In a message dated 5/16/2011 4:56:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: I can't go by facts? I can't ask a question? That question was ably answered by Iain Kennedy. His answer complemented my own nicely. The fact that Nigellus means black in late Latin is irrelevant. That's why I said you can't go on that. It's just one name being substituted for another. One interesting example is the Irish Partholan and it's Latin equivalent, Bartholomus. <Can you give me a reference of Nigellus being so used? I don't dispute what you say, I just want to check my own searches. Read Iain Kennedy's response. I've seen the same thing myself but cannot give a specific reference off the top of my head. But I have seen the name used in Catholic parish records in Ireland as the Latin form of Neill. It's the same thing as using Jacobus for James. There are bigger fish to fry than this one. See my latest email. John

On 16 May 2011 17:55, Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> wrote: > > I can give you my reference if you want it. > > [There's a repeated thread of the use of 'black' in Lamont pedigrees and > naming. Gille Dubh is an example. Black itself is another. In 1661 a > 'blakboy' is said to have descended from Orcanus.] > My grandfather (from Wester Ross) was called Iain Dubh merely because he had black hair. Taking this use of "dubh" as a suggestion of African origin is an unfounded generalization. [snip] > And I repeat my question : Can Y-DNA be used to check ethnicity? > Your question confuses me; I think we all understand well that Y-DNA is only the male line. There are a number of Y haplogroups (e.g. A, B, R-V88) which are associated with sub-Saharan Africa. If you tested positive for one of those you could presume you had a male-line African ancestor, but that would be only one tiny piece of your heritage. Similarly, Professor Henry Louis Gates is an African-American who is M222+ (or at least a match for North-West Irish according to his STRs) because he had an Irishman as a male-line ancestor. If you defined ethnicity by Y-DNA he would be solely Irish, which is a ethnic characterization I don't believe he would agree with. In short, no, Y-DNA alone cannot be used either to establish or falsify claims of ethnicity. Steve

I've just had a few discussions with the authors of the new transcript of MS. 1467 and someone (I don't know who) pointed out that the last name in the Lamont pedigree may be Nial glundubh. The author admits the possibility, indeed, even likelihood, since the manuscript is notoriously difficult to read. I of course threw in my two cents worth and came up with a comparison of the two pedigrees as follows: Anradan---------------------------------------------Anradan Aedha athlamhain------------------------------- Flaithbertaigh an trostain--------------------Flaitbertag mc Constantine? Muircertaigh mhidhigh------------------------Muirdaigh Domhnaill arda macha -----------------------Domnaill mic Gillacrist Muircertaigh na ccocal ccroicenn--------Murachaidh ie Gilladubh Nial glundubh------------------------------------Nial guirm The only item possibly missing here is Aodh Athlaman who appears in all other versions of the pedigree including Ballymote and Lecan. The correct reading is still under investigation by the author and others but it appears the Nial guirm Abbot of Iona reference may be yet another bad reading. I tried reading the text myself and got nowhere with it. If anyone wants to take a stab at it themselves have at it. If this turns out to be correct (and I think it will be verified or at least agreed on shortly) then we are back to the same old Anradan kindred business of prior years (except I will lose one argument against it). That doesn't both me because there are many others. John

[So "Nial guirm" above is probably best translated as Swarthy Neill.] Thanks Paul. His son is given as Gille Dubh, which seems to fit. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: 16 May 2011 16:28 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Dating the Lamont Pedigree Sandy, You said: > Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. > It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it > of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names > between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by > the > Lamonts. In Gaelic, there are a number of words indicating darkness, as follows: Dun = Brown - pronounced DUN - usually referring to hair - found in Duncan aka Dun Ceann, brown head Dubh = Black - Pronounced DUV in Ireland and DU in Scotland, usually referring to hair - found in Dougall aka Dubh Gall, or Black Foreigner Gorm = Blue - pronounced GURM - usually referring to dark, sallow or swarthy skin, NOT hair - found in Fir Gorm aka Black Men (note Gaelic Fir is a cognate of Latin Vir = men) So "Nial guirm" above is probably best translated as Swarthy Neill. Cheers, Paul On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 4:04 AM, Sandy Paterson < equisand@equiformratings.com> wrote: > I made it 14 generations between Laumon and the black-haired Neil, which > would suggest that this Neil lived around 820 AD. I'll check. My problem > though is that I cannot find an Abbot of Iona by the name of Neil 200 years > either side of 820 AD. > > [Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. > It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it > of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names > between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by > the > Lamonts.] > > Yes, Neil was used by the McPhadrick Lamonts and probably other Lamonts > too. > > So Nigelli or Nigello is latin for Neil? So maybe I've been looking for the > wrong name and should look for Nigello instead amongst the Abbots of Iona.? > > > [And that would mean the first reliable name in the pedigree is Fearchar.] > > McKechnie took that view. He wasn't too fussed about any names prior to > Ferchar and listed the names merely out of a sense of being 'complete'. > > [It's curious no record appears of a Duinnshleibe or Anradan. They appear > just prior to Fearchar in the pedigree (alive in 1249). Or can someone > produce such a record? And of course the above records shows Nigelli of > Buyt > to be Ferchar's father, not Duinnshleibhe.] > > > I remember coming across a charter in the Lamont Papers that appears both > in > English and in Latin. The Latin version had the name Nigello in it. I'll > find it and check what the English name was. > > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com > Sent: 16 May 2011 01:08 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Dating the Lamont Pedigree > > There are a few Lamont records from Memorials of Argyllshire which might > help date the Lamont pedigree in the new transcription. > > First the pedigree: > > Raiberd mac donnchaidh mhic > eoin mhic gilla colaim mhic ladmainn > mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair > mhic duinnsleibe mhic aed alainn > > The Lamont book do doubt contains versions of the same sources. Maybe > even better ones. But this is what Memorials of Argyllshire has: > > In 1292, by an ordinance of King John Baliol we find T"ra Lochlani > MacKilcoli MacErewar > T"ra Eneg MacErewar T"ra .....Insula de Boot. That is, the lands of > Laumun, son of > Malcolm, son of Ferchar, the lands of Angus, son of Ferchar, the lands.... > Island ob Bute (Act. Parl. Scot., Vol. I.) > > Note: the author treats MacErewar as MacFearchar in his analysis. > > In a charter dated before 1249, granted by Angus filii Donaldi in terra mea > de Kentyr, > among the witnesses are Farchardo filio Nigelli de Buyt and Duncano fratre > suo. > > Also in 1292 Scots Act of Parliament > > We command and direct by these presents, that without any > delay whatever, you cause summons of warning be served of Sir > Angus son of Donald, Lawmund son of Ereghere, and Angus > son of Duncan, the son of Eregere. > > Lamont MacFearchar and Angus son of Duncan, the son of Fearchar. > > 1230 - 1246 > > Gifts to Kilinan, Kilmore and Kilmun. > > Duncan, son of Ferchar, and Laumun, son of Malcolm, > grandson of said Duncan...... > > I can't really do a genealogy chart in an email so I have to simplify it. > > Nigelli de Buyt 1249 > Ferchar 1249, 1292 > Malcolm 1230-1246 > Lauman 1230-1246 > > This seems to fit part of the pedigree. > > ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair > > These aren't death dates; just dates in sources or charters when the names > appear. > > Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. > It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it > of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names > between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by > the > Lamonts. > > The only record recorded when Fearchar was alive was in 1249. Old or > young? Who knows? But if you take that as a starting point and walk down > the > pedigree using 30 years as a generation you find something like this: > > neill guirm .i. ab ite 930 > murachaidh or gilladdub 960 > gillacrist 990 > domnaill 1010 > > missing name 1040 > muiredaigh 1070 > > connstantin 1100 > flaitbertaig 1130 > anradain 1160 > aed alainn (ie, Buirche) 1190 > Duinnshleibhe 1220 > Fearchar 1250 > > Being of the suspicious sort I think Nigelli de Buyt is probably the Nial > in this pedigree. Which would mean it's basically a fabrication. And > that > > would mean the first reliable name in the pedigree is Fearchar. If the > pedigree is a fabrication than what might that mean for the other families > also > linked to the same line prior to Fearchar, ie, Duinnshleibe and Anradan? > > It's curious no record appears of a Duinnshleibe or Anradan. They appear > just prior to Fearchar in the pedigree (alive in 1249). Or can someone > produce such a record? And of course the above records shows Nigelli of > Buyt > to be Ferchar's father, not Duinnshleibhe. > > > > John > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 5/16/2011 3:56:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Nigellus means blackish in late latin. There's a repeated thread of the use of 'black' in Lamont pedigrees and naming. Gille Dubh is an example. Black itself is another. In 1661 a 'blakboy' is said to have descended from Orcanus. It's so persistent that I have to ask the question : Can Y-DNA identify ethnicity? You can't go by that. Nigellus was used as the Latinized version of the Gaelic Neill or Niall. Or perhaps even the Scandinavian Njal. John

Thanks David. Given that Campbells were involved, I wonder if property doesn't come into it somehow. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of David Ewing Sent: 16 May 2011 15:58 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nigello Sandy asks what *cawellacion* means. I just pasted it into Google and turned up *cavillatioun*, where *cawellacion* is given as an alternate spelling: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F% 2Fwww.dsl.ac.uk%2Fgetent4.php%3Fplen%3D3210%26startset%3D6501528%26dtext%3Dd ost%26query%3DCavillatioun&rct=j&q=cawellacion&ei=ljnRTcnKO4aksQOI9eihCw&usg =AFQjCNE6I19wox4KGef09ax-eLFSJAjaLw&sig2=4YzvdCk-SjWuhn-y91375Q&cad=rja Is that it? Evidently, *cawellacion* is a sort of fraud. A second definition is given as *contention, quarreling*. David -- Notice: This email is not secure, and is not for use by patients or for healthcare purposes in general. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Many thanks Sandy and Paul ! Best, - Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Presswww.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 16, 2011 4:25:05 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription / Ó Duinnshléibhe Hi Jerry Don't thank me. Thank Paul Conroy, who pointed it out a day or 5 ago. You've probably (hopefully) been too busy studying to have noticed. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 16 May 2011 20:56 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription / Ó Duinnshléibhe Hi Sandy, Many thanks, and good catch! I forgot about the doo version. Also, up in Ulster, under Scottish influence as you point out, Dubh is usually pronounced as Doo (with a little w at the end, very hard to hear because stress is usually placed at the beginning of the word unless there's a vowel marked with an accent in a later syllable). R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Being of the suspicious sort I think Nigelli de Buyt is probably the Nial in this pedigree. Which would mean it's basically a fabrication. And that would mean the first reliable name in the pedigree is Fearchar. If the pedigree is a fabrication than what might that mean for the other families also linked to the same line prior to Fearchar, ie, Duinnshleibe and Anradan?] I make it 14 generations between Laumon and Neil the Abbot of Iona. Round about that time, the Abbot of Iona was St. Sleibine (752-767). Can you think of a way of checking whether Neil and St. Sleibine were the same person? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 16 May 2011 01:08 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Dating the Lamont Pedigree There are a few Lamont records from Memorials of Argyllshire which might help date the Lamont pedigree in the new transcription. First the pedigree: Raiberd mac donnchaidh mhic eoin mhic gilla colaim mhic ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair mhic duinnsleibe mhic aed alainn The Lamont book do doubt contains versions of the same sources. Maybe even better ones. But this is what Memorials of Argyllshire has: In 1292, by an ordinance of King John Baliol we find T"ra Lochlani MacKilcoli MacErewar T"ra Eneg MacErewar T"ra .....Insula de Boot. That is, the lands of Laumun, son of Malcolm, son of Ferchar, the lands of Angus, son of Ferchar, the lands.... Island ob Bute (Act. Parl. Scot., Vol. I.) Note: the author treats MacErewar as MacFearchar in his analysis. In a charter dated before 1249, granted by Angus filii Donaldi in terra mea de Kentyr, among the witnesses are Farchardo filio Nigelli de Buyt and Duncano fratre suo. Also in 1292 Scots Act of Parliament We command and direct by these presents, that without any delay whatever, you cause summons of warning be served of Sir Angus son of Donald, Lawmund son of Ereghere, and Angus son of Duncan, the son of Eregere. Lamont MacFearchar and Angus son of Duncan, the son of Fearchar. 1230 - 1246 Gifts to Kilinan, Kilmore and Kilmun. Duncan, son of Ferchar, and Laumun, son of Malcolm, grandson of said Duncan...... I can't really do a genealogy chart in an email so I have to simplify it. Nigelli de Buyt 1249 Ferchar 1249, 1292 Malcolm 1230-1246 Lauman 1230-1246 This seems to fit part of the pedigree. ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair These aren't death dates; just dates in sources or charters when the names appear. Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by the Lamonts. The only record recorded when Fearchar was alive was in 1249. Old or young? Who knows? But if you take that as a starting point and walk down the pedigree using 30 years as a generation you find something like this: neill guirm .i. ab ite 930 murachaidh or gilladdub 960 gillacrist 990 domnaill 1010 missing name 1040 muiredaigh 1070 connstantin 1100 flaitbertaig 1130 anradain 1160 aed alainn (ie, Buirche) 1190 Duinnshleibhe 1220 Fearchar 1250 Being of the suspicious sort I think Nigelli de Buyt is probably the Nial in this pedigree. Which would mean it's basically a fabrication. And that would mean the first reliable name in the pedigree is Fearchar. If the pedigree is a fabrication than what might that mean for the other families also linked to the same line prior to Fearchar, ie, Duinnshleibe and Anradan? It's curious no record appears of a Duinnshleibe or Anradan. They appear just prior to Fearchar in the pedigree (alive in 1249). Or can someone produce such a record? And of course the above records shows Nigelli of Buyt to be Ferchar's father, not Duinnshleibhe. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sandy, Many thanks, and good catch! I forgot about the doo version. Also, up in Ulster, under Scottish influence as you point out, Dubh is usually pronounced as Doo (with a little w at the end, very hard to hear because stress is usually placed at the beginning of the word unless there's a vowel marked with an accent in a later syllable). As you point out, the mh and bh surrounded or next to a broad vowel (a, o, u) are pronounced in some areas like a w and in other areas like a v. And in some areas, like Vw, (v combined with w), Vwah, a sound we don't have in English. So, as you point out, Si/obha/n can be pronounced as Sheewawn or Sheevawn, and even SheeVwawn. There are also some Duffys in Ireland - O/ Dubhthaigh, usually pronounced as O'Duffhee or O'Doowhee, and maybe even O'DuVwhee with that Vw sound. Good fun! Best, - Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Presswww.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 16, 2011 3:29:38 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription / Ó Duinnshléibhe It becomes even more confusing. Consider the words of what I think was a Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makeham song. "There was Johnny MacIldoo and McGee and me and a couple or two or three went on a spree one day We had a bob or two, which we knew how to blew and...(I forget) We visited McCann's, MacLeman's, Dirty Dan's ... then someone called the shop man a liar ... and we all fought and bled... So here we have an Irish song but one using the Scottish pronunciation of McIlDoo. Admittedly the Clancy Brothers lived in Canada, but still. But the Duff I can understand. Take Siobhan. It's pronounced Shivorn. So the 'bh' sounds like a 'v'. So Dubh in Irish Gaelic sounds like a 'v' or perhaps an 'f', whereas in Scotland 'bh' is silent. Dubh becomes Du or Doo. So I can see how Duffy comes about. Yet as far as I know, Duffy is Scots. More confusing is that the 'bh' in Bunnahabhain (of which I part-took in some quantity last evening), is pronounced like a 'v'. It's from Islay, Scotland. So generally, I try to absorb what the scholars say (and Jerry is definitely a scholar, and I mean this in the very best sense of the word), but I think my hair is greyer than his. Paul, on the other hand, probably has a grey hair or two. Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy Sent: 16 May 2011 19:59 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription / Ó Duinnshléibhe I am intrigued with Paul's comment that dubh is pronounced differently in Ireland and Scotland; I only know the 'doo' version. I have always wondered how it is that this word gave us both Dow and Duff as surnames (especially as I am descended from a Perthshire Dow family myself). I just rechecked my surname atlas and see that both peak in Perthshire. Iain R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sandy, Could it make sense for Gille Dubh to evolve into Duinnshleibhe? Gille Dubh=Servant or follower of a dark haired person, so I don't see how it could become Duinnshleibhe - unless that is, as already mentioned by others, that a later generation took a surname from a different personal or nickname. Could Duinnshleibhe become M'Duyne, O'Duibhe and other variations? Duinnshleibhte, is 2 parts, the second is related to Sliabh=Mountain, with Shleibhte=Of the Mountains. So Duinnshleibhte=either the Fort (Du/n) of the Mountains, or Duinn (personal name) of the Mountains. If it is the latter, then it could certainly become M'Duyne or O'Duinn and maybe O'Duibhe. BTW, there is a Laois name very similar, Ó Dubhuidhe, which is Anglicized as Deevy and sometimes as Devoy. It is one of the Seven Septs of Laois, whose origin is said to be Cruithin. Cheers, Paul On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 3:02 AM, Sandy Paterson < equisand@equiformratings.com> wrote: > Bernard, > > Great find. > > I wonder whether Gille Dubh wasn't the ancestor of the Orcanus that James > Lamont referred to in 1661? > > Further thoughts : > > Duinnshleibhe son of Buirce. I still think Buirce (Boircce) is a good > nickname for a large dark man. > > Questions for Paul Conroy : > > Could it make sense for Gille Dubh to evolve into Duinnshleibhe? > Could Duinnshleibhe become M'Duyne, O'Duibhe and other variations? > > > Sandy > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan > Sent: 15 May 2011 00:49 > To: dna-r1b1c7 > Subject: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription > > > > A new transcriptions of MS 1450 has been posted on the web and the Lamont > are now descended from a Abbot of Iona: > http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/kindred%2021.html > > http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/01a%20navigation.html > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

By area, I take it you mean geographical area? If so, I agree. There's no special significance except to the extent that there was probably something dark about them. Could be black hair, could be a relatively dark complexion, could be both. Cristin Finlay Lawmonson and Fynlo Ewynson are the same person and Robert Lawmonson and Cristin Finlay Lawmonson were cousins. So it's quite possible that they had a common descent from a Neil Lawmonson. I haven't found any Neil Lawmonsons yet, but I'll look again. Anyway, I can't find an Iona abbot named either Neil or Nigello or variants so this is quite interesting. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy Sent: 16 May 2011 10:40 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nigello I don't think there is any special signifance to the dubh patronyms in this area as these were common throughout Gaelic Scotland. In Perthshire it gave us the surname Dow and elsewhere it became Duff. Also there are two sets of names in entry no. 63 but they are not the same people. The identification of Nigello as Neil/Niall is fairly well recognised. Iain > From: equisand@equiformratings.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 09:56:20 +0100 > Subject: [R-M222] Nigello > > Nigellus means blackish in late latin. > > There's a repeated thread of the use of 'black' in Lamont pedigrees and > naming. Gille Dubh is an example. Black itself is another. In 1661 a > 'blakboy' is said to have descended from Orcanus. It's so persistent that I > have to ask the question : Can Y-DNA identify ethnicity? > > > Anyway, if you look at > > > http://www.archive.org/stream/scottishrecordso54scotuoft#page/n0/mode/2up > > > on page 13 there's a record of an indenture dated 1432. Featured are Robert, > lord of Inneryne, V of Lamont, son of Duncan IV of Lamont, a John Lawmanson, > a Fynlo Ewynson, a Gyllespic Angusson and others. > > Ardlawman is Ardlamont, near Tighnabruach in Cowal. > > Essentially, the same thing appears on pages 26-27 dated 1481, with some > Latin added at the end. Cristin Finlay Lawmanson in English seems to become > Nigello Fynlay Lawmanni in Latin. But John Lawmanson in English becomes > Nigello Johne Lawmanni in Latin. Neither seem to have been called Neil, yet > both become Nigello. Then there's a notary called Nigello Dewar who doesn't > appear in the 1432 version. > > I really don't know what all this means. Can any Latin scholar perhaps offer > an explanation? > > Oh, and there's a lovely expression used called 'fraud gyle and > cawellacion'. I'd enjoy knowing what cawellacion means. > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sandy, You said: > Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. > It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it > of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names > between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by > the > Lamonts. In Gaelic, there are a number of words indicating darkness, as follows: Dun = Brown - pronounced DUN - usually referring to hair - found in Duncan aka Dun Ceann, brown head Dubh = Black - Pronounced DUV in Ireland and DU in Scotland, usually referring to hair - found in Dougall aka Dubh Gall, or Black Foreigner Gorm = Blue - pronounced GURM - usually referring to dark, sallow or swarthy skin, NOT hair - found in Fir Gorm aka Black Men (note Gaelic Fir is a cognate of Latin Vir = men) So "Nial guirm" above is probably best translated as Swarthy Neill. Cheers, Paul On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 4:04 AM, Sandy Paterson < equisand@equiformratings.com> wrote: > I made it 14 generations between Laumon and the black-haired Neil, which > would suggest that this Neil lived around 820 AD. I'll check. My problem > though is that I cannot find an Abbot of Iona by the name of Neil 200 years > either side of 820 AD. > > [Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. > It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it > of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names > between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by > the > Lamonts.] > > Yes, Neil was used by the McPhadrick Lamonts and probably other Lamonts > too. > > So Nigelli or Nigello is latin for Neil? So maybe I've been looking for the > wrong name and should look for Nigello instead amongst the Abbots of Iona.? > > > [And that would mean the first reliable name in the pedigree is Fearchar.] > > McKechnie took that view. He wasn't too fussed about any names prior to > Ferchar and listed the names merely out of a sense of being 'complete'. > > [It's curious no record appears of a Duinnshleibe or Anradan. They appear > just prior to Fearchar in the pedigree (alive in 1249). Or can someone > produce such a record? And of course the above records shows Nigelli of > Buyt > to be Ferchar's father, not Duinnshleibhe.] > > > I remember coming across a charter in the Lamont Papers that appears both > in > English and in Latin. The Latin version had the name Nigello in it. I'll > find it and check what the English name was. > > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com > Sent: 16 May 2011 01:08 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: [R-M222] Dating the Lamont Pedigree > > There are a few Lamont records from Memorials of Argyllshire which might > help date the Lamont pedigree in the new transcription. > > First the pedigree: > > Raiberd mac donnchaidh mhic > eoin mhic gilla colaim mhic ladmainn > mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair > mhic duinnsleibe mhic aed alainn > > The Lamont book do doubt contains versions of the same sources. Maybe > even better ones. But this is what Memorials of Argyllshire has: > > In 1292, by an ordinance of King John Baliol we find T"ra Lochlani > MacKilcoli MacErewar > T"ra Eneg MacErewar T"ra .....Insula de Boot. That is, the lands of > Laumun, son of > Malcolm, son of Ferchar, the lands of Angus, son of Ferchar, the lands.... > Island ob Bute (Act. Parl. Scot., Vol. I.) > > Note: the author treats MacErewar as MacFearchar in his analysis. > > In a charter dated before 1249, granted by Angus filii Donaldi in terra mea > de Kentyr, > among the witnesses are Farchardo filio Nigelli de Buyt and Duncano fratre > suo. > > Also in 1292 Scots Act of Parliament > > We command and direct by these presents, that without any > delay whatever, you cause summons of warning be served of Sir > Angus son of Donald, Lawmund son of Ereghere, and Angus > son of Duncan, the son of Eregere. > > Lamont MacFearchar and Angus son of Duncan, the son of Fearchar. > > 1230 - 1246 > > Gifts to Kilinan, Kilmore and Kilmun. > > Duncan, son of Ferchar, and Laumun, son of Malcolm, > grandson of said Duncan...... > > I can't really do a genealogy chart in an email so I have to simplify it. > > Nigelli de Buyt 1249 > Ferchar 1249, 1292 > Malcolm 1230-1246 > Lauman 1230-1246 > > This seems to fit part of the pedigree. > > ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair > > These aren't death dates; just dates in sources or charters when the names > appear. > > Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. > It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it > of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names > between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by > the > Lamonts. > > The only record recorded when Fearchar was alive was in 1249. Old or > young? Who knows? But if you take that as a starting point and walk down > the > pedigree using 30 years as a generation you find something like this: > > neill guirm .i. ab ite 930 > murachaidh or gilladdub 960 > gillacrist 990 > domnaill 1010 > > missing name 1040 > muiredaigh 1070 > > connstantin 1100 > flaitbertaig 1130 > anradain 1160 > aed alainn (ie, Buirche) 1190 > Duinnshleibhe 1220 > Fearchar 1250 > > Being of the suspicious sort I think Nigelli de Buyt is probably the Nial > in this pedigree. Which would mean it's basically a fabrication. And > that > > would mean the first reliable name in the pedigree is Fearchar. If the > pedigree is a fabrication than what might that mean for the other families > also > linked to the same line prior to Fearchar, ie, Duinnshleibe and Anradan? > > It's curious no record appears of a Duinnshleibe or Anradan. They appear > just prior to Fearchar in the pedigree (alive in 1249). Or can someone > produce such a record? And of course the above records shows Nigelli of > Buyt > to be Ferchar's father, not Duinnshleibhe. > > > > John > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Nigellus means blackish in late latin. There's a repeated thread of the use of 'black' in Lamont pedigrees and naming. Gille Dubh is an example. Black itself is another. In 1661 a 'blakboy' is said to have descended from Orcanus. It's so persistent that I have to ask the question : Can Y-DNA identify ethnicity? Anyway, if you look at http://www.archive.org/stream/scottishrecordso54scotuoft#page/n0/mode/2up on page 13 there's a record of an indenture dated 1432. Featured are Robert, lord of Inneryne, V of Lamont, son of Duncan IV of Lamont, a John Lawmanson, a Fynlo Ewynson, a Gyllespic Angusson and others. Ardlawman is Ardlamont, near Tighnabruach in Cowal. Essentially, the same thing appears on pages 26-27 dated 1481, with some Latin added at the end. Cristin Finlay Lawmanson in English seems to become Nigello Fynlay Lawmanni in Latin. But John Lawmanson in English becomes Nigello Johne Lawmanni in Latin. Neither seem to have been called Neil, yet both become Nigello. Then there's a notary called Nigello Dewar who doesn't appear in the 1432 version. I really don't know what all this means. Can any Latin scholar perhaps offer an explanation? Oh, and there's a lovely expression used called 'fraud gyle and cawellacion'. I'd enjoy knowing what cawellacion means. Sandy

A chairde / Friends Gille Dubh ('servant of black-haired') would become Giolla Duibh in time and anglicized as Gilduff / Kilduff . It would not ordinarily become Dunnshliabh ('Brown Mountain', also spelled Donnsliabh) or Duinnshle/ibhe ('of Brown Mountain'). O/ Duinnshle/ibhe ('Grandson of Brown Mountain') is usually anglicized as O'Dunleavy, O'Dunlevy, Levy. The O/ Duinnshle/ibhe were the Kings of the Da/l Fiatach of the Ulaidh until beaten by John de Courcy ca. 1176. Having been dispossessed, they became hereditary physicans in order to maintain their honor price and nemed (holy/noble) status under Fe/ineachas ('Brehon Law'). Best, Jerry

I don't think there is any special signifance to the dubh patronyms in this area as these were common throughout Gaelic Scotland. In Perthshire it gave us the surname Dow and elsewhere it became Duff. Also there are two sets of names in entry no. 63 but they are not the same people. The identification of Nigello as Neil/Niall is fairly well recognised. Iain > From: equisand@equiformratings.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 09:56:20 +0100 > Subject: [R-M222] Nigello > > Nigellus means blackish in late latin. > > There's a repeated thread of the use of 'black' in Lamont pedigrees and > naming. Gille Dubh is an example. Black itself is another. In 1661 a > 'blakboy' is said to have descended from Orcanus. It's so persistent that I > have to ask the question : Can Y-DNA identify ethnicity? > > > Anyway, if you look at > > > http://www.archive.org/stream/scottishrecordso54scotuoft#page/n0/mode/2up > > > on page 13 there's a record of an indenture dated 1432. Featured are Robert, > lord of Inneryne, V of Lamont, son of Duncan IV of Lamont, a John Lawmanson, > a Fynlo Ewynson, a Gyllespic Angusson and others. > > Ardlawman is Ardlamont, near Tighnabruach in Cowal. > > Essentially, the same thing appears on pages 26-27 dated 1481, with some > Latin added at the end. Cristin Finlay Lawmanson in English seems to become > Nigello Fynlay Lawmanni in Latin. But John Lawmanson in English becomes > Nigello Johne Lawmanni in Latin. Neither seem to have been called Neil, yet > both become Nigello. Then there's a notary called Nigello Dewar who doesn't > appear in the 1432 version. > > I really don't know what all this means. Can any Latin scholar perhaps offer > an explanation? > > Oh, and there's a lovely expression used called 'fraud gyle and > cawellacion'. I'd enjoy knowing what cawellacion means. > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I made it 14 generations between Laumon and the black-haired Neil, which would suggest that this Neil lived around 820 AD. I'll check. My problem though is that I cannot find an Abbot of Iona by the name of Neil 200 years either side of 820 AD. [Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by the Lamonts.] Yes, Neil was used by the McPhadrick Lamonts and probably other Lamonts too. So Nigelli or Nigello is latin for Neil? So maybe I've been looking for the wrong name and should look for Nigello instead amongst the Abbots of Iona.? [And that would mean the first reliable name in the pedigree is Fearchar.] McKechnie took that view. He wasn't too fussed about any names prior to Ferchar and listed the names merely out of a sense of being 'complete'. [It's curious no record appears of a Duinnshleibe or Anradan. They appear just prior to Fearchar in the pedigree (alive in 1249). Or can someone produce such a record? And of course the above records shows Nigelli of Buyt to be Ferchar's father, not Duinnshleibhe.] I remember coming across a charter in the Lamont Papers that appears both in English and in Latin. The Latin version had the name Nigello in it. I'll find it and check what the English name was. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 16 May 2011 01:08 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Dating the Lamont Pedigree There are a few Lamont records from Memorials of Argyllshire which might help date the Lamont pedigree in the new transcription. First the pedigree: Raiberd mac donnchaidh mhic eoin mhic gilla colaim mhic ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair mhic duinnsleibe mhic aed alainn The Lamont book do doubt contains versions of the same sources. Maybe even better ones. But this is what Memorials of Argyllshire has: In 1292, by an ordinance of King John Baliol we find T"ra Lochlani MacKilcoli MacErewar T"ra Eneg MacErewar T"ra .....Insula de Boot. That is, the lands of Laumun, son of Malcolm, son of Ferchar, the lands of Angus, son of Ferchar, the lands.... Island ob Bute (Act. Parl. Scot., Vol. I.) Note: the author treats MacErewar as MacFearchar in his analysis. In a charter dated before 1249, granted by Angus filii Donaldi in terra mea de Kentyr, among the witnesses are Farchardo filio Nigelli de Buyt and Duncano fratre suo. Also in 1292 Scots Act of Parliament We command and direct by these presents, that without any delay whatever, you cause summons of warning be served of Sir Angus son of Donald, Lawmund son of Ereghere, and Angus son of Duncan, the son of Eregere. Lamont MacFearchar and Angus son of Duncan, the son of Fearchar. 1230 - 1246 Gifts to Kilinan, Kilmore and Kilmun. Duncan, son of Ferchar, and Laumun, son of Malcolm, grandson of said Duncan...... I can't really do a genealogy chart in an email so I have to simplify it. Nigelli de Buyt 1249 Ferchar 1249, 1292 Malcolm 1230-1246 Lauman 1230-1246 This seems to fit part of the pedigree. ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair These aren't death dates; just dates in sources or charters when the names appear. Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by the Lamonts. The only record recorded when Fearchar was alive was in 1249. Old or young? Who knows? But if you take that as a starting point and walk down the pedigree using 30 years as a generation you find something like this: neill guirm .i. ab ite 930 murachaidh or gilladdub 960 gillacrist 990 domnaill 1010 missing name 1040 muiredaigh 1070 connstantin 1100 flaitbertaig 1130 anradain 1160 aed alainn (ie, Buirche) 1190 Duinnshleibhe 1220 Fearchar 1250 Being of the suspicious sort I think Nigelli de Buyt is probably the Nial in this pedigree. Which would mean it's basically a fabrication. And that would mean the first reliable name in the pedigree is Fearchar. If the pedigree is a fabrication than what might that mean for the other families also linked to the same line prior to Fearchar, ie, Duinnshleibe and Anradan? It's curious no record appears of a Duinnshleibe or Anradan. They appear just prior to Fearchar in the pedigree (alive in 1249). Or can someone produce such a record? And of course the above records shows Nigelli of Buyt to be Ferchar's father, not Duinnshleibhe. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sandy asks what *cawellacion* means. I just pasted it into Google and turned up *cavillatioun*, where *cawellacion* is given as an alternate spelling: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dsl.ac.uk%2Fgetent4.php%3Fplen%3D3210%26startset%3D6501528%26dtext%3Ddost%26query%3DCavillatioun&rct=j&q=cawellacion&ei=ljnRTcnKO4aksQOI9eihCw&usg=AFQjCNE6I19wox4KGef09ax-eLFSJAjaLw&sig2=4YzvdCk-SjWuhn-y91375Q&cad=rja Is that it? Evidently, *cawellacion* is a sort of fraud. A second definition is given as *contention, quarreling*. David -- Notice: This email is not secure, and is not for use by patients or for healthcare purposes in general.

What I had planned for today took much less time than I thought it would so I have some time. [Don't hold your breath. Haven't we already had that discussion multiple times? You know what the results show as well as I do. They are inconclusive at best. I doubt anything has changed since we last trolled the databases.] A Lemmons has cropped up on the Lamont site with DNA fairly close to mine. Also, results are pending for a Lamont with a rock-solid pedigree showing descent from the McPhadrick Lamonts of Coustoun. It may be worth a re-visit once his results have come through. My belief is that the McPhadrick Lamonts are M222 but let's await the results. McKechnie suggested that they were descended from Duncan IV of Lamont. Donchad, I think, in MS1467. I stress 'suggested'. He points out that there is no record evidence to this effect, and bases his thinking on the fact that a Patrick Lawmonson, thought to have been the eponymous McPhadrick Lamont, had a coronership that he may have acquired through descent from Duncan IV. His suggestion was that Patrick Lawmonson may have been the son of a younger son of Duncan (meaning younger than Robert in MS1467), and that could be how Patrick Lawmonson became coroner. But as I've already said, there is no record evidence of this to my knowledge. [So far no one has made an attempt to describe what Maclachlan of Argylllshire DNA looks like. Even if we take into account the inevitable NPEs, surname changes and everything else that can be found in the typical Scottish surname cluster there should still be a line of the chieftains that is clearly related. Even a cursory inspection of the Maclachlan genealogical material shows there were many historical lines in descent from the known chieftains. These should show up as a related cluster at some point. Yet none has for the Scottish Maclachlans.] Barra McCain is digging quite deeply into record evidence. He found something in The Lamont Papers that I think has led him to believe that the Argyllshire McLauchlane chiefly line daughtered out in the late 15th century. It may be worth your while contacting him in this regard. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 16 May 2011 00:03 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription In a message dated 5/14/2011 11:54:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: However it could be from a Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill source. That door is still open. Yet I'm not sure DNA samples prove that. More on that later.] I look forward to that. Don't hold your breath. Haven't we already had that discussion multiple times? You know what the results show as well as I do. They are inconclusive at best. I doubt anything has changed since we last trolled the databases. I found another aspect of the new transcription interesting. Why aren't the MacSweeneys included? Sure they settled in Ireland but some may still have been in Argyll at about 1400 AD. I thought they might turn up as something Skene missed but no. I'm now, thanks to the new transcription, almost positive these Anradan pedigrees originated in Scotland and initially only included the Lamonts, Maclachlans, McEwans of Otter and the McSorleys of Moneydrain. I see no reason for the exclusion of the MacSweeneys from this material except that they may not have been a valid member of the so called kindred. When they settled in Ireland the Irish scribes borrowed part of their new pedigree from the O'Neills from a Scottish source. Probably because they knew they came from the same general area of Scotland. So far no one has made an attempt to describe what Maclachlan of Argylllshire DNA looks like. Even if we take into account the inevitable NPEs, surname changes and everything else that can be found in the typical Scottish surname cluster there should still be a line of the chieftains that is clearly related. Even a cursory inspection of the Maclachlan genealogical material shows there were many historical lines in descent from the known chieftains. These should show up as a related cluster at some point. Yet none has for the Scottish Maclachlans. As admin. of the McLaughlin surname project I've been looking for a Scottish cluster for years. And despite my well known views on the Anradan kindred pedigree I am willing to let the chips fall where they may in DNA. What we have in the McLaughlin project is one large group of M222 McLaughlins, quite a few of which can trace their descent to Donegal, Tryone or Londonderry, the three counties in which descendants of the old MacLochlainn of Tirconnell sept of Derry are still found today. My own is the most detailed by far. We know our ancestors came from the townland of Rathdonnell in Kilmacrenan barony not far from the city of Letterkenny. The earliest known ancestor of this family was probably born in about 1790. There are no records prior to the Tithe Applotment books that can be found. In addition to this large cluster we have a group of M222 McLaughlins and variant forms. There are eleven of these. They do not form a large related cluster but small clusters of at best two or three possibly related samples. Two samples give Scotland as place of origin. A few say Ireland. The rest are unknown or give states in the U.S. Two Laughlin samples give Tyrone and Ulster but are probably Scottish (according to them). Then we have a lot of basic R1b. Several match the Leinster modal. One possible group of three is U106/S21 based on one SNP test. A large group are I haplogroup but of different flavors. It's not clear how many of these actually match each other. Another one has recently been found to be L144. One is J2 haplogroup. A lot remain ungrouped because they match no one else in the project. We have no more than a few R1b haplotypes (non M222) that can be considered a valid cluster. There is nothing in this collection of DNA haplotypes one can point to as possibly representing the line of the old chieftains of the Maclachlans of Argyllshire. If any one can find one let me know. I'd be happy to hear about it. The Maclachlan component of the Anradan kindred has been ignored far too long. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[I found another aspect of the new transcription interesting. Why aren't the MacSweeneys included? Sure they settled in Ireland but some may still have been in Argyll at about 1400 AD. I thought they might turn up as something Skene missed but no.] When was Castle Suibhne besieged? That should give us a date when the McSweens were definitely still in Argyllshire. Your posting warrants a much longer reply than this but I'm quite busy at the moment. More later, perhaps today, perhaps during the week. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 16 May 2011 00:03 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription In a message dated 5/14/2011 11:54:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: However it could be from a Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill source. That door is still open. Yet I'm not sure DNA samples prove that. More on that later.] I look forward to that. Don't hold your breath. Haven't we already had that discussion multiple times? You know what the results show as well as I do. They are inconclusive at best. I doubt anything has changed since we last trolled the databases. I found another aspect of the new transcription interesting. Why aren't the MacSweeneys included? Sure they settled in Ireland but some may still have been in Argyll at about 1400 AD. I thought they might turn up as something Skene missed but no. I'm now, thanks to the new transcription, almost positive these Anradan pedigrees originated in Scotland and initially only included the Lamonts, Maclachlans, McEwans of Otter and the McSorleys of Moneydrain. I see no reason for the exclusion of the MacSweeneys from this material except that they may not have been a valid member of the so called kindred. When they settled in Ireland the Irish scribes borrowed part of their new pedigree from the O'Neills from a Scottish source. Probably because they knew they came from the same general area of Scotland. So far no one has made an attempt to describe what Maclachlan of Argylllshire DNA looks like. Even if we take into account the inevitable NPEs, surname changes and everything else that can be found in the typical Scottish surname cluster there should still be a line of the chieftains that is clearly related. Even a cursory inspection of the Maclachlan genealogical material shows there were many historical lines in descent from the known chieftains. These should show up as a related cluster at some point. Yet none has for the Scottish Maclachlans. As admin. of the McLaughlin surname project I've been looking for a Scottish cluster for years. And despite my well known views on the Anradan kindred pedigree I am willing to let the chips fall where they may in DNA. What we have in the McLaughlin project is one large group of M222 McLaughlins, quite a few of which can trace their descent to Donegal, Tryone or Londonderry, the three counties in which descendants of the old MacLochlainn of Tirconnell sept of Derry are still found today. My own is the most detailed by far. We know our ancestors came from the townland of Rathdonnell in Kilmacrenan barony not far from the city of Letterkenny. The earliest known ancestor of this family was probably born in about 1790. There are no records prior to the Tithe Applotment books that can be found. In addition to this large cluster we have a group of M222 McLaughlins and variant forms. There are eleven of these. They do not form a large related cluster but small clusters of at best two or three possibly related samples. Two samples give Scotland as place of origin. A few say Ireland. The rest are unknown or give states in the U.S. Two Laughlin samples give Tyrone and Ulster but are probably Scottish (according to them). Then we have a lot of basic R1b. Several match the Leinster modal. One possible group of three is U106/S21 based on one SNP test. A large group are I haplogroup but of different flavors. It's not clear how many of these actually match each other. Another one has recently been found to be L144. One is J2 haplogroup. A lot remain ungrouped because they match no one else in the project. We have no more than a few R1b haplotypes (non M222) that can be considered a valid cluster. There is nothing in this collection of DNA haplotypes one can point to as possibly representing the line of the old chieftains of the Maclachlans of Argyllshire. If any one can find one let me know. I'd be happy to hear about it. The Maclachlan component of the Anradan kindred has been ignored far too long. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There are a few Lamont records from Memorials of Argyllshire which might help date the Lamont pedigree in the new transcription. First the pedigree: Raiberd mac donnchaidh mhic eoin mhic gilla colaim mhic ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair mhic duinnsleibe mhic aed alainn The Lamont book do doubt contains versions of the same sources. Maybe even better ones. But this is what Memorials of Argyllshire has: In 1292, by an ordinance of King John Baliol we find T"ra Lochlani MacKilcoli MacErewar T"ra Eneg MacErewar T"ra .....Insula de Boot. That is, the lands of Laumun, son of Malcolm, son of Ferchar, the lands of Angus, son of Ferchar, the lands.... Island ob Bute (Act. Parl. Scot., Vol. I.) Note: the author treats MacErewar as MacFearchar in his analysis. In a charter dated before 1249, granted by Angus filii Donaldi in terra mea de Kentyr, among the witnesses are Farchardo filio Nigelli de Buyt and Duncano fratre suo. Also in 1292 Scots Act of Parliament We command and direct by these presents, that without any delay whatever, you cause summons of warning be served of Sir Angus son of Donald, Lawmund son of Ereghere, and Angus son of Duncan, the son of Eregere. Lamont MacFearchar and Angus son of Duncan, the son of Fearchar. 1230 - 1246 Gifts to Kilinan, Kilmore and Kilmun. Duncan, son of Ferchar, and Laumun, son of Malcolm, grandson of said Duncan...... I can't really do a genealogy chart in an email so I have to simplify it. Nigelli de Buyt 1249 Ferchar 1249, 1292 Malcolm 1230-1246 Lauman 1230-1246 This seems to fit part of the pedigree. ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair These aren't death dates; just dates in sources or charters when the names appear. Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by the Lamonts. The only record recorded when Fearchar was alive was in 1249. Old or young? Who knows? But if you take that as a starting point and walk down the pedigree using 30 years as a generation you find something like this: neill guirm .i. ab ite 930 murachaidh or gilladdub 960 gillacrist 990 domnaill 1010 missing name 1040 muiredaigh 1070 connstantin 1100 flaitbertaig 1130 anradain 1160 aed alainn (ie, Buirche) 1190 Duinnshleibhe 1220 Fearchar 1250 Being of the suspicious sort I think Nigelli de Buyt is probably the Nial in this pedigree. Which would mean it's basically a fabrication. And that would mean the first reliable name in the pedigree is Fearchar. If the pedigree is a fabrication than what might that mean for the other families also linked to the same line prior to Fearchar, ie, Duinnshleibe and Anradan? It's curious no record appears of a Duinnshleibe or Anradan. They appear just prior to Fearchar in the pedigree (alive in 1249). Or can someone produce such a record? And of course the above records shows Nigelli of Buyt to be Ferchar's father, not Duinnshleibhe. John