Ok I'm with you now. Yes, but I think it's more than "possible". I think they were all "of the Fearchar blood-line". I should have said, in my earlier posting, John, son of Cristin, son of Lamont or Lawmanson. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 20 May 2011 22:47 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Angus MacRory Do we really not see a possible connection to men all listed as holding lands of Bute? How many Fearchars of Bute do you think there were? Notice I said "possible." John In a message dated 5/20/2011 10:04:21 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Yes, and? R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I don't really understand what you're asking, but what I know about Ferchar/Fearchar and Lamont land on Bute is this: Ferchar/Fearchar don't seem to have lasted long as a popular first name and the last one I recall having read about was the Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii I mentioned earlier today, from a 1431 Charter. As I said in that posting though, I wonder whether Ferchado as used in that charter doesn't perhaps mean Johannis Christini Lammanii who was 'in the Ferchar line', so it may mean John son of Cristin son of Laumon, of the Fearchar blood-line. That makes sense at least in that we know that John was the 3rd Chief of Lamont, the one who supported Bailiol. Of Bute property, I do know that by around 1400, Houstoun definitely wasn't in Lamont hands, because around that time, 'Houstoun of Houstoun' was one of three Bute Lords killed by three or four Lamont brothers, allegedly for molesting the womenfolk of Lamont tackmen. The three (or four) Lamonts left the area in a hurry and the Court took a dim view of the Lamonts' actions, and stripped the Lamont family of even more land. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 20 May 2011 22:47 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Angus MacRory Do we really not see a possible connection to men all listed as holding lands of Bute? How many Fearchars of Bute do you think there were? Notice I said "possible." John In a message dated 5/20/2011 10:04:21 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Yes, and? R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A chairde / Friends, Did Gaelic scribes take shorthand? The answer is yes, but using their own system called nodanna. Gaelic scribes had to be able to copy a lot of manuscripts, and quickly. So they developed their own shorthand system using literally hundreds of symbols. So the problems we have translating almost all the old manuscripts which come down to us (including the one which John has kindly shown us this week) include damage to them (blackened with age), difference in alphabet (the g, r, s, d, and t are different, and h can be represented by a dot over the preceding consonant), and the fact that many or most or all of these old manuscripts are written in nodanna (Gaelic shorthand symbols). This shorthand writing system was used right into the 19th century, when Gaelic manuscripts finally began to be published using the printing press. Rather than come up with new hot-lead fonts containing hundreds of these additional ancient characters, the printers of that period decided it would be better to translate the shorthand back into the longhand and then print the longhand. The only nodanna which survived that process were the dot over the consonant to indicate an h after the consonant, the accent mark on the vowel (for example, á actually means aa), and 7 which comes from the Latin et and means agus (the word 'and' in English). I think there's a master list of nodanna on the internet somewhere but I couldn't find it this morning. But you can see a few examples at the bottom of http://www.akerbeltz.org/beagangaidhlig/gramar/grammar_shorthand.htm . There you'll see how to write cearr, lom, domhnall, son, peann, cúlaibh, lár, barr, athair, cóir, lucht, and agus using nodanna. A good place to get a very detailed feel for this is Timothy O'Neill's "The Irish Hand" (Dolmen Press, 1984). Timothy doesn't provide a master list either, but because of his many photographs of legible passages and long-form transcription of those passages, you can begin to develop your own list. Some years back, I was up to well over a hundred nodanna when I ran out of time and had to abandon the project. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press <http://www.druidpress.com> www.druidpress.com

Hi Sandy, In an American context, "Tory" means a supporter of the king during the American Revolution. The word is originally Gaelic, to/rai/, a pursuer, a hunter, an outlaw, a bandit. It became associated with the Cavaliers during the wars of the 1640s and then with the supporters of James II in the 1680s. So, it took on Royalist overtones. In opposition were the Whigs. Here in America, the Tories supported the King while the American revolutionaries did not, and so the revolutionaries were often called Whigs. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 3:23:20 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Thanks Jerry This is all fascinating to me. [But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders.] I've seen the word 'Tories' used in an historical context before but when I tried to find it again in cyberspace, I couldn't. Can you elaborate on who they were or on what the word originally meant? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 19:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Hi Sandy, One of the things underlined by most modern Scottish, Manx, and Irish scholars is that the Gaelic world in this period (up to the 17th-18th Century) was one cultural entity. Not one political entity, but one cultural entity. One facet of that culture was the written language used by the Gaelic learned classes including the scribes. It was basically the same. The aos da/na (people of arts - including not just scribes but also experts in Gaelic law, history, genealogy, praise poetry, epic saga, prophecy, etc.) were trained in rigorous da/mhscoileanna ('schools of good company'), usually called 'bardic schools' in English, which used the same basic curriculum. The aos da/na circulated amongst those schools in Ireland, Scotland, and Man in order to increase their learning. Irish scholars took refuge in Scotland after 1603, 1641, and 1691. The last of the Irish da/mhscoileanna relocated to Man after 1691. When I look at the 15th century Scottish manuscript John showed us this week, it's the same Gaelic used in Ireland in that period. That single cultural identity was broken by the combination of the destruction of the Gaelic order in Ireland in 1691, imposition of English rule on Man, and the destruction of the Gaelic order in Scotland in 1746. The written dialects (as diversions from the single learned standard) rose after that. But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders. I have a copy of the Sailm Dhaibhidh ('Psalms of David') in front of me as I write this. It was printed in Edinburgh in 1806 in the Scottish Gaelic of that time. It's very different from today's Scottish Gaelic. With very few exceptions, it's exactly the same as the 17th century Irish of Seathru/n Ce/itinn (called 'Geoffrey Keating' in English), the father of Modern Irish prose. Almost exactly the same, about 350 years after the manuscript John showed us. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 1:56:44 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Would I be correct in saying that you've described what happened in Ireland? We're talking here about a document thought to have been produced in Scotland around 1450. No doubt the Scottish scribes would have been influenced by developments in Ireland through continual migration, but do you suppose Gaelic (and Nodanna) could have developed a little differently over here? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 18:15 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, You're very welcome. Sandy wrote: "Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.?" No. Instead, these are 2 different words with different origins and different meanings which were not used for each other, but just happen to look something alike. Another example of similar-looking words. While trying to look up 'nodanna' on the internet this morning, I found a Sri Lankan comedy sketch called Api Nodanna. Almost the same in spelling, but no relation and no common meaning and no common use whatsoever. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 12:44:23 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.? I don't want to twist your words <grin>. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 15:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, Most or all Celtic scholars give the etymology of Domhnall from Archaic Irish: doman ualos world valor / valiant / mighty So the name means something like 'world-mighty' or 'world-valiant'. Irish lost the Indo-European -os ending (Ulysses, Oddyseus, Perkunas, Deus, etc.) in the transition from Archaic Irish to Old Irish round about the 5th Century A.D. or so, leaving us with Domnall Today that's Domhnall or, with the spelling change in Irish in the last 50 years, Do/nal. Gaelic words for lord are usually flaith, triath, and tiarna. Although Domhnall was/is a popular name amongst the Ui/ Ne/ill, it was/is also used by other lineages. Hope that's helpful, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 5:02:36 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I think a better explanation is that the name domnail was derived from Lord Neill or Lord Niall and that was how the descent from Niall was indicated. I think that means that Clan Donald were originally M222, not necessarily descended from Niall, but with a close blood-line link. Somerled, whose mother was Nordic, somehow discovered or suspected that his wife (did he have more than one wife?) had been impregnated by someone of Nordic blood, flew into a rage (but a long-lasting, bitter rage), and that's why he waged war on the very people from whom his mother was descended. There's M222 in McRory. Ruadhri McDonald. Somerled's son. His real son. His Nordic sons weren't actually his, and Somerled was M222. I think I need a cold shower. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 21 May 2011 08:23 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sandy, One of the things underlined by most modern Scottish, Manx, and Irish scholars is that the Gaelic world in this period (up to the 17th-18th Century) was one cultural entity. Not one political entity, but one cultural entity. One facet of that culture was the written language used by the Gaelic learned classes including the scribes. It was basically the same. The aos da/na (people of arts - including not just scribes but also experts in Gaelic law, history, genealogy, praise poetry, epic saga, prophecy, etc.) were trained in rigorous da/mhscoileanna ('schools of good company'), usually called 'bardic schools' in English, which used the same basic curriculum. The aos da/na circulated amongst those schools in Ireland, Scotland, and Man in order to increase their learning. Irish scholars took refuge in Scotland after 1603, 1641, and 1691. The last of the Irish da/mhscoileanna relocated to Man after 1691. When I look at the 15th century Scottish manuscript John showed us this week, it's the same Gaelic used in Ireland in that period. That single cultural identity was broken by the combination of the destruction of the Gaelic order in Ireland in 1691, imposition of English rule on Man, and the destruction of the Gaelic order in Scotland in 1746. The written dialects (as diversions from the single learned standard) rose after that. But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders. I have a copy of the Sailm Dhaibhidh ('Psalms of David') in front of me as I write this. It was printed in Edinburgh in 1806 in the Scottish Gaelic of that time. It's very different from today's Scottish Gaelic. With very few exceptions, it's exactly the same as the 17th century Irish of Seathru/n Ce/itinn (called 'Geoffrey Keating' in English), the father of Modern Irish prose. Almost exactly the same, about 350 years after the manuscript John showed us. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 1:56:44 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Would I be correct in saying that you've described what happened in Ireland? We're talking here about a document thought to have been produced in Scotland around 1450. No doubt the Scottish scribes would have been influenced by developments in Ireland through continual migration, but do you suppose Gaelic (and Nodanna) could have developed a little differently over here? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 18:15 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, You're very welcome. Sandy wrote: "Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.?" No. Instead, these are 2 different words with different origins and different meanings which were not used for each other, but just happen to look something alike. Another example of similar-looking words. While trying to look up 'nodanna' on the internet this morning, I found a Sri Lankan comedy sketch called Api Nodanna. Almost the same in spelling, but no relation and no common meaning and no common use whatsoever. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 12:44:23 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.? I don't want to twist your words <grin>. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 15:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, Most or all Celtic scholars give the etymology of Domhnall from Archaic Irish: doman ualos world valor / valiant / mighty So the name means something like 'world-mighty' or 'world-valiant'. Irish lost the Indo-European -os ending (Ulysses, Oddyseus, Perkunas, Deus, etc.) in the transition from Archaic Irish to Old Irish round about the 5th Century A.D. or so, leaving us with Domnall Today that's Domhnall or, with the spelling change in Irish in the last 50 years, Do/nal. Gaelic words for lord are usually flaith, triath, and tiarna. Although Domhnall was/is a popular name amongst the Ui/ Ne/ill, it was/is also used by other lineages. Hope that's helpful, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 5:02:36 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I think a better explanation is that the name domnail was derived from Lord Neill or Lord Niall and that was how the descent from Niall was indicated. I think that means that Clan Donald were originally M222, not necessarily descended from Niall, but with a close blood-line link. Somerled, whose mother was Nordic, somehow discovered or suspected that his wife (did he have more than one wife?) had been impregnated by someone of Nordic blood, flew into a rage (but a long-lasting, bitter rage), and that's why he waged war on the very people from whom his mother was descended. There's M222 in McRory. Ruadhri McDonald. Somerled's son. His real son. His Nordic sons weren't actually his, and Somerled was M222. I think I need a cold shower. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 21 May 2011 08:23 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sandy, You're very welcome. Sandy wrote: "Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.?" No. Instead, these are 2 different words with different origins and different meanings which were not used for each other, but just happen to look something alike. Another example of similar-looking words. While trying to look up 'nodanna' on the internet this morning, I found a Sri Lankan comedy sketch called Api Nodanna. Almost the same in spelling, but no relation and no common meaning and no common use whatsoever. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 12:44:23 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.? I don't want to twist your words <grin>. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 15:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, Most or all Celtic scholars give the etymology of Domhnall from Archaic Irish: doman ualos world valor / valiant / mighty So the name means something like 'world-mighty' or 'world-valiant'. Irish lost the Indo-European -os ending (Ulysses, Oddyseus, Perkunas, Deus, etc.) in the transition from Archaic Irish to Old Irish round about the 5th Century A.D. or so, leaving us with Domnall Today that's Domhnall or, with the spelling change in Irish in the last 50 years, Do/nal. Gaelic words for lord are usually flaith, triath, and tiarna. Although Domhnall was/is a popular name amongst the Ui/ Ne/ill, it was/is also used by other lineages. Hope that's helpful, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 5:02:36 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I think a better explanation is that the name domnail was derived from Lord Neill or Lord Niall and that was how the descent from Niall was indicated. I think that means that Clan Donald were originally M222, not necessarily descended from Niall, but with a close blood-line link. Somerled, whose mother was Nordic, somehow discovered or suspected that his wife (did he have more than one wife?) had been impregnated by someone of Nordic blood, flew into a rage (but a long-lasting, bitter rage), and that's why he waged war on the very people from whom his mother was descended. There's M222 in McRory. Ruadhri McDonald. Somerled's son. His real son. His Nordic sons weren't actually his, and Somerled was M222. I think I need a cold shower. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 21 May 2011 08:23 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think a better explanation is that the name domnail was derived from Lord Neill or Lord Niall and that was how the descent from Niall was indicated. I think that means that Clan Donald were originally M222, not necessarily descended from Niall, but with a close blood-line link. Somerled, whose mother was Nordic, somehow discovered or suspected that his wife (did he have more than one wife?) had been impregnated by someone of Nordic blood, flew into a rage (but a long-lasting, bitter rage), and that's why he waged war on the very people from whom his mother was descended. There's M222 in McRory. Ruadhri McDonald. Somerled's son. His real son. His Nordic sons weren't actually his, and Somerled was M222. I think I need a cold shower. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 21 May 2011 08:23 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

We have three complete 111-marker panels in the Ewing project, now. The results on markers 68-111 can be seen at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/431003/111-markerTable.pdf I am happy to send an Excel or csv file of these to anyone who would like to have that. The two of us in Group 1b ( http://dl.dropbox.com/u/431003/Group1bRelationshipDiagram.pdf) are known to be 6th cousins, once removed. We differ at three loci. The third man is in Group 1a, and though we know the men in that Group are closely related to the other Group 1 men, we do not know the conventional genealogical relationship. He differs from the two men in Group 1b at two and three loci, respectively. I have calculated a Ewing modal for the extended panel on the basis of just these three haplotypes. Two of the testees are at genetic distance 1 from this Ewing modal (considering just markers 68-111) and the third is at genetic distance 2. All three of these men exactly match one another at markers 38-67. These preliminary results suggest that this panel might be very useful to our project, if enough of our participants were willing to spring for the extra couple of hundred dollars it would cost to upgrade from 37 markers. Markers 38-67 have not been particularly helpful to us, partly because the Ewing modal exactly matches the R:M222+ modal at these markers and partly because there are no off-modal matches in markers 38-67 among any of the 24 men in the closely related Ewing Groups 1 and 2. I would be very interested to learn whether anyone has collected enough R:M222+ 111-marker haplotypes to calculate a credible R:M222+ modal for the extended panel, and if so, what it may be. David Ewing

I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy

Hi Sandy, Most or all Celtic scholars give the etymology of Domhnall from Archaic Irish: doman ualos world valor / valiant / mighty So the name means something like 'world-mighty' or 'world-valiant'. Irish lost the Indo-European -os ending (Ulysses, Oddyseus, Perkunas, Deus, etc.) in the transition from Archaic Irish to Old Irish round about the 5th Century A.D. or so, leaving us with Domnall Today that's Domhnall or, with the spelling change in Irish in the last 50 years, Do/nal. Gaelic words for lord are usually flaith, triath, and tiarna. Although Domhnall was/is a popular name amongst the Ui/ Ne/ill, it was/is also used by other lineages. Hope that's helpful, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 5:02:36 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I think a better explanation is that the name domnail was derived from Lord Neill or Lord Niall and that was how the descent from Niall was indicated. I think that means that Clan Donald were originally M222, not necessarily descended from Niall, but with a close blood-line link. Somerled, whose mother was Nordic, somehow discovered or suspected that his wife (did he have more than one wife?) had been impregnated by someone of Nordic blood, flew into a rage (but a long-lasting, bitter rage), and that's why he waged war on the very people from whom his mother was descended. There's M222 in McRory. Ruadhri McDonald. Somerled's son. His real son. His Nordic sons weren't actually his, and Somerled was M222. I think I need a cold shower. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 21 May 2011 08:23 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Stronalbanach, owned by Lamonts for literally hundreds of years, is about 1 mile north of modern day Minard, which seems close to Metfort, but I can't place it exactly. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 21 May 2011 05:36 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] O'Cainus How about after "Ic Doneill" on line 27 the entry "Ic Meilaert" ? Meallaird is Melfort or Melford 10 miles south of Oban R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

How about after "Ic Doneill" on line 27 the entry "Ic Meilaert" ? Meallaird is Melfort or Melford 10 miles south of Oban

In a message dated 5/20/2011 5:02:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Here's the rub : No matter what I do, I cannot see how the last person on the pedigree is a NEIL. I make him out to be Gillzuie, possibly an ancestor of one of the people Sir James Lamont was referring to. I can see how it could be mistaken for a Neil, but to me it looks like the 'G' has been mistaken as an 'e', and I suggest that the letter following the ll is a z, giving extra credence to it being Gillzuie when considered in conjunction with what Sir James said. However, if I then look at the person two positions higher up, I do indeed see a neill, pre-ceded by what looks like two 'd's but with inconsistent curls in the upper portion of the 'd's. I can't make out what follows the neill. Anyway, I think that this line has been misread as including a domnaill until now. Here's what I make of it. I put two versions online, one color, one grayscale. Each has it's own difficulties and virtues. Some things tend to disappear in the gray scale version. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/GRAY.jpg_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/GRAY.jpg) _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/COLOR.jpg_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/COLOR.jpg) If you want to manipulate these as suggested download the image and use a graphics program. I think the last person in the pedigree in line 29 is indeed a Nial. Following Nial you can read a g....ub. The authors of the online transcription took the ub to be ab, ie, an abbreviation for abbot. Line 28 is very hard to read. But line 27 clearly contains a form of Domhnall (Donaill?). Now look at how the editors of the online version transcribed the last line. mhic Niall guirm i. ab ite the "uirm" is in red. That means it's purely guesswork. What they could read is what I can read as described above. Neill g.....ub except they read "ab" for "ub." Don't expect to find mhic fully written out anywhere in the text. It generally precedes each line and looks like a .i. with a c over it. Or a small m with a c over it. I cannot make out much of this. But the more eyes looking at it the better. We need however to be looking at the same lines. John

Do we really not see a possible connection to men all listed as holding lands of Bute? How many Fearchars of Bute do you think there were? Notice I said "possible." John In a message dated 5/20/2011 10:04:21 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: Yes, and?

What I find quite amusing is that I've long believed that McIldubh's were descended from Lamont. If Sir James Lamont was right, it was the other way round. Lamonts are descended from Mac Gille Dubh's. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 20 May 2011 17:18 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] Iona - MacGuilaDuibh ancestors to the Lamonts? hief Here is a full list of MacGilleDuibh from Black's work under MacIldownie i.e. Mac Gille Duibh 1164 Macgilladuibh the Hermit of Iona 1242-1249 Nigel Mackegilduf witness to the quitclaim of Walter Campania of the lands of Dunduff in the parish of Maybole (founded by Duncan of Carrick) to the abbey of Melrose (in the reign of Alexander II) - what is the relation to the local O'Casduff 1275 Gillicrist Macgilliduff - consented to a quit-claim of the lands of Auchterwaddale to Priory of beauly, b'n 1461 Gilbert McIiduf - possessed a tenement in Dumfries, 1502 Doull MacGilleduf - a victim of the first hership of Petty, and mentioned in "A Genealogical Deduction of the Family of Rose of Kilravock" also McKeldowie (an example of Gilla becoming Kil as raise by Steve) - recorded Lochaber 1616, & Edinburgh 1697 John M' Ilduff - tenent Bordland 1642 Duncan M'Ildoui - tenent at Larichvain in parish of Inshaell, 1686 John Macgildhui - of Casteltoune, Kindrochit was appointed a church elder in 1701, in 1705 he became "apostate to popery". Black Under MacIldue - G. Mac Gille dhuibh (and may be a distortion of Mac Domhnaill Duibh??) mentions: Six M'lldeus from Appin are included in the list of those engaged in the '45 Macilduy is not uncommon in the southwest of Perthshire, where there is still a small group of Macilduys known as Clandaindouey (Clann an duibh). The name also occurred in the island of Gometra (the island was a possession of the Iona). McKeldowie 1616, Mc- illiduy 1715. "Black also notes that the Black surname appears as Mac Gille dhuibh, or 'son of the black lad,' which is Anglicized to Macilduy and Macildowie (1962, 78). " I also find: 1609 Neill Macilduy, a follower of Maclean of Dowart 1640's Walter Scot in "A legend of the wars of Montrose" refers to a messenger MacIlduy, While Henry Guthrie in his memoir (1702) names him as Allan MacIldowie of Lochaber While the 1592 Allane M'Kildowie is a Cameroon Chief and from the 1429 chief Domhnaill Duibh. The idea I read is that his surname is from Mac Coill Duibh. In 1600 it is written Allane Camrone M'Ouildowy. The Cameroon seem to have a confused history and also described as a confederacy of families. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

if you run through the 1265 Charter to do with the monks of Paisley, you'll see Howston (Houstoun) which is on Bute, and Prestwick and Turnbury in Ayrshire, to mention at just three pieces of land outside the Cowal peninsula. I know they also owned Stronalbanch which is north of Cowal (I think), slap bang in what is thought of by most as Campbell territory. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 18 May 2011 22:20 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Angus MacRory In a message dated 5/18/2011 12:33:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: I'm curious that you persist with de Buyt. I may have got it wrong but you seem to have Ladhmann alive at the same time as de Buyt, who, if you are right, would have to have been Ladhmann's great great grandfather. This is why I found Bute interesting. I had to re-check my notes from Memorials of Argyllshire. In 1292, by an ordinance of King John Baliol we find T"ra Lochlani MacKilcoli MacErewar T"ra Eneg MacErewar T"ra .....Insula de Boot. That is, the lands of Laumun, son of Malcolm, son of Ferchar, the lands of Angus, son of Ferchar, the lands.... Island ob Bute (Act. Parl. Scot., Vol. I.) here for Laumun mc Malcolm mc Ferchar are the lands of the island of Bute. The lands described Fearchar (alive ca. 1249) Malcolm laumun (alive 1292) I wish I had an exact date for the 1249 references but I don't. I don't see anything inconsistent in terms of dates from Fearchar to Laumun. >From my point of view as a disbeliever in the Anradan kindred pedigree, I don't know at which point it becomes truly historical in the Lamonts. There are clear records for a Fearchar son of Nigelli of Bute. I have no idea now if this is the same Fearchar as the other Fearchar (also of Bute) but it could be. If that's the case than why is his father called Duinnsleibhe in the pedigree? I know it becomes non historical at some point but I have no proof at which point. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

hief Here is a full list of MacGilleDuibh from Black's work under MacIldownie i.e. Mac Gille Duibh 1164 Macgilladuibh the Hermit of Iona 1242-1249 Nigel Mackegilduf witness to the quitclaim of Walter Campania of the lands of Dunduff in the parish of Maybole (founded by Duncan of Carrick) to the abbey of Melrose (in the reign of Alexander II) - what is the relation to the local O'Casduff 1275 Gillicrist Macgilliduff - consented to a quit-claim of the lands of Auchterwaddale to Priory of beauly, b'n 1461 Gilbert McIiduf - possessed a tenement in Dumfries, 1502 Doull MacGilleduf - a victim of the first hership of Petty, and mentioned in "A Genealogical Deduction of the Family of Rose of Kilravock" also McKeldowie (an example of Gilla becoming Kil as raise by Steve) - recorded Lochaber 1616, & Edinburgh 1697 John M' Ilduff - tenent Bordland 1642 Duncan M'Ildoui - tenent at Larichvain in parish of Inshaell, 1686 John Macgildhui - of Casteltoune, Kindrochit was appointed a church elder in 1701, in 1705 he became "apostate to popery". Black Under MacIldue - G. Mac Gille dhuibh (and may be a distortion of Mac Domhnaill Duibh??) mentions: Six M'lldeus from Appin are included in the list of those engaged in the '45 Macilduy is not uncommon in the southwest of Perthshire, where there is still a small group of Macilduys known as Clandaindouey (Clann an duibh). The name also occurred in the island of Gometra (the island was a possession of the Iona). McKeldowie 1616, Mc- illiduy 1715. "Black also notes that the Black surname appears as Mac Gille dhuibh, or 'son of the black lad,' which is Anglicized to Macilduy and Macildowie (1962, 78). " I also find: 1609 Neill Macilduy, a follower of Maclean of Dowart 1640's Walter Scot in "A legend of the wars of Montrose" refers to a messenger MacIlduy, While Henry Guthrie in his memoir (1702) names him as Allan MacIldowie of Lochaber While the 1592 Allane M'Kildowie is a Cameroon Chief and from the 1429 chief Domhnaill Duibh. The idea I read is that his surname is from Mac Coill Duibh. In 1600 it is written Allane Camrone M'Ouildowy. The Cameroon seem to have a confused history and also described as a confederacy of families.

[The lands described here for Laumun mc Malcolm mc Ferchar are the lands of the island of Bute.] Yes, and? I'm pretty sure the Lamonts are well known to have owned plenty of land on Bute, in the early days before they backed Baliol against the Bruce. Houstoun springs to mind, but let me check. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 18 May 2011 22:20 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Angus MacRory In a message dated 5/18/2011 12:33:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time, equisand@equiformratings.com writes: I'm curious that you persist with de Buyt. I may have got it wrong but you seem to have Ladhmann alive at the same time as de Buyt, who, if you are right, would have to have been Ladhmann's great great grandfather. This is why I found Bute interesting. I had to re-check my notes from Memorials of Argyllshire. In 1292, by an ordinance of King John Baliol we find T"ra Lochlani MacKilcoli MacErewar T"ra Eneg MacErewar T"ra .....Insula de Boot. That is, the lands of Laumun, son of Malcolm, son of Ferchar, the lands of Angus, son of Ferchar, the lands.... Island ob Bute (Act. Parl. Scot., Vol. I.) The lands described here for Laumun mc Malcolm mc Ferchar are the lands of the island of Bute. Fearchar (alive ca. 1249) Malcolm laumun (alive 1292) I wish I had an exact date for the 1249 references but I don't. I don't see anything inconsistent in terms of dates from Fearchar to Laumun. >From my point of view as a disbeliever in the Anradan kindred pedigree, I don't know at which point it becomes truly historical in the Lamonts. There are clear records for a Fearchar son of Nigelli of Bute. I have no idea now if this is the same Fearchar as the other Fearchar (also of Bute) but it could be. If that's the case than why is his father called Duinnsleibhe in the pedigree? I know it becomes non historical at some point but I have no proof at which point. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bernard Apropos Orcanus, I've attached two images. The first shows my computer set-up. It's multi-screen, so I can show different documents at the same time. Top left is from the Lamont papers, where Sir James Lamont talks in 1661 of a John M'Gilligowie and a Donald M'Ilzegowie. You'll remember that he goes on to talk of a Gillidow, son of Orcanus. Bottom left is the 'how to' page of the 1467 manuscript. It's there in the hope that it may help me recognise some of the symbols and abbreviations. Bottom right is where the Lamont pedigree stops. The second attachment is the same as bottom right, but zoomed. What I do is to zoom to various degrees and stand back, move around a little, trying to get the clearest image. I'm not sure how much you'll be able to see from the attachments, but you may be able to do on your own computer what I've done on mine. Here's the rub : No matter what I do, I cannot see how the last person on the pedigree is a NEIL. I make him out to be Gillzuie, possibly an ancestor of one of the people Sir James Lamont was referring to. I can see how it could be mistaken for a Neil, but to me it looks like the 'G' has been mistaken as an 'e', and I suggest that the letter following the ll is a z, giving extra credence to it being Gillzuie when considered in conjunction with what Sir James said. However, if I then look at the person two positions higher up, I do indeed see a neill, pre-ceded by what looks like two 'd's but with inconsistent curls in the upper portion of the 'd's. I can't make out what follows the neill. Anyway, I think that this line has been misread as including a domnaill until now. I'd be interested to hear what you can make of it. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 17 May 2011 13:30 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: [R-M222] O'Cainus O'Cainus There talk of a family called Siol O Cain, linked (for a reason not known to me) to Mormaer of Moray. Donald O'Ceann who appears in a charter as ancestor of the Munros Anlesa O'Kyan is the said ancestor to the Buchanans and MacMillans They reprent the Clans Roich (Munro) and Clan Gillenhaol (Macmillan) of Siol O'Cain (I find no modern works on the subject.) http://www.fionamsinclair.co.uk/genealogy/HighlandClans/Munro.htm "The first known of the race is said to have been a certain Donald O'Ceann, of the time of Macbeth. The patronymic O'Ceann, Skene, in his Highlanders of Scotland, ingeniously converts into O'Cathan, and so makes out that the race is a branch of the great Clan Chattan or Siol O'Cain. It seems much more likely, however, that the name Donald O'Ceann is simply what it says - Donald, son of the Chief. The same word is found in the name of the contemporary Malcolm III, who was known as Ceannmore or Canmore, "great Chief", by his Gaelic subjects. The Munroes are also known among the Highlanders as Clan Rothich or Roich. >From this Donald O''Ceann, its first possessor, the territory on the north side of Cromarty Firth came to be known as Fearran Donuill, or Donald's Country. Foulis, or Fowlis, the actual seat of the Chief from then till now, is a local and personal name common in Scotland. There are parishes of Fowlis-Easter and Fowlis-Wester in Perthshire, and a family of Fowlises or Foulises were the owners from whom the ancestor of Lord Linlithgow in the reign of Charles I acquired by marriage the valuable mining property of Leadhills in Lanarkshire. Hugh Munro of Foulis, who died in 1126, is believed to have been a son of George, son of Donald O'Ceann. His son Robert, who is reckoned to have been the second laird or baron of Foulis, took part in the wars of David I and Malcolm IV, and died in 1164. It was Robert's heir, Donald (died 1192) who built the old tower of Foulis, and Donald's successor, another Robert, married a daughter of the Earl of Sutherland. It was to George, son of this pair, that, according to Nisbet's Heraldry, William, Earl of Sutherland, in the reign of Alexander II granted a charter which runs, "carissimo et fidelissimo consanguineo, Georgio Munro de Foulls". On the introduction of the feudal system, however, the Munroes had secured their possessions by accepting charters, not from the Earls of Sutherland but from their more immediate neighbours, the Earls of Ross. One of these charters, about 1350, expressly states that the lands of Easter Fowlis had belonged to the Munroes in free possession from the time of Donald O'Ceann. The reddendo mentioned for the lands of Pitlundie was a pair of white gloves or three pennies if required. " R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Just curious if one of the modern versions of Gillicrist, Gilchrist etc could be Kilcrease. That is my grandson's surname. Perhaps I'll get the young lad tested, his family says they are Scots. Regards, Steve > From: bernardmorgan@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 03:10:17 +0000 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Iona - MacGuilaDuibh ancestors to the Lamonts? > > > > "Between the years 1275 and 1294 David of Innerlunan, with the consent of Gillicrist Macgilliduff, quit-claimed to the monks of Beauly his land of Ouchterwaddale (or Onachtervadal) extending to a half davach, which he held on lease from Gillicrist, who granted the land to the monks." > > There are question as to who this Gillicrist was, however none suggest that Gilladuibh was his literal father. The location is in the Firth of Forth, the other end the Great Glen from Iona. > > (John son of Christain appears later, c1307.) > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message