[I did that rather than give the English equivalents, useful for someone trying to decipher abbreviated forms in Irish script.] I got that out of 'The Lamont Clan,1235- 1935' This would suggest that McKechnie or a genealogical adviser must have read the O'Cleary book. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 19 May 2011 23:43 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Question for Paul Conroy In a message dated 5/19/2011 1:36:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Thanks Paul Are you able to give a view on what this means? Muirchertaigh na ccochall ccrorcenn That means Muirchertach 'of the leather cloaks.' He was the son of Nial glundubh and the father of Domhnall 'of Armagh' (Arda macha). Those names were copied directly from the O'Clery Book of Genealogies pedigree for O'Neill. I did that rather than give the English equivalents, useful for someone trying to decipher abbreviated forms in Irish script. col. a) Genelach .H. Neill _Variant Readings_ (javascript:openPopWin("456.htm", 400, 400, "location,scrollbars", "cen", "cen")) 456. Toirrdhelbach luinech m Neill conallaigh m Airt oicc m Cuind m Enri m eogain m Neill oicc m Neill moir m Aedha m Domhnaill m Briain catha duinn m Neill ruaidh m Aeda (.i. an macam toinlesg) (col. b) m Muircertaigh muighe lugaidh m Taidhg glinne m Conchobair na fiodhbaide m Flaithbertaigh locha h-adair m Domhnaill (.i. an t-oghdamh) m Aedha athlamhain m Flaithbertaigh an trostain m Muircertaigh mhidhigh m Domhnaill arda macha m Muircertaigh na ccocal ccroicenn m Neill glunduibh m Aedha finnleith m Nell caille m Aedha oirdnide m Neill frosaigh m Ferghail m Maile duin (col. c) m Maile fithrigh m Aedha uairidhnigh m Domhnaill ilcealccaigh m Muircertaigh m Muiredaigh m Eoghain m Neill naighiallaigh. I still haven't heard anything about a possible revised reading on the new transcription. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

"Between the years 1275 and 1294 David of Innerlunan, with the consent of Gillicrist Macgilliduff, quit-claimed to the monks of Beauly his land of Ouchterwaddale (or Onachtervadal) extending to a half davach, which he held on lease from Gillicrist, who granted the land to the monks." There are question as to who this Gillicrist was, however none suggest that Gilladuibh was his literal father. The location is in the Firth of Forth, the other end the Great Glen from Iona. (John son of Christain appears later, c1307.)

In a message dated 5/19/2011 1:36:51 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Thanks Paul Are you able to give a view on what this means? Muirchertaigh na ccochall ccrorcenn That means Muirchertach 'of the leather cloaks.' He was the son of Nial glundubh and the father of Domhnall 'of Armagh' (Arda macha). Those names were copied directly from the O'Clery Book of Genealogies pedigree for O'Neill. I did that rather than give the English equivalents, useful for someone trying to decipher abbreviated forms in Irish script. col. a) Genelach .H. Neill _Variant Readings_ (javascript:openPopWin("456.htm", 400, 400, "location,scrollbars", "cen", "cen")) 456. Toirrdhelbach luinech m Neill conallaigh m Airt oicc m Cuind m Enri m eogain m Neill oicc m Neill moir m Aedha m Domhnaill m Briain catha duinn m Neill ruaidh m Aeda (.i. an macam toinlesg) (col. b) m Muircertaigh muighe lugaidh m Taidhg glinne m Conchobair na fiodhbaide m Flaithbertaigh locha h-adair m Domhnaill (.i. an t-oghdamh) m Aedha athlamhain m Flaithbertaigh an trostain m Muircertaigh mhidhigh m Domhnaill arda macha m Muircertaigh na ccocal ccroicenn m Neill glunduibh m Aedha finnleith m Nell caille m Aedha oirdnide m Neill frosaigh m Ferghail m Maile duin (col. c) m Maile fithrigh m Aedha uairidhnigh m Domhnaill ilcealccaigh m Muircertaigh m Muiredaigh m Eoghain m Neill naighiallaigh. I still haven't heard anything about a possible revised reading on the new transcription. John

Neill g..... .i. ab ite niell guirm iona abbot in transitu excelsis Niall the swarthy, learner abbot on Iona? Sandy

Question: Were the Mac Congaile's closely related to the Mac Fergaile's? If so, could the black-haired Niall in fact have been Niall Trossach? He spent time on Iona as a monk. Could he have become an abbot before he died (A.D. 784-ish)? If both of the above are true, it could explain the likenesses between my DNA and that of Larry Slavens. Niall Trossach was Niall mac Fergaile. Sleibine, abbot A.D. 752-766 was Sleibine mac Congaile. OR does .i. ab ite not perhaps mean that the person was on Iona studying to become an abbot? Sandy

It looks like it would be spellined in Modern Irish as Muircheartaigh na gcochall gcraiceann / of Muircheartach of the cowls of skin. He wore leather cowls instead of cowls of cloth. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, May 19, 2011 2:34:58 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Question for Paul Conroy Thanks Paul Are you able to give a view on what this means? Muirchertaigh na ccochall ccrorcenn Anyone? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: 18 May 2011 22:44 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Question for Paul Conroy Probably O'Cain On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:20 AM, <equisand@equiformratings.com> wrote: > If Adomnain (as in the Cain Adomnain) becomes the Law of Adomnan, does Cain > become Can or Cane? > > If so, I think that makes Orcanus = O'Canus and not O'Cainus as I suggested > yesterday. Does that make sense? > > > Sandy > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Paul Are you able to give a view on what this means? Muirchertaigh na ccochall ccrorcenn Anyone? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: 18 May 2011 22:44 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Question for Paul Conroy Probably O'Cain On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:20 AM, <equisand@equiformratings.com> wrote: > If Adomnain (as in the Cain Adomnain) becomes the Law of Adomnan, does Cain > become Can or Cane? > > If so, I think that makes Orcanus = O'Canus and not O'Cainus as I suggested > yesterday. Does that make sense? > > > Sandy > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> As I recall Constantine was a Romano-British personal name popular with the > Britons. It appears in a few versions of the Campbell pedigree along with > king Arthur and Uther pendragon. It may also appear in Welsh genealogies > appended to Nennius but I haven't bothered to check that. Constantine was also popular within the royal line of Cenel Gabhrain http://www.magoo.com/hugh/scotskings.html#pedigrees

Hi John, Many thanks for the correction on Trostan. I went astray on the accent. (Trostán = pilgrim's staff. Trostan = Pictish name.) Best, Jerry -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 4:51 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS. 1467 In a message dated 5/18/2011 12:14:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Both could be guesses. Does 'trostain' have a special meaning in genealogy? Flaithbertach an trostain is not a guess in that I am taking that directly from the O'Neill pedigree and merely comparing that to the transcription offered for the MS. 1467. The meaning is 'of the pilgrim's staff,' applied to this Flaithbertach because he took a pilgrimage to Rome. The point in this comparison is that Connstantine could be completely misread in the MS. except for a few vowels and consonants. As I recall Constantine was a Romano-British personal name popular with the Britons. It appears in a few versions of the Campbell pedigree along with king Arthur and Uther pendragon. It may also appear in Welsh genealogies appended to Nennius but I haven't bothered to check that. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I never suggested that Flaithbertach an trostain was a guess. What I suggested was that the Constantine and the trostain parts of a very old document that was very hard to read were guesses. Look at Constantine trostain much in the way that you compare old pedigrees generation by generation. I'm comparing two words, letter by letter. Gaps and guesses galore, not by you, but by two people who have done what I think is a wonderful job, and who have the admirable scholarly integrity to admit they may be wrong. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 18 May 2011 21:51 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS. 1467 In a message dated 5/18/2011 12:14:26 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Both could be guesses. Does 'trostain' have a special meaning in genealogy? Flaithbertach an trostain is not a guess in that I am taking that directly from the O'Neill pedigree and merely comparing that to the transcription offered for the MS. 1467. The meaning is 'of the pilgrim's staff,' applied to this Flaithbertach because he took a pilgrimage to Rome. The point in this comparison is that Connstantine could be completely misread in the MS. except for a few vowels and consonants. As I recall Constantine was a Romano-British personal name popular with the Britons. It appears in a few versions of the Campbell pedigree along with king Arthur and Uther pendragon. It may also appear in Welsh genealogies appended to Nennius but I haven't bothered to check that. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Just a thought. If, given a goodly amount of education, and with the electronic aids that we now have, I still can't get the word patronymics right (I concentrated very hard to get it right this time), why should we be surprised at older documents, hand-written, transcribed, handed down a number of generations, typed up, perhaps incorrectly, proof-read by someone 200 to 300 years after the original hand-written document was drawn up, perhaps having been subjected to rain, fire and the dog's breakfast, expect perfect clarity? I think I'll settle for McErachar being McFeachar. Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 18 May 2011 20:04 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacFeachair Oh my. Patronymics, patronymics, patronymics. Maybe if I repeat it often enough I'll get it right eventually. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 18 May 2011 19:08 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] MacFeachair What was the original surname of the original Lamont? I read of a charter calling him called Lawemundu Mac Greghere (after his grandfather). I read to that Mac Greghere was confused by some with Mac Gregor. Which makes me wonder about reference to Mac Gregors in Cowall area. Then I find authors saying that the Lamonts original named MacFhearchar or MacErachar. Which make me wonder about the M'Gilligowie proximity to the Farquharsons (the MacFeachair). R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Oh my. Patronymics, patronymics, patronymics. Maybe if I repeat it often enough I'll get it right eventually. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 18 May 2011 19:08 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] MacFeachair What was the original surname of the original Lamont? I read of a charter calling him called Lawemundu Mac Greghere (after his grandfather). I read to that Mac Greghere was confused by some with Mac Gregor. Which makes me wonder about reference to Mac Gregors in Cowall area. Then I find authors saying that the Lamonts original named MacFhearchar or MacErachar. Which make me wonder about the M'Gilligowie proximity to the Farquharsons (the MacFeachair). R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I've seen someone claim that the first surname used was McErachar. I'm not sure how Ferchar/Fearchar becomes Erachar though. Then Laumnon (Ladhman/Lagman) was used for one generation and then changed to Lawmanson or Lawmonson until around 1480 or so. Then there was a period of using patrynomics until eventually Lamont prevailed. Having said that, there are still Lamonds around. There's a Downie, possibly a McIlduie in earlier days in the Clam Lamont DNA site, plus a good few Downie or variants on a rapidly growing site of its own. It may be informative to compare Downies with Farquharsons. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 18 May 2011 19:08 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] MacFeachair What was the original surname of the original Lamont? I read of a charter calling him called Lawemundu Mac Greghere (after his grandfather). I read to that Mac Greghere was confused by some with Mac Gregor. Which makes me wonder about reference to Mac Gregors in Cowall area. Then I find authors saying that the Lamonts original named MacFhearchar or MacErachar. Which make me wonder about the M'Gilligowie proximity to the Farquharsons (the MacFeachair). R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 5/18/2011 1:08:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: What was the original surname of the original Lamont? I read of a charter calling him called Lawemundu Mac Greghere (after his grandfather). I read to that Mac Greghere was confused by some with Mac Gregor. Which makes me wonder about reference to Mac Gregors in Cowall area. Then I find authors saying that the Lamonts original named MacFhearchar or MacErachar. Which make me wonder about the M'Gilligowie proximity to the Farquharsons (the MacFeachair). There's an entire section on that in Memorials of Argyllshire, p. 193. There are two versions of an Act of Parliament in 1292 which is where the references occur. In one the names are written as McGreghaire, as in Lawemund Mc Greghaire. The old Clan McGregor writers therefore assumed this man was a McGregor. But in another version we find the same name as Lowemandum McEregher. Here we're back to the MacFeachar/McErewar confusion. The author states these are MacFeachars, not McGregors. John

What was the original surname of the original Lamont? I read of a charter calling him called Lawemundu Mac Greghere (after his grandfather). I read to that Mac Greghere was confused by some with Mac Gregor. Which makes me wonder about reference to Mac Gregors in Cowall area. Then I find authors saying that the Lamonts original named MacFhearchar or MacErachar. Which make me wonder about the M'Gilligowie proximity to the Farquharsons (the MacFeachair).

Probably O'Cain On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:20 AM, <equisand@equiformratings.com> wrote: > If Adomnain (as in the Cain Adomnain) becomes the Law of Adomnan, does Cain > become Can or Cane? > > If so, I think that makes Orcanus = O'Canus and not O'Cainus as I suggested > yesterday. Does that make sense? > > > Sandy > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

In a message dated 5/18/2011 12:33:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: I'm curious that you persist with de Buyt. I may have got it wrong but you seem to have Ladhmann alive at the same time as de Buyt, who, if you are right, would have to have been Ladhmann's great great grandfather. This is why I found Bute interesting. I had to re-check my notes from Memorials of Argyllshire. In 1292, by an ordinance of King John Baliol we find T"ra Lochlani MacKilcoli MacErewar T"ra Eneg MacErewar T"ra .....Insula de Boot. That is, the lands of Laumun, son of Malcolm, son of Ferchar, the lands of Angus, son of Ferchar, the lands.... Island ob Bute (Act. Parl. Scot., Vol. I.) The lands described here for Laumun mc Malcolm mc Ferchar are the lands of the island of Bute. Fearchar (alive ca. 1249) Malcolm laumun (alive 1292) I wish I had an exact date for the 1249 references but I don't. I don't see anything inconsistent in terms of dates from Fearchar to Laumun. >From my point of view as a disbeliever in the Anradan kindred pedigree, I don't know at which point it becomes truly historical in the Lamonts. There are clear records for a Fearchar son of Nigelli of Bute. I have no idea now if this is the same Fearchar as the other Fearchar (also of Bute) but it could be. If that's the case than why is his father called Duinnsleibhe in the pedigree? I know it becomes non historical at some point but I have no proof at which point. John

John, MDCCX = 1710 in Latin Cheers, Paul On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 9:05 PM, <Lochlan@aol.com> wrote: > I found a couple of references to the Nigelli of Buyt quoted in Memorials > of Argyllshire. The text is in Latin and I can't tell the date. They > were > dated to prior to 1249 by the author. In each reference the men were > witnesses. You can find a copy on Google Books if you want them. > > Ferchardo filio Nigelli de Buyt > p. 268 > Descriptions of the sheriffdoms of Lanark and Renfrew compiled about > M.DCC.X ... > edited by John Dillion, John Fullartoun > > Ferchardo de Buit, Duncano fratre suo > p.268 > Descriptions of the sheriffdoms of Lanark and Renfrew compiled about > M.DCC.X ... > edited by John Dillion, John Fullartoun > > Skene (Highlanders of Scotland) says the Lamonts were descended from an > Angus MacRory (ie, McDonald), who at about this time, was Lord of Bute. > > Any connection here with the R1a Lamonts who are said to match the > McDonalds? > > > > John > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks. So it's a name, not a title? Do you think Coustoun could have Pictish roots as well? The reason I ask is that Troustoun and Coustoun are on the Cowal peninsula. The locals pronounce the latter as 'Carsten', but I haven't heard Troustoun pronounced yet. Rothesay, on Bute, is pronounced 'Rossie'. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 18 May 2011 16:45 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS. 1467 Trostan / Drustan / Tristan Trostan / Drustan eventually yielded Tristan (as in Tristan & Isolde). It was originally a prestige Pictish name. Shows up as the name of Pictish kings if I remember correctly. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <equisand@equiformratings.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 1:12:54 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS. 1467 [Flaithbertaigh an trostain-----Flaitbertag mc Constantine?] Constantine trostain Both could be guesses. Does 'trostain' have a special meaning in genealogy? [Neill guirm, Abbot of Iona.] I'd be interested to know how confident they are about the Abbot of Iona bit. They've already made it clear that only the g in guirm is definite by making the uirm red. But it seems to me that if the Abbot of Iona bit is indeed accurate, then it cannot possibly have been Glundubh. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 17 May 2011 23:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] MS. 1467 If anyone is wondering I haven't heard back yet from the authors of the new transcription of MS. 1467. Here's a part of what the author said: "It could easily be 'glundubh'. I think perhaps we should change our reading here. To be honest it could be almost anything, and this is where the problem arises. We were trying to read the manuscript as it was, and not be influenced in advance by what was in other manuscripts. But here, where it is so unclear, I think you are right and it should be 'glundubh'." This was intended for someone else, not me. I think they got confused on who said what. But of course it can only refer to Nial glundubh. And the only place that name is likely to appear in the MS. 1467 is in the pedigree of the Lamonts. And the only place in the Lamont pedigree that is likely to appear is in place of Neill guirm, Abbot of Iona. At first I noticed no possible connection between their new transcription and the normal Anradan pedigree from other sources too numerous to mention. But I was struck by one phrase - Flaitbertach mhic Connstantine That struck me as odd for two reasons. The first is that Connstantine is a name seldom encountered in Gaelic pedigrees. In fact I think the only place I've ever seen it is in the old Welsh pedigrees. Secondy, it bears a superficial resemblence to the Flaitbertach an trostain of the traditional Lamont pedigrees in Irish MS. If you've looked at the graphic of the pedigree online you'll understand why Skene butchered it so badly and why the current editors admit to having so much trouble reading it. I can't make heads or tails of it myself. So I took the names from the traditional Lamont pedigree and lined them up with the new reading from the online transcription and was surprised to find they basically matched up at least in terms of generations. A few names were the same in each version. In fact only one name is missing completely - Aodh Athlaman. I'll re-post this from yesterday. Anradan--------------------------------Anradan Aedha athlamhain--------------- ? Flaithbertaigh an trostain-----Flaitbertag mc Constantine? Muircertaigh mhidhigh----------Muirdaigh Domhnaill arda macha ---------Domnaill mic Gillacrist Muircertaigh na ccocal ccroicenn--------Murachaidh ie Gilladubh Nial glundubh--------------------------------Nial guirm Notice that the names line up almost perfectly. Except Muirchertaigh is rendered Muirdaigh and Murachaidh in different spots. That is a very easy mistake to make with handwritten abbreviated names in Irish script and remember, we're dealing with a very poor copy to begin with. So I think we're just going to end up with another version of the traditional Anradan kindred pedigree, which would make perfect sense and would clear up a lot of the ambiguities in the text from Skene's time. That alone would make the new editor's efforts worthwhile even if they didn't get it quite right themselves. All any of us want is accuracy. Just as an example look at the authors "how to" page. You can see an abbreviation commonly used for Murchadh. That McH can be difficult to distinguish from other similar names especially in a poor quality manuscript. I've looked at the MacSweeney pedigree in the Book of Ballymote and all I see are a series of squiggles because just about every name in the pedigree is abbreviated as above.. I'm amazed anyone can decipher this stuff. My hat is off to them. I need a roadmap and a GPS to navigate these pedigrees. But at this point I do not know for sure what their opinion is and what they intend to do next if anything. If I hear anything I'll pass it along. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 5/18/2011 12:33:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: I'm curious that you persist with de Buyt. I may have got it wrong but you seem to have Ladhmann alive at the same time as de Buyt, who, if you are right, would have to have been Ladhmann's great great grandfather. I haven't progressed that far with this. I just think the Fearchar reference is interesting and falls into the general time period of the origin of the Lamonts as MacFearchar. I see nothing yet that links the Fearchar of Bute to the Fearchar of the Lamonts (Not yet anyway). Bute is mainly of interest because the Lamonts are said in some sources to have had possessions in Bute. The only date I have for Fearchar of Bute and his brother, Duncan, is prior to 1849. That date came from Memorials of Argyllshire. John