In a message dated 5/18/2011 12:14:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Both could be guesses. Does 'trostain' have a special meaning in genealogy? Flaithbertach an trostain is not a guess in that I am taking that directly from the O'Neill pedigree and merely comparing that to the transcription offered for the MS. 1467. The meaning is 'of the pilgrim's staff,' applied to this Flaithbertach because he took a pilgrimage to Rome. The point in this comparison is that Connstantine could be completely misread in the MS. except for a few vowels and consonants. As I recall Constantine was a Romano-British personal name popular with the Britons. It appears in a few versions of the Campbell pedigree along with king Arthur and Uther pendragon. It may also appear in Welsh genealogies appended to Nennius but I haven't bothered to check that. John

If Adomnain (as in the Cain Adomnain) becomes the Law of Adomnan, does Cain become Can or Cane? If so, I think that makes Orcanus = O'Canus and not O'Cainus as I suggested yesterday. Does that make sense? Sandy

Hi Sandy, Fh in the Gaelic languages is silent. At some point about the late Middle Ages or so there was a kind of grammatical movement that got started to change a name like Mac Ferchar to Mac Fherchar to indicate that Ferchar is in the genitive ('of Ferchar'). With the change to Fh, and Fh being silent, a next step would be to change the spelling or to spell it phonetically as Mac Erachar. Today, the tendency would be spell it as either Mac Fearchair (pronouncing the F) or Mac Fhearchair (with the silent Fh), thereby preserving the original patronym for all to see. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 2:51:52 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacFeachair I've seen someone claim that the first surname used was McErachar. I'm not sure how Ferchar/Fearchar becomes Erachar though. Then Laumnon (Ladhman/Lagman) was used for one generation and then changed to Lawmanson or Lawmonson until around 1480 or so. Then there was a period of using patrynomics until eventually Lamont prevailed. Having said that, there are still Lamonds around. There's a Downie, possibly a McIlduie in earlier days in the Clam Lamont DNA site, plus a good few Downie or variants on a rapidly growing site of its own. It may be informative to compare Downies with Farquharsons. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 18 May 2011 19:08 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] MacFeachair What was the original surname of the original Lamont? I read of a charter calling him called Lawemundu Mac Greghere (after his grandfather). I read to that Mac Greghere was confused by some with Mac Gregor. Which makes me wonder about reference to Mac Gregors in Cowall area. Then I find authors saying that the Lamonts original named MacFhearchar or MacErachar. Which make me wonder about the M'Gilligowie proximity to the Farquharsons (the MacFeachair). R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[That struck me as odd for two reasons. The first is that Connstantine is a name seldom encountered in Gaelic pedigrees. In fact I think the only place I've ever seen it is in the old Welsh pedigrees.] I found him in Chronicles of the Picts, Chronicles of the Scots, and Other Early Memorials of Scottish History page cxlv "He is also apparently meant by the Kenneth, son of Malcolm, who slew Constantin..." I then searched for Constantin and the name appears many times, but it could be the same person. http://www.archive.org/stream/chroniclespicts00skengoog#page/n153/mode/1up/s earch/Gille+Dubh Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 17 May 2011 23:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] MS. 1467 If anyone is wondering I haven't heard back yet from the authors of the new transcription of MS. 1467. Here's a part of what the author said: "It could easily be 'glundubh'. I think perhaps we should change our reading here. To be honest it could be almost anything, and this is where the problem arises. We were trying to read the manuscript as it was, and not be influenced in advance by what was in other manuscripts. But here, where it is so unclear, I think you are right and it should be 'glundubh'." This was intended for someone else, not me. I think they got confused on who said what. But of course it can only refer to Nial glundubh. And the only place that name is likely to appear in the MS. 1467 is in the pedigree of the Lamonts. And the only place in the Lamont pedigree that is likely to appear is in place of Neill guirm, Abbot of Iona. At first I noticed no possible connection between their new transcription and the normal Anradan pedigree from other sources too numerous to mention. But I was struck by one phrase - Flaitbertach mhic Connstantine That struck me as odd for two reasons. The first is that Connstantine is a name seldom encountered in Gaelic pedigrees. In fact I think the only place I've ever seen it is in the old Welsh pedigrees. Secondy, it bears a superficial resemblence to the Flaitbertach an trostain of the traditional Lamont pedigrees in Irish MS. If you've looked at the graphic of the pedigree online you'll understand why Skene butchered it so badly and why the current editors admit to having so much trouble reading it. I can't make heads or tails of it myself. So I took the names from the traditional Lamont pedigree and lined them up with the new reading from the online transcription and was surprised to find they basically matched up at least in terms of generations. A few names were the same in each version. In fact only one name is missing completely - Aodh Athlaman. I'll re-post this from yesterday. Anradan--------------------------------Anradan Aedha athlamhain--------------- ? Flaithbertaigh an trostain-----Flaitbertag mc Constantine? Muircertaigh mhidhigh----------Muirdaigh Domhnaill arda macha ---------Domnaill mic Gillacrist Muircertaigh na ccocal ccroicenn--------Murachaidh ie Gilladubh Nial glundubh--------------------------------Nial guirm Notice that the names line up almost perfectly. Except Muirchertaigh is rendered Muirdaigh and Murachaidh in different spots. That is a very easy mistake to make with handwritten abbreviated names in Irish script and remember, we're dealing with a very poor copy to begin with. So I think we're just going to end up with another version of the traditional Anradan kindred pedigree, which would make perfect sense and would clear up a lot of the ambiguities in the text from Skene's time. That alone would make the new editor's efforts worthwhile even if they didn't get it quite right themselves. All any of us want is accuracy. Just as an example look at the authors "how to" page. You can see an abbreviation commonly used for Murchadh. That McH can be difficult to distinguish from other similar names especially in a poor quality manuscript. I've looked at the MacSweeney pedigree in the Book of Ballymote and all I see are a series of squiggles because just about every name in the pedigree is abbreviated as above.. I'm amazed anyone can decipher this stuff. My hat is off to them. I need a roadmap and a GPS to navigate these pedigrees. But at this point I do not know for sure what their opinion is and what they intend to do next if anything. If I hear anything I'll pass it along. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sandy, I'm not sure about this one. I'm used to seeing Drustan / Trostan and its variations as a name. But, as you point out, a title seems to be a possibility here for the following reasons. 1. the odd thing about Flaithbertaigh an trostain is the i in Trostain. It makes it look like the genitive of the name ('of Trostan' rather than just Trostan). If this were modern Irish, it would almost definitely be the genitive. If this were modern Irish, it would mean Flaithbertaig of the Trostan. 2. If it's not in the genitive, then it would mean "Flaithbertaigh the Trostan." So, although I'm used to it as a name, it does look like a title here as you suggest. Sorry to say I have no knowledge of Coustoun. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 12:02:49 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS. 1467 Trostan / Drustan / Tristan Thanks. So it's a name, not a title? Do you think Coustoun could have Pictish roots as well? The reason I ask is that Troustoun and Coustoun are on the Cowal peninsula. The locals pronounce the latter as 'Carsten', but I haven't heard Troustoun pronounced yet. Rothesay, on Bute, is pronounced 'Rossie'. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 18 May 2011 16:45 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS. 1467 Trostan / Drustan / Tristan Trostan / Drustan eventually yielded Tristan (as in Tristan & Isolde). It was originally a prestige Pictish name. Shows up as the name of Pictish kings if I remember correctly. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 1:12:54 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS. 1467 [Flaithbertaigh an trostain-----Flaitbertag mc Constantine?] Constantine trostain Both could be guesses. Does 'trostain' have a special meaning in genealogy? [Neill guirm, Abbot of Iona.] I'd be interested to know how confident they are about the Abbot of Iona bit. They've already made it clear that only the g in guirm is definite by making the uirm red. But it seems to me that if the Abbot of Iona bit is indeed accurate, then it cannot possibly have been Glundubh. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 17 May 2011 23:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] MS. 1467 If anyone is wondering I haven't heard back yet from the authors of the new transcription of MS. 1467. Here's a part of what the author said: "It could easily be 'glundubh'. I think perhaps we should change our reading here. To be honest it could be almost anything, and this is where the problem arises. We were trying to read the manuscript as it was, and not be influenced in advance by what was in other manuscripts. But here, where it is so unclear, I think you are right and it should be 'glundubh'." This was intended for someone else, not me. I think they got confused on who said what. But of course it can only refer to Nial glundubh. And the only place that name is likely to appear in the MS. 1467 is in the pedigree of the Lamonts. And the only place in the Lamont pedigree that is likely to appear is in place of Neill guirm, Abbot of Iona. At first I noticed no possible connection between their new transcription and the normal Anradan pedigree from other sources too numerous to mention. But I was struck by one phrase - Flaitbertach mhic Connstantine That struck me as odd for two reasons. The first is that Connstantine is a name seldom encountered in Gaelic pedigrees. In fact I think the only place I've ever seen it is in the old Welsh pedigrees. Secondy, it bears a superficial resemblence to the Flaitbertach an trostain of the traditional Lamont pedigrees in Irish MS. If you've looked at the graphic of the pedigree online you'll understand why Skene butchered it so badly and why the current editors admit to having so much trouble reading it. I can't make heads or tails of it myself. So I took the names from the traditional Lamont pedigree and lined them up with the new reading from the online transcription and was surprised to find they basically matched up at least in terms of generations. A few names were the same in each version. In fact only one name is missing completely - Aodh Athlaman. I'll re-post this from yesterday. Anradan--------------------------------Anradan Aedha athlamhain--------------- ? Flaithbertaigh an trostain-----Flaitbertag mc Constantine? Muircertaigh mhidhigh----------Muirdaigh Domhnaill arda macha ---------Domnaill mic Gillacrist Muircertaigh na ccocal ccroicenn--------Murachaidh ie Gilladubh Nial glundubh--------------------------------Nial guirm Notice that the names line up almost perfectly. Except Muirchertaigh is rendered Muirdaigh and Murachaidh in different spots. That is a very easy mistake to make with handwritten abbreviated names in Irish script and remember, we're dealing with a very poor copy to begin with. So I think we're just going to end up with another version of the traditional Anradan kindred pedigree, which would make perfect sense and would clear up a lot of the ambiguities in the text from Skene's time. That alone would make the new editor's efforts worthwhile even if they didn't get it quite right themselves. All any of us want is accuracy. Just as an example look at the authors "how to" page. You can see an abbreviation commonly used for Murchadh. That McH can be difficult to distinguish from other similar names especially in a poor quality manuscript. I've looked at the MacSweeney pedigree in the Book of Ballymote and all I see are a series of squiggles because just about every name in the pedigree is abbreviated as above.. I'm amazed anyone can decipher this stuff. My hat is off to them. I need a roadmap and a GPS to navigate these pedigrees. But at this point I do not know for sure what their opinion is and what they intend to do next if anything. If I hear anything I'll pass it along. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Trostan / Drustan eventually yielded Tristan (as in Tristan & Isolde). It was originally a prestige Pictish name. Shows up as the name of Pictish kings if I remember correctly. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 1:12:54 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS. 1467 [Flaithbertaigh an trostain-----Flaitbertag mc Constantine?] Constantine trostain Both could be guesses. Does 'trostain' have a special meaning in genealogy? [Neill guirm, Abbot of Iona.] I'd be interested to know how confident they are about the Abbot of Iona bit. They've already made it clear that only the g in guirm is definite by making the uirm red. But it seems to me that if the Abbot of Iona bit is indeed accurate, then it cannot possibly have been Glundubh. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 17 May 2011 23:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] MS. 1467 If anyone is wondering I haven't heard back yet from the authors of the new transcription of MS. 1467. Here's a part of what the author said: "It could easily be 'glundubh'. I think perhaps we should change our reading here. To be honest it could be almost anything, and this is where the problem arises. We were trying to read the manuscript as it was, and not be influenced in advance by what was in other manuscripts. But here, where it is so unclear, I think you are right and it should be 'glundubh'." This was intended for someone else, not me. I think they got confused on who said what. But of course it can only refer to Nial glundubh. And the only place that name is likely to appear in the MS. 1467 is in the pedigree of the Lamonts. And the only place in the Lamont pedigree that is likely to appear is in place of Neill guirm, Abbot of Iona. At first I noticed no possible connection between their new transcription and the normal Anradan pedigree from other sources too numerous to mention. But I was struck by one phrase - Flaitbertach mhic Connstantine That struck me as odd for two reasons. The first is that Connstantine is a name seldom encountered in Gaelic pedigrees. In fact I think the only place I've ever seen it is in the old Welsh pedigrees. Secondy, it bears a superficial resemblence to the Flaitbertach an trostain of the traditional Lamont pedigrees in Irish MS. If you've looked at the graphic of the pedigree online you'll understand why Skene butchered it so badly and why the current editors admit to having so much trouble reading it. I can't make heads or tails of it myself. So I took the names from the traditional Lamont pedigree and lined them up with the new reading from the online transcription and was surprised to find they basically matched up at least in terms of generations. A few names were the same in each version. In fact only one name is missing completely - Aodh Athlaman. I'll re-post this from yesterday. Anradan--------------------------------Anradan Aedha athlamhain--------------- ? Flaithbertaigh an trostain-----Flaitbertag mc Constantine? Muircertaigh mhidhigh----------Muirdaigh Domhnaill arda macha ---------Domnaill mic Gillacrist Muircertaigh na ccocal ccroicenn--------Murachaidh ie Gilladubh Nial glundubh--------------------------------Nial guirm Notice that the names line up almost perfectly. Except Muirchertaigh is rendered Muirdaigh and Murachaidh in different spots. That is a very easy mistake to make with handwritten abbreviated names in Irish script and remember, we're dealing with a very poor copy to begin with. So I think we're just going to end up with another version of the traditional Anradan kindred pedigree, which would make perfect sense and would clear up a lot of the ambiguities in the text from Skene's time. That alone would make the new editor's efforts worthwhile even if they didn't get it quite right themselves. All any of us want is accuracy. Just as an example look at the authors "how to" page. You can see an abbreviation commonly used for Murchadh. That McH can be difficult to distinguish from other similar names especially in a poor quality manuscript. I've looked at the MacSweeney pedigree in the Book of Ballymote and all I see are a series of squiggles because just about every name in the pedigree is abbreviated as above.. I'm amazed anyone can decipher this stuff. My hat is off to them. I need a roadmap and a GPS to navigate these pedigrees. But at this point I do not know for sure what their opinion is and what they intend to do next if anything. If I hear anything I'll pass it along. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I've noticed that Constantine was often Gaelicized into forms like Causanti/n. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 6:05:46 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS. 1467 [That struck me as odd for two reasons. The first is that Connstantine is a name seldom encountered in Gaelic pedigrees. In fact I think the only place I've ever seen it is in the old Welsh pedigrees.] I found him in Chronicles of the Picts, Chronicles of the Scots, and Other Early Memorials of Scottish History page cxlv "He is also apparently meant by the Kenneth, son of Malcolm, who slew Constantin..." I then searched for Constantin and the name appears many times, but it could be the same person. http://www.archive.org/stream/chroniclespicts00skengoog#page/n153/mode/1up/s earch/Gille+Dubh Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 17 May 2011 23:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] MS. 1467 If anyone is wondering I haven't heard back yet from the authors of the new transcription of MS. 1467. Here's a part of what the author said: "It could easily be 'glundubh'. I think perhaps we should change our reading here. To be honest it could be almost anything, and this is where the problem arises. We were trying to read the manuscript as it was, and not be influenced in advance by what was in other manuscripts. But here, where it is so unclear, I think you are right and it should be 'glundubh'." This was intended for someone else, not me. I think they got confused on who said what. But of course it can only refer to Nial glundubh. And the only place that name is likely to appear in the MS. 1467 is in the pedigree of the Lamonts. And the only place in the Lamont pedigree that is likely to appear is in place of Neill guirm, Abbot of Iona. At first I noticed no possible connection between their new transcription and the normal Anradan pedigree from other sources too numerous to mention. But I was struck by one phrase - Flaitbertach mhic Connstantine That struck me as odd for two reasons. The first is that Connstantine is a name seldom encountered in Gaelic pedigrees. In fact I think the only place I've ever seen it is in the old Welsh pedigrees. Secondy, it bears a superficial resemblence to the Flaitbertach an trostain of the traditional Lamont pedigrees in Irish MS. If you've looked at the graphic of the pedigree online you'll understand why Skene butchered it so badly and why the current editors admit to having so much trouble reading it. I can't make heads or tails of it myself. So I took the names from the traditional Lamont pedigree and lined them up with the new reading from the online transcription and was surprised to find they basically matched up at least in terms of generations. A few names were the same in each version. In fact only one name is missing completely - Aodh Athlaman. I'll re-post this from yesterday. Anradan--------------------------------Anradan Aedha athlamhain--------------- ? Flaithbertaigh an trostain-----Flaitbertag mc Constantine? Muircertaigh mhidhigh----------Muirdaigh Domhnaill arda macha ---------Domnaill mic Gillacrist Muircertaigh na ccocal ccroicenn--------Murachaidh ie Gilladubh Nial glundubh--------------------------------Nial guirm Notice that the names line up almost perfectly. Except Muirchertaigh is rendered Muirdaigh and Murachaidh in different spots. That is a very easy mistake to make with handwritten abbreviated names in Irish script and remember, we're dealing with a very poor copy to begin with. So I think we're just going to end up with another version of the traditional Anradan kindred pedigree, which would make perfect sense and would clear up a lot of the ambiguities in the text from Skene's time. That alone would make the new editor's efforts worthwhile even if they didn't get it quite right themselves. All any of us want is accuracy. Just as an example look at the authors "how to" page. You can see an abbreviation commonly used for Murchadh. That McH can be difficult to distinguish from other similar names especially in a poor quality manuscript. I've looked at the MacSweeney pedigree in the Book of Ballymote and all I see are a series of squiggles because just about every name in the pedigree is abbreviated as above.. I'm amazed anyone can decipher this stuff. My hat is off to them. I need a roadmap and a GPS to navigate these pedigrees. But at this point I do not know for sure what their opinion is and what they intend to do next if anything. If I hear anything I'll pass it along. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

["It could easily be 'glundubh'. I think perhaps we should change our reading here. To be honest it could be almost anything, and this is where the problem arises. We were trying to read the manuscript as it was, and not be influenced in advance by what was in other manuscripts. But here, where it is so unclear, I think you are right and it should be 'glundubh'."] Glundubh the abbot of Iona? Or just Glundubh? Let's suppose it is just Glundubh. Do you think his son would be named Gille Dubh? Named after his father's knee? Doesn't feel right. Dark complexion, fine. Dark hair, fine. Black knee? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 17 May 2011 23:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] MS. 1467 If anyone is wondering I haven't heard back yet from the authors of the new transcription of MS. 1467. Here's a part of what the author said: "It could easily be 'glundubh'. I think perhaps we should change our reading here. To be honest it could be almost anything, and this is where the problem arises. We were trying to read the manuscript as it was, and not be influenced in advance by what was in other manuscripts. But here, where it is so unclear, I think you are right and it should be 'glundubh'." This was intended for someone else, not me. I think they got confused on who said what. But of course it can only refer to Nial glundubh. And the only place that name is likely to appear in the MS. 1467 is in the pedigree of the Lamonts. And the only place in the Lamont pedigree that is likely to appear is in place of Neill guirm, Abbot of Iona. At first I noticed no possible connection between their new transcription and the normal Anradan pedigree from other sources too numerous to mention. But I was struck by one phrase - Flaitbertach mhic Connstantine That struck me as odd for two reasons. The first is that Connstantine is a name seldom encountered in Gaelic pedigrees. In fact I think the only place I've ever seen it is in the old Welsh pedigrees. Secondy, it bears a superficial resemblence to the Flaitbertach an trostain of the traditional Lamont pedigrees in Irish MS. If you've looked at the graphic of the pedigree online you'll understand why Skene butchered it so badly and why the current editors admit to having so much trouble reading it. I can't make heads or tails of it myself. So I took the names from the traditional Lamont pedigree and lined them up with the new reading from the online transcription and was surprised to find they basically matched up at least in terms of generations. A few names were the same in each version. In fact only one name is missing completely - Aodh Athlaman. I'll re-post this from yesterday. Anradan--------------------------------Anradan Aedha athlamhain--------------- ? Flaithbertaigh an trostain-----Flaitbertag mc Constantine? Muircertaigh mhidhigh----------Muirdaigh Domhnaill arda macha ---------Domnaill mic Gillacrist Muircertaigh na ccocal ccroicenn--------Murachaidh ie Gilladubh Nial glundubh--------------------------------Nial guirm Notice that the names line up almost perfectly. Except Muirchertaigh is rendered Muirdaigh and Murachaidh in different spots. That is a very easy mistake to make with handwritten abbreviated names in Irish script and remember, we're dealing with a very poor copy to begin with. So I think we're just going to end up with another version of the traditional Anradan kindred pedigree, which would make perfect sense and would clear up a lot of the ambiguities in the text from Skene's time. That alone would make the new editor's efforts worthwhile even if they didn't get it quite right themselves. All any of us want is accuracy. Just as an example look at the authors "how to" page. You can see an abbreviation commonly used for Murchadh. That McH can be difficult to distinguish from other similar names especially in a poor quality manuscript. I've looked at the MacSweeney pedigree in the Book of Ballymote and all I see are a series of squiggles because just about every name in the pedigree is abbreviated as above.. I'm amazed anyone can decipher this stuff. My hat is off to them. I need a roadmap and a GPS to navigate these pedigrees. But at this point I do not know for sure what their opinion is and what they intend to do next if anything. If I hear anything I'll pass it along. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My full results are now through, with a solitary null value corrected to a 12. Larry Slavens and I have 2 extra off-modal matches amongst the 44 new markers, plus one directional match (we've both mutated down). So the 67-marker similarity persists. Can anyone offer an explanation as to how Sleibine mac Congaile can be the same person as Niall g....? Niall (con)g(aile) ? I know that's stretching it, but there must be some explanation. Sandy

[Any connection here with the R1a Lamonts who are said to match the McDonalds?] All I can tell you is that the three Lamont R1a's would look perfectly at home amongst the clan Donald Nordic's. I'm curious that you persist with de Buyt. I may have got it wrong but you seem to have Ladhmann alive at the same time as de Buyt, who, if you are right, would have to have been Ladhmann's great great grandfather. A great great grandfather still alive at the same time as his great great grandson? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 18 May 2011 02:06 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Angus MacRory I found a couple of references to the Nigelli of Buyt quoted in Memorials of Argyllshire. The text is in Latin and I can't tell the date. They were dated to prior to 1249 by the author. In each reference the men were witnesses. You can find a copy on Google Books if you want them. Ferchardo filio Nigelli de Buyt p. 268 Descriptions of the sheriffdoms of Lanark and Renfrew compiled about M.DCC.X ... edited by John Dillion, John Fullartoun Ferchardo de Buit, Duncano fratre suo p.268 Descriptions of the sheriffdoms of Lanark and Renfrew compiled about M.DCC.X ... edited by John Dillion, John Fullartoun Skene (Highlanders of Scotland) says the Lamonts were descended from an Angus MacRory (ie, McDonald), who at about this time, was Lord of Bute. Any connection here with the R1a Lamonts who are said to match the McDonalds? John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[Flaithbertaigh an trostain-----Flaitbertag mc Constantine?] Constantine trostain Both could be guesses. Does 'trostain' have a special meaning in genealogy? [Neill guirm, Abbot of Iona.] I'd be interested to know how confident they are about the Abbot of Iona bit. They've already made it clear that only the g in guirm is definite by making the uirm red. But it seems to me that if the Abbot of Iona bit is indeed accurate, then it cannot possibly have been Glundubh. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 17 May 2011 23:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] MS. 1467 If anyone is wondering I haven't heard back yet from the authors of the new transcription of MS. 1467. Here's a part of what the author said: "It could easily be 'glundubh'. I think perhaps we should change our reading here. To be honest it could be almost anything, and this is where the problem arises. We were trying to read the manuscript as it was, and not be influenced in advance by what was in other manuscripts. But here, where it is so unclear, I think you are right and it should be 'glundubh'." This was intended for someone else, not me. I think they got confused on who said what. But of course it can only refer to Nial glundubh. And the only place that name is likely to appear in the MS. 1467 is in the pedigree of the Lamonts. And the only place in the Lamont pedigree that is likely to appear is in place of Neill guirm, Abbot of Iona. At first I noticed no possible connection between their new transcription and the normal Anradan pedigree from other sources too numerous to mention. But I was struck by one phrase - Flaitbertach mhic Connstantine That struck me as odd for two reasons. The first is that Connstantine is a name seldom encountered in Gaelic pedigrees. In fact I think the only place I've ever seen it is in the old Welsh pedigrees. Secondy, it bears a superficial resemblence to the Flaitbertach an trostain of the traditional Lamont pedigrees in Irish MS. If you've looked at the graphic of the pedigree online you'll understand why Skene butchered it so badly and why the current editors admit to having so much trouble reading it. I can't make heads or tails of it myself. So I took the names from the traditional Lamont pedigree and lined them up with the new reading from the online transcription and was surprised to find they basically matched up at least in terms of generations. A few names were the same in each version. In fact only one name is missing completely - Aodh Athlaman. I'll re-post this from yesterday. Anradan--------------------------------Anradan Aedha athlamhain--------------- ? Flaithbertaigh an trostain-----Flaitbertag mc Constantine? Muircertaigh mhidhigh----------Muirdaigh Domhnaill arda macha ---------Domnaill mic Gillacrist Muircertaigh na ccocal ccroicenn--------Murachaidh ie Gilladubh Nial glundubh--------------------------------Nial guirm Notice that the names line up almost perfectly. Except Muirchertaigh is rendered Muirdaigh and Murachaidh in different spots. That is a very easy mistake to make with handwritten abbreviated names in Irish script and remember, we're dealing with a very poor copy to begin with. So I think we're just going to end up with another version of the traditional Anradan kindred pedigree, which would make perfect sense and would clear up a lot of the ambiguities in the text from Skene's time. That alone would make the new editor's efforts worthwhile even if they didn't get it quite right themselves. All any of us want is accuracy. Just as an example look at the authors "how to" page. You can see an abbreviation commonly used for Murchadh. That McH can be difficult to distinguish from other similar names especially in a poor quality manuscript. I've looked at the MacSweeney pedigree in the Book of Ballymote and all I see are a series of squiggles because just about every name in the pedigree is abbreviated as above.. I'm amazed anyone can decipher this stuff. My hat is off to them. I need a roadmap and a GPS to navigate these pedigrees. But at this point I do not know for sure what their opinion is and what they intend to do next if anything. If I hear anything I'll pass it along. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I found a couple of references to the Nigelli of Buyt quoted in Memorials of Argyllshire. The text is in Latin and I can't tell the date. They were dated to prior to 1249 by the author. In each reference the men were witnesses. You can find a copy on Google Books if you want them. Ferchardo filio Nigelli de Buyt p. 268 Descriptions of the sheriffdoms of Lanark and Renfrew compiled about M.DCC.X ... edited by John Dillion, John Fullartoun Ferchardo de Buit, Duncano fratre suo p.268 Descriptions of the sheriffdoms of Lanark and Renfrew compiled about M.DCC.X ... edited by John Dillion, John Fullartoun Skene (Highlanders of Scotland) says the Lamonts were descended from an Angus MacRory (ie, McDonald), who at about this time, was Lord of Bute. Any connection here with the R1a Lamonts who are said to match the McDonalds? John

I don't know how well know the Lamont family DNA project website, but it contains a letter written by one of the Archibald Lamonts (15th or 16th chief, I think) in response to a letter he received from a man with the surname Black from Ireland towards the end of the 17th century. You don't have to sign in to read the letter. Just go to the site and click on HISTORIES in the menu in red on the left. You may have to search a little to find it but I think it's in one of the first three articles. Also there is about the funniest bit of writing I've read for years. It's a reply by one member of the cloth to a letter he received from another member of the cloth to do with the grazing rights for 8 cows on the farm Stronyarraig, where my putative ggggg-grandfather was born in 1744. Steinbeck would have been proud of it, even though it's not his writing style. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: 17 May 2011 19:06 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] O'Cainus Thanks so much for the ties between Lamont and Black. I descend from a line of Blacks from Ahoghil, Antrim that according to their family history descend from a Captain Lamont who arrived with Monroe's Army in 1742 and whose descendants took the surname Black. Unfortunately, while we have musters in Ireland for that period I've not located any information relating to where they mustered the Scots army. I have David Stevenson's "Scottish Covenanters and Irish Confederates" but of course my man is not identified therein.

If anyone is wondering I haven't heard back yet from the authors of the new transcription of MS. 1467. Here's a part of what the author said: "It could easily be 'glundubh'. I think perhaps we should change our reading here. To be honest it could be almost anything, and this is where the problem arises. We were trying to read the manuscript as it was, and not be influenced in advance by what was in other manuscripts. But here, where it is so unclear, I think you are right and it should be 'glundubh'." This was intended for someone else, not me. I think they got confused on who said what. But of course it can only refer to Nial glundubh. And the only place that name is likely to appear in the MS. 1467 is in the pedigree of the Lamonts. And the only place in the Lamont pedigree that is likely to appear is in place of Neill guirm, Abbot of Iona. At first I noticed no possible connection between their new transcription and the normal Anradan pedigree from other sources too numerous to mention. But I was struck by one phrase - Flaitbertach mhic Connstantine That struck me as odd for two reasons. The first is that Connstantine is a name seldom encountered in Gaelic pedigrees. In fact I think the only place I've ever seen it is in the old Welsh pedigrees. Secondy, it bears a superficial resemblence to the Flaitbertach an trostain of the traditional Lamont pedigrees in Irish MS. If you've looked at the graphic of the pedigree online you'll understand why Skene butchered it so badly and why the current editors admit to having so much trouble reading it. I can't make heads or tails of it myself. So I took the names from the traditional Lamont pedigree and lined them up with the new reading from the online transcription and was surprised to find they basically matched up at least in terms of generations. A few names were the same in each version. In fact only one name is missing completely - Aodh Athlaman. I'll re-post this from yesterday. Anradan--------------------------------Anradan Aedha athlamhain--------------- ? Flaithbertaigh an trostain-----Flaitbertag mc Constantine? Muircertaigh mhidhigh----------Muirdaigh Domhnaill arda macha ---------Domnaill mic Gillacrist Muircertaigh na ccocal ccroicenn--------Murachaidh ie Gilladubh Nial glundubh--------------------------------Nial guirm Notice that the names line up almost perfectly. Except Muirchertaigh is rendered Muirdaigh and Murachaidh in different spots. That is a very easy mistake to make with handwritten abbreviated names in Irish script and remember, we're dealing with a very poor copy to begin with. So I think we're just going to end up with another version of the traditional Anradan kindred pedigree, which would make perfect sense and would clear up a lot of the ambiguities in the text from Skene's time. That alone would make the new editor's efforts worthwhile even if they didn't get it quite right themselves. All any of us want is accuracy. Just as an example look at the authors "how to" page. You can see an abbreviation commonly used for Murchadh. That McH can be difficult to distinguish from other similar names especially in a poor quality manuscript. I've looked at the MacSweeney pedigree in the Book of Ballymote and all I see are a series of squiggles because just about every name in the pedigree is abbreviated as above.. I'm amazed anyone can decipher this stuff. My hat is off to them. I need a roadmap and a GPS to navigate these pedigrees. But at this point I do not know for sure what their opinion is and what they intend to do next if anything. If I hear anything I'll pass it along. John

Thanks so much for the ties between Lamont and Black. I descend from a line of Blacks from Ahoghil, Antrim that according to their family history descend from a Captain Lamont who arrived with Monroe's Army in 1742 and whose descendants took the surname Black. Unfortunately, while we have musters in Ireland for that period I've not located any information relating to where they mustered the Scots army. I have David Stevenson's "Scottish Covenanters and Irish Confederates" but of course my man is not identified therein. This line produced Rev. John Black, who fled from the British in 1797 for Philadelphia. He later settled in Pittsburgh, PA, and became a well known national figure over the United Irish Rebellion and the issue of slavery. The Reformed Presbyterian church voted in 1800 to disallow members to own slaves. This sparked a schism in South Carolina which resulted in many people moving to Ohio or Pennsylvania, among them my ancestor, John's brother Robert. http://www.covenanter.org/JBlack/johnblack.htm http://www.pcahistory.org/biography/black.html So it was of great interest to learn of the Lamonts' preference for the surname Black. Linda Merle From: "Sandy Paterson" < equisand@equiformratings.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] O'Cainus To: < dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <000001cc1497$9877b160$c9671420$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks Bernard This is very interesting. I'm not sure how much you know about the Lamonts, but after the massacre in 1646, they seem to have more or less disappeared from the Cowal peninsula. There are signs (from birth registrations) that McPhadrick Lamonts and McQuein Lamonts (who I think are actually McEwen of Otter descendants) ended up in Moray. Many fled to Ireland. Judging from the number of Lamonts in Argyllshire today, not too many ever returned. My descendants did seem to, around 1730. By the way, I'm a Lamont bastard thrice removed. Anyway, I can see plenty work ahead. Thanks for your help so far. Cheers Sandy

[U1164.2: Select members of the Community of Ia, namely, the arch-priest, Augustin and the lector (that is, Dubsidhe) and the Eremite, Mac Gilla-duib and the Head of the Celi-De, namely, Mac Forcellaigh and select members of the Community of Ia besides came on behalf of the successor of Colum-cille, namely, Flaithbertach Ua Brolchain's acceptance of the abbacy of Ia, by advice of Somharlidh and of the Men of Airthir-Gaedhel and of Insi-Gall; but the successor of Patrick and the king of Ireland, that is, Ua Lochlainn and the nobles of Cenel-Eogain prevented him.] So Ia is Iona. Augustin is the arch-priest Dubsidhe is the lector Mac Gilla-duib is the Eremite Mac Forcellaigh is the Head of the Celi-De Can you help with Eremite? To me this means that, totally independently of the new transcript of MS 1467, the Annals identify a Mac Gilla-duib with Iona and its inhabitants. There could of course have been more than one Gilla-duib. And of course this is in 1164, whereas Sir James spoke of Orcanus having lived around A.D. 900. So this means that Mac Gille Dubh would have to have become a patrynomic surname within two generations of Neill guirm. Were patronyms in use in Iona by then? If so, I'd say that Neill guarm the abbot must surely be a more likely candidate than Niall Glundubh for Lamont ancestry, which was my gut feeling anyway. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 17 May 2011 16:59 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] Iona - MacGuilaDuibh ancestors to the Lamonts? > "...Orcanus, Laird of Lamount, quha livet about the nyn hundredth > zeir of oure Lord." The 1661 charter begins by Sir James Lamont saying "John M'Gilligowie in Castletoune in the Brae of Mar, and Donald Mclzegowie servitour to Sir David Ogilvie, sone to the Earle of Airlie, and all the name of M'llzeguies, ar my trew native kindlie people and kinsmen" and that they descend from one of his predecessors who was called by the nickname "Gillidow". So the they are the MacGillidowie. MS1450 tells us of Murachaidh i gilladub, i.e. Muireachaidh nikcnamed Gilladubh, the son of Neill guirm abbot of Iona. Black - in his "Surnames of Scotland" under MacIldowie (MacGillaDuibh) tells of Macgilladubh the Hermit of Iona recorded in 1164. U1164.2: Select members of the Community of Ia, namely, the arch-priest, Augustin and the lector (that is, Dubsidhe) and the Eremite, Mac Gilla-duib and the Head of the Celi-De, namely, Mac Forcellaigh and select members of the Community of Ia besides came on behalf of the successor of Colum-cille, namely, Flaithbertach Ua Brolchain's acceptance of the abbacy of Ia, by advice of Somharlidh and of the Men of Airthir-Gaedhel and of Insi-Gall; but the successor of Patrick and the king of Ireland, that is, Ua Lochlainn and the nobles of Cenel-Eogain prevented him. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> "...Orcanus, Laird of Lamount, quha livet about the nyn hundredth > zeir of oure Lord." The 1661 charter begins by Sir James Lamont saying "John M'Gilligowie in Castletoune in the Brae of Mar, and Donald Mclzegowie servitour to Sir David Ogilvie, sone to the Earle of Airlie, and all the name of M'llzeguies, ar my trew native kindlie people and kinsmen" and that they descend from one of his predecessors who was called by the nickname "Gillidow". So the they are the MacGillidowie. MS1450 tells us of Murachaidh i gilladub, i.e. Muireachaidh nikcnamed Gilladubh, the son of Neill guirm abbot of Iona. Black - in his "Surnames of Scotland" under MacIldowie (MacGillaDuibh) tells of Macgilladubh the Hermit of Iona recorded in 1164. U1164.2: Select members of the Community of Ia, namely, the arch-priest, Augustin and the lector (that is, Dubsidhe) and the Eremite, Mac Gilla-duib and the Head of the Celi-De, namely, Mac Forcellaigh and select members of the Community of Ia besides came on behalf of the successor of Colum-cille, namely, Flaithbertach Ua Brolchain's acceptance of the abbacy of Ia, by advice of Somharlidh and of the Men of Airthir-Gaedhel and of Insi-Gall; but the successor of Patrick and the king of Ireland, that is, Ua Lochlainn and the nobles of Cenel-Eogain prevented him.

Thanks Bernard This is very interesting. I'm not sure how much you know about the Lamonts, but after the massacre in 1646, they seem to have more or less disappeared from the Cowal peninsula. There are signs (from birth registrations) that McPhadrick Lamonts and McQuein Lamonts (who I think are actually McEwen of Otter descendants) ended up in Moray. Many fled to Ireland. Judging from the number of Lamonts in Argyllshire today, not too many ever returned. My descendants did seem to, around 1730. By the way, I'm a Lamont bastard thrice removed. Anyway, I can see plenty work ahead. Thanks for your help so far. Cheers Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 17 May 2011 13:30 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] O'Cainus O'Cainus There talk of a family called Siol O Cain, linked (for a reason not known to me) to Mormaer of Moray. Donald O'Ceann who appears in a charter as ancestor of the Munros Anlesa O'Kyan is the said ancestor to the Buchanans and MacMillans They reprent the Clans Roich (Munro) and Clan Gillenhaol (Macmillan) of Siol O'Cain (I find no modern works on the subject.) http://www.fionamsinclair.co.uk/genealogy/HighlandClans/Munro.htm "The first known of the race is said to have been a certain Donald O'Ceann, of the time of Macbeth. The patronymic O'Ceann, Skene, in his Highlanders of Scotland, ingeniously converts into O'Cathan, and so makes out that the race is a branch of the great Clan Chattan or Siol O'Cain. It seems much more likely, however, that the name Donald O'Ceann is simply what it says - Donald, son of the Chief. The same word is found in the name of the contemporary Malcolm III, who was known as Ceannmore or Canmore, "great Chief", by his Gaelic subjects. The Munroes are also known among the Highlanders as Clan Rothich or Roich. >From this Donald O''Ceann, its first possessor, the territory on the north side of Cromarty Firth came to be known as Fearran Donuill, or Donald's Country. Foulis, or Fowlis, the actual seat of the Chief from then till now, is a local and personal name common in Scotland. There are parishes of Fowlis-Easter and Fowlis-Wester in Perthshire, and a family of Fowlises or Foulises were the owners from whom the ancestor of Lord Linlithgow in the reign of Charles I acquired by marriage the valuable mining property of Leadhills in Lanarkshire. Hugh Munro of Foulis, who died in 1126, is believed to have been a son of George, son of Donald O'Ceann. His son Robert, who is reckoned to have been the second laird or baron of Foulis, took part in the wars of David I and Malcolm IV, and died in 1164. It was Robert's heir, Donald (died 1192) who built the old tower of Foulis, and Donald's successor, another Robert, married a daughter of the Earl of Sutherland. It was to George, son of this pair, that, according to Nisbet's Heraldry, William, Earl of Sutherland, in the reign of Alexander II granted a charter which runs, "carissimo et fidelissimo consanguineo, Georgio Munro de Foulls". On the introduction of the feudal system, however, the Munroes had secured their possessions by accepting charters, not from the Earls of Sutherland but from their more immediate neighbours, the Earls of Ross. One of these charters, about 1350, expressly states that the lands of Easter Fowlis had belonged to the Munroes in free possession from the time of Donald O'Ceann. The reddendo mentioned for the lands of Pitlundie was a pair of white gloves or three pennies if required. " R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jerry, Great post! I've pointed this out numerous times on the R-L21 list, only to have people declare that it would be nonsense to have a lot of descendants of religious figures. I'd reckon it would be exactly the opposite, in that clerical types most likely had more descendants than peasant farmers. This is relevant to genealogy, as we have such figures as Saint Fergal (aka St Vergilius of Salzburg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergilius_of_Salzburg ) who are descendants of the Ui Neill, who was abbot at Aghaboe in Co Laois, and later was famous in the Holy Roman Empire. So finding some R-L21 M222+ in Salzburg, Austria and in the province of Carinthia - on todays Austria/Slovenia border, should be expected!!! BTW, don't forget the name: McAnespie = Mac an Aspaig = the Bishops's son Gillespie = Servant or follower of a Bishop = usually a descendant of said Bishop. Cheers, Paul On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:06 PM, <jerrykelly@att.net> wrote: > A chairde / Friends, > > As you know, celibacy was not a requirement of the early Church in Ireland > and Scotland. Instead, it was a special mark of sanctity chosen by few. > > I can't find the exact reference at the moment, wish I could, but many > monks > had as many as 3 wives in honor of the Patriarchs. Around the 8-9th > Centuries, the Irish church tried to convince the monks to keep it down to > 1 > wife, and got a lot of flak from the rank and file for defying Biblical > tradition. > > Here is a related comment from the law text known as Bretha Crólige: > > > > There is dispute in Irish law as to which is more proper, whether many > sexual unions or a single one: for the chosen people of God lived in > plurality of unions. (Kelly, Fergus. A Guide to Early Irish Law. Dublin: > Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1998. p. 71) > > > This non-celibate tradition is reflected by some of our surnames, > including: > > MacTaggart - Mac an tSagairt - Son of the Priest > MacAnerny - Mac an Airchinnigh - Son of the Airchinneach ('Erenagh' in > English) > MacNabb - Mac an Abbadh - Son of the Abbot > > Monasteries were handed down within the hereditary 'erenagh' families, some > of whom were royal. These families were expected to staff these > institutions with their descendants. Choice of leadership and ownership > was > by Féineachas ('Brehon Law'), within the electable derbh-fhine ('true > family' sharing common descent from a common great-grandfather). > Ecclesiastics were called by both God and blood, so the Church was strong > and constantly expanding, in contrast to what we see today. > > Examples of royal abbesses and abbots include St. Brighid, Abbess and > Bishop > of Cill Dara ('Kildare'). And, of course, Colm Cille. As you know, Colm > Cille was of the righ-damhna or 'stuff of kings' of the Cinéal Chonaill, > electable as their King at a time when the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill > of the North, especially the Cinéal Chonaill and Cinéal nEoghain) were busy > creating the High-Kingship of Ireland. > > Colm Cille remained celebate so his successors like Adamnán were close > relatives of his, also royal, rather than direct descendants. Right up > until the point that they were extinguished, the Columban daughter houses > were typically staffed at the top with close relatives of Colm Cille. Many > of these successors married and had children. Some of these in turn became > comh-arba ('heirs' or 'successors') of Colm Cille. > > I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, marriage by priests, monks, > and > nuns was common right up until the imposition of English Common Law in > 1603. > At that point, the territories owned by the erenagh families and all > properties owned by right of descent from married ecclesiastics were > escheated to the English crown on the basis of 'bastardry' - no legitimate > heir. > > Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. > > Best, > Jerry > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Many thanks, Paul. Very helpful. Also managed to find some good references in the last hour or so: According to the 9th Century Catalogue of the Saints of Ireland, the "most holy" Irish saints were the 350 non-celibate bishops who were the immediate successors of Patrick. [1] The excuse used by the Cambro-Normans for their 12th Century invasion was to bring Ireland back into line with the practices of the Roman Catholic Church. But, "in the Gaelic and Gaelicized area the monasteries had by 1400 already ceased to live a conventual life according to their rules and were assuming a form not unlike that of the Irish ecclesiastical establishments before the twelfth-century reforms. The abbots and their monks, like the secular clergy, abandoned all pretense of celibacy and openly married." [2] ________________________________ [1] McNeill, John T. The Celtic Churches - A History, A.D. 200 to 1200. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1974. p. 72 [2] Nicholls, Kenneth. Gaelic and Gaelicized Ireland in the Middle Ages. Gill History of Ireland Volume 4. Dublin: Gill and MacMillan, 1972. p. 107 Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Presswww.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Paul Conroy <pconroy63@gmail.com> To: jerrykelly@att.net; dna-r1b1c7 <DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 2:12:46 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] abbots, abbesses, and heirs Jerry, Great post! I've pointed this out numerous times on the R-L21 list, only to have people declare that it would be nonsense to have a lot of descendants of religious figures. I'd reckon it would be exactly the opposite, in that clerical types most likely had more descendants than peasant farmers. This is relevant to genealogy, as we have such figures as Saint Fergal (aka St Vergilius of Salzburg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergilius_of_Salzburg ) who are descendants of the Ui Neill, who was abbot at Aghaboe in Co Laois, and later was famous in the Holy Roman Empire. So finding some R-L21 M222+ in Salzburg, Austria and in the province of Carinthia - on todays Austria/Slovenia border, should be expected!!! BTW, don't forget the name: McAnespie = Mac an Aspaig = the Bishops's son Gillespie = Servant or follower of a Bishop = usually a descendant of said Bishop. Cheers, Paul On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:06 PM, <jerrykelly@att.net> wrote: A chairde / Friends, > >As you know, celibacy was not a requirement of the early Church in Ireland >and Scotland. Instead, it was a special mark of sanctity chosen by few. > >I can't find the exact reference at the moment, wish I could, but many monks >had as many as 3 wives in honor of the Patriarchs. Around the 8-9th >Centuries, the Irish church tried to convince the monks to keep it down to 1 >wife, and got a lot of flak from the rank and file for defying Biblical >tradition. > >Here is a related comment from the law text known as Bretha Crólige: > > > >There is dispute in Irish law as to which is more proper, whether many >sexual unions or a single one: for the chosen people of God lived in >plurality of unions. (Kelly, Fergus. A Guide to Early Irish Law. Dublin: >Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1998. p. 71) > > >This non-celibate tradition is reflected by some of our surnames, including: > >MacTaggart - Mac an tSagairt - Son of the Priest >MacAnerny - Mac an Airchinnigh - Son of the Airchinneach ('Erenagh' in >English) >MacNabb - Mac an Abbadh - Son of the Abbot > >Monasteries were handed down within the hereditary 'erenagh' families, some >of whom were royal. These families were expected to staff these >institutions with their descendants. Choice of leadership and ownership was >by Féineachas ('Brehon Law'), within the electable derbh-fhine ('true >family' sharing common descent from a common great-grandfather). >Ecclesiastics were called by both God and blood, so the Church was strong >and constantly expanding, in contrast to what we see today. > >Examples of royal abbesses and abbots include St. Brighid, Abbess and Bishop >of Cill Dara ('Kildare'). And, of course, Colm Cille. As you know, Colm >Cille was of the righ-damhna or 'stuff of kings' of the Cinéal Chonaill, >electable as their King at a time when the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill >of the North, especially the Cinéal Chonaill and Cinéal nEoghain) were busy >creating the High-Kingship of Ireland. > >Colm Cille remained celebate so his successors like Adamnán were close >relatives of his, also royal, rather than direct descendants. Right up >until the point that they were extinguished, the Columban daughter houses >were typically staffed at the top with close relatives of Colm Cille. Many >of these successors married and had children. Some of these in turn became >comh-arba ('heirs' or 'successors') of Colm Cille. > >I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, marriage by priests, monks, and >nuns was common right up until the imposition of English Common Law in 1603. >At that point, the territories owned by the erenagh families and all >properties owned by right of descent from married ecclesiastics were >escheated to the English crown on the basis of 'bastardry' - no legitimate >heir. > >Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. > >Best, >Jerry > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > >http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message >