Objectively speaking, this will be an interesting test case. Whether or not this type of investigation will become a possible go to solution for some large surname projects where the members of several haplogroups and/or sub-clades of a haplogroup are claiming the same ancestor will be dependent on whether or not viable YDNA may be extracted and sequenced and/or SNP scanned from the remains. YDNA isn't nearly as easy to obtain and it degrades quite quickly. The Y of the car park body AKA Richard III hasn't yet progressed; that said the burial conditions between the two bodies is significantly different and in the case of the Barrymore remains, more recent. It also would be interesting to know exactly how it was that permissions for such examination occurred to begin with. I dare say that many would like to retrieve remains interred at Iona to settle some claims, but that likely will not happen; and in general, I believe the powers that be more or less have similar opinions on the matter as Malcolm in believing that such examinations may go too far to satisfy curiosity. Is direct documented family involved? I do not know enough regarding the circumstances leading to this investigation to know any more than what has been published about it. I haven't seen much discussion anywhere, so what the varying opinions outside of what has been discussed here, I don't know. None the less, regardless of opinion, I think there is much to learn from this, and I too am interested in knowing the outcome. Susan On 6/15/2014 10:45 AM, Michael McNally wrote: > I think we should take advantage of every opportunity we have to examine the DNA of old remains if there is a paper trail to it. If we just sit back and philosophize on the negatives and positives, there will be no opportunity to see if our work has actual validity. > > Mike McNally > f198682 > > > >

I'm now getting four matches with a GD of 3 at 37 who are estimated as being R-F3952 but who have not tested. I can't find any others that match at any other level. As well as the Meek there is a McGrath, a Ferguson and a Morley. Rob Sent from my iPhone Sent from my iPhone

Susan,    In response to your request to Iain, mine is: Michael McNally f198682 Chromo 2 raw #457 :S603+, S590- On Saturday, June 14, 2014 3:47 AM, Susan Hedeen <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: Iain, Would you please inform me of the kit numbers and the vendors for results you put on tree? If coming from either Chromo2 or BIG, please inform me of the negative results just below the terminal Thanks, Susan On 6/14/2014 2:55 AM, Iain Kennedy wrote: > As we are all probably aware, several vendors have sales up to Father's Day tomorrow: > > FullGenomes have a coupon code on their website > YSEQ have reduced price SNPs until tomorrow > FTDNA have cut the price for BigY and are handing out discount codes too (make sure you combine both price cuts) > > I wanted to get the latest tree out whilst there is still a chance to take advantage of these deals, especially if you wanted to do some custom SNPs at YSEQ. Again I would particularly plug anyone who got a S660 or S659 terminal SNP from Chromo2 to give the new sub-branches a go as some of them look like taking off, especially the A259/A260 group. > > Changes to the tree: > Peter Savage FGC12948+ > David Milliken FGC4133+ (info provided by Alan M.) > Everett Neal S7073+ > George (MDKA) DePew A259/A260+ > > I am waiting for a final result from Steve Lominac before adding his new data. > > I also tidied up the displayed text for the FGC4077/FGC4078/FGC4087 box as the last SNP name was previously truncated. > > i have also confirmed the following from raw data as there were slight question marks over these results: > > O'Shaughnessy (A259+ A260+) is FGC5932.2- > Rod Dunbar and Male Hamilton are both confirmed S7814+ F1265- > > > http://www.kennedydna.com/M222.pdf > > Iain > > >  >                        > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think we should take advantage of every opportunity we have to examine the DNA of old remains if there is a paper trail to it. If we just sit back and philosophize on the negatives and positives, there will be no opportunity to see if our work has actual validity. Mike McNally f198682  On Sunday, June 15, 2014 9:24 AM, Michael McNally <tyrodin@yahoo.com> wrote: Susan,    This is a rare and fantastic opportunity. Will they test all of the remains? Regardless, I will follow this with great interest. Thank you for sharing, Mike McNally f198682 On Saturday, June 14, 2014 12:49 PM, Susan Hedeen <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: A quote from the approach: > > The principal objective of  the Barrymore Project is to illuminate the > origins and evolution of the Barry family, a prominent > Anglo-Norman-Irish dynasty.  To accomplish this, an effort is under > way to conduct DNA testing of the remains of Richard Barry, 6th Earl > of Barrymore, interred at Castlelyons > <http://www.castlelyonsparish.com/history/churches-graveyards/castlelyons-graveyard/> in > County Cork. > > The first step will be a detailed examination by forensic > anthropologists of the several remains in the mausoleum.  The initial > goal will be to identify the biological sex, age-at-death and > distinguishing physical characteristics of the individuals interred > there, and to confirm that one set of remains is consistent with > historical information about Richard Barry.  Radio-carbon dating will > also be employed to estimate the age of the remains. We will also > document any salient points regarding the conditions of the remains > and any light that can shed on his medical and personal history. > > Once the remains have been confirmed as those of Richard two samples > will be taken for DNA analysis.  The selection of the samples will be > made at the time of examination, but teeth and the femur are two areas > that have been identified as potential loci. > > The samples will be packaged securely, preserved, and shipped to two > laboratories, one at University College Dublin and the second at Gene > by Gene in Houston, Texas, USA.  There the samples will be prepared > for testing, and extraction of DNA will be undertaken.  If DNA can be > successfully isolated, the analysis can begin. > > While there is some passing interest in autosomal and mitochondrial > DNA results, the principal focus is on paternal (YDNA) testing, since > the male sex chromosome and the surname are passed down in tandem in > Ireland.  There are two types of desired results: > >  * Short tandem repeat (STR) testing, which can provide data for >    comparing the results of this project with test results of other >    men with the Barry surname and for estimating the time to most >    recent common ancestor (TMRCA). >  * Single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) testing, to assist in >    identifying the haplogroups (deep ancestry) of the individual >    whose remains are in the mausoleum, as well as his relationship to >    the other groups of Barry men for whom comparable results are >    available. > > The optimal result of the first test would be to obtain values for the > 37 STR markers used in the YDNA test provided by Family TreeDNA > <https://www.familytreedna.com/y-dna-compare.aspx>, a subsidiary of > Gene by Gene that specializes in DNA testing for genealogy.Most of the > 65 sets of results available for Barry men > <https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44452288/Updated%20Report%20on%20Barry%20YDNA%20Project%2017%20Mar%201014.docx> > are from this test, and the others are easily converted to that format. > > The Barry men who have tested fall into three major haplogroups, E, R > and I and into several subclades (subgroups), defined by specific SNPS > within those haplogroups. The SNPS of greatest interest are: > > E1b-M35.1 > > I-L22 > > I-M253 > > I2-L161 > > R1b-U106 > > R1b-Z49 > > R1b-L21. > > If the remains test positive for L21, then an attempt should be made > to test for several L-21 subclades, specifically DF41_N, L159.2, L193, > L643, L1066, *M222*, L144 and L195. It may be possible to narrow down > the number of subclades if enough STR values are available to estimate > the more likely ones. > > If the optimal levels of STR and SNP testing are not possible, some > important conclusions could be drawn from less detailed results.For > example, if results for the first 12 STR markers were available, the > individual's major haplogroup could be estimated with a fair degree of > confidence using available haplotype calculators.Also, modal haplotype > for the various groups of Barry men who have tested are available for > comparison.The number of markers in these haplotypes is generally 37, > although some have as many as 111 markers, which would permit > comparison with STRs other than those in the 37-marker test.  If the > lower level SNP tests are not possible, but some of the SNPS upstream > of those listed above could be evaluated, then the major haplogroups > and possibly some subclades could be identified. > > If these tests are successful, the results will be compared with those > of other Barry men to determine their paternal relationships and > documented in online reports and an article for peer review and > publication. > On 6/14/2014 12:37 PM, Susan Hedeen wrote: > This article should interest folks.  This is the marriage of the > scientific and genetic genealogy aspects we all aspire to in the quest > to sort out who may be be who and from whom they descend. > https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/home > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Meek has a separate derivative from Maon. Meek is an English and Scots nickname for a self-effacing person, or a gentle and compassionate one. Interestingly, it is found in the east of Scotland, where several other surnames have produced some interesting results. -----Original Message----- From: Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sun, 15 Jun 2014 3:35 Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-F3952 SNP positive results 115251 is surnamed Meek? I believe F3952 is a Cenel Maoin marker. Also believe Maon could be translated as Meek? > > Working on the project excel just now and found 115251 with the assignment > of R-F3952. > > Matches 235771 for 34/37. > > Matches 171920 who is DF97 positive 33/37. > > I found no record on the 115251 for testing this SNP at FTDNA so must be > otherwise ;-) but this assignment of the new SNP on the project excel is > perhaps a first of this nature by FTDNA without the member having ordered > and tested. Hopefully, a good sign of great things to come. > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Susan,    This is a rare and fantastic opportunity. Will they test all of the remains? Regardless, I will follow this with great interest. Thank you for sharing, Mike McNally f198682 On Saturday, June 14, 2014 12:49 PM, Susan Hedeen <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> wrote: A quote from the approach: > > The principal objective of  the Barrymore Project is to illuminate the > origins and evolution of the Barry family, a prominent > Anglo-Norman-Irish dynasty.  To accomplish this, an effort is under > way to conduct DNA testing of the remains of Richard Barry, 6th Earl > of Barrymore, interred at Castlelyons > <http://www.castlelyonsparish.com/history/churches-graveyards/castlelyons-graveyard/> in > County Cork. > > The first step will be a detailed examination by forensic > anthropologists of the several remains in the mausoleum.  The initial > goal will be to identify the biological sex, age-at-death and > distinguishing physical characteristics of the individuals interred > there, and to confirm that one set of remains is consistent with > historical information about Richard Barry.  Radio-carbon dating will > also be employed to estimate the age of the remains. We will also > document any salient points regarding the conditions of the remains > and any light that can shed on his medical and personal history. > > Once the remains have been confirmed as those of Richard two samples > will be taken for DNA analysis.  The selection of the samples will be > made at the time of examination, but teeth and the femur are two areas > that have been identified as potential loci. > > The samples will be packaged securely, preserved, and shipped to two > laboratories, one at University College Dublin and the second at Gene > by Gene in Houston, Texas, USA.  There the samples will be prepared > for testing, and extraction of DNA will be undertaken.  If DNA can be > successfully isolated, the analysis can begin. > > While there is some passing interest in autosomal and mitochondrial > DNA results, the principal focus is on paternal (YDNA) testing, since > the male sex chromosome and the surname are passed down in tandem in > Ireland.  There are two types of desired results: > >  * Short tandem repeat (STR) testing, which can provide data for >    comparing the results of this project with test results of other >    men with the Barry surname and for estimating the time to most >    recent common ancestor (TMRCA). >  * Single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) testing, to assist in >    identifying the haplogroups (deep ancestry) of the individual >    whose remains are in the mausoleum, as well as his relationship to >    the other groups of Barry men for whom comparable results are >    available. > > The optimal result of the first test would be to obtain values for the > 37 STR markers used in the YDNA test provided by Family TreeDNA > <https://www.familytreedna.com/y-dna-compare.aspx>, a subsidiary of > Gene by Gene that specializes in DNA testing for genealogy.Most of the > 65 sets of results available for Barry men > <https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44452288/Updated%20Report%20on%20Barry%20YDNA%20Project%2017%20Mar%201014.docx> > are from this test, and the others are easily converted to that format. > > The Barry men who have tested fall into three major haplogroups, E, R > and I and into several subclades (subgroups), defined by specific SNPS > within those haplogroups. The SNPS of greatest interest are: > > E1b-M35.1 > > I-L22 > > I-M253 > > I2-L161 > > R1b-U106 > > R1b-Z49 > > R1b-L21. > > If the remains test positive for L21, then an attempt should be made > to test for several L-21 subclades, specifically DF41_N, L159.2, L193, > L643, L1066, *M222*, L144 and L195. It may be possible to narrow down > the number of subclades if enough STR values are available to estimate > the more likely ones. > > If the optimal levels of STR and SNP testing are not possible, some > important conclusions could be drawn from less detailed results.For > example, if results for the first 12 STR markers were available, the > individual's major haplogroup could be estimated with a fair degree of > confidence using available haplotype calculators.Also, modal haplotype > for the various groups of Barry men who have tested are available for > comparison.The number of markers in these haplotypes is generally 37, > although some have as many as 111 markers, which would permit > comparison with STRs other than those in the 37-marker test.  If the > lower level SNP tests are not possible, but some of the SNPS upstream > of those listed above could be evaluated, then the major haplogroups > and possibly some subclades could be identified. > > If these tests are successful, the results will be compared with those > of other Barry men to determine their paternal relationships and > documented in online reports and an article for peer review and > publication. > On 6/14/2014 12:37 PM, Susan Hedeen wrote: > This article should interest folks.  This is the marriage of the > scientific and genetic genealogy aspects we all aspire to in the quest > to sort out who may be be who and from whom they descend. > https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/home > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

  Cenel Moain was under the lordship of O'Gormley by the time surnames came along. There are other clans associated with Cenel Moain such as McAnally, Cenel Moain Sept Uachtarach (upper), O'Kelly, O'Tierney, O'Cernaghan, O'Lunny, O'Crean, and O'Duinechhaidh, but not Meeks. Even within the O'Gormley Clan, I've never seen Meeks as a first name. Moain's father was Muiredaigh, but I doubt that could be translated into Meeks. Thank you, Mike McNally f198682 On Saturday, June 14, 2014 10:35 PM, Bernard Morgan <bernardmorgan@hotmail.com> wrote: 115251 is surnamed Meek? I believe F3952 is a Cenel Maoin marker. Also believe Maon could be translated as Meek? > > Working on the project excel just now and found 115251 with the assignment > of R-F3952. > > Matches 235771 for 34/37. > > Matches 171920 who is DF97 positive 33/37. > > I found no record on the 115251 for testing this SNP at FTDNA so must be > otherwise ;-) but this assignment of the new SNP on the project excel is > perhaps a first of this nature by FTDNA without the member having ordered > and tested. Hopefully, a good sign of great things to come. >                         ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

115251 is surnamed Meek? I believe F3952 is a Cenel Maoin marker. Also believe Maon could be translated as Meek? > > Working on the project excel just now and found 115251 with the assignment > of R-F3952. > > Matches 235771 for 34/37. > > Matches 171920 who is DF97 positive 33/37. > > I found no record on the 115251 for testing this SNP at FTDNA so must be > otherwise ;-) but this assignment of the new SNP on the project excel is > perhaps a first of this nature by FTDNA without the member having ordered > and tested. Hopefully, a good sign of great things to come. >

I am sorry to say I don't trust this classification. There is no green color coding for the SNP, and the lack of green means (or has historically meant) that it is not the result of a positive test. On the individual's haplotree, it is color coded as "presumed positive." In the absence of a clear statement from FTDNA concerning assigned or projected terminal SNPs in individuals who appear to be untested, I would resist accepting the accuracy of this assignment. I remember too well the flurry of incorrect SNP reports and bad classifications that followed the initial release of the current YCC/Geno 2.0 tree. David -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of McKee Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 11:21 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] R-F3952 SNP positive results Working on the project excel just now and found 115251 with the assignment of R-F3952. Matches 235771 for 34/37. Matches 171920 who is DF97 positive 33/37. I found no record on the 115251 for testing this SNP at FTDNA so must be otherwise ;-) but this assignment of the new SNP on the project excel is perhaps a first of this nature by FTDNA without the member having ordered and tested. Hopefully, a good sign of great things to come. Apologies for not mentioning surnames (as I very much prefer to do) as I don't want to be singled out at Houston again. It's someone else's turn. ;-) Linda ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Susan There's a lot of wishful thinking about ancestors out there. In my opinion genetics is likely to give more productive results working backwards from living individuals rather than forwards from a putative, if illustrious person who happens to have had a similar name. The site claims that Richard Barry, 6th Earl of Barrymore belonged to "one of the most important Anglo-Irish families." For English people Barry is a short form of Bartholomew. For people in the north of Ireland the (made-up) name Barry's is associated with an amusement park in Portrush. For the Welsh it is the name of a town in Glamorgan. For the French it is the name of Louis XV's pimp/procurer Jean- Baptiste du Barry, nicknamed le roué, whose wife Madame du Barry was guillotined in the Revolution. For Italians Bari is a town in Apulia. Etc. Etc. People's names can have a multitude of origins and it seems better to let sleeping dogs lie. Digging up the dead is the last resort of the desperate. Malcolm. On 14 Jun 2014, at 20:34, Susan Hedeen wrote: > I really don't have an opinion on it; I see plus and minus from > several > points of view. On the one hand, what if genetic genealogy had > nothing > to do with this? Would the attitude be different? Suppose it was a > bog > body or an "under the car park body" rather than an identified grave? > > On the face of things one could say that disturbing the remains of a > known individual could be creepy I guess. On the other hand for an > environ in a region that seems consumed by history and historical > claims > regarding its past populations, the descending surnames, etc., it > could > be considered coming to grips with all the realities surrounding the > considerations of that. > > One only needs to refer to the many debates regarding the "Niall and > the > Nine Hostages" linkage to IMH and then M222 to understand that in > microcosm this may be a reflection of firming up the various claims > and > sorting quantifiable facts from unqualified speculation. > > Is it important? I don't know. > > We have many hundreds to thousands involved in genetic genealogy, more > involved in genealogy, and more yet involved in the attempt to > understand history and the place of our ancestral heritage and > ourselves, all spending multiples of thousands of dollars and > immeasurably more of investigative time in the quest to satisfy the > questions. Just how important is that? In the broader scope will any > of it alter this world as we know it? Bring a betterment in living to > man kind? Stop the wars, the hate, and the ill will that exists among > people? Will understanding our ancestors and from whence they came > alter history as we know it and then promote the better within us? > Tough questions that all come down to personal aspirations and > interests > and what they mean to us. > > I do understand your point of view as well as the other side. Susan > > On 6/14/2014 2:31 PM, Malcolm McClure wrote: >> Susan >> Maybe it's just me, but I find taking this extreme intrest in >> paternal genetics a bit creepy. The Scots have long been fascinated >> by the resurrectionists but this must be a new departure for the >> Irish. >> Malcolm >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Susan Maybe it's just me, but I find taking this extreme intrest in paternal genetics a bit creepy. The Scots have long been fascinated by the resurrectionists but this must be a new departure for the Irish. Malcolm Sent from a small screen (Spell-checker has mind of its one.) > On 14 Jun 2014, at 06:01 pm, John Loughney <john.loughney@gmail.com> wrote: > > If they are going through all of that trouble, why not do a Big Y test? > > Sent from my Lumia phone. > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Susan Hedeen" <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> > Sent: ‎6/‎14/‎2014 5:48 PM > To: "dna-r1b1c7" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] digging up the dead > > A quote from the approach: >> >> The principal objective of the Barrymore Project is to illuminate the >> origins and evolution of the Barry family, a prominent >> Anglo-Norman-Irish dynasty. To accomplish this, an effort is under >> way to conduct DNA testing of the remains of Richard Barry, 6th Earl >> of Barrymore, interred at Castlelyons >> <http://www.castlelyonsparish.com/history/churches-graveyards/castlelyons-graveyard/> in >> County Cork. >> >> The first step will be a detailed examination by forensic >> anthropologists of the several remains in the mausoleum. The initial >> goal will be to identify the biological sex, age-at-death and >> distinguishing physical characteristics of the individuals interred >> there, and to confirm that one set of remains is consistent with >> historical information about Richard Barry. Radio-carbon dating will >> also be employed to estimate the age of the remains. We will also >> document any salient points regarding the conditions of the remains >> and any light that can shed on his medical and personal history. >> >> Once the remains have been confirmed as those of Richard two samples >> will be taken for DNA analysis. The selection of the samples will be >> made at the time of examination, but teeth and the femur are two areas >> that have been identified as potential loci. >> >> The samples will be packaged securely, preserved, and shipped to two >> laboratories, one at University College Dublin and the second at Gene >> by Gene in Houston, Texas, USA. There the samples will be prepared >> for testing, and extraction of DNA will be undertaken. If DNA can be >> successfully isolated, the analysis can begin. >> >> While there is some passing interest in autosomal and mitochondrial >> DNA results, the principal focus is on paternal (YDNA) testing, since >> the male sex chromosome and the surname are passed down in tandem in >> Ireland. There are two types of desired results: >> >> * Short tandem repeat (STR) testing, which can provide data for >> comparing the results of this project with test results of other >> men with the Barry surname and for estimating the time to most >> recent common ancestor (TMRCA). >> * Single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) testing, to assist in >> identifying the haplogroups (deep ancestry) of the individual >> whose remains are in the mausoleum, as well as his relationship to >> the other groups of Barry men for whom comparable results are >> available. >> >> The optimal result of the first test would be to obtain values for the >> 37 STR markers used in the YDNA test provided by Family TreeDNA >> <https://www.familytreedna.com/y-dna-compare.aspx>, a subsidiary of >> Gene by Gene that specializes in DNA testing for genealogy.Most of the >> 65 sets of results available for Barry men >> <https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44452288/Updated%20Report%20on%20Barry%20YDNA%20Project%2017%20Mar%201014.docx> >> are from this test, and the others are easily converted to that format. >> >> The Barry men who have tested fall into three major haplogroups, E, R >> and I and into several subclades (subgroups), defined by specific SNPS >> within those haplogroups. The SNPS of greatest interest are: >> >> E1b-M35.1 >> >> I-L22 >> >> I-M253 >> >> I2-L161 >> >> R1b-U106 >> >> R1b-Z49 >> >> R1b-L21. >> >> If the remains test positive for L21, then an attempt should be made >> to test for several L-21 subclades, specifically DF41_N, L159.2, L193, >> L643, L1066, *M222*, L144 and L195. It may be possible to narrow down >> the number of subclades if enough STR values are available to estimate >> the more likely ones. >> >> If the optimal levels of STR and SNP testing are not possible, some >> important conclusions could be drawn from less detailed results.For >> example, if results for the first 12 STR markers were available, the >> individual's major haplogroup could be estimated with a fair degree of >> confidence using available haplotype calculators.Also, modal haplotype >> for the various groups of Barry men who have tested are available for >> comparison.The number of markers in these haplotypes is generally 37, >> although some have as many as 111 markers, which would permit >> comparison with STRs other than those in the 37-marker test. If the >> lower level SNP tests are not possible, but some of the SNPS upstream >> of those listed above could be evaluated, then the major haplogroups >> and possibly some subclades could be identified. >> >> If these tests are successful, the results will be compared with those >> of other Barry men to determine their paternal relationships and >> documented in online reports and an article for peer review and >> publication. > > >> On 6/14/2014 12:37 PM, Susan Hedeen wrote: >> This article should interest folks. This is the marriage of the >> scientific and genetic genealogy aspects we all aspire to in the quest >> to sort out who may be be who and from whom they descend. >> https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/home >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

If they are going through all of that trouble, why not do a Big Y test? Sent from my Lumia phone. -----Original Message----- From: "Susan Hedeen" <chantillycarpets@earthlink.net> Sent: ‎6/‎14/‎2014 5:48 PM To: "dna-r1b1c7" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [R-M222] digging up the dead A quote from the approach: > > The principal objective of the Barrymore Project is to illuminate the > origins and evolution of the Barry family, a prominent > Anglo-Norman-Irish dynasty. To accomplish this, an effort is under > way to conduct DNA testing of the remains of Richard Barry, 6th Earl > of Barrymore, interred at Castlelyons > <http://www.castlelyonsparish.com/history/churches-graveyards/castlelyons-graveyard/> in > County Cork. > > The first step will be a detailed examination by forensic > anthropologists of the several remains in the mausoleum. The initial > goal will be to identify the biological sex, age-at-death and > distinguishing physical characteristics of the individuals interred > there, and to confirm that one set of remains is consistent with > historical information about Richard Barry. Radio-carbon dating will > also be employed to estimate the age of the remains. We will also > document any salient points regarding the conditions of the remains > and any light that can shed on his medical and personal history. > > Once the remains have been confirmed as those of Richard two samples > will be taken for DNA analysis. The selection of the samples will be > made at the time of examination, but teeth and the femur are two areas > that have been identified as potential loci. > > The samples will be packaged securely, preserved, and shipped to two > laboratories, one at University College Dublin and the second at Gene > by Gene in Houston, Texas, USA. There the samples will be prepared > for testing, and extraction of DNA will be undertaken. If DNA can be > successfully isolated, the analysis can begin. > > While there is some passing interest in autosomal and mitochondrial > DNA results, the principal focus is on paternal (YDNA) testing, since > the male sex chromosome and the surname are passed down in tandem in > Ireland. There are two types of desired results: > > * Short tandem repeat (STR) testing, which can provide data for > comparing the results of this project with test results of other > men with the Barry surname and for estimating the time to most > recent common ancestor (TMRCA). > * Single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) testing, to assist in > identifying the haplogroups (deep ancestry) of the individual > whose remains are in the mausoleum, as well as his relationship to > the other groups of Barry men for whom comparable results are > available. > > The optimal result of the first test would be to obtain values for the > 37 STR markers used in the YDNA test provided by Family TreeDNA > <https://www.familytreedna.com/y-dna-compare.aspx>, a subsidiary of > Gene by Gene that specializes in DNA testing for genealogy.Most of the > 65 sets of results available for Barry men > <https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44452288/Updated%20Report%20on%20Barry%20YDNA%20Project%2017%20Mar%201014.docx> > are from this test, and the others are easily converted to that format. > > The Barry men who have tested fall into three major haplogroups, E, R > and I and into several subclades (subgroups), defined by specific SNPS > within those haplogroups. The SNPS of greatest interest are: > > E1b-M35.1 > > I-L22 > > I-M253 > > I2-L161 > > R1b-U106 > > R1b-Z49 > > R1b-L21. > > If the remains test positive for L21, then an attempt should be made > to test for several L-21 subclades, specifically DF41_N, L159.2, L193, > L643, L1066, *M222*, L144 and L195. It may be possible to narrow down > the number of subclades if enough STR values are available to estimate > the more likely ones. > > If the optimal levels of STR and SNP testing are not possible, some > important conclusions could be drawn from less detailed results.For > example, if results for the first 12 STR markers were available, the > individual's major haplogroup could be estimated with a fair degree of > confidence using available haplotype calculators.Also, modal haplotype > for the various groups of Barry men who have tested are available for > comparison.The number of markers in these haplotypes is generally 37, > although some have as many as 111 markers, which would permit > comparison with STRs other than those in the 37-marker test. If the > lower level SNP tests are not possible, but some of the SNPS upstream > of those listed above could be evaluated, then the major haplogroups > and possibly some subclades could be identified. > > If these tests are successful, the results will be compared with those > of other Barry men to determine their paternal relationships and > documented in online reports and an article for peer review and > publication. > On 6/14/2014 12:37 PM, Susan Hedeen wrote: > This article should interest folks. This is the marriage of the > scientific and genetic genealogy aspects we all aspire to in the quest > to sort out who may be be who and from whom they descend. > https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/home > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

As a 'Barry' variant, I find this very interesting as I am still trying to identify which Barry variant my surname came from. I can honestly say I've joked about digging up a questionable ancestor or two for DNA testing. > On Jun 14, 2014, at 2:51 PM, Malcolm McClure <malcolmmcclure@mac.com> wrote: > > Susan > > There's a lot of wishful thinking about ancestors out there. In my > opinion genetics is likely to give more productive results working > backwards from living individuals rather than forwards from a > putative, if illustrious person who happens to have had a similar name. > The site claims that Richard Barry, 6th Earl of Barrymore belonged to > "one of the most important Anglo-Irish families." > > For English people Barry is a short form of Bartholomew. > > For people in the north of Ireland the (made-up) name Barry's is > associated with an amusement park in Portrush. > > For the Welsh it is the name of a town in Glamorgan. > For the French it is the name of Louis XV's pimp/procurer Jean- > Baptiste du Barry, nicknamed le roué, whose wife Madame du Barry was > guillotined in the Revolution. > For Italians Bari is a town in Apulia. > Etc. Etc. > People's names can have a multitude of origins and it seems better to > let sleeping dogs lie. > Digging up the dead is the last resort of the desperate. > Malcolm. > >> On 14 Jun 2014, at 20:34, Susan Hedeen wrote: >> >> I really don't have an opinion on it; I see plus and minus from >> several >> points of view. On the one hand, what if genetic genealogy had >> nothing >> to do with this? Would the attitude be different? Suppose it was a >> bog >> body or an "under the car park body" rather than an identified grave? >> >> On the face of things one could say that disturbing the remains of a >> known individual could be creepy I guess. On the other hand for an >> environ in a region that seems consumed by history and historical >> claims >> regarding its past populations, the descending surnames, etc., it >> could >> be considered coming to grips with all the realities surrounding the >> considerations of that. >> >> One only needs to refer to the many debates regarding the "Niall and >> the >> Nine Hostages" linkage to IMH and then M222 to understand that in >> microcosm this may be a reflection of firming up the various claims >> and >> sorting quantifiable facts from unqualified speculation. >> >> Is it important? I don't know. >> >> We have many hundreds to thousands involved in genetic genealogy, more >> involved in genealogy, and more yet involved in the attempt to >> understand history and the place of our ancestral heritage and >> ourselves, all spending multiples of thousands of dollars and >> immeasurably more of investigative time in the quest to satisfy the >> questions. Just how important is that? In the broader scope will any >> of it alter this world as we know it? Bring a betterment in living to >> man kind? Stop the wars, the hate, and the ill will that exists among >> people? Will understanding our ancestors and from whence they came >> alter history as we know it and then promote the better within us? >> Tough questions that all come down to personal aspirations and >> interests >> and what they mean to us. >> >> I do understand your point of view as well as the other side. Susan >> >>> On 6/14/2014 2:31 PM, Malcolm McClure wrote: >>> Susan >>> Maybe it's just me, but I find taking this extreme intrest in >>> paternal genetics a bit creepy. The Scots have long been fascinated >>> by the resurrectionists but this must be a new departure for the >>> Irish. >>> Malcolm >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi All, I think the genetic testing of the Barry ancestor could be interesting, and I wish them the best of good luck with it. By paper trail my family traces back to 1775, and beyond that becomes a matter of guesswork. Doug On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 4:56 PM, McKee <ldm.127187@gmail.com> wrote: > Malcolm, > > I think Susan gave you the perfect answer to your question: > > Is it important? I don't know. > > We have many hundreds to thousands involved in genetic genealogy, more > involved in genealogy, and more yet involved in the attempt to > understand history and the place of our ancestral heritage and > ourselves, all spending multiples of thousands of dollars and > immeasurably more of investigative time in the quest to satisfy the > questions. Just how important is that? In the broader scope will any > of it alter this world as we know it? Bring a betterment in living to > man kind? Stop the wars, the hate, and the ill will that exists among > people? Will understanding our ancestors and from whence they came > alter history as we know it and then promote the better within us? > Tough questions that all come down to personal aspirations and interests > and what they mean to us. > > =============================== > > As we cannot possibly resolve the problems of the world, we might as well > work at genetic genealogy and follow all the various avenues where that > leads us as we discover the past and, hopefully, create a better future > from the knowledge thereof. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Gotta add my bit! I reckon gravity isn't a theory - it's a natural phenomenon. THEORIES of gravity are theories. e.g. Einstein's theory of general relativity is a theory and Newton's theory is a theory. Ta - sorry - i'll go back into my hole now. Geoff -----Original Message----- From: Susan Hedeen Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 2:59 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] On the use of the word "Theory" Well, at the risk of contributing to a quasi non relevant discussion (that perhaps we should let die of a natural causes), you both are correct from the context of subject dealt with. In genetic genealogy there are a lot of theories, and genetic genealogy, although dependent on the science aspect in terms of the Y, mt, and at DNA's, in itself is not by its very nature a pure scientific discipline. It is married to a rather unscientific discipline, genealogy, albeit, that some attempt to apply the scientific method to; but defies the rigors of it. With all theory there are uncertainties; and some theories go unchallenged for lack of enough concrete evidence and/or considerable contradictory evidence by which to prove a theory "wrong". Walter, you are correct, there is no proving theory in the strictest sense; however there are better arguments than others, and sloppy and manipulated foundations for drawing conclusions does not equate with sound conclusions. Some to many go unchallenged, are simply ignored, or there is no debate as they are dismissed out-right. Others, however, titillate the emotion of the public that doesn't consider, in many cases, fact from fiction, pick up on them and run because someone said so. :-D For the greater part, those of us in this hobby as accomplished as some are, yet are the public; and those who haven't made up their minds running with the theories are still trying to figure out their own. Susan On 6/14/2014 12:31 AM, Walter J Freeman wrote: On 6/13/2014 12:01 AM, tuulen wrote: > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Malcolm, I think Susan gave you the perfect answer to your question: Is it important? I don't know. We have many hundreds to thousands involved in genetic genealogy, more involved in genealogy, and more yet involved in the attempt to understand history and the place of our ancestral heritage and ourselves, all spending multiples of thousands of dollars and immeasurably more of investigative time in the quest to satisfy the questions. Just how important is that? In the broader scope will any of it alter this world as we know it? Bring a betterment in living to man kind? Stop the wars, the hate, and the ill will that exists among people? Will understanding our ancestors and from whence they came alter history as we know it and then promote the better within us? Tough questions that all come down to personal aspirations and interests and what they mean to us. =============================== As we cannot possibly resolve the problems of the world, we might as well work at genetic genealogy and follow all the various avenues where that leads us as we discover the past and, hopefully, create a better future from the knowledge thereof.

I really don't have an opinion on it; I see plus and minus from several points of view. On the one hand, what if genetic genealogy had nothing to do with this? Would the attitude be different? Suppose it was a bog body or an "under the car park body" rather than an identified grave? On the face of things one could say that disturbing the remains of a known individual could be creepy I guess. On the other hand for an environ in a region that seems consumed by history and historical claims regarding its past populations, the descending surnames, etc., it could be considered coming to grips with all the realities surrounding the considerations of that. One only needs to refer to the many debates regarding the "Niall and the Nine Hostages" linkage to IMH and then M222 to understand that in microcosm this may be a reflection of firming up the various claims and sorting quantifiable facts from unqualified speculation. Is it important? I don't know. We have many hundreds to thousands involved in genetic genealogy, more involved in genealogy, and more yet involved in the attempt to understand history and the place of our ancestral heritage and ourselves, all spending multiples of thousands of dollars and immeasurably more of investigative time in the quest to satisfy the questions. Just how important is that? In the broader scope will any of it alter this world as we know it? Bring a betterment in living to man kind? Stop the wars, the hate, and the ill will that exists among people? Will understanding our ancestors and from whence they came alter history as we know it and then promote the better within us? Tough questions that all come down to personal aspirations and interests and what they mean to us. I do understand your point of view as well as the other side. Susan On 6/14/2014 2:31 PM, Malcolm McClure wrote: > Susan > Maybe it's just me, but I find taking this extreme intrest in paternal genetics a bit creepy. The Scots have long been fascinated by the resurrectionists but this must be a new departure for the Irish. > Malcolm > >

Working on the project excel just now and found 115251 with the assignment of R-F3952. Matches 235771 for 34/37. Matches 171920 who is DF97 positive 33/37. I found no record on the 115251 for testing this SNP at FTDNA so must be otherwise ;-) but this assignment of the new SNP on the project excel is perhaps a first of this nature by FTDNA without the member having ordered and tested. Hopefully, a good sign of great things to come. Apologies for not mentioning surnames (as I very much prefer to do) as I don't want to be singled out at Houston again. It's someone else's turn. ;-) Linda

A quote from the approach: > > The principal objective of the Barrymore Project is to illuminate the > origins and evolution of the Barry family, a prominent > Anglo-Norman-Irish dynasty. To accomplish this, an effort is under > way to conduct DNA testing of the remains of Richard Barry, 6th Earl > of Barrymore, interred at Castlelyons > <http://www.castlelyonsparish.com/history/churches-graveyards/castlelyons-graveyard/> in > County Cork. > > The first step will be a detailed examination by forensic > anthropologists of the several remains in the mausoleum. The initial > goal will be to identify the biological sex, age-at-death and > distinguishing physical characteristics of the individuals interred > there, and to confirm that one set of remains is consistent with > historical information about Richard Barry. Radio-carbon dating will > also be employed to estimate the age of the remains. We will also > document any salient points regarding the conditions of the remains > and any light that can shed on his medical and personal history. > > Once the remains have been confirmed as those of Richard two samples > will be taken for DNA analysis. The selection of the samples will be > made at the time of examination, but teeth and the femur are two areas > that have been identified as potential loci. > > The samples will be packaged securely, preserved, and shipped to two > laboratories, one at University College Dublin and the second at Gene > by Gene in Houston, Texas, USA. There the samples will be prepared > for testing, and extraction of DNA will be undertaken. If DNA can be > successfully isolated, the analysis can begin. > > While there is some passing interest in autosomal and mitochondrial > DNA results, the principal focus is on paternal (YDNA) testing, since > the male sex chromosome and the surname are passed down in tandem in > Ireland. There are two types of desired results: > > * Short tandem repeat (STR) testing, which can provide data for > comparing the results of this project with test results of other > men with the Barry surname and for estimating the time to most > recent common ancestor (TMRCA). > * Single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) testing, to assist in > identifying the haplogroups (deep ancestry) of the individual > whose remains are in the mausoleum, as well as his relationship to > the other groups of Barry men for whom comparable results are > available. > > The optimal result of the first test would be to obtain values for the > 37 STR markers used in the YDNA test provided by Family TreeDNA > <https://www.familytreedna.com/y-dna-compare.aspx>, a subsidiary of > Gene by Gene that specializes in DNA testing for genealogy.Most of the > 65 sets of results available for Barry men > <https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/44452288/Updated%20Report%20on%20Barry%20YDNA%20Project%2017%20Mar%201014.docx> > are from this test, and the others are easily converted to that format. > > The Barry men who have tested fall into three major haplogroups, E, R > and I and into several subclades (subgroups), defined by specific SNPS > within those haplogroups. The SNPS of greatest interest are: > > E1b-M35.1 > > I-L22 > > I-M253 > > I2-L161 > > R1b-U106 > > R1b-Z49 > > R1b-L21. > > If the remains test positive for L21, then an attempt should be made > to test for several L-21 subclades, specifically DF41_N, L159.2, L193, > L643, L1066, *M222*, L144 and L195. It may be possible to narrow down > the number of subclades if enough STR values are available to estimate > the more likely ones. > > If the optimal levels of STR and SNP testing are not possible, some > important conclusions could be drawn from less detailed results.For > example, if results for the first 12 STR markers were available, the > individual's major haplogroup could be estimated with a fair degree of > confidence using available haplotype calculators.Also, modal haplotype > for the various groups of Barry men who have tested are available for > comparison.The number of markers in these haplotypes is generally 37, > although some have as many as 111 markers, which would permit > comparison with STRs other than those in the 37-marker test. If the > lower level SNP tests are not possible, but some of the SNPS upstream > of those listed above could be evaluated, then the major haplogroups > and possibly some subclades could be identified. > > If these tests are successful, the results will be compared with those > of other Barry men to determine their paternal relationships and > documented in online reports and an article for peer review and > publication. > On 6/14/2014 12:37 PM, Susan Hedeen wrote: > This article should interest folks. This is the marriage of the > scientific and genetic genealogy aspects we all aspire to in the quest > to sort out who may be be who and from whom they descend. > https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/home > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thank you, Bob. Susan On 6/14/2014 12:12 PM, Robert Doherty wrote: > I just mailed back my test kit for FGC8739 to YSEQ. > > Bob Doherty > FTDNA Doherty Surname Group co-administrator > FTDNA kit 29142 (MDKA James W Dogherty on Iain's M222 Chart) > > Sent from my iPad > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >