 -- presently they look equivalent other. There is > > also the option of ScotlandsDNA Chromo2 Raw Data that for R-M222 tests > > most of these SNPs with the exception of DF97 and the FGC and A SNPs > > listed on the tree. The cost of that is about $200.00 American; you > > know the current cost of the YSEQ SNPs per SNP. > > > > I hope this helps. Susan Hedeen > > > > > > > > On 6/5/2014 1:09 PM, Kelly Wheaton wrote: > >> Hi everyone, > >> > >> I have recently got back my cousins kit PADEN 341945 and all his matches > >> are M222 so I suspect highly that he is as well and he is listed as > >> Niall. > >> We initially only tested to 37 markers and I am doubtful of getting very > >> far as he matches two PEDEN and PADDON kits have only tested to 12 > >> and 25 > >> respectively. I have joined the FTDNA M222 project and am looking for > >> advice on possible SNPS to test. The closest matches have not done > >> much SNP > >> testing only confirmed M222. The 12/12 Peden match is from Coleraine, > >> Londonderry. The other PADDON looks to be from Ayrshire. Closest other > >> surnames are MCHARG 34/37 (6) and MAXWELL 36/37 (10) also a couple of > >> KEITH, MCKEE, and 2 LOWERY---but again no downstream testing. Do I > >> cautiously test a SNP or two via YSEQ.com, wait for a new DEEP Clade or > >> similar panel down the road. Not flush with cash for this endeavor as > >> just > >> finished sponsoring a Full Y on my hubby (R-L2). > >> > >> Looking for any advice, ideas, suggestions. > >> Thanks in advance > >> Kelly > >> > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Kelly, Well, I checked out the 37 marker haplotype. By enlarge there is only one allele that stands out as being a bit unusual in its repeat, and that is DYS456 where your cousin has 15 repeats. If it hadn't been 15, I wouldn't have paid much attention to it, but a 15 at that allele in M222 is a bit unusual. Could be coincidental. Whether or not it means anything, there are several that have that value that are eithr SNP tested to only M222-- more that are predicted by haplotype. Those who have tested for down stream SNPs, 2 are negative for DF97; 1 is positive for S588, and 1 is positive for PF1169. S588 is available at YSEQ; PF1169 may not be SNP tested, but its upstream S566 can be SNP tested also at YSEQ. Hope this helps. SUsan On 6/5/2014 1:28 PM, Susan Hedeen wrote: > Hi, Kelly, welcome to M222. > First, check out the SNP tree kept by Iain Kennedy > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > Within R-M222 the 37 markers may or may not be informative as for > suggestions on SNPs > > That said, I'll take a look at the haplotype and compare it to the > data set I keep for the SNP results. > > A safe choice for SNPs to start would be S660 also known as DF109 > (S659 is DF105 as seen on the tree); this particular down stream SNP > is a pivotal marker as you will see from the tree. If you want to SNP > test more than 1, I'd go in the direction of DF85, DF97, S588 and > FGC4077 or FGC4078 -- presently they look equivalent other. There is > also the option of ScotlandsDNA Chromo2 Raw Data that for R-M222 tests > most of these SNPs with the exception of DF97 and the FGC and A SNPs > listed on the tree. The cost of that is about $200.00 American; you > know the current cost of the YSEQ SNPs per SNP. > > I hope this helps. Susan Hedeen > > > > On 6/5/2014 1:09 PM, Kelly Wheaton wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> >> I have recently got back my cousins kit PADEN 341945 and all his matches >> are M222 so I suspect highly that he is as well and he is listed as >> Niall. >> We initially only tested to 37 markers and I am doubtful of getting very >> far as he matches two PEDEN and PADDON kits have only tested to 12 >> and 25 >> respectively. I have joined the FTDNA M222 project and am looking for >> advice on possible SNPS to test. The closest matches have not done >> much SNP >> testing only confirmed M222. The 12/12 Peden match is from Coleraine, >> Londonderry. The other PADDON looks to be from Ayrshire. Closest other >> surnames are MCHARG 34/37 (6) and MAXWELL 36/37 (10) also a couple of >> KEITH, MCKEE, and 2 LOWERY---but again no downstream testing. Do I >> cautiously test a SNP or two via YSEQ.com, wait for a new DEEP Clade or >> similar panel down the road. Not flush with cash for this endeavor as >> just >> finished sponsoring a Full Y on my hubby (R-L2). >> >> Looking for any advice, ideas, suggestions. >> Thanks in advance >> Kelly >> >

Hi, Kelly, welcome to M222. First, check out the SNP tree kept by Iain Kennedy http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf Within R-M222 the 37 markers may or may not be informative as for suggestions on SNPs That said, I'll take a look at the haplotype and compare it to the data set I keep for the SNP results. A safe choice for SNPs to start would be S660 also known as DF109 (S659 is DF105 as seen on the tree); this particular down stream SNP is a pivotal marker as you will see from the tree. If you want to SNP test more than 1, I'd go in the direction of DF85, DF97, S588 and FGC4077 or FGC4078 -- presently they look equivalent other. There is also the option of ScotlandsDNA Chromo2 Raw Data that for R-M222 tests most of these SNPs with the exception of DF97 and the FGC and A SNPs listed on the tree. The cost of that is about $200.00 American; you know the current cost of the YSEQ SNPs per SNP. I hope this helps. Susan Hedeen On 6/5/2014 1:09 PM, Kelly Wheaton wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I have recently got back my cousins kit PADEN 341945 and all his matches > are M222 so I suspect highly that he is as well and he is listed as Niall. > We initially only tested to 37 markers and I am doubtful of getting very > far as he matches two PEDEN and PADDON kits have only tested to 12 and 25 > respectively. I have joined the FTDNA M222 project and am looking for > advice on possible SNPS to test. The closest matches have not done much SNP > testing only confirmed M222. The 12/12 Peden match is from Coleraine, > Londonderry. The other PADDON looks to be from Ayrshire. Closest other > surnames are MCHARG 34/37 (6) and MAXWELL 36/37 (10) also a couple of > KEITH, MCKEE, and 2 LOWERY---but again no downstream testing. Do I > cautiously test a SNP or two via YSEQ.com, wait for a new DEEP Clade or > similar panel down the road. Not flush with cash for this endeavor as just > finished sponsoring a Full Y on my hubby (R-L2). > > Looking for any advice, ideas, suggestions. > Thanks in advance > Kelly >

Hi everyone, I have recently got back my cousins kit PADEN 341945 and all his matches are M222 so I suspect highly that he is as well and he is listed as Niall. We initially only tested to 37 markers and I am doubtful of getting very far as he matches two PEDEN and PADDON kits have only tested to 12 and 25 respectively. I have joined the FTDNA M222 project and am looking for advice on possible SNPS to test. The closest matches have not done much SNP testing only confirmed M222. The 12/12 Peden match is from Coleraine, Londonderry. The other PADDON looks to be from Ayrshire. Closest other surnames are MCHARG 34/37 (6) and MAXWELL 36/37 (10) also a couple of KEITH, MCKEE, and 2 LOWERY---but again no downstream testing. Do I cautiously test a SNP or two via YSEQ.com, wait for a new DEEP Clade or similar panel down the road. Not flush with cash for this endeavor as just finished sponsoring a Full Y on my hubby (R-L2). Looking for any advice, ideas, suggestions. Thanks in advance Kelly -- Kelly Wheaton a4est42@gmail.com <http://tinyurl.com/geneticgenealogyguide> The Beginner's Guide to Genetic Genealogy <http://tinyurl.com/geneticgenealogyguide> Wheaton Surname Resources <https://sites.google.com/site/wheatonsurname/home> Rehoboth, MA DNA Project <http://www.familytreedna.com/public/REHOBOTH/>

Yes okay, I'll leave the order as it is. They'll still have my kit for future use. Geoff -----Original Message----- From: Iain Kennedy Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 10:42 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Melloy DF97- It would be good if you carry on with the FGC8739 test as it will help confirm its position. There are 'private' SNPs from the S668 BigY tester but they are unsorted and would need a bulk test against the lot. Let me know if you want to explore this option. Iain > From: mg_melloy@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 21:28:24 +1000 > Subject: [R-M222] Melloy DF97- > > My DF97 result just came in from FTDNA and it's Negative, so I guess I'm > firmly entrenched there in S668 with McCollum and Allison. > I'd love to know where Docherty, Gallacher, O'Donnell and Boyle belong. > > In view of this, I suppose my order for FGC8739 from YSEQ won't prove a > thing. As I haven't received the kit yet, maybe I could change my order. > Are > there any little-known SNPS potentially hanging off S668 which I could try > for? Otherwise I wonder if they'd let me hang onto the kit until something > of interest becomes available. > > Geoff Melloy > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My DF97 result just came in from FTDNA and it's Negative, so I guess I'm firmly entrenched there in S668 with McCollum and Allison. I'd love to know where Docherty, Gallacher, O'Donnell and Boyle belong. In view of this, I suppose my order for FGC8739 from YSEQ won't prove a thing. As I haven't received the kit yet, maybe I could change my order. Are there any little-known SNPS potentially hanging off S668 which I could try for? Otherwise I wonder if they'd let me hang onto the kit until something of interest becomes available. Geoff Melloy

It would be good if you carry on with the FGC8739 test as it will help confirm its position. There are 'private' SNPs from the S668 BigY tester but they are unsorted and would need a bulk test against the lot. Let me know if you want to explore this option. Iain > From: mg_melloy@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2014 21:28:24 +1000 > Subject: [R-M222] Melloy DF97- > > My DF97 result just came in from FTDNA and it's Negative, so I guess I'm > firmly entrenched there in S668 with McCollum and Allison. > I'd love to know where Docherty, Gallacher, O'Donnell and Boyle belong. > > In view of this, I suppose my order for FGC8739 from YSEQ won't prove a > thing. As I haven't received the kit yet, maybe I could change my order. Are > there any little-known SNPS potentially hanging off S668 which I could try > for? Otherwise I wonder if they'd let me hang onto the kit until something > of interest becomes available. > > Geoff Melloy > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The FTDNA Dogherty Surname Group is saddened by the recent passing of Cameron Dougherty FTDNA Kit 28586 on May 28, 2014. Cameron was one of the original members of the Doherty Surname Group back in 2004. Cameron, along with his father Pat (Paddy Inch), was also a driving force behind the O'Dochartaigh Clann Association which has documented much of the oral and written history of our Clann, assisted with genealogical research, issued a fantastic quarterly newsletter, and promoted world-wide O'Dochartaigh reunions every five years in Donegal (Inishowen Peninsula and surrounding area) since 1985. It is interesting to note that Cameron's Y-DNA haplotype was I-L161, while the majority of the Doherty surname group is M-222, or at least M-269. His Y-dna genes obviously reflected a Scandinavian component of our Clann makeup. We had a few discussions about this, and how this is not an uncommon fact with many Irish Surname Groups. We have embraced this haplotype diversity within our Clann because it too defines who we are. We will miss Cameron and I am sure there will be many toasts in his honor now and when we all gather at the 2015 O'Dochartaigh Reunion in Ireland. Bob Doherty Doherty Surname Group co-adminstrator

According to the Gwinn/Guinn surname project news page the PF3292+ Gwinn has 4th and 6th once removed cousins who have tested pf3292-. I have tested F3952 positive with FTDNA so no surprises there, hopefully it might encourage other members of the McBride surname project to test for it. No news about what's happening about cts12173 yet , customer services contacted me and said that they were passing on the info I sent them to their supervisor. Rob Sent from my iPhone

Alan, It's worth considering that the bulk of territory held by Clann Chólmain became "sword land" after 1170. Been conqueored by the de Lace's and incorporated into the "Lordship of Meath" (possibly the most important Norman lordship in Ireland before the rise of "Kildare" -- Geraldines) They were obviously displaced from bulk of their territory and reduced to one barony in what is now westmeath. Even now there's some debate on wether their main lineage still exists as a valid surname (most people think it was gradually anglicised to either O'Loughlin or McLoughlin. They basically lost everything in the 17th century. Often during what we could term the "Gaelic Reconquista" of the late 14th century to late 15th century (early 16th century), we often see land coming under the rule of not the original pre-invasion dynasts but under new groupings, who were often marginal before hand. We have to consider fact that outside of "East Ulster" (East of the Bann) that the rest of what we call Ulster today (Back in day only east of Bann was still classed as "Ulster") remained under Irish rule until the end of 9year war in 1603. I do wonder if it was just a case that they had sample basis due to their method of collecting samples (phone books, using a list of surnames) from the 1901 surname I see that there are at lest 250 people in Westmeath who bore surnames of order O'Loughlin, Loughlin, Laughlin, McLaughlin etc. We do have some southern Uí Néill names that appear to be M222. Namely Molloy (Cénel Fiachra -- Fir Cell) and McGeoghan (Cénel Fiachra). There's also the fact of the high number of Connachta surnames namely Uí Bhriúin (O'Connor, McManus, O'Rourke, Concannon) and Uí Fhiachrae (O'Shaughnessy, O'Dowd) who show up M222+. I'll have to dig out Lacey's book but from what I recall of it his argument that the "Northern Uí Néill" were actually Cruithin (Dal nAraide) was based on the presense of one personal name in both lineages. He used this as his starting point and went from there. Regarding the Ó Néill (Ua Néill -- O'Neill surname) there's been debate for last hundred years or so about their lineage potentially been dubious, given there displacement from the "throne of the north" (In Tuaisceart -- Aileach) for over 120+ years by the Ó Lochlainn/Mac Lochlainn. It it's true it's kinda ironic because alot people would argue that "Aodh Mór Ó Néill" (Hugh O'Neill -- 2nd Earl of Tyrone) himself was part of an NPE into this line (his father Feardorcha aka Matthew Baron of Dungannon -- the supposed son of Kelly the Blacksmith of Dundalk). Feardorcha mother claimed on her deathbed that he was the son of Conn Ó Néill (1st Earl of Tyrone) -- quite a common occurence in Gaelic Ireland -- Conn was known to say "that he never forsoke a son claimed to be his" (an extra swordsman is always a bonus). The problem of course is that the English then put Feardorcha as Conn successor (after "Surrender and Regrant"), this set Séan (Shane the proud) the oldest surviving son (by marriage) on the warpath. >From what I can see the "O'Neill variant" haplotype that John McLaughlin wrote about is DF27+ (Z196-). It's rather interesting of course that after the destruction of the power of the Mac Lochlainn that the powerbase shifted to what is now "East Tyrone", the Cénel nEoghain having been based in Inishowen (now part of Donegal) for the previous 700years. -Paul (DF41+) On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 10:47 AM, <alanmill10@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul, thank you for sharing this article from "Princes, prelates and poets > in medieval Ireland" (2013). Catherine Swift's article has neatly > summarized some of the key issues that have been discussed on and off on > this forum in the past. > > Her point about the Clann Cholmain and Cenel Eogain is well justified, as > the power base of the of Clann Cholmain was located in the eastern midlands > of Ireland and by the ninth century, the power base of the Cenel Eogain had > shifted into eastern Tyrone. In these areas, one would reasonably expect > to find a higher preponderance of the IMH/M222, which the Trinity College > Dublin team either didn't capture or uncover in their study. > > Catherine's article also ties in with another article written by her in > 1994, which Brian Lacey cites in relation to 'Tirechan's Collectanea'. For > those who have not ready her article, a copy can be downloaded from the > following site. > > > http://dspace.mic.ul.ie/bitstream/10395/1744/2/Swift,%20C.(1994),%20'T%C3%ADrech%C3%A1n's%20Motives%20in%20Compiling%20the%20%22Collectanea%22%3A%20An%20Alternative%20Interpretation'(Journal%20Article).pdf > > She highlights in her article the great churches founded by St. Patrick in > Ireland and what she believed are Tirechan's motives for writing his book, > and suggests Tirechan was seeking to elevate the Ui Neill and in > particular, the family of Conall son of Niall. This was Conall Cremthainne > to distinguish him from Conall Gulban, founder of the Cenel Conaill. An > English translation of Tirechan's Collectanea can be found in the following > link: > > http://www.confessio.ie/more/tirechan_english# > > It is interesting that in Catherine's article 'Tirechan's Motives in > Compiling the Collectanea', she accepts the genealogical claim that Conall > Gulban was the son of Niall. However, her position significantly changes > in 'Interlaced Scholarship: genealogies and genetics in > twenty-first-century Ireland', where she now refers to Conall Gulban as > being the 'putative' son of Niall. > > In her 1994 article, she makes another interesting observation in relation > to the way Tirechan applies royal status through the use of the word > 'rex'=king and notes, he limits the use of this Latin word to the Ui Neill > kings. However, where he names Loegaire, Cairpre, Conall and Fiachu from > the southern Ui Neill the sons of Niall, no such patrimony is given to > Conall of Co. Donegal. > > Coupled with Adomnan's life of St. Columba, Tirechan's Collectanea adds > further weight to that statement made about Columba's relationship with the > Ui Neill, that they were "my friends by kinship" (Andersons) and if the Ui > Neill are identified with the southern Ui Neill, this would point to a > different type of relationship with the Cenel Conaill. Since the Irish M222 > is largely attached to NW Ireland, it would also beg the question, which > Brian Lacey asked (p. 155), if the Cenel Conaill and Cenel Eogain did not > really belong to the Ui Neill, then who were they? > > Have either you or anyone else familiar with Brian Lacey's book 'Cenel > Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms' considered his alternative genealogy for > the Cenel Conaill? > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ <pduffy81@gmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Mon, 26 May 2014 17:33 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall haplotype 'dubious' - Professor Mark Thomas > > > Worth a read: > > > http://www.academia.edu/3363365/Interlaced_scholarship_genealogies_and_genetics_in_twenty-first-century_Ireland > > -Paul > (DF41+) > > > On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com > >wrote: > > > I would take a step back and compare and contrast > > > > 1. The supposed identification of Richard III - to be fully revealed in a > > paper by Turi King yet to appear > > 2. The task of doing a similar id of a Niall find from the current work > at > > Faughan Hill in the LIARI project - see Spring 2014 issue of Archaelogy > > Ireland and https://www.facebook.com/LateIronAgeAndRomanIreland?filter=1 > > 3. The task of proving this claim without a body. > > > > I can only speak for myself and say the TCD paper now looks very weak. > Its > > clearly outdated technically and it would be fascinating to see what > would > > happen if a leading academic revisited it, perhaps in a couple of years > > time when the new M222 branches are well fleshed out. > > > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 06:20:01 -0700 > > > From: john.plummer@snet.net > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall haplotype 'dubious' - Professor Mark Thomas > > > > > > Professor Thomas used a bad example. There are some very good > > scientists and very good genealogists involved in the R-M222 Project and > > there is good reason to believe in the Niall of the 9 Hostages origin. > > Project heads are very aware of non-paternal events and have identified > a > > number of them. They expect a percentage of these and allow for them. > > Although the study of David Wilson et al originally was based on > > population distributions, the study has gone far beyond that. Many > surnames > > in the study are derived in the traditional Irish pedigrees from Niall. > > Not all, but that is to be expected because of the non-paternal effect > and > > because not all name adoptions are documented. Moreover, the DNA of many > > clan chiefs has been obtained. Brian Sykes has been quite successful in > > this, for one. A few bogus or mistaken pedigrees have been uncovered, > but > > generally they appear accurate. > > > > > > Now, this is not to say that there are not some dubious > identifications. > > I have produced at least one incorrect one myself. I have used clusters > > of close matches among Welsh and other surnames to identify common > > ancestors. Say there is a cluster of 5 surnames examples of each of > which > > are found in Siddons classic reference as descendants of a particular > > tribe. That tribe will likely descend from an ancestor of a thousand > years > > ago, possibly much earlier. But on at least one occasion I have used too > > few dna matches and too few tribal associations. Reviewing later with > more > > information an entirely different result might appear. > > > > > > So, while Professor Thomas may, almost certainly is, correct in some > > instances, a blanket generalization should not be accepted. Each > ancestral > > identification should be considered separately. > > > > > > John Plummer > > > > > > > > > On Monday, May 26, 2014 4:24 AM, Iain Kennedy < > > ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > I recently contacted Professor Mark Thomas at the UCL Genetics > > department who has been vocal in his criticism of 'bad DNA ancestry', > > particularly some of the claims from BritainsDNA about Viking, Pictish > DNA > > etc. > > > > > > I pointed out that FTDNA are making similar claims about 'matching > > Niall' and asked whether he might look into and comment on this too. As a > > result he has now updated his page here: > > > > > > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking/companies > > > > > > and included the FTDNA marketing blurb under 'Dubious commercial > > claims'. I recommend you read the comments; although unsigned there is a > > small team who author the pages > > > > > > >From http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking > > > > > > "The primary authors are > > > > > > David Balding, Professor of Statistical Genetics, UCL > > > Debbie Kennett, Honorary Research Fellow, UCL > > > Mark Thomas, Professor of Evolutionary Genetics, UCL > > > Adrian Timpson, Research Associate, UCL > > > " > > > > > > I don't know whether Mark Thomas actually literally wrote the Niall > > section but he and Professor Balding can be taken to have endorsed the > > remarks. > > > > > > Note in particular the paper cited within the comments about Ghengis > > Khan and Niall, > > > > > > "Inferring Genetic Ancestry: Opportunities, Challenges, and > Implications" > > > > > > http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297%2810%2900155-2?cc=y?cc=y > > > > > > on p667 I quote > > > > > > "We emphasize, however, that whenever formal inferences about > population > > history have been attempted with uniparental > > > systems, the statistical power is generally low. Claims of connections, > > therefore, between specific > > > uniparental lineages and historical figures or historical migrations of > > peoples are merely speculative." > > > > > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

A note about east Down which is an example of the Fourteenth century "Gaelic Reconquista" by a different group. The Clandeboye O'Neill (Clann Aodha Buí) were a minor branch of the Tyrone O'Neill who retook the area of Down and Antrim that had been called by the Normans the Earldom of Ulster, in the 1330s. In his book about the Diocese of Down and Connor, O'Laverty states that most of the Catholic families in east Down are descendants of the Clandeboye. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Ó Du??aig Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2014 3:30 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall haplotype 'dubious' - Professor Mark Thomas Alan, It's worth considering that the bulk of territory held by Clann Chólmain became "sword land" after 1170. Been conqueored by the de Lace's and incorporated into the "Lordship of Meath" (possibly the most important Norman lordship in Ireland before the rise of "Kildare" -- Geraldines) They were obviously displaced from bulk of their territory and reduced to one barony in what is now westmeath. Even now there's some debate on wether their main lineage still exists as a valid surname (most people think it was gradually anglicised to either O'Loughlin or McLoughlin. They basically lost everything in the 17th century. Often during what we could term the "Gaelic Reconquista" of the late 14th century to late 15th century (early 16th century), we often see land coming under the rule of not the original pre-invasion dynasts but under new groupings, who were often marginal before hand. We have to consider fact that outside of "East Ulster" (East of the Bann) that the rest of what we c! all Ulster today (Back in day only east of Bann was still classed as "Ulster") remained under Irish rule until the end of 9year war in 1603. I do wonder if it was just a case that they had sample basis due to their method of collecting samples (phone books, using a list of surnames) from the 1901 surname I see that there are at lest 250 people in Westmeath who bore surnames of order O'Loughlin, Loughlin, Laughlin, McLaughlin etc. We do have some southern Uí Néill names that appear to be M222. Namely Molloy (Cénel Fiachra -- Fir Cell) and McGeoghan (Cénel Fiachra). There's also the fact of the high number of Connachta surnames namely Uí Bhriúin (O'Connor, McManus, O'Rourke, Concannon) and Uí Fhiachrae (O'Shaughnessy, O'Dowd) who show up M222+. I'll have to dig out Lacey's book but from what I recall of it his argument that the "Northern Uí Néill" were actually Cruithin (Dal nAraide) was based on the presense of one personal name in both lineages. He used this as his starting point and went from there. Regarding the Ó Néill (Ua Néill -- O'Neill surname) there's been debate for last hundred years or so about their lineage potentially been dubious, given there displacement from the "throne of the north" (In Tuaisceart -- Aileach) for over 120+ years by the Ó Lochlainn/Mac Lochlainn. It it's true it's kinda ironic because alot people would argue that "Aodh Mór Ó Néill" (Hugh O'Neill -- 2nd Earl of Tyrone) himself was part of an NPE into this line (his father Feardorcha aka Matthew Baron of Dungannon -- the supposed son of Kelly the Blacksmith of Dundalk). Feardorcha mother claimed on her deathbed that he was the son of Conn Ó Néill (1st Earl of Tyrone) -- quite a common occurence in Gaelic Ireland -- Conn was known to say "that he never forsoke a son claimed to be his" (an extra swordsman is always a bonus). The problem of course is that the English then put Feardorcha as Conn successor (after "Surrender and Regrant"), this set Séan (Shane the proud) the oldest surviving son (by marriage) on the warpath. >From what I can see the "O'Neill variant" haplotype that John McLaughlin wrote about is DF27+ (Z196-). It's rather interesting of course that after the destruction of the power of the Mac Lochlainn that the powerbase shifted to what is now "East Tyrone", the Cénel nEoghain having been based in Inishowen (now part of Donegal) for the previous 700years. -Paul (DF41+) On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 10:47 AM, <alanmill10@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul, thank you for sharing this article from "Princes, prelates and > poets in medieval Ireland" (2013). Catherine Swift's article has > neatly summarized some of the key issues that have been discussed on > and off on this forum in the past. > > Her point about the Clann Cholmain and Cenel Eogain is well justified, > as the power base of the of Clann Cholmain was located in the eastern > midlands of Ireland and by the ninth century, the power base of the > Cenel Eogain had shifted into eastern Tyrone. In these areas, one > would reasonably expect to find a higher preponderance of the > IMH/M222, which the Trinity College Dublin team either didn't capture or uncover in their study. > > Catherine's article also ties in with another article written by her > in 1994, which Brian Lacey cites in relation to 'Tirechan's > Collectanea'. For those who have not ready her article, a copy can be > downloaded from the following site. > > > http://dspace.mic.ul.ie/bitstream/10395/1744/2/Swift,%20C.(1994),%20'T > %C3%ADrech%C3%A1n's%20Motives%20in%20Compiling%20the%20%22Collectanea% > 22%3A%20An%20Alternative%20Interpretation'(Journal%20Article).pdf > > She highlights in her article the great churches founded by St. > Patrick in Ireland and what she believed are Tirechan's motives for > writing his book, and suggests Tirechan was seeking to elevate the Ui > Neill and in particular, the family of Conall son of Niall. This was > Conall Cremthainne to distinguish him from Conall Gulban, founder of > the Cenel Conaill. An English translation of Tirechan's Collectanea > can be found in the following > link: > > http://www.confessio.ie/more/tirechan_english# > > It is interesting that in Catherine's article 'Tirechan's Motives in > Compiling the Collectanea', she accepts the genealogical claim that > Conall Gulban was the son of Niall. However, her position > significantly changes in 'Interlaced Scholarship: genealogies and > genetics in twenty-first-century Ireland', where she now refers to > Conall Gulban as being the 'putative' son of Niall. > > In her 1994 article, she makes another interesting observation in > relation to the way Tirechan applies royal status through the use of > the word 'rex'=king and notes, he limits the use of this Latin word to > the Ui Neill kings. However, where he names Loegaire, Cairpre, Conall > and Fiachu from the southern Ui Neill the sons of Niall, no such > patrimony is given to Conall of Co. Donegal. > > Coupled with Adomnan's life of St. Columba, Tirechan's Collectanea > adds further weight to that statement made about Columba's > relationship with the Ui Neill, that they were "my friends by kinship" > (Andersons) and if the Ui Neill are identified with the southern Ui > Neill, this would point to a different type of relationship with the > Cenel Conaill. Since the Irish M222 is largely attached to NW Ireland, > it would also beg the question, which Brian Lacey asked (p. 155), if > the Cenel Conaill and Cenel Eogain did not really belong to the Ui Neill, then who were they? > > Have either you or anyone else familiar with Brian Lacey's book 'Cenel > Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms' considered his alternative genealogy > for the Cenel Conaill? > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ <pduffy81@gmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Mon, 26 May 2014 17:33 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall haplotype 'dubious' - Professor Mark > Thomas > > > Worth a read: > > > http://www.academia.edu/3363365/Interlaced_scholarship_genealogies_and > _genetics_in_twenty-first-century_Ireland > > -Paul > (DF41+) > > > On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Iain Kennedy > <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com > >wrote: > > > I would take a step back and compare and contrast > > > > 1. The supposed identification of Richard III - to be fully revealed > > in a paper by Turi King yet to appear 2. The task of doing a similar > > id of a Niall find from the current work > at > > Faughan Hill in the LIARI project - see Spring 2014 issue of > > Archaelogy Ireland and > > https://www.facebook.com/LateIronAgeAndRomanIreland?filter=1 > > 3. The task of proving this claim without a body. > > > > I can only speak for myself and say the TCD paper now looks very weak. > Its > > clearly outdated technically and it would be fascinating to see what > would > > happen if a leading academic revisited it, perhaps in a couple of > > years time when the new M222 branches are well fleshed out. > > > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 06:20:01 -0700 > > > From: john.plummer@snet.net > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall haplotype 'dubious' - Professor Mark > > > Thomas > > > > > > Professor Thomas used a bad example. There are some very good > > scientists and very good genealogists involved in the R-M222 Project > > and there is good reason to believe in the Niall of the 9 Hostages origin. > > Project heads are very aware of non-paternal events and have > > identified > a > > number of them. They expect a percentage of these and allow for them. > > Although the study of David Wilson et al originally was based on > > population distributions, the study has gone far beyond that. Many > surnames > > in the study are derived in the traditional Irish pedigrees from Niall. > > Not all, but that is to be expected because of the non-paternal > > effect > and > > because not all name adoptions are documented. Moreover, the DNA of > > many clan chiefs has been obtained. Brian Sykes has been quite > > successful in this, for one. A few bogus or mistaken pedigrees have > > been uncovered, > but > > generally they appear accurate. > > > > > > Now, this is not to say that there are not some dubious > identifications. > > I have produced at least one incorrect one myself. I have used > > clusters of close matches among Welsh and other surnames to identify > > common ancestors. Say there is a cluster of 5 surnames examples of > > each of > which > > are found in Siddons classic reference as descendants of a > > particular tribe. That tribe will likely descend from an ancestor > > of a thousand > years > > ago, possibly much earlier. But on at least one occasion I have > > used too few dna matches and too few tribal associations. Reviewing > > later with > more > > information an entirely different result might appear. > > > > > > So, while Professor Thomas may, almost certainly is, correct in > > > some > > instances, a blanket generalization should not be accepted. Each > ancestral > > identification should be considered separately. > > > > > > John Plummer > > > > > > > > > On Monday, May 26, 2014 4:24 AM, Iain Kennedy < > > ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > I recently contacted Professor Mark Thomas at the UCL Genetics > > department who has been vocal in his criticism of 'bad DNA > > ancestry', particularly some of the claims from BritainsDNA about > > Viking, Pictish > DNA > > etc. > > > > > > I pointed out that FTDNA are making similar claims about 'matching > > Niall' and asked whether he might look into and comment on this too. > > As a result he has now updated his page here: > > > > > > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking/companies > > > > > > and included the FTDNA marketing blurb under 'Dubious commercial > > claims'. I recommend you read the comments; although unsigned there > > is a small team who author the pages > > > > > > >From http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking > > > > > > "The primary authors are > > > > > > David Balding, Professor of Statistical Genetics, UCL > > > Debbie Kennett, Honorary Research Fellow, UCL > > > Mark Thomas, Professor of Evolutionary Genetics, UCL > > > Adrian Timpson, Research Associate, UCL " > > > > > > I don't know whether Mark Thomas actually literally wrote the > > > Niall > > section but he and Professor Balding can be taken to have endorsed > > the remarks. > > > > > > Note in particular the paper cited within the comments about > > > Ghengis > > Khan and Niall, > > > > > > "Inferring Genetic Ancestry: Opportunities, Challenges, and > Implications" > > > > > > http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297%2810%2900155-2?cc=y?c > > > c=y > > > > > > on p667 I quote > > > > > > "We emphasize, however, that whenever formal inferences about > population > > history have been attempted with uniparental > > > systems, the statistical power is generally low. Claims of > > > connections, > > therefore, between specific > > > uniparental lineages and historical figures or historical > > > migrations of > > peoples are merely speculative." > > > > > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

   One should remember that we are matching a modal (M222), not an actual human. Another son at Aileach in Donegal which seems to defy discussions about M222 is Enna. The three sons, Conal Gulban, Eoghan, and Enna were in competition for kingship of Aileach. Cenel Enna eventually became Cenel Moain whose chiefs for the most part were Gormleys. They owned much fertile land in Maghe Ith so were constantly at battle with Cenel Eoghan and Cenel Conal just to retain their lands They were also frequently at war with the O'Neills and Laughlins for control of Cenel Eoghan. In 1143 to 1145 Cenel Moain and Domnall O'Gormley actually attained kingship of Aileach as well as Cenel Eoghan. After that the Loughlins and O'Neills joined forces and defeated the O'Gormleys to the point that they would never attain such power again. However, They did retain their lands under the overlordship of either the O'Neills or the O'Donnells up until 1514.    When a Gormley which I am in contact with took the FTDNA tests, they matched the modal at a GD of two at 67 markers. I matched the M-222 Modal at a GD of 4 at 76 markers. The point being here that there are many other people who were historically related to Niall as well as are close matches to the M222 modal. I think this demonstrates there are many theories about Ole Niall, but we should also remember that the original theory should not be dismissed. Mike McNally f198682 Subtype M222+, S608+ FGC Kit # 5TF7R  On Saturday, May 31, 2014 4:27 PM, Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ <pduffy81@gmail.com> wrote: Alan, It's worth considering that the bulk of territory held by Clann Chólmain became "sword land" after 1170. Been conqueored by the de Lace's and incorporated into the "Lordship of Meath" (possibly the most important Norman lordship in Ireland before the rise of "Kildare" -- Geraldines) They were obviously displaced from bulk of their territory and reduced to one barony in what is now westmeath. Even now there's some debate on wether their main lineage still exists as a valid surname (most people think it was gradually anglicised to either O'Loughlin or McLoughlin. They basically lost everything in the 17th century. Often during what we could term the "Gaelic Reconquista" of the late 14th century to late 15th century (early 16th century), we often see land coming under the rule of not the original pre-invasion dynasts but under new groupings, who were often marginal before hand. We have to consider fact that outside of "East Ulster" (East of the Bann) that the rest of what we call Ulster today (Back in day only east of Bann was still classed as "Ulster") remained under Irish rule until the end of 9year war in 1603. I do wonder if it was just a case that they had sample basis due to their method of collecting samples (phone books, using a list of surnames) from the 1901 surname I see that there are at lest 250 people in Westmeath who bore surnames of order O'Loughlin, Loughlin, Laughlin, McLaughlin etc. We do have some southern Uí Néill names that appear to be M222. Namely Molloy (Cénel Fiachra -- Fir Cell) and McGeoghan (Cénel Fiachra). There's also the fact of the high number of Connachta surnames namely Uí Bhriúin (O'Connor, McManus, O'Rourke, Concannon) and Uí Fhiachrae (O'Shaughnessy, O'Dowd) who show up M222+. I'll have to dig out Lacey's book but from what I recall of it his argument that the "Northern Uí Néill" were actually Cruithin (Dal nAraide) was based on the presense of one personal name in both lineages. He used this as his starting point and went from there. Regarding the Ó Néill (Ua Néill -- O'Neill surname) there's been debate for last hundred years or so about their lineage potentially been dubious, given there displacement from the "throne of the north" (In Tuaisceart -- Aileach) for over 120+ years by the Ó Lochlainn/Mac Lochlainn. It it's true it's kinda ironic because alot people would argue that "Aodh Mór Ó Néill" (Hugh O'Neill -- 2nd Earl of Tyrone) himself was part of an NPE into this line (his father Feardorcha aka Matthew Baron of Dungannon -- the supposed son of Kelly the Blacksmith of Dundalk). Feardorcha mother claimed on her deathbed that he was the son of Conn Ó Néill (1st Earl of Tyrone) -- quite a common occurence in Gaelic Ireland -- Conn was known to say "that he never forsoke a son claimed to be his" (an extra swordsman is always a bonus). The problem of course is that the English then put Feardorcha as Conn successor (after "Surrender and Regrant"), this set Séan (Shane the proud) the oldest surviving son (by marriage) on the warpath. >From what I can see the "O'Neill variant" haplotype that John McLaughlin wrote about is DF27+ (Z196-). It's rather interesting of course that after the destruction of the power of the Mac Lochlainn that the powerbase shifted to what is now "East Tyrone", the Cénel nEoghain having been based in Inishowen (now part of Donegal) for the previous 700years. -Paul (DF41+) On Sat, May 31, 2014 at 10:47 AM, <alanmill10@aol.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Paul, thank you for sharing this article from "Princes, prelates and poets > in medieval Ireland" (2013). Catherine Swift's article has neatly > summarized some of the key issues that have been discussed on and off on > this forum in the past. > > Her point about the Clann Cholmain and Cenel Eogain is well justified, as > the power base of the of Clann Cholmain was located in the eastern midlands > of Ireland and by the ninth century, the power base of the Cenel Eogain had > shifted into eastern Tyrone.  In these areas, one would reasonably expect > to find a higher preponderance of the IMH/M222, which the Trinity College > Dublin team either didn't capture or uncover in their study. > > Catherine's article also ties in with another article written by her in > 1994, which Brian Lacey cites in relation to 'Tirechan's  Collectanea'. For > those who have not ready her article, a copy can be downloaded from the > following site. > > > http://dspace.mic.ul.ie/bitstream/10395/1744/2/Swift,%20C.(1994),%20'T%C3%ADrech%C3%A1n's%20Motives%20in%20Compiling%20the%20%22Collectanea%22%3A%20An%20Alternative%20Interpretation'(Journal%20Article).pdf > > She highlights in her article the great churches founded by St. Patrick in > Ireland and what she believed are Tirechan's motives for writing his book, > and suggests Tirechan was seeking to elevate the Ui Neill and in > particular, the family of Conall son of Niall.  This was Conall Cremthainne > to distinguish him from Conall Gulban, founder of the Cenel Conaill. An > English translation of Tirechan's Collectanea can be found in the following > link: > > http://www.confessio.ie/more/tirechan_english# > > It is interesting that in Catherine's article 'Tirechan's Motives in > Compiling the Collectanea', she accepts the genealogical claim that Conall > Gulban was the son of Niall.  However, her position significantly changes > in 'Interlaced Scholarship: genealogies and genetics in > twenty-first-century Ireland', where she now refers to Conall Gulban as > being the 'putative' son of Niall. > > In her 1994 article, she makes another interesting observation in relation > to the way Tirechan applies royal status through the use of the word > 'rex'=king and notes, he limits the use of this Latin word to the Ui Neill > kings. However, where he names Loegaire, Cairpre, Conall and Fiachu from > the southern Ui Neill the sons of Niall, no such patrimony is given to > Conall of Co. Donegal. > > Coupled with Adomnan's life of St. Columba, Tirechan's Collectanea adds > further weight to that statement made about Columba's relationship with the > Ui Neill, that they were "my friends by kinship" (Andersons) and if the Ui > Neill are identified with the southern Ui Neill, this would point to a > different type of relationship with the Cenel Conaill. Since the Irish M222 > is largely attached to NW Ireland, it would also beg the question, which > Brian Lacey asked (p. 155), if the Cenel Conaill and Cenel Eogain did not > really belong to the Ui Neill, then who were they? > > Have either you or anyone else familiar with Brian Lacey's book 'Cenel > Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms' considered his alternative genealogy for > the Cenel Conaill? > > Alan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Ó Duḃṫaiġ <pduffy81@gmail.com> > To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Mon, 26 May 2014 17:33 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall haplotype 'dubious' - Professor Mark Thomas > > > Worth a read: > > > http://www.academia.edu/3363365/Interlaced_scholarship_genealogies_and_genetics_in_twenty-first-century_Ireland > > -Paul > (DF41+) > > > On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Iain Kennedy <ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com > >wrote: > > > I would take a step back and compare and contrast > > > > 1. The supposed identification of Richard III - to be fully revealed in a > > paper by Turi King yet to appear > > 2. The task of doing a similar id of a Niall find from the current work > at > > Faughan Hill in the LIARI project - see Spring 2014 issue of Archaelogy > > Ireland and https://www.facebook.com/LateIronAgeAndRomanIreland?filter=1 > > 3. The task of proving this claim without a body. > > > > I can only speak for myself and say the TCD paper now looks very weak. > Its > > clearly outdated technically and it would be fascinating to see what > would > > happen if a leading academic revisited it, perhaps in a couple of years > > time when the new M222 branches are well fleshed out. > > > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 06:20:01 -0700 > > > From: john.plummer@snet.net > > > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall haplotype 'dubious' - Professor Mark Thomas > > > > > > Professor Thomas used a bad example.  There are some very good > > scientists and very good genealogists involved in the R-M222 Project and > > there is good reason to believe in the Niall of the 9 Hostages origin. > >  Project heads are very aware of non-paternal events and have identified > a > > number of them.  They expect a percentage of these and allow for them. > >  Although the study of David Wilson et al originally was based on > > population distributions, the study has gone far beyond that. Many > surnames > > in the study are derived in the traditional Irish pedigrees from Niall. > >  Not all, but that is to be expected because of the non-paternal effect > and > > because not all name adoptions are documented.  Moreover, the DNA of many > > clan chiefs has been obtained.  Brian Sykes has been quite successful in > > this, for one.  A few bogus or mistaken pedigrees have been uncovered, > but > > generally they appear accurate. > > > > > > Now, this is not to say that there are not some dubious > identifications. > >  I have produced at least one incorrect one myself.  I have used clusters > > of close matches among Welsh and other surnames to identify common > > ancestors.  Say there is a cluster of 5 surnames examples of each of > which > > are found in Siddons classic reference as descendants of a particular > > tribe.  That tribe will likely descend from an ancestor of a thousand > years > > ago, possibly much earlier.  But on at least one occasion I have used too > > few dna matches and too few tribal associations.  Reviewing later with > more > > information an entirely different result might appear. > > > > > > So, while Professor Thomas may, almost certainly is, correct in some > > instances, a blanket generalization should not be accepted.  Each > ancestral > > identification should be considered separately. > > > > > > John Plummer > > > > > > > > > On Monday, May 26, 2014 4:24 AM, Iain Kennedy < > > ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > List, > > > > > > I recently contacted Professor Mark Thomas at the UCL Genetics > > department who has been vocal in his criticism of 'bad DNA ancestry', > > particularly some of the claims from BritainsDNA about Viking, Pictish > DNA > > etc. > > > > > > I pointed out that FTDNA are making similar claims about 'matching > > Niall' and asked whether he might look into and comment on this too. As a > > result he has now updated his page here: > > > > > > http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking/companies > > > > > > and included the FTDNA marketing blurb under 'Dubious commercial > > claims'. I recommend you read the comments; although unsigned there is a > > small team who author the pages > > > > > > >From http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debunking > > > > > > "The primary authors are > > > > > >    David Balding, Professor of Statistical Genetics, UCL > > >    Debbie Kennett,  Honorary Research Fellow, UCL > > >    Mark Thomas, Professor of Evolutionary Genetics, UCL > > >    Adrian Timpson, Research Associate, UCL > > > " > > > > > > I don't know whether Mark Thomas actually literally wrote the Niall > > section but he and Professor Balding can be taken to have endorsed the > > remarks. > > > > > > Note in particular the paper cited within the comments about Ghengis > > Khan and Niall, > > > > > > "Inferring Genetic Ancestry: Opportunities, Challenges, and > Implications" > > > > > > http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0002-9297%2810%2900155-2?cc=y?cc=y > > > > > > on p667 I quote > > > > > > "We emphasize, however, that whenever formal inferences about > population > > history have been attempted with uniparental > > > systems, the statistical power is generally low. Claims of connections, > > therefore, between specific > > > uniparental lineages and historical figures or historical migrations of > > peoples are merely speculative." > > > > > > Iain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Chromo2 reported Beirne 38730 only as S7073. He is ordering a FGC4077 test from YSEQ