Hi Sandy, Eremite = Hermit. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 12:54 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Iona - MacGuilaDuibh ancestors to the Lamonts? [U1164.2: Select members of the Community of Ia, namely, the arch-priest, Augustin and the lector (that is, Dubsidhe) and the Eremite, Mac Gilla-duib and the Head of the Celi-De, namely, Mac Forcellaigh and select members of the Community of Ia besides came on behalf of the successor of Colum-cille, namely, Flaithbertach Ua Brolchain's acceptance of the abbacy of Ia, by advice of Somharlidh and of the Men of Airthir-Gaedhel and of Insi-Gall; but the successor of Patrick and the king of Ireland, that is, Ua Lochlainn and the nobles of Cenel-Eogain prevented him.] So Ia is Iona. Augustin is the arch-priest Dubsidhe is the lector Mac Gilla-duib is the Eremite Mac Forcellaigh is the Head of the Celi-De Can you help with Eremite? To me this means that, totally independently of the new transcript of MS 1467, the Annals identify a Mac Gilla-duib with Iona and its inhabitants. There could of course have been more than one Gilla-duib. And of course this is in 1164, whereas Sir James spoke of Orcanus having lived around A.D. 900. So this means that Mac Gille Dubh would have to have become a patrynomic surname within two generations of Neill guirm. Were patronyms in use in Iona by then? If so, I'd say that Neill guarm the abbot must surely be a more likely candidate than Niall Glundubh for Lamont ancestry, which was my gut feeling anyway. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 17 May 2011 16:59 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] Iona - MacGuilaDuibh ancestors to the Lamonts? > "...Orcanus, Laird of Lamount, quha livet about the nyn hundredth zeir > of oure Lord." The 1661 charter begins by Sir James Lamont saying "John M'Gilligowie in Castletoune in the Brae of Mar, and Donald Mclzegowie servitour to Sir David Ogilvie, sone to the Earle of Airlie, and all the name of M'llzeguies, ar my trew native kindlie people and kinsmen" and that they descend from one of his predecessors who was called by the nickname "Gillidow". So the they are the MacGillidowie. MS1450 tells us of Murachaidh i gilladub, i.e. Muireachaidh nikcnamed Gilladubh, the son of Neill guirm abbot of Iona. Black - in his "Surnames of Scotland" under MacIldowie (MacGillaDuibh) tells of Macgilladubh the Hermit of Iona recorded in 1164. U1164.2: Select members of the Community of Ia, namely, the arch-priest, Augustin and the lector (that is, Dubsidhe) and the Eremite, Mac Gilla-duib and the Head of the Celi-De, namely, Mac Forcellaigh and select members of the Community of Ia besides came on behalf of the successor of Colum-cille, namely, Flaithbertach Ua Brolchain's acceptance of the abbacy of Ia, by advice of Somharlidh and of the Men of Airthir-Gaedhel and of Insi-Gall; but the successor of Patrick and the king of Ireland, that is, Ua Lochlainn and the nobles of Cenel-Eogain prevented him. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A chairde / Friends, As you know, celibacy was not a requirement of the early Church in Ireland and Scotland. Instead, it was a special mark of sanctity chosen by few. I can't find the exact reference at the moment, wish I could, but many monks had as many as 3 wives in honor of the Patriarchs. Around the 8-9th Centuries, the Irish church tried to convince the monks to keep it down to 1 wife, and got a lot of flak from the rank and file for defying Biblical tradition. Here is a related comment from the law text known as Bretha Crólige: There is dispute in Irish law as to which is more proper, whether many sexual unions or a single one: for the chosen people of God lived in plurality of unions. (Kelly, Fergus. A Guide to Early Irish Law. Dublin: Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1998. p. 71) This non-celibate tradition is reflected by some of our surnames, including: MacTaggart - Mac an tSagairt - Son of the Priest MacAnerny - Mac an Airchinnigh - Son of the Airchinneach ('Erenagh' in English) MacNabb - Mac an Abbadh - Son of the Abbot Monasteries were handed down within the hereditary 'erenagh' families, some of whom were royal. These families were expected to staff these institutions with their descendants. Choice of leadership and ownership was by Féineachas ('Brehon Law'), within the electable derbh-fhine ('true family' sharing common descent from a common great-grandfather). Ecclesiastics were called by both God and blood, so the Church was strong and constantly expanding, in contrast to what we see today. Examples of royal abbesses and abbots include St. Brighid, Abbess and Bishop of Cill Dara ('Kildare'). And, of course, Colm Cille. As you know, Colm Cille was of the righ-damhna or 'stuff of kings' of the Cinéal Chonaill, electable as their King at a time when the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill of the North, especially the Cinéal Chonaill and Cinéal nEoghain) were busy creating the High-Kingship of Ireland. Colm Cille remained celebate so his successors like Adamnán were close relatives of his, also royal, rather than direct descendants. Right up until the point that they were extinguished, the Columban daughter houses were typically staffed at the top with close relatives of Colm Cille. Many of these successors married and had children. Some of these in turn became comh-arba ('heirs' or 'successors') of Colm Cille. I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, marriage by priests, monks, and nuns was common right up until the imposition of English Common Law in 1603. At that point, the territories owned by the erenagh families and all properties owned by right of descent from married ecclesiastics were escheated to the English crown on the basis of 'bastardry' - no legitimate heir. Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry

O'Cainus There talk of a family called Siol O Cain, linked (for a reason not known to me) to Mormaer of Moray. Donald O'Ceann who appears in a charter as ancestor of the Munros Anlesa O'Kyan is the said ancestor to the Buchanans and MacMillans They reprent the Clans Roich (Munro) and Clan Gillenhaol (Macmillan) of Siol O'Cain (I find no modern works on the subject.) http://www.fionamsinclair.co.uk/genealogy/HighlandClans/Munro.htm "The first known of the race is said to have been a certain Donald O'Ceann, of the time of Macbeth. The patronymic O'Ceann, Skene, in his Highlanders of Scotland, ingeniously converts into O'Cathan, and so makes out that the race is a branch of the great Clan Chattan or Siol O'Cain. It seems much more likely, however, that the name Donald O'Ceann is simply what it says - Donald, son of the Chief. The same word is found in the name of the contemporary Malcolm III, who was known as Ceannmore or Canmore, "great Chief", by his Gaelic subjects. The Munroes are also known among the Highlanders as Clan Rothich or Roich. >From this Donald O''Ceann, its first possessor, the territory on the north side of Cromarty Firth came to be known as Fearran Donuill, or Donald's Country. Foulis, or Fowlis, the actual seat of the Chief from then till now, is a local and personal name common in Scotland. There are parishes of Fowlis-Easter and Fowlis-Wester in Perthshire, and a family of Fowlises or Foulises were the owners from whom the ancestor of Lord Linlithgow in the reign of Charles I acquired by marriage the valuable mining property of Leadhills in Lanarkshire. Hugh Munro of Foulis, who died in 1126, is believed to have been a son of George, son of Donald O'Ceann. His son Robert, who is reckoned to have been the second laird or baron of Foulis, took part in the wars of David I and Malcolm IV, and died in 1164. It was Robert's heir, Donald (died 1192) who built the old tower of Foulis, and Donald's successor, another Robert, married a daughter of the Earl of Sutherland. It was to George, son of this pair, that, according to Nisbet's Heraldry, William, Earl of Sutherland, in the reign of Alexander II granted a charter which runs, "carissimo et fidelissimo consanguineo, Georgio Munro de Foulls". On the introduction of the feudal system, however, the Munroes had secured their possessions by accepting charters, not from the Earls of Sutherland but from their more immediate neighbours, the Earls of Ross. One of these charters, about 1350, expressly states that the lands of Easter Fowlis had belonged to the Munroes in free possession from the time of Donald O'Ceann. The reddendo mentioned for the lands of Pitlundie was a pair of white gloves or three pennies if required. "

The Ua Brolcha/in descend from Suibhne Menn, King of Ireland in the 7th Century. Suibhne Menn was of the Cine/al Eoghain, not the Cine/al Chonaill. So here's an example of an exception to the typical Cine/al Chonaill succession in a Columban house. Odd, though, that Ua Brolcha/in's succession was opposed by his own Cine/al Eoghain. Would have thought they'd be delighted. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Presswww.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 12:54:12 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Iona - MacGuilaDuibh ancestors to the Lamonts? [U1164.2: Select members of the Community of Ia, namely, the arch-priest, Augustin and the lector (that is, Dubsidhe) and the Eremite, Mac Gilla-duib and the Head of the Celi-De, namely, Mac Forcellaigh and select members of the Community of Ia besides came on behalf of the successor of Colum-cille, namely, Flaithbertach Ua Brolchain's acceptance of the abbacy of Ia, by advice of Somharlidh and of the Men of Airthir-Gaedhel and of Insi-Gall; but the successor of Patrick and the king of Ireland, that is, Ua Lochlainn and the nobles of Cenel-Eogain prevented him.] So Ia is Iona. Augustin is the arch-priest Dubsidhe is the lector Mac Gilla-duib is the Eremite Mac Forcellaigh is the Head of the Celi-De Can you help with Eremite? To me this means that, totally independently of the new transcript of MS 1467, the Annals identify a Mac Gilla-duib with Iona and its inhabitants. There could of course have been more than one Gilla-duib. And of course this is in 1164, whereas Sir James spoke of Orcanus having lived around A.D. 900. So this means that Mac Gille Dubh would have to have become a patrynomic surname within two generations of Neill guirm. Were patronyms in use in Iona by then? If so, I'd say that Neill guarm the abbot must surely be a more likely candidate than Niall Glundubh for Lamont ancestry, which was my gut feeling anyway. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 17 May 2011 16:59 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] Iona - MacGuilaDuibh ancestors to the Lamonts? > "...Orcanus, Laird of Lamount, quha livet about the nyn hundredth > zeir of oure Lord." The 1661 charter begins by Sir James Lamont saying "John M'Gilligowie in Castletoune in the Brae of Mar, and Donald Mclzegowie servitour to Sir David Ogilvie, sone to the Earle of Airlie, and all the name of M'llzeguies, ar my trew native kindlie people and kinsmen" and that they descend from one of his predecessors who was called by the nickname "Gillidow". So the they are the MacGillidowie. MS1450 tells us of Murachaidh i gilladub, i.e. Muireachaidh nikcnamed Gilladubh, the son of Neill guirm abbot of Iona. Black - in his "Surnames of Scotland" under MacIldowie (MacGillaDuibh) tells of Macgilladubh the Hermit of Iona recorded in 1164. U1164.2: Select members of the Community of Ia, namely, the arch-priest, Augustin and the lector (that is, Dubsidhe) and the Eremite, Mac Gilla-duib and the Head of the Celi-De, namely, Mac Forcellaigh and select members of the Community of Ia besides came on behalf of the successor of Colum-cille, namely, Flaithbertach Ua Brolchain's acceptance of the abbacy of Ia, by advice of Somharlidh and of the Men of Airthir-Gaedhel and of Insi-Gall; but the successor of Patrick and the king of Ireland, that is, Ua Lochlainn and the nobles of Cenel-Eogain prevented him. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

However, Orcanus wasn't Orcanus. He was O'Cainus, misspelt by Sir James Lamont in 1661 (or perhaps mistranscribed by someone later). And given that 'Cain' means 'law', established by a combination of royal and ecclesiastical authority we now have to guess whether Nial Glundubh is a better candidate for Gille Dubh's father than a black-haired abbot. The one was royal (I think) and the other was ecclesiastical. My money is on the abbot but I await developments with great interest. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 17 May 2011 09:55 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nigello The pedigree in the new translation of MS 1467 is identical to that given by McKechnie on page 46 of 'The Lamont Clan, 1235-1935' except that he too has it leading back to Niall Glundubh. Here it is http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2733445/McK46.png If we take 13 generations at 30 years, with Ladmannh born before 1235 and having died before 1295 we get 1235-1295 minus 390 which gives 845-905. That makes Niall Glundubh plausible I guess. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Whoops. Meant to say "right up to the imposition of English Common Law in 1608," not 1603. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Presswww.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: "jerrykelly@att.net" <jerrykelly@att.net> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 1:06:18 PM Subject: [R-M222] abbots, abbesses, and heirs A chairde / Friends, As you know, celibacy was not a requirement of the early Church in Ireland and Scotland. Instead, it was a special mark of sanctity chosen by few. I can't find the exact reference at the moment, wish I could, but many monks had as many as 3 wives in honor of the Patriarchs. Around the 8-9th Centuries, the Irish church tried to convince the monks to keep it down to 1 wife, and got a lot of flak from the rank and file for defying Biblical tradition. Here is a related comment from the law text known as Bretha Crólige: There is dispute in Irish law as to which is more proper, whether many sexual unions or a single one: for the chosen people of God lived in plurality of unions. (Kelly, Fergus. A Guide to Early Irish Law. Dublin: Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1998. p. 71) This non-celibate tradition is reflected by some of our surnames, including: MacTaggart - Mac an tSagairt - Son of the Priest MacAnerny - Mac an Airchinnigh - Son of the Airchinneach ('Erenagh' in English) MacNabb - Mac an Abbadh - Son of the Abbot Monasteries were handed down within the hereditary 'erenagh' families, some of whom were royal. These families were expected to staff these institutions with their descendants. Choice of leadership and ownership was by Féineachas ('Brehon Law'), within the electable derbh-fhine ('true family' sharing common descent from a common great-grandfather). Ecclesiastics were called by both God and blood, so the Church was strong and constantly expanding, in contrast to what we see today. Examples of royal abbesses and abbots include St. Brighid, Abbess and Bishop of Cill Dara ('Kildare'). And, of course, Colm Cille. As you know, Colm Cille was of the righ-damhna or 'stuff of kings' of the Cinéal Chonaill, electable as their King at a time when the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill of the North, especially the Cinéal Chonaill and Cinéal nEoghain) were busy creating the High-Kingship of Ireland. Colm Cille remained celebate so his successors like Adamnán were close relatives of his, also royal, rather than direct descendants. Right up until the point that they were extinguished, the Columban daughter houses were typically staffed at the top with close relatives of Colm Cille. Many of these successors married and had children. Some of these in turn became comh-arba ('heirs' or 'successors') of Colm Cille. I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, marriage by priests, monks, and nuns was common right up until the imposition of English Common Law in 1603. At that point, the territories owned by the erenagh families and all properties owned by right of descent from married ecclesiastics were escheated to the English crown on the basis of 'bastardry' - no legitimate heir. Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The pedigree in the new translation of MS 1467 is identical to that given by McKechnie on page 46 of 'The Lamont Clan, 1235-1935' except that he too has it leading back to Niall Glundubh. Here it is http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2733445/McK46.png If we take 13 generations at 30 years, with Ladmannh born before 1235 and having died before 1295 we get 1235-1295 minus 390 which gives 845-905. That makes Niall Glundubh plausible I guess. Sandy

I've checked for abbots of Iona named Neil and found none (no Nigello's either). However, someone pointed out Sleibine A.D. 752-765. Here's the new transcript of MS 1467, starting with Laumon working back: Ladhmann Son of Gille Colaim (Archibald) Son of (?) Son of Fearchar Son of Duinnshleibhe Son of Aodh (Buirce) Son of Anradhain Son of Flaithbheartach Son of Constantine Son of ...?... Muireadhach Son of Donald Son of Gille Criost Son of Murchadh (Gille Dubh) Son of black-haired Niall, abbot of Iona There are 13 generations between Ladhmann and Niall, or possibly 14 if the Son of ...?... Muireadhach Represents 2 generations and not 1. Ladhmann was alive in 1235 and dead by 1296. Using 30 years per generation we get 14 x 30 = 420 years. If we use 35 years instead of 30, we get 490 years. 1235 - 14 x 30 = 815 1235 - 14 x 35 = 745 So 752-765 is a bit of a stretch, but not ridiculous. In searching for the past abbots of Iona, I came across a document housed on the Oxford Dictionary Biography site (I think that's what it's called). It gives a little information about Sleibine. He was called Sleibine mac Congaile. Other sources suggest he was Cenel Connail. This one may too, but I haven't read all of it. What I did find in the article though, is a reference to Cain Adomnain, the 'law of Adomnan'. Bells rang. Cain means Law. Laumon/Ladhmann/Lagman Cain/McCain/McCann/McKane An etymological link between Lamont and McCain? Surely not? But now look at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2733445/DYS446%3D15.csv These are the M222 haplotypes with DYD446=15 (the modal value is 13). There are 14 in all so far. Lamont and Paterson match 66/67. Both have DYD439=13 as do the Cains & variants (of which there are 4). And there are 2 Slavens present as well. One of them has DYS439=13, the other one doesn't. However, it seems that the mutation to 13 is recent, so we should treat that one as a spurious match. Still, Slavens is not far from Lamont/Paterson. Slavens=Sleibine? (or possibly a shortened version of the later Duinnshleibhe?) Lamont and Cain linked etymologically? Of course the flaw in this version is that it's difficult to figure out how Sleibine mac Congaile becomes black-haired Neill. Anyway, I need help with something. I know popes get to choose their own name when they become a pope. Does the same perhaps apply to abbots? I think Sleibine was a saint. Are saints always called by their given name, or are they sometimes re-named? Sandy

Yes. Argyll retour #14 Oct. 21 1613 Hector McNeill, haeres Nigelli McNeill de Thaynis, patris, in 20 solidatis terrarum antiqui extentus nuncupatis insula de Gyghay, cum decimis, in vicecomitatu de Tarbert. GD437/17 (MacNeill of Taynish and Campbell of Danna Titles) 1 Nov 1613 Precept of Clare Constat by Archibald Earl of Argyll Lord Campbell, Lorne and Kyntyre, as superior, directed to John McDougall of Raghray as his bailie to infeft Hector Mcneill as heir to his deceased father Neil Makneill of Thaynis, in the 2 merkland of [snip] ... in the Lordship of Ros Knapdall and sheriffdom of Tarbart. Iain > Can you give me a reference of Nigellus being so used? I don't dispute what > you say, I just want to check my own searches. >

[I did talk to Barra about some of his theories. He has a cluster in Argyllshire somewhere he has identified as descended from one of the known Maclachlan branches. The DNA in question is not M222. When I look for matches in our McLaughlin project I don't see any. I has to put the question on hold for the time being.] The sequence of events has come back to me. I knew Barra was working on what he calls primary source records. I remembered reading that a McLachlain chief in the late 15th century had no legitimate male issue but succession often went to a nephew in that case and the article that I read didn't rule out that possibility. So I asked Barra about it. He pointed out that a document in the Lamont Papers was evidence of a daughtering out. It was a document that gave names in the form A McB VcD VcE Laughlain was one of A,B,C or D. From this, Barra was able to conclude that a daughtering out had occurred. Even accepting this though, I think the possibility of a nephew succeeding is still there but I haven't discussed this with Barra. By 1704 there were still plenty prominent McLauchlains in Argyllshire, but of course if a full daughtering out had occurred, that wouldn't necessarily have affected the number of people bearing the McLauchlain surname. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 16 May 2011 23:30 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription In a message dated 5/16/2011 3:56:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Barra McCain is digging quite deeply into record evidence. He found something in The Lamont Papers that I think has led him to believe that the Argyllshire McLauchlane chiefly line daughtered out in the late 15th century. It may be worth your while contacting him in this regard. I did talk to Barra about some of his theories. He has a cluster in Argyllshire somewhere he has identified as descended from one of the known Maclachlan branches. The DNA in question is not M222. When I look for matches in our McLaughlin project I don't see any. I has to put the question on hold for the time being. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[There are bigger fish to fry than this one. See my latest email.] Yes, I've just read it. Glundubh was alive in A.D. 900 (I think he died in AD 943). I think there are too many generations between Ladhmann and Neil the Abbot for it to be him, but I'll check again. With this kind of thing it's probably best to check using all three of 25, 30 and 35 years per generation so when I check I'll do all three. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 16 May 2011 23:16 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nigello In a message dated 5/16/2011 4:56:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: I can't go by facts? I can't ask a question? That question was ably answered by Iain Kennedy. His answer complemented my own nicely. The fact that Nigellus means black in late Latin is irrelevant. That's why I said you can't go on that. It's just one name being substituted for another. One interesting example is the Irish Partholan and it's Latin equivalent, Bartholomus. <Can you give me a reference of Nigellus being so used? I don't dispute what you say, I just want to check my own searches. Read Iain Kennedy's response. I've seen the same thing myself but cannot give a specific reference off the top of my head. But I have seen the name used in Catholic parish records in Ireland as the Latin form of Neill. It's the same thing as using Jacobus for James. There are bigger fish to fry than this one. See my latest email. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Steve. The question arises due to a lack of knowledge about DNA on my part. One thing I haven't mentioned is that in the family line I'm working on, one of the males married a female who bore the name Effrik in one document. In another document, the same person is called Afrika. This was a good few hundred years later than the time of Neil or Nigello the Abbot, but it's still (to me) quite interesting. All I'm really trying to find out is whether there is a way of detecting ethnicity, and if so, what kind of test should I have? Mitochondrial? Autosomal? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Forrest Sent: 16 May 2011 23:12 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nigello On 16 May 2011 17:55, Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> wrote: > > I can give you my reference if you want it. > > [There's a repeated thread of the use of 'black' in Lamont pedigrees and > naming. Gille Dubh is an example. Black itself is another. In 1661 a > 'blakboy' is said to have descended from Orcanus.] > My grandfather (from Wester Ross) was called Iain Dubh merely because he had black hair. Taking this use of "dubh" as a suggestion of African origin is an unfounded generalization. [snip] > And I repeat my question : Can Y-DNA be used to check ethnicity? > Your question confuses me; I think we all understand well that Y-DNA is only the male line. There are a number of Y haplogroups (e.g. A, B, R-V88) which are associated with sub-Saharan Africa. If you tested positive for one of those you could presume you had a male-line African ancestor, but that would be only one tiny piece of your heritage. Similarly, Professor Henry Louis Gates is an African-American who is M222+ (or at least a match for North-West Irish according to his STRs) because he had an Irishman as a male-line ancestor. If you defined ethnicity by Y-DNA he would be solely Irish, which is a ethnic characterization I don't believe he would agree with. In short, no, Y-DNA alone cannot be used either to establish or falsify claims of ethnicity. Steve R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I don't follow your reasoning. I stated facts, and asked a question. The facts I stated were [Nigellus means blackish in late latin.] I can give you my reference if you want it. [There's a repeated thread of the use of 'black' in Lamont pedigrees and naming. Gille Dubh is an example. Black itself is another. In 1661 a 'blakboy' is said to have descended from Orcanus.] The question was prefaced by [It's so persistent that I have to ask the question :] The question was : [Can Y-DNA identify ethnicity?] I can't go by facts? I can't ask a question? You said [[You can't go by that. Nigellus was used as the Latinized version of the Gaelic Neill or Niall. Or perhaps even the Scandinavian Njal.]] Can you give me a reference of Nigellus being so used? I don't dispute what you say, I just want to check my own searches. And I repeat my question : Can Y-DNA be used to check ethnicity? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 16 May 2011 21:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nigello In a message dated 5/16/2011 3:56:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Nigellus means blackish in late latin. There's a repeated thread of the use of 'black' in Lamont pedigrees and naming. Gille Dubh is an example. Black itself is another. In 1661 a 'blakboy' is said to have descended from Orcanus. It's so persistent that I have to ask the question : Can Y-DNA identify ethnicity? You can't go by that. Nigellus was used as the Latinized version of the Gaelic Neill or Niall. Or perhaps even the Scandinavian Njal. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jerry Don't thank me. Thank Paul Conroy, who pointed it out a day or 5 ago. You've probably (hopefully) been too busy studying to have noticed. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 16 May 2011 20:56 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription / Ó Duinnshléibhe Hi Sandy, Many thanks, and good catch! I forgot about the doo version. Also, up in Ulster, under Scottish influence as you point out, Dubh is usually pronounced as Doo (with a little w at the end, very hard to hear because stress is usually placed at the beginning of the word unless there's a vowel marked with an accent in a later syllable).

I find reference to three MacGorrie families, "MacGorrie MacDonald", "MacGorrie Lamont" and another earlier family predating both the MacDonald and Lamont origins. From"The surnames of Scotland: their origin, meaning, and history" by George Fraser Black: "The family of Macgorrie is descended from Goraidh or Godfrey, youngest son of "the good John of Isla," Lord of the Isles, who died in 1380. Duncan M'Goffry, a knight of John de Ergadia (Argyll) in 1315 appears in the following year as Donekan de Makoury and in 1319 he appears again as Sir Dungan Mac Gofferri ( Bain, m, 479, 521 ). (2) The Macgorrie Laments of Knockdow are descended from Goire an tigheam ruadh, Godfrey the red baron, lord of Inverchaolain, who flourished c. 1430 ( McKechnie, The Lamont Clan, p. 418)." Duncan M'Goffry (a knight of John de Ergadia, i.e. a Ewne MacDougald), I think cannot be a son of Godfrey mac John of Isla (Eoin na-h Ile).

It becomes even more confusing. Consider the words of what I think was a Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makeham song. "There was Johnny MacIldoo and McGee and me and a couple or two or three went on a spree one day We had a bob or two, which we knew how to blew and...(I forget) We visited McCann's, MacLeman's, Dirty Dan's ... then someone called the shop man a liar ... and we all fought and bled... So here we have an Irish song but one using the Scottish pronunciation of McIlDoo. Admittedly the Clancy Brothers lived in Canada, but still. But the Duff I can understand. Take Siobhan. It's pronounced Shivorn. So the 'bh' sounds like a 'v'. So Dubh in Irish Gaelic sounds like a 'v' or perhaps an 'f', whereas in Scotland 'bh' is silent. Dubh becomes Du or Doo. So I can see how Duffy comes about. Yet as far as I know, Duffy is Scots. More confusing is that the 'bh' in Bunnahabhain (of which I part-took in some quantity last evening), is pronounced like a 'v'. It's from Islay, Scotland. So generally, I try to absorb what the scholars say (and Jerry is definitely a scholar, and I mean this in the very best sense of the word), but I think my hair is greyer than his. Paul, on the other hand, probably has a grey hair or two. Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy Sent: 16 May 2011 19:59 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription / Ó Duinnshléibhe I am intrigued with Paul's comment that dubh is pronounced differently in Ireland and Scotland; I only know the 'doo' version. I have always wondered how it is that this word gave us both Dow and Duff as surnames (especially as I am descended from a Perthshire Dow family myself). I just rechecked my surname atlas and see that both peak in Perthshire. Iain

Hi Jerry [Gille Dubh ('servant of black-haired') would become Giolla Duibh in time and anglicized as Gilduff / Kilduff .] In Ireland, yes. In Scotland I think he would have been Scotified from Gille Dubh to McIldubh, pronounced McIlDoo? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 16 May 2011 17:56 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription / Ó Duinnshléibhe A chairde / Friends Gille Dubh ('servant of black-haired') would become Giolla Duibh in time and anglicized as Gilduff / Kilduff . It would not ordinarily become Dunnshliabh ('Brown Mountain', also spelled Donnsliabh) or Duinnshle/ibhe ('of Brown Mountain'). O/ Duinnshle/ibhe ('Grandson of Brown Mountain') is usually anglicized as O'Dunleavy, O'Dunlevy, Levy. The O/ Duinnshle/ibhe were the Kings of the Da/l Fiatach of the Ulaidh until beaten by John de Courcy ca. 1176. Having been dispossessed, they became hereditary physicans in order to maintain their honor price and nemed (holy/noble) status under Fe/ineachas ('Brehon Law'). Best, Jerry R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am intrigued with Paul's comment that dubh is pronounced differently in Ireland and Scotland; I only know the 'doo' version. I have always wondered how it is that this word gave us both Dow and Duff as surnames (especially as I am descended from a Perthshire Dow family myself). I just rechecked my surname atlas and see that both peak in Perthshire. Iain > From: equisand@equiformratings.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:02:56 +0100 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription / Ó Duinnshléibhe > > Hi Jerry > > [Gille Dubh ('servant of black-haired') would become Giolla Duibh in time > and > anglicized as Gilduff / Kilduff .] > > In Ireland, yes. In Scotland I think he would have been Scotified from Gille > Dubh to McIldubh, pronounced McIlDoo? > > Sandy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly > Sent: 16 May 2011 17:56 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription / Ó Duinnshléibhe > > A chairde / Friends > > Gille Dubh ('servant of black-haired') would become Giolla Duibh in time and > > anglicized as Gilduff / Kilduff . It would not ordinarily become > Dunnshliabh > ('Brown Mountain', also spelled Donnsliabh) or Duinnshle/ibhe ('of Brown > Mountain'). > > O/ Duinnshle/ibhe ('Grandson of Brown Mountain') is usually anglicized as > O'Dunleavy, O'Dunlevy, Levy. > > The O/ Duinnshle/ibhe were the Kings of the Da/l Fiatach of the Ulaidh until > > beaten by John de Courcy ca. 1176. Having been dispossessed, they became > hereditary physicans in order to maintain their honor price and nemed > (holy/noble) status under Fe/ineachas ('Brehon Law'). > > > Best, > Jerry > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 5/16/2011 3:56:11 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Barra McCain is digging quite deeply into record evidence. He found something in The Lamont Papers that I think has led him to believe that the Argyllshire McLauchlane chiefly line daughtered out in the late 15th century. It may be worth your while contacting him in this regard. I did talk to Barra about some of his theories. He has a cluster in Argyllshire somewhere he has identified as descended from one of the known Maclachlan branches. The DNA in question is not M222. When I look for matches in our McLaughlin project I don't see any. I has to put the question on hold for the time being. John

[It's curious no record appears of a Duinnshleibe or Anradan. They appear just prior to Fearchar in the pedigree (alive in 1249). Or can someone produce such a record? And of course the above records shows Nigelli of Buyt to be Ferchar's father, not Duinnshleibhe.] The MS 1467 pedigree goes Ladhmann Son of Gille Colaim (Archibald) Son of (?) Son of Fearchar Son of Duinsleibhe So that pedigree shows 4 generations between Ladhmann and Duinsleibhe, say 120 years. I've not come across any 12th century or earlier records of anyone but royalty prior to the 13th century, so I don't think it's curious that there is no record of Duinnshleibhe or Anradan in Scotland. I think it's quite possible that the (?), Ladhmann's grandfather above was also a Fearchar (or Erachar). If so, it would be logical to think that the Fearchar alive in 1249 was Ladhmann's grandfather, not his great-grandfather as I think you imply. The Nigelli of Buyt was alive in 1249, so I don't think he could be Ladhmann's grandfather's father, and he definitely couldn't have been Ladhmann's great-grandfather's father. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 16 May 2011 01:08 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Dating the Lamont Pedigree There are a few Lamont records from Memorials of Argyllshire which might help date the Lamont pedigree in the new transcription. First the pedigree: Raiberd mac donnchaidh mhic eoin mhic gilla colaim mhic ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair mhic duinnsleibe mhic aed alainn The Lamont book do doubt contains versions of the same sources. Maybe even better ones. But this is what Memorials of Argyllshire has: In 1292, by an ordinance of King John Baliol we find T"ra Lochlani MacKilcoli MacErewar T"ra Eneg MacErewar T"ra .....Insula de Boot. That is, the lands of Laumun, son of Malcolm, son of Ferchar, the lands of Angus, son of Ferchar, the lands.... Island ob Bute (Act. Parl. Scot., Vol. I.) Note: the author treats MacErewar as MacFearchar in his analysis. In a charter dated before 1249, granted by Angus filii Donaldi in terra mea de Kentyr, among the witnesses are Farchardo filio Nigelli de Buyt and Duncano fratre suo. Also in 1292 Scots Act of Parliament We command and direct by these presents, that without any delay whatever, you cause summons of warning be served of Sir Angus son of Donald, Lawmund son of Ereghere, and Angus son of Duncan, the son of Eregere. Lamont MacFearchar and Angus son of Duncan, the son of Fearchar. 1230 - 1246 Gifts to Kilinan, Kilmore and Kilmun. Duncan, son of Ferchar, and Laumun, son of Malcolm, grandson of said Duncan...... I can't really do a genealogy chart in an email so I have to simplify it. Nigelli de Buyt 1249 Ferchar 1249, 1292 Malcolm 1230-1246 Lauman 1230-1246 This seems to fit part of the pedigree. ladmainn mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair These aren't death dates; just dates in sources or charters when the names appear. Nigelli de Buyt is interesting. Neill (or Nial) of the island of Bute. It is tempting to equate this Nial with Nial guirm, Abbot of Iona, yet it of course does not fit the pedigree which has a lot of intervening names between Ferchar and Nial. If nothing else it shows it was a name used by the Lamonts. The only record recorded when Fearchar was alive was in 1249. Old or young? Who knows? But if you take that as a starting point and walk down the pedigree using 30 years as a generation you find something like this: neill guirm .i. ab ite 930 murachaidh or gilladdub 960 gillacrist 990 domnaill 1010 missing name 1040 muiredaigh 1070 connstantin 1100 flaitbertaig 1130 anradain 1160 aed alainn (ie, Buirche) 1190 Duinnshleibhe 1220 Fearchar 1250 Being of the suspicious sort I think Nigelli de Buyt is probably the Nial in this pedigree. Which would mean it's basically a fabrication. And that would mean the first reliable name in the pedigree is Fearchar. If the pedigree is a fabrication than what might that mean for the other families also linked to the same line prior to Fearchar, ie, Duinnshleibe and Anradan? It's curious no record appears of a Duinnshleibe or Anradan. They appear just prior to Fearchar in the pedigree (alive in 1249). Or can someone produce such a record? And of course the above records shows Nigelli of Buyt to be Ferchar's father, not Duinnshleibhe. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message