In a message dated 5/14/2011 11:54:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: However it could be from a Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill source. That door is still open. Yet I'm not sure DNA samples prove that. More on that later.] I look forward to that. Don't hold your breath. Haven't we already had that discussion multiple times? You know what the results show as well as I do. They are inconclusive at best. I doubt anything has changed since we last trolled the databases. I found another aspect of the new transcription interesting. Why aren't the MacSweeneys included? Sure they settled in Ireland but some may still have been in Argyll at about 1400 AD. I thought they might turn up as something Skene missed but no. I'm now, thanks to the new transcription, almost positive these Anradan pedigrees originated in Scotland and initially only included the Lamonts, Maclachlans, McEwans of Otter and the McSorleys of Moneydrain. I see no reason for the exclusion of the MacSweeneys from this material except that they may not have been a valid member of the so called kindred. When they settled in Ireland the Irish scribes borrowed part of their new pedigree from the O'Neills from a Scottish source. Probably because they knew they came from the same general area of Scotland. So far no one has made an attempt to describe what Maclachlan of Argylllshire DNA looks like. Even if we take into account the inevitable NPEs, surname changes and everything else that can be found in the typical Scottish surname cluster there should still be a line of the chieftains that is clearly related. Even a cursory inspection of the Maclachlan genealogical material shows there were many historical lines in descent from the known chieftains. These should show up as a related cluster at some point. Yet none has for the Scottish Maclachlans. As admin. of the McLaughlin surname project I've been looking for a Scottish cluster for years. And despite my well known views on the Anradan kindred pedigree I am willing to let the chips fall where they may in DNA. What we have in the McLaughlin project is one large group of M222 McLaughlins, quite a few of which can trace their descent to Donegal, Tryone or Londonderry, the three counties in which descendants of the old MacLochlainn of Tirconnell sept of Derry are still found today. My own is the most detailed by far. We know our ancestors came from the townland of Rathdonnell in Kilmacrenan barony not far from the city of Letterkenny. The earliest known ancestor of this family was probably born in about 1790. There are no records prior to the Tithe Applotment books that can be found. In addition to this large cluster we have a group of M222 McLaughlins and variant forms. There are eleven of these. They do not form a large related cluster but small clusters of at best two or three possibly related samples. Two samples give Scotland as place of origin. A few say Ireland. The rest are unknown or give states in the U.S. Two Laughlin samples give Tyrone and Ulster but are probably Scottish (according to them). Then we have a lot of basic R1b. Several match the Leinster modal. One possible group of three is U106/S21 based on one SNP test. A large group are I haplogroup but of different flavors. It's not clear how many of these actually match each other. Another one has recently been found to be L144. One is J2 haplogroup. A lot remain ungrouped because they match no one else in the project. We have no more than a few R1b haplotypes (non M222) that can be considered a valid cluster. There is nothing in this collection of DNA haplotypes one can point to as possibly representing the line of the old chieftains of the Maclachlans of Argyllshire. If any one can find one let me know. I'd be happy to hear about it. The Maclachlan component of the Anradan kindred has been ignored far too long. John

There are a few other points worth noting on the new transcription. For the first time, the last line of the first paragraph of the Maclachlan pedigree can be put into context. son of Anradhan in whom come together the progenies of Niall of the Nine Hostages This line made no sense pin terms of Skene's original transcription of the Anradan line ending in a Nialgusa which appeared to tie in with the Colla Uais pedigree of the McDonalds. That would not make them in any way descendants of Nial. Descendants of Conn perhaps. But it's still a pretty vague reference since as far as I can tell the new version of the pedigree does not match up with any known Ui Neill line. But then we might recall that the Maclachlans have always claimed to be descendants of Nial, even prior to the discovery of this manuscript. So did the Lamonts and MacNeills. Buchanan of Auchmar 1723 "The surname of McLauchlan hath been of a long time reputed one of our ancient clans, being originally descended of the surname of the O Lauchlans of Ireland, the principal person of whom, according to Mr. Walsh, and other Irish historians, was in the second century of the Christian epoch, provincial King of the province of Meath, which dignity his successors enjoyed for many descents, till some little time before the English conquest, the family of O'Rourke obtained that principality. This surname is asserted to be of the Milesian stem, or that of the ancient kings of Ireland, and the progenitor thereof to have come to Scotland with the first who from Ireland planted Argyle-shire." The Surname of Lamond is asserted to be descended of Lamond Oneil, a son of the Great Oneil, provincial King of North Ulster. This Surname of M'Neil being one of the most ancient of our Scotish Clans, originally descended from that once potent and flourishing Surname of the Oneils of Ireland." Keite, and other Irish Historians, derive the Origine of the Oneils from Neil, Son to Mileius, King of Gallicia in Spain, who with Hiber, Erimon , and Ir, his Three Brethren, came with the First Gathelians, or Scots, who by Conquest of Etta, Ketur, and Tectius, Kings of the Dedannins, the ancient Inhabitants of that Kingdom, obtained the Soveraign Possession of the fame. The M'Neils of Scotland, a Branch of those of Ireland, are reported to have come here with the First Scots, who from Ireland planted Argyle-Shire, and the Western Isles Keite is actually Keating and the reference is to his history of Ireland. I've posted on thjs topic several times to no response so I'll be brief here. Keating has two invasions of Scotland from Ireland. In the second the famous Fergus Mor, Angus and Loarn are said to be brothers of Muirchertach Mac Earcae, the high king of Ireland and a descendant of Nial. By this reading the entire Dal Riata of Scotland are descendants of Nial. So what does the line in the Maclachlan pedigree really mean? John

In a message dated 5/15/2011 3:36:56 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ikennedy_msdn2@hotmail.com writes: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/dna-r1b1c7/2011-04/1302257776 ahem!! Iain So you discovered it first and none of us realized what the link referred to. John

Here are the other (untranscribed) Genealogical tracts held by National Library of Scotland: Adv.MS.72.1.6 GENEALOGIES http://www.isos.dias.ie/master.html?http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLS/NLS_Adv_MS_72_1_6/english/index.html?ref=?ref=http://www.google.com/search?q=Adv.MS.72.1.6&rls=com.microsoft:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=1I7ADSA_en Adv.MS.72.1.9 MACDOUGALL GENEALOGY http://www.isos.dias.ie/master.html?http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLS/NLS_Adv_MS_72_1_9/english/catalogue.html?ref=?ref=http://www.google.com/search?q=Adv.MS.72.1.9&rls=com.microsoft:*&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=1I7ADSA_en

>From: Lochlan@aol.com > Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:42:48 -0400 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription > > In a message dated 5/14/2011 6:51:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: > A new transcriptions of MS 1450 has been posted on the web and the Lamont > are now descended from a Abbot of Iona: > _http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/kindred%2021.html_ (http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/kindred%2021.html) > > > Bernard made a pretty amazing find today. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/dna-r1b1c7/2011-04/1302257776 ahem!! Iain

Bernard, Great find. I wonder whether Gille Dubh wasn't the ancestor of the Orcanus that James Lamont referred to in 1661? Further thoughts : Duinnshleibhe son of Buirce. I still think Buirce (Boircce) is a good nickname for a large dark man. Questions for Paul Conroy : Could it make sense for Gille Dubh to evolve into Duinnshleibhe? Could Duinnshleibhe become M'Duyne, O'Duibhe and other variations? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 15 May 2011 00:49 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription A new transcriptions of MS 1450 has been posted on the web and the Lamont are now descended from a Abbot of Iona: http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/kindred%2021.html http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/01a%20navigation.html R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[However it could be from a Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill source. That door is still open. Yet I'm not sure DNA samples prove that. More on that later.] I look forward to that. I'm awaiting DNA results for someone with a rock-solid pedigree that goes back to the birth in 1710 of a McPhadrick Lamont from Coustoun. The testee is (I suspect) my 1st cousin 5 times removed. The results will no doubt confirm or contradict that. But hey, what a great find. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 15 May 2011 02:43 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription In a message dated 5/14/2011 6:51:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: A new transcriptions of MS 1450 has been posted on the web and the Lamont are now descended from a Abbot of Iona: _http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/kindred%2021.html_ (http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/kindred%2021.html) Bernard made a pretty amazing find today. A new transcription of the MS. 1467 first translated by Skene. It's now clear Skene made a lot of transcription errors. I can't resist saying this after all the grief I've taken in the last 10 years from certain quarters but the Anradan kindred will now have to charge off after a new descent which is definitely not from the O'Neills of Ireland. As Bernard reported the earliest figure in the pedigree is an Abbot of Iona named neill guirm or the black-haired Niall. However it could be from a Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill source. That door is still open. Yet I'm not sure DNA samples prove that. More on that later. Here's the pedigree: genelaigh cloinni ladmainn .i. Raiberd mac donnchaidh mhic eoin mhic gilla colaim mhic ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair mhic duinnsleibe mhic aed alainn .i. buirce mhic anradain mhic flaitbertaig mhic connstantin mhic muiredaigh ....?.... Mhic domnaill mhic gillacrist mhic murachaidh .i. gilladdub [this line is very uncertain] mhic neill guirm .i. ab ite The genealogy of the Clan Lamont i.e. Robert son of Duncan son of john son of Gille Colaim son of Ladhmann son of Gille Colaim or Archibald son of (?) the son of Fearchar son of Duinnshleibhe son of handsome Aodh i.e, Buirce son of Anradhan son of Flaithbertach son of Constantine son of .....?..... Muiredhach son of Donald son of Gille Criost (?) son of Murchadh (?) i.e., Gille Dubh (?) son of black-haired Niall i.e. the abbot of Iona. Whatever one might wish to make of this pedigree it's obvious it cannot be a pedigree of the O'Neills. The earliest known version is for the MacSweeneys (Ballymote and Lecan) both about 1400 AD. That may be right about the time this MS. was composed or a little earlier. In both Aodh Allainn (called Buirch) is a son of Anradan. However in the Ballymote and Lecan versions Anradan is a son of Aodh Athlaman. This is the crucial name tying it into the pedigree of the O'Neills. However in the Ms. 1467 Anradan is a son of a Flaithbertach who is son of Constantine. This is a complete break with the usual Anradan pedigree which includes a Flaithbertach an trostain, father of Aodh Athlaman. And needless to say there is no Constantine in O'Neill pedigree. It adds further names that are unidentifiable in the O'Neill pedigree (Gille criost, Gille dubh, and lastly, Nial guirm Abbot of Iona. It's amazing that Skene misread this so badly. I suppose the Nial guirm was his Nialgusa, which seemed to link up with the MacDonald line. Now we know it doesn't. Since the historical characters of the O'Neills are removed from the pedigree it becomes impossible to date unless the Nial guirm of the pedigree can be identified. I don't know the names of many Abbots of Iona. I know the O'Brollaghans were Abbots at the time of Somerled and later. They were Cenel Eoghain centered near Derry in Donegal. In case anyone is curious I know of four sons of Flaitbhertach an trostain. They appear in the Annals. The names are: Muirdach 1046 Domnall +1027 Aedh Athlaman +1033 Nial (B.502) Nial had a son Aodh.( B.502) As far as I know none of these men were associated with the monastery of Iona. But on the whole it does make perfect sense that some M222 could have come into Scotland through Iona and it's connections to NW Ireland in particular to the religious center of Derry. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bernard I guess I must get my good looks from handsome Aodh. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 15 May 2011 00:49 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription A new transcriptions of MS 1450 has been posted on the web and the Lamont are now descended from a Abbot of Iona: http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/kindred%2021.html http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/01a%20navigation.html R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A new transcriptions of MS 1450 has been posted on the web and the Lamont are now descended from a Abbot of Iona: http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/kindred%2021.html http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/01a%20navigation.html

In a message dated 5/14/2011 6:51:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: A new transcriptions of MS 1450 has been posted on the web and the Lamont are now descended from a Abbot of Iona: _http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/kindred%2021.html_ (http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/kindred%2021.html) Bernard made a pretty amazing find today. A new transcription of the MS. 1467 first translated by Skene. It's now clear Skene made a lot of transcription errors. I can't resist saying this after all the grief I've taken in the last 10 years from certain quarters but the Anradan kindred will now have to charge off after a new descent which is definitely not from the O'Neills of Ireland. As Bernard reported the earliest figure in the pedigree is an Abbot of Iona named neill guirm or the black-haired Niall. However it could be from a Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill source. That door is still open. Yet I'm not sure DNA samples prove that. More on that later. Here's the pedigree: genelaigh cloinni ladmainn .i. Raiberd mac donnchaidh mhic eoin mhic gilla colaim mhic ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair mhic duinnsleibe mhic aed alainn .i. buirce mhic anradain mhic flaitbertaig mhic connstantin mhic muiredaigh ....?.... Mhic domnaill mhic gillacrist mhic murachaidh .i. gilladdub [this line is very uncertain] mhic neill guirm .i. ab ite The genealogy of the Clan Lamont i.e. Robert son of Duncan son of john son of Gille Colaim son of Ladhmann son of Gille Colaim or Archibald son of (?) the son of Fearchar son of Duinnshleibhe son of handsome Aodh i.e, Buirce son of Anradhan son of Flaithbertach son of Constantine son of .....?..... Muiredhach son of Donald son of Gille Criost (?) son of Murchadh (?) i.e., Gille Dubh (?) son of black-haired Niall i.e. the abbot of Iona. Whatever one might wish to make of this pedigree it's obvious it cannot be a pedigree of the O'Neills. The earliest known version is for the MacSweeneys (Ballymote and Lecan) both about 1400 AD. That may be right about the time this MS. was composed or a little earlier. In both Aodh Allainn (called Buirch) is a son of Anradan. However in the Ballymote and Lecan versions Anradan is a son of Aodh Athlaman. This is the crucial name tying it into the pedigree of the O'Neills. However in the Ms. 1467 Anradan is a son of a Flaithbertach who is son of Constantine. This is a complete break with the usual Anradan pedigree which includes a Flaithbertach an trostain, father of Aodh Athlaman. And needless to say there is no Constantine in O'Neill pedigree. It adds further names that are unidentifiable in the O'Neill pedigree (Gille criost, Gille dubh, and lastly, Nial guirm Abbot of Iona. It's amazing that Skene misread this so badly. I suppose the Nial guirm was his Nialgusa, which seemed to link up with the MacDonald line. Now we know it doesn't. Since the historical characters of the O'Neills are removed from the pedigree it becomes impossible to date unless the Nial guirm of the pedigree can be identified. I don't know the names of many Abbots of Iona. I know the O'Brollaghans were Abbots at the time of Somerled and later. They were Cenel Eoghain centered near Derry in Donegal. In case anyone is curious I know of four sons of Flaitbhertach an trostain. They appear in the Annals. The names are: Muirdach 1046 Domnall +1027 Aedh Athlaman +1033 Nial (B.502) Nial had a son Aodh.( B.502) As far as I know none of these men were associated with the monastery of Iona. But on the whole it does make perfect sense that some M222 could have come into Scotland through Iona and it's connections to NW Ireland in particular to the religious center of Derry. John

Another 19th century book of mentions Colin Maol Maith-Good bald's death around 1105-7. References have been added (in 2001?) saying that this supported by the Red Book of Meneith (published by Fraser in 1880). Though I cannot read the charters shown in the google online version of Red Book of Meneith . "ARGYLSHIRE, A Contribution to Argylshire History, Being a Monograph Sketch of the SWEYNES OF SKIPNESS and the MACTAVISHES OF DUN-ARDRIGH, KNAPDALE, AND ELSEWHERE, their Ancestors, and descendants" By G. D. Mathews, D.D., L.L.D. CHAPTER 1 THE DALRIADS OF ARGYLL Colin MacDuine of Lochow, (Colin Maol Maith-Good bald Colin) the head of the Clan MacDuine, (through a marriage connection with which the family known as the Argyll Campbells became land owners in Argyllshire) enabled King Alexander the First, when disguised as a peasant, to escape from Dunstaffnage Castle1 during its siege in 1110 AD. Slain on the capture of the fortress, he had been married to a niece of the King, by whom he had one son, Gillespick. On her death he married (1105-1107 AD) a daughter of Sweyne2 of Skipinche or Skipness Castle3 in Northern Kyntyr 4, having by her two sons, Taus or Tavis and Iver. From the former of these the Clan MacTavish claims descent5 6 and from Iver- a Scandinavian and not a Celtic7 name, the Clan MacIver Campbell of Asknish in Glassarie claims descent.8 9 It is thus that J.F. Campbell in his "West Highland Tales" says: "The Clan MacTavish is a branch of the Clan Campbell"10 http://www.dunardry.net/research/mathews/Mathews_ch1.pdf Footnote: 2 SCBA, pg. 3 – The Red Book of Mentieth places Sween’s seat as Skipness Castle in Knapdale. If also mentions a daughter of this House marrying Colin MacDwine of Lochow in 1105, their son Tavish Corr being the founder of the Clan MacTavish. Rotuli Scotorum refers to Sween as “Thane of Argyll and Glasserie. The Red Book of Mentieth (Vol. I, p. 40) further states. …”during 1124 and 1153 A.D. the Earls of Mentieth had been appointed to have jurisdiction in Kyntyr and Cowall, up to that period, then, Knapdale belonged to the Sweynes.: (Acts, 1, p. 372) The red book of Menteith, Volume 1 by Sir William Fraser - scanned back to front http://books.google.com/books?id=ZlbOAAAAMAAJ&pg=PT155&lpg=PT155&dq=%22Red+Book+of+Menteith%22&source=bl&ots=1Utq7JG0dv&sig=dW3ymrWRFOTKM7u33Z-x7POwnTg&hl=en&ei=VqLNTfm2OoaSgQeZ45WtDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=false

I notice an important difference between that of Argyll Charter Chest and "An Accompt of Genealogie of the Campbells", when it comes to wives. "An Accompt of Genealogie of the Campbells" has: Gillecallum married to the heiress Lady Beochamps (sister to William of Normandy) and Dirvaill (daughter of Ebir, Lord of Carrick) His son Gillespick to Evah heiress of Paul O’Duibhne. The pedigree from the Argyll Charter Chest has: Gillecallum only married to Dirvaill (daughter of Ebir, Lord of Carrick). Gillespick to Anna daughter of Aulay oig and a daughter of Gouran (Gabhran). To my mind "An Accompt of Genealogie of the Campbells" is a more sensationalized in regard to wives. So I wonder (again) if "An Accompt of Genealogie of the Campbells" retains great accuracy. For what its worth here is a extact from "Account of the clan-Iver" by P.C. Campbell] by Peter Colin Campbell: http://books.google.com/books?id=rSYAAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA53&dq=Tavish+colin&hl=en&ei=FHrNTby4FZGtgQeo8omxDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Tavish%20colin&f=false Note 3. Page 4. The first is that*Buchanan of Auchmar [Brief Enquiry, p. 30-] who makes enf . Iver and his brother Tavish illegitimate sons of Colin of Lochow, styled Maol or the Bald. This Colin is said by some to have been killed at Dunstaffnage, (* There is a third Argyllshire family of which the Head was styled MDhonnachie— Campbell of Glenfeochan. This family may probably have sprung from the house of Lochawe, but the writer has not traced its descent with certainty.) while King Edgar, who died in 1107, was there; and by Buchanan himself he is married to a niece of Alexander I., or II., and made King's Lieutenant in Argyll—which could not be before 1221—while at the same time he is represented as great-great great-grandfather of Calain Mor, who was certainly killed in 1292! This descent, from Calain Maol, seems to have been the favourite theory of the Argyll Seannachies. It places the origin of the Clan-Iver in a period so very remote and obscure as to escape severe criticism. Its gross inconsistencies are, however, self evident. The second is that given in a genealogical table prefixed to his Life of Archibald Duke of Argyll and Greenwich, by Robert Campbell of Kirnin, who being himself of the race of Iver, and apparently desirous at once to retain the Campbell theory, and to get rid of the notion of illegitimacy, makes Iver and Tavish the sons of Archibald of Lochawe about 1360, " by a daughter of the Thane of Knapdale (Suaine Ruaidh), whom he afterwards repudiated." If anything were necessary to show theworthlessnessof a theory no where else mentioned, and the author of which evidently wishes (although he does not venture to say it) to convey to his readers an impression that his own family, Kirnan, were the heads of the Clan-Iver, it is enough to point out that it places the birth of Iver, the progenitor of the race, nearly seventy years later than the period, 1292. at which his descendants are now proved to have been already Barons in Argyll. The third account is that given by (or rather furnished to) Sir Robert Douglas, and which styles Iver the son of Duncan, Lord of Lochow, who, accord ing to the MS. history of the family [penet Macmillan of Dunmore] was son of Sir Archibald, or Gillespie, second son of Maleolm of Lochow, by the heiress of Beauchamp in France [a peculiar form ef the Beauchamp theory of the etymology of Campbell], who was a sister's daughter of William the Conqueror! A fourth genealogy, which deduces the House of Lochawe in an unbroken male line from Constantino the Great, through King Arthur, who is represented as Constantine's great-grandson, makes Iver and Tavish the sons of a Sir Duncan of Lochow, the nineteenth from Constantine, and the brother of Colin Maol! It is, in the present day, scarcely conceivable how men could commit such absurdities to writing.

In a message dated 5/13/2011 2:38:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: It is, in the present day, scarcely conceivable how men could commit such absurdities to writing. That's a pretty apt description of 17th century clan histories. Not just in Scotland either. The McSweeneys and O'Neills also dabble in the same genre. John

Would this be Colin mac Gillespig mac Colin Maol Maith (grandson of the neice of King Alexander) of "An Accompt of Genealogie of the Campbells". He is placed four generations (4x30 years, i.e. 120 years) before Colin Mor who died in 1296. The MacNeachtaiin descentants of Gilmory are said to be of Lochaber (in Genealogy and present state of ancient Scottish surnames). > This is the famous Hugh McDonald history of the MacDonalds written sometime > in the 17th century. In some ways it's similar to the "Ane Account" of > the Campbells. It's opens with young Somerled fighting off the Danes to > regain his lost patrimony. There is a mention of an Allin MacVich Allin > coming from Lochaber to attack Movern - from this Allin descend the family of > Lochiel. I don't know how that works out when compared to Campbell > chronology - not well perhaps since Somerled d. 1164. Hugh, as in the Ane Acount, > mentions a number of descents for other Scottish families. The authenticity > of most have been questioned by historians, especially his tale of the > MacIntyre origin. >

In a message dated 5/12/2011 7:49:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: Would this be Colin mac Gillespig mac Colin Maol Maith (grandson of the neice of King Alexander) of "An Accompt of Genealogie of the Campbells". He is placed four generations (4x30 years, i.e. 120 years) before Colin Mor who died in 1296. The MacNeachtaiin descentants of Gilmory are said to be of Lochaber (in Genealogy and present state of ancient Scottish surnames). I''m not sure which Colin it would be. In some old notes I show Colin Maol maith marrying the dau. of Swineruro of Castle Sween. There are a few dates for a Gillespic Campbell (1263, 66). But I'm not sure which ones they refer to in the history. There are a few dates for Dubhgall, son of Suibhne roe (1247, 61). And some for three grandchildren of Suibhe roe (1310). That would seem to place Colin Maol maith in time. But after the time of Somerled (d. 1164). But Hugh McDonald is not always reliable in his historical statements so it may not mean much. I have a few conjectured dates sent to me years ago by someone in the Clan Campbell. Paul 'an sparain' = Marian, daughter of Godred of Man. Conjectured dates (1130-1200)? I Eva or Eiffe = Gillespic O'Duine (from the Lennox?) Conjectured dates (1155-1225)? I Duncan O'Duine = Dervail dau of Dougall MacFiacher Conjectured dates (1180-1250)? I Dugald O'Duine 'cam beul' = Finuail nic Gillmorie Conjectured dates (1205-1275)? I Gillespic Cambel = Efferic of Carrick, daughter of Colin of Carrick (L.1260 & 1263) (grand-daughter of Duncan Earl of Carrick who d. 1250) ?(1230-1281)? I Sir Cailein Mor Cambel on Lochawe (succeeded his father circa. 1281, k. 1296) I Sir Neil Cambel = (1) (d. 1316) I Sir Colin Cambel of Lochawe "Since Sellar has identified Efferic, wife of Gillespic Cambel (on record in 1260 and 1263), as being the grand-daughter of Duncan Earl of Carrick who died in old age in 1250, there is a fair chance that Duncan O'Duine, said to have been grandson of Paul 'an sparain' and grandfather of the same Gillespic, died in the mid century also. Duncan O'Duine might therefore have lived from circa. 1180-1250. This would also agree with this Duncan O'Duine being noted in a charter of 1369 as progenitor of the family on Lochawe since he would have been alive in middle age in 1222 when Alexander II King of Scots came overland into Argyll and "took lands from some and gave it to others." (A. Duncan and A. Brown ‘Argyll and the Isles in the Earlier Middle Ages’ Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland (1956-57): 192-220) This suggests that if the O'Duine were granted lands or responsibilities on Lochawe it could well have been at that time. If the O'Duine came from the Lennox, the levies of the Earls of Lennox would almost certainly have been called up for the expedition into Argyll."

While using the digital archives to access the Campbell "Ane Account" in the highland papers I noticed another volume online that had some old clan histories. _http://www.archive.org/_ (http://www.archive.org/) You can find them by searching for highland papers. Volume 1 contains the history of the McDonalds. This is the famous Hugh McDonald history of the MacDonalds written sometime in the 17th century. In some ways it's similar to the "Ane Account" of the Campbells. It's opens with young Somerled fighting off the Danes to regain his lost patrimony. There is a mention of an Allin MacVich Allin coming from Lochaber to attack Movern - from this Allin descend the family of Lochiel. I don't know how that works out when compared to Campbell chronology - not well perhaps since Somerled d. 1164. Hugh, as in the Ane Acount, mentions a number of descents for other Scottish families. The authenticity of most have been questioned by historians, especially his tale of the MacIntyre origin. Also in Vol. 1 GENEALOGY OE THE MACRAS Vol. 2 THE GENEALOGIE OF THE SURNAME OF M'KENZIE SINCE THER COMING INTO SCOTLAND ANE ACCOMPT OF THE GENEALOGIE OF THE CAMPBELLS There are more volumes of the Highland Papers not contained in the digital archives. It's a limited series (I think I saw about five or six in a local library here), published by the SCOTTISH HISTORY SOCIETY. It seems .pdf copies might be your best shot. The text version uses OCR and screws up a lot of the text. John

I had skipped the entry above Giollaspic (in the MS c1607), namely for his father Gillecallum. I notice that Dirvaill father was Evir (Ivar?) Lord of Carrick and that Dirvaill is now named Dervant (it is Dirvaill in "An Accompt of Genealogie of the Campbells"). > From: bernardmorgan@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 20:57:12 +0000 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Scottish Surnames - Giollaspic > > > > > > That's pretty difficult to follow. You can follow part of it in "Ane > > Account" of the Campbells. The Account does not mention blind Arthur McGorrie > > but does mention the McNaughtans descending from the same person. Also the > > Drummonds and the Clan McUilins in Ireland, whom the clan Campbell think > > are the McQuillins of the Route in Antrim. Your version also adds the > > MacDougals of Carrick and the Lamonds. > > Just for clarification "An Accompt of Genealogie of the Campbells" has McNaughtans descending form Gilmory (Gilmorie) mac Gillecollum mac Arthur Armdhearg, where Gilmory is the son of Dirvail daughter of the Lord of Carrick. The manuscript found in the Duke of Argyll’s Charter Chest (c1607) tells that Ewan mac Giollaspic mac Gilleacolaim MacDuibne, is Lord of Carrick - “which by all appearance has been through his grandmother Dirvaill, daughter to Lord of Carrick” (does this language suggests the reasoning was being sourced from earlier records?). The "An Accompt of Genealogie of the Campbells" Giollaspic was the son of heiress Lady Beochamps of Normandy. However the c1607 manuscript from the Duke of Argyll’s Charter Chest (c1607) would suggest Giollaspic father's mother was Dirvail daughter of the Lord of Carrick, not the fanciful Lady Beochamps of Normandy. Could this be seen as evidence that c1607 manuscript is represents an authentic tradition? > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

David Ewing points out an error in my reply. I had not read carefully what I had written before I sent it, and I apologize. I totally agree with David's note, and thank him for pointing this out. - Bye from Bill Howard On May 12, 2011, at 11:24 AM, David Ewing wrote: > Bill Howard writes: "For another thing, there is no way to determine a > "modal" for a set of descendants because the progenitor's haplotype is > unknown and each line of descendancy suffers different mutations through > time." > > I am sure that Bill understands that this statement is literally false. One > can compute the modal of any list of numbers except when the frequency of > two or more of them on the list is "tied for first." I think what he > probably means is that good arguments can be made that once you have > calculated a modal for a list of putative descendants of Niall of the Nine > Hostages, you still don't know much. Bill has often pointed out that a group > modal does not necessarily the same as the haplotype of its common ancestor, > which is true. > > David Ewing >

Bill Howard writes: "For another thing, there is no way to determine a "modal" for a set of descendants because the progenitor's haplotype is unknown and each line of descendancy suffers different mutations through time." I am sure that Bill understands that this statement is literally false. One can compute the modal of any list of numbers except when the frequency of two or more of them on the list is "tied for first." I think what he probably means is that good arguments can be made that once you have calculated a modal for a list of putative descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages, you still don't know much. Bill has often pointed out that a group modal does not necessarily the same as the haplotype of its common ancestor, which is true. David Ewing -- Notice: This email is not secure, and is not for use by patients or for healthcare purposes in general.

Argathelia is Argyll (which means District of the Gaels) Athochlach is Atholl (which is said to mean New Ireland) Athagathla is puzzling The first name 'William' is most puzzle, I understand it arrive in England with Normans.