In a message dated 5/22/2011 9:12:57 A.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: [How about after "Ic Doneill" on line 27 the entry "Ic Meilaert" ? Further reading I correct myself to "Ic Meilacr" (I cannot tell if a "t" runs into the curve of the "r"), so I am closer to original transcription of "gillacrist". I am no experted at reading Gaelic manuscripts, however I still struggling to see "gillacrist". After the Mhic in the middle of line 27, there seems to be an M followed by what looks like somewhat like an "e". This conflict with what I would have expected to have seen as Gillacrist. (Maybe what I see as a possible "t" at the end is just a shorthand line above the "r".) It's too bad we don't have a better clearer manuscript to work with. If we've looked at the examples from Ballymote and Lecan we know what a good manuscript looks like. I don't see anything clear at all following Donaill in line 27. I do not see a mic or ic. If this is a version of the traditional Anradan descent one would expect not a mic following Donaill but something like Ard macha. I can possibly see that a little in line 27 but nothing definite. I think there definitely is an m following some distance after Donaill - but I see three letters prior to that - which just could be Ard. But then maybe I'm seeing what I expect to see from the traditional pedigree. If we could nail down at least one line in the pedigree we'd have an answer because the traditional Anradan pedigree is so well known. The last line is a real puzzle to me (Line 27). I clearly see a Neill followed closely by a g. I'm sure that's how Skene came up with Nialgusa in this version. Yet if you look at Ballymote and Lecan the g in glundubh also closely follows the word Niall but in this case it's clearly two separate words. I can also see how the online editors came up with Nial guirm ab. ite (Abbot of Iona). There is something following the ub or ab which is not expected from a line ending in Nial glundubh. I think that's what Skene called Alberice. In Ballymote Nial glundubh appears as Neillgl...d. That may be in the MS. 1467 but there is something after that. In Lecan the same name is Neill gl. duibh. I don't know if I truly see that or not in 1467 but if so there is still something tagged on at the end. John

I have a half-brother who is about twice my size. Because of his size I call him Fullbro and he calls me Harfa. He is less than half my age, so we don't know each other as well as brothers normally know each other. I've been trying to contact him ever since you posted the link to MS 1467, on a hunch. Eventually, I called my step-mother this morning, who I call Sis because she's about my age. Sis tells me Fulbro is something of an expert in Nodanna. Not a bad hunch. Anyway, it seems Fullbro normally calls Sis of a Sunday evening so I may be in luck. I remember him telling me some years back that a Gaelic poet who was from Ireland but who had moved to Scotland was tutoring him in something. So he's quite well connected and may be able to help. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 22 May 2011 15:06 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] Did Gaelic scribes take shorthand? (Nodanna) > [How about after "Ic Doneill" on line 27 the entry "Ic Meilaert" ? Further reading I correct myself to "Ic Meilacr" (I cannot tell if a "t" runs into the curve of the "r"), so I am closer to original transcription of "gillacrist". I am no experted at reading Gaelic manuscripts, however I still struggling to see "gillacrist". After the Mhic in the middle of line 27, there seems to be an M followed by what looks like somewhat like an "e". This conflict with what I would have expected to have seen as Gillacrist. (Maybe what I see as a possible "t" at the end is just a shorthand line above the "r".) What is clear is the MS1467 pedigree for the MacLadhmainn does match any other pedigrees for the descendants of Anrathan. I highlight the differences below in bold: Ballymote: Mc. Suibne Conachtaigh Aedha alaind renab- burrci m. Andrathan m. Aeda athloman cacomraig- Clann Neill m. Flaithbertaig i trosdan m. Muircertaigh m. Domnaill m. Muircertaig na .c.c. m. Neill glunduibh. MS1467: MacLadhmainn Aed alainn .i. buirce mhic Anradin mhic Flaitbertaig mhic Connstan mhic Muiredhagh ----?---- mhic Domnaill mhic Gillacrist mhic Murachaidh .i. Gilladub mhic Neil Guirm .i. abite I can see clearly a symbol of mhic after Domnaill (line 27) and most likely after Flaitbertaig (line 25); these generations are missing from all other pedigrees. While the other pedigrees include Aeda athloman who does not appear in the MS1467 pedigrees (noticably missing from the MacLadhmain or MacEoghain pedigrees (on the first folio)). The way the mhic Connstan and mhic Gillacrist are made as double entries on the lines, does make the pedigree similar to Irish manuscript versions. Yet the undoubtably additional generation with mhic "Gillacrist" and the missing generation of Aeda athloman makes MS1467 unlike any other pedigree of the Scottish families. Why the difference? R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

David, I had previously derived a Modal for those markers, and agree with you completely. Three Griersons are under test at the moment (incomplete), but there are already indications that the following off-modals have survived the 600 year split between the families: 710=36, 533=12, YGataA10=14, 712=22, and 715=23. Millican 135550 also carries three of these markers (as he does 3 of our off-modals among markers 1-67). I take this as further validation of my postulated M222 Nith subset of M222. I'll put up a revised chart when all test results are in. David Grierson in Melbourne On 22/05/2011 2:48 PM, David Ewing wrote: > I had a look on the FTDNA R:M222 Project website and captured 18 complete > 111-marker haplotypes. I calculated a modal on just these for markers 68 - > 111. The result is at > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/431003/68-111_M222Modal.xls > > Then I compared this R:M222 modal with the Ewings at > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/431003/111-markerTable.pdf > > Clearly, we don't have enough data to reach anything like reliable > conclusions, but it looks like at least the branch of Ewings represented by > the three Ewing men who have full 111-marker results have two additional > markers off-modal for R:M222. It looks like some partial results on the > extended panel are coming in, so maybe we'll have more M222 haplotypes soon, > and we are also expecting a couple of more Ewings to upgrade soon. We'll see > how this holds up. > > David Ewing > R1b1c7 Research and Links:

> [How about after "Ic Doneill" on line 27 the entry "Ic Meilaert" ? Further reading I correct myself to "Ic Meilacr" (I cannot tell if a "t" runs into the curve of the "r"), so I am closer to original transcription of "gillacrist". I am no experted at reading Gaelic manuscripts, however I still struggling to see "gillacrist". After the Mhic in the middle of line 27, there seems to be an M followed by what looks like somewhat like an "e". This conflict with what I would have expected to have seen as Gillacrist. (Maybe what I see as a possible "t" at the end is just a shorthand line above the "r".) What is clear is the MS1467 pedigree for the MacLadhmainn does match any other pedigrees for the descendants of Anrathan. I highlight the differences below in bold: Ballymote: Mc. Suibne Conachtaigh Aedha alaind renab– burrci m. Andrathan m. Aeda athloman cacomraig– Clann Neill m. Flaithbertaig i trosdan m. Muircertaigh m. Domnaill m. Muircertaig na .c.c. m. Neill glunduibh. MS1467: MacLadhmainn Aed alainn .i. buirce mhic Anradin mhic Flaitbertaig mhic Connstan mhic Muiredhagh ----?---- mhic Domnaill mhic Gillacrist mhic Murachaidh .i. Gilladub mhic Neil Guirm .i. abite I can see clearly a symbol of mhic after Domnaill (line 27) and most likely after Flaitbertaig (line 25); these generations are missing from all other pedigrees. While the other pedigrees include Aeda athloman who does not appear in the MS1467 pedigrees (noticably missing from the MacLadhmain or MacEoghain pedigrees (on the first folio)). The way the mhic Connstan and mhic Gillacrist are made as double entries on the lines, does make the pedigree similar to Irish manuscript versions. Yet the undoubtably additional generation with mhic "Gillacrist" and the missing generation of Aeda athloman makes MS1467 unlike any other pedigree of the Scottish families. Why the difference?

John I'm now convinced that you are right about the Lamont pedigree as suggested in MS1467 being seriously flawed. I think there are possibly as many as 6 errors. However, I spent about 20 years in the financial markets. I don't think many would suggest that the markets are short of liars. So I've spent about 20 years of my life trying to separate lies from truths. One thing that stands out is that skilful liars tend to camouflage their lies with truths. They also don't lie unless necessary to achieve some gain. If we view the pedigree in this light (and I think it is fair to think that seanachies were, at the very least, expected to be skilful in their lying) it seems logical to me that the pedigree is a mixture of the truth, some deliberate lies, and some unintended errors. And it may be able to glean some of the truths from the whole. To my mind, we can accept without any doubt that Laumon was the son of Ferchar. That's clear from the Charter about the lands that the Paisley monks were granted use of. Then, I think we can assume that Sir James Lamont was truthful in his 1661 declaration about the Gille Dubhs. The man had spent the previous 15 years either imprisoned or on the run. His life was almost ruined and I don't think could have been in the frame of mind to concoct a fancy pedigree. In any event, he claimed nothing fancy, just that he had an ancestor called Orcanus, and another one called Gille Dubh. That's where I'm going to start. Sandy

Hi Sandy, I did you a disservice by not explaining why there's such unanimity as to the meaning of Domhnall and other early Gaelic names. It's because these are warrior-names in a living language in an heroic culture. Like the American Indians, they were walking around with names that really meant something important, not only to themselves but to everyone they met. And most of those names are still understood in plain Gaelic by Gaelic-speakers today. Imagine going back in a time machine to 1876 and trying to tell Sitting Bull that his nickname of "Slon-he" doesn't mean 'Slow' but instead means "He is healthy" because if sorta looks like Sla/n e/ in Irish if we fool around with the spelling and leave out a character or two and some accent marks. Or telling him that the name of his Hunkpapa tribe of the Lakota doesn't mean 'Head of the Circle' but instead means "Hunky (handsome) Father" because that's what Hunkpapa means in English slang. As you know, Sitting Bull wouldn't buy it. Gaelic isn't dead or mysterious. The Domhan in Domhnall still means 'world'. Si/obha/n still means 'White (female member of the supernatural) Sidh-Folk. Flaithbheartach still means 'Lordly-Deeds' in an adjectival form. Fearghal still means 'Man-Heat' (as in the heat of battle). The goddess-name Badhbh still means 'scald-crow'. Colm Cille's adult name still means 'Dove of (the monastic) Cell'. It's believed that his childhood name was Crimthann - 'Fox'. Dubhghall Albanach still means 'Scottish Black(-Haired) Foreigner', who probably came from Ireland, as I think John already pointed out, because you wouldn't bother to call anybody in Gaelic Scotland 'Albanach' because EVERYBODY in Gaelic Scotland is 'Albanach'. In Gaelic Scotland, the epithet "Albanach" offers no information. Mac an Bha/ird still means 'Son of the Praise-Poet'. And so forth. When a Gaelic-speaker hears most of these names, their meanings are just as plain as an English-speaker hearing the Viking name of Bare-Knee Shield-Splitter Thor's-son. Hope that's helpful. Apologies for not offering a better explanation earlier. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sun, May 22, 2011 1:48:08 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Thanks Jerry Can we step back a little? 'na' means 'of' in Gaelic. Somerled is usually referred to as Donal(d), Lord of the Isles. Write down a d but with the top part bent facing left, almost horizontally. Write down an 'o' with a tilde on top Leave a space Write down 'na' Leave a space Write down 'il' You should have do na il but with changes as indicated. The tilde means you must place an 'm' after the 'o' so we now have dom na il which contracts to domnail Surely that has to be nodanna for Lord of the Isles? Domnail/Donald, Lord of the isles? il as in il da sol Used as in Eureka, I've found it Greek, then English Gaelic (albeit nodanna), then English Co-incidence? I doubt it. I think the scholars need to revise their thinking. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 21:24 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Hi Sandy, In an American context, "Tory" means a supporter of the king during the American Revolution. The word is originally Gaelic, to/rai/, a pursuer, a hunter, an outlaw, a bandit. It became associated with the Cavaliers during the wars of the 1640s and then with the supporters of James II in the 1680s. So, it took on Royalist overtones. In opposition were the Whigs. Here in America, the Tories supported the King while the American revolutionaries did not, and so the revolutionaries were often called Whigs. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 3:23:20 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Thanks Jerry This is all fascinating to me. [But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders.] I've seen the word 'Tories' used in an historical context before but when I tried to find it again in cyberspace, I couldn't. Can you elaborate on who they were or on what the word originally meant? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 19:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Hi Sandy, One of the things underlined by most modern Scottish, Manx, and Irish scholars is that the Gaelic world in this period (up to the 17th-18th Century) was one cultural entity. Not one political entity, but one cultural entity. One facet of that culture was the written language used by the Gaelic learned classes including the scribes. It was basically the same. The aos da/na (people of arts - including not just scribes but also experts in Gaelic law, history, genealogy, praise poetry, epic saga, prophecy, etc.) were trained in rigorous da/mhscoileanna ('schools of good company'), usually called 'bardic schools' in English, which used the same basic curriculum. The aos da/na circulated amongst those schools in Ireland, Scotland, and Man in order to increase their learning. Irish scholars took refuge in Scotland after 1603, 1641, and 1691. The last of the Irish da/mhscoileanna relocated to Man after 1691. When I look at the 15th century Scottish manuscript John showed us this week, it's the same Gaelic used in Ireland in that period. That single cultural identity was broken by the combination of the destruction of the Gaelic order in Ireland in 1691, imposition of English rule on Man, and the destruction of the Gaelic order in Scotland in 1746. The written dialects (as diversions from the single learned standard) rose after that. But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders. I have a copy of the Sailm Dhaibhidh ('Psalms of David') in front of me as I write this. It was printed in Edinburgh in 1806 in the Scottish Gaelic of that time. It's very different from today's Scottish Gaelic. With very few exceptions, it's exactly the same as the 17th century Irish of Seathru/n Ce/itinn (called 'Geoffrey Keating' in English), the father of Modern Irish prose. Almost exactly the same, about 350 years after the manuscript John showed us. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 1:56:44 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Would I be correct in saying that you've described what happened in Ireland? We're talking here about a document thought to have been produced in Scotland around 1450. No doubt the Scottish scribes would have been influenced by developments in Ireland through continual migration, but do you suppose Gaelic (and Nodanna) could have developed a little differently over here? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 18:15 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, You're very welcome. Sandy wrote: "Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.?" No. Instead, these are 2 different words with different origins and different meanings which were not used for each other, but just happen to look something alike. Another example of similar-looking words. While trying to look up 'nodanna' on the internet this morning, I found a Sri Lankan comedy sketch called Api Nodanna. Almost the same in spelling, but no relation and no common meaning and no common use whatsoever. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 12:44:23 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.? I don't want to twist your words <grin>. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 15:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, Most or all Celtic scholars give the etymology of Domhnall from Archaic Irish: doman ualos world valor / valiant / mighty So the name means something like 'world-mighty' or 'world-valiant'. Irish lost the Indo-European -os ending (Ulysses, Oddyseus, Perkunas, Deus, etc.) in the transition from Archaic Irish to Old Irish round about the 5th Century A.D. or so, leaving us with Domnall Today that's Domhnall or, with the spelling change in Irish in the last 50 years, Do/nal. Gaelic words for lord are usually flaith, triath, and tiarna. Although Domhnall was/is a popular name amongst the Ui/ Ne/ill, it was/is also used by other lineages. Hope that's helpful, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 5:02:36 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I think a better explanation is that the name domnail was derived from Lord Neill or Lord Niall and that was how the descent from Niall was indicated. I think that means that Clan Donald were originally M222, not necessarily descended from Niall, but with a close blood-line link. Somerled, whose mother was Nordic, somehow discovered or suspected that his wife (did he have more than one wife?) had been impregnated by someone of Nordic blood, flew into a rage (but a long-lasting, bitter rage), and that's why he waged war on the very people from whom his mother was descended. There's M222 in McRory. Ruadhri McDonald. Somerled's son. His real son. His Nordic sons weren't actually his, and Somerled was M222. I think I need a cold shower. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 21 May 2011 08:23 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

["Fearghus Ó Fearghail identifies himself quite clearly on f. 1v. Other notes by him, or by Rudhraidhe Ó Fearghail (his father or grandfather), appear at ff. 6v, 7v, 9v, 10v, 12v, 17r, 21v and 25v. Notes by another Irishman well known to have travelled in Scotland, Fearghal Óg Mac an Bháird (fl. 1583– 1608), appear on ff. 10v (?) and 25v. This allows us to say that, whereas it was clearly Dubhghall Albanach himself who brought the ‘1467 ms’ to Scotland, it must have been Mac an Bháird or an Ó Fearghail who brought the ‘ Broad Book’ from Ireland, and it would have been an Ó Fearghail who put them together."] Do you think there's any significance in the fact that Stronalbanach, near Inverary, is known to have been owned by the Lamonts for hundreds of years, and that Bernard suggests as follows: [How about after "Ic Doneill" on line 27 the entry "Ic Meilaert" ? Meallaird is Melfort or Melford 10 miles south of Oban] Ten miles south of Oban places Meallaird very close to Stronalbanach. It could just be co-incidence, but I can't help wondering about Dubhghall Albanach. Who was he? Also, who was Fearghal Mac an Bhaird? This is becoming very interesting. Could this in any way mean that Niall guarm is actually Niall Frossach (ie mac Fergaile)? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 21 May 2011 23:36 To: jerrykelly@att.net; dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Did Gaelic scribes take shorthand? (Nodanna) Has anyone read the history of the manuscript as supplied by the Blacks? "The first section, folios 1–9, was written in 1467 by Dubhghall Albanach mac mhic Cathail (‘Scottish Dugald son of the son of Cathal’). Judging from his name and his interests, he was clearly a Scottish Gael, probably a member of the MacMhuirich bardic family (whose most characteristic name in a later period was Cathal) and a native of Kintyre, the principal base from which his family served the Lords of the Isles until 1490 as poets and historians." This section (folio 1-9) includes the genealogies. I wonder about the conclusion that he was Scottish though. I've seen Albanach in numerous Irish genealogies in O'Clery and it seems in those cases to imply "fostered in Scotland" or at least some connection with Scotland for an Irishman. The MacMhuirich family, bards to the McDonalds, were known to be Irish. Can that be what Albanach refers to? "The Highland genealogies on the first folio appear to have been copied, at least partly by dictation, from a text dating from about 1400. However, the fact that they are untidily crushed into the folio in irregular columns of close script (note the way the scribe returns from the end of column bc at f. 1v to fill up column c, lines 1–16) suggests that until now f. 1 had been left blank as a cover for the rest of the manuscript, and that it was being hastily employed as the only available material on which to write the text – very much the modern ‘back of an envelope’. This would point to 1467 or after as the date of writing, and would make it likely that the genealogies were written in Scotland on Dubhghall’s return. In confirmation of this it may be noted that the only marginalia post-dating Dubhghall in ff. 1– 9, and the only marginalia of any kind on f. 1, are by two hands familiar in Scottish manuscripts, those of Fearghus Ó Fearghail and John Beaton. " Dubhgall's return This is explained by a prior paragraph. "Dubhghall gives us his own name at folios 3r, 5r, 7r and 8r. At folio 7r he adds that he is writing in the presence of Elizabeth Butler in what he calls baile I Buagh—, presumably for baile Uí Bhuadhaigh or baile Uí Bhuadhacháin. The location of this place is strongly suggested by the fact that the Butlers were earls of Ormond (Co. Tipperary)." So the MS. was written in Ireland? And does the material date to about 1400 in Ireland? If so the only sources I know would be the Books of Ballymote and Lecan, dated to about 1400 or a little before. "Fearghus Ó Fearghail identifies himself quite clearly on f. 1v. Other notes by him, or by Rudhraidhe Ó Fearghail (his father or grandfather), appear at ff. 6v, 7v, 9v, 10v, 12v, 17r, 21v and 25v. Notes by another Irishman well known to have travelled in Scotland, Fearghal Óg Mac an Bháird (fl. 1583– 1608), appear on ff. 10v (?) and 25v. This allows us to say that, whereas it was clearly Dubhghall Albanach himself who brought the ‘1467 ms’ to Scotland, it must have been Mac an Bháird or an Ó Fearghail who brought the ‘ Broad Book’ from Ireland, and it would have been an Ó Fearghail who put them together." Reading this has entirely changed my thinking on the source of the pedigrees in the MS. 1467. I now think they were Irish originals, written in Ireland, probably in the Books of Ballymote and Lecan, and carried to Scotland. Since the only version in Irish manuscript of this time are for the MacSweeneys I think (as many Irish historians have said) they were invented specifically for them when they settled in Donegal c. 1345. In attempting to decipher the script of the MS. 1467 you would do well to consider the MacSweeney pedigrees in Ballymote and Lecan, both of which appear in my writeup of the Anradan kindred. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/anradan.htm_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/anradan.htm) I am going to have to revise this material on the basis of the new transcription. If nothing else it makes it abundantly clear that Skene's original transcription containing a Nialgusa was wrong; a transcription that appeared to link the Lamonts and the rest of the Anradan kindred to the same stock as the McDonalds. I do not know yet what I will use in it's place. It's a logical deduction that the MS. 1467 should contain a pedigree identical or nearly identical to that found in MacSweeney in Ballymote and Lecan. And that would contain a descent from Nial glundubh. I am not yet sure that can be identified with certainty in the MS. 1467. Somewhere I have a copy of the MacSweeney pedigree from Ballymote. I'll see if I can find it. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Jerry Can we step back a little? 'na' means 'of' in Gaelic. Somerled is usually referred to as Donal(d), Lord of the Isles. Write down a d but with the top part bent facing left, almost horizontally. Write down an 'o' with a tilde on top Leave a space Write down 'na' Leave a space Write down 'il' You should have do na il but with changes as indicated. The tilde means you must place an 'm' after the 'o' so we now have dom na il which contracts to domnail Surely that has to be nodanna for Lord of the Isles? Domnail/Donald, Lord of the isles? il as in il da sol Used as in Eureka, I've found it Greek, then English Gaelic (albeit nodanna), then English Co-incidence? I doubt it. I think the scholars need to revise their thinking. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 21:24 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Hi Sandy, In an American context, "Tory" means a supporter of the king during the American Revolution. The word is originally Gaelic, to/rai/, a pursuer, a hunter, an outlaw, a bandit. It became associated with the Cavaliers during the wars of the 1640s and then with the supporters of James II in the 1680s. So, it took on Royalist overtones. In opposition were the Whigs. Here in America, the Tories supported the King while the American revolutionaries did not, and so the revolutionaries were often called Whigs. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 3:23:20 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Thanks Jerry This is all fascinating to me. [But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders.] I've seen the word 'Tories' used in an historical context before but when I tried to find it again in cyberspace, I couldn't. Can you elaborate on who they were or on what the word originally meant? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 19:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Hi Sandy, One of the things underlined by most modern Scottish, Manx, and Irish scholars is that the Gaelic world in this period (up to the 17th-18th Century) was one cultural entity. Not one political entity, but one cultural entity. One facet of that culture was the written language used by the Gaelic learned classes including the scribes. It was basically the same. The aos da/na (people of arts - including not just scribes but also experts in Gaelic law, history, genealogy, praise poetry, epic saga, prophecy, etc.) were trained in rigorous da/mhscoileanna ('schools of good company'), usually called 'bardic schools' in English, which used the same basic curriculum. The aos da/na circulated amongst those schools in Ireland, Scotland, and Man in order to increase their learning. Irish scholars took refuge in Scotland after 1603, 1641, and 1691. The last of the Irish da/mhscoileanna relocated to Man after 1691. When I look at the 15th century Scottish manuscript John showed us this week, it's the same Gaelic used in Ireland in that period. That single cultural identity was broken by the combination of the destruction of the Gaelic order in Ireland in 1691, imposition of English rule on Man, and the destruction of the Gaelic order in Scotland in 1746. The written dialects (as diversions from the single learned standard) rose after that. But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders. I have a copy of the Sailm Dhaibhidh ('Psalms of David') in front of me as I write this. It was printed in Edinburgh in 1806 in the Scottish Gaelic of that time. It's very different from today's Scottish Gaelic. With very few exceptions, it's exactly the same as the 17th century Irish of Seathru/n Ce/itinn (called 'Geoffrey Keating' in English), the father of Modern Irish prose. Almost exactly the same, about 350 years after the manuscript John showed us. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 1:56:44 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Would I be correct in saying that you've described what happened in Ireland? We're talking here about a document thought to have been produced in Scotland around 1450. No doubt the Scottish scribes would have been influenced by developments in Ireland through continual migration, but do you suppose Gaelic (and Nodanna) could have developed a little differently over here? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 18:15 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, You're very welcome. Sandy wrote: "Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.?" No. Instead, these are 2 different words with different origins and different meanings which were not used for each other, but just happen to look something alike. Another example of similar-looking words. While trying to look up 'nodanna' on the internet this morning, I found a Sri Lankan comedy sketch called Api Nodanna. Almost the same in spelling, but no relation and no common meaning and no common use whatsoever. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 12:44:23 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.? I don't want to twist your words <grin>. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 15:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, Most or all Celtic scholars give the etymology of Domhnall from Archaic Irish: doman ualos world valor / valiant / mighty So the name means something like 'world-mighty' or 'world-valiant'. Irish lost the Indo-European -os ending (Ulysses, Oddyseus, Perkunas, Deus, etc.) in the transition from Archaic Irish to Old Irish round about the 5th Century A.D. or so, leaving us with Domnall Today that's Domhnall or, with the spelling change in Irish in the last 50 years, Do/nal. Gaelic words for lord are usually flaith, triath, and tiarna. Although Domhnall was/is a popular name amongst the Ui/ Ne/ill, it was/is also used by other lineages. Hope that's helpful, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 5:02:36 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I think a better explanation is that the name domnail was derived from Lord Neill or Lord Niall and that was how the descent from Niall was indicated. I think that means that Clan Donald were originally M222, not necessarily descended from Niall, but with a close blood-line link. Somerled, whose mother was Nordic, somehow discovered or suspected that his wife (did he have more than one wife?) had been impregnated by someone of Nordic blood, flew into a rage (but a long-lasting, bitter rage), and that's why he waged war on the very people from whom his mother was descended. There's M222 in McRory. Ruadhri McDonald. Somerled's son. His real son. His Nordic sons weren't actually his, and Somerled was M222. I think I need a cold shower. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 21 May 2011 08:23 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that DYS495=17 is another distinctive Ewing marker. I'm not as sure about the second one though. It could be. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of David Ewing Sent: 22 May 2011 05:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111 Marker Tests I had a look on the FTDNA R:M222 Project website and captured 18 complete 111-marker haplotypes. I calculated a modal on just these for markers 68 - 111. The result is at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/431003/68-111_M222Modal.xls Then I compared this R:M222 modal with the Ewings at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/431003/111-markerTable.pdf Clearly, we don't have enough data to reach anything like reliable conclusions, but it looks like at least the branch of Ewings represented by the three Ewing men who have full 111-marker results have two additional markers off-modal for R:M222. It looks like some partial results on the extended panel are coming in, so maybe we'll have more M222 haplotypes soon, and we are also expecting a couple of more Ewings to upgrade soon. We'll see how this holds up. David Ewing R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Here's a link to the Ballymote version. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/McSweenyBallymote.jpg_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/McSweenyBallymote.jpg) I followed the transcription of Paul Walsh in his Leabhar Clainni Suibhne. I'd almost forgotten this. After the tales of the MacSweeneys in Scotland and Ireland the author added this: "Tadhg son of Fitheal wrote this small work on the Ramifications of Clann Stuhhne in haste and with a had implement, without chalk or pumice-stone. And let not him who reads it cast any blame on the writer. For if there he a mistake in it, the writer is not responsible for it, but the fact that he did not compose the book beforehand, and that it was mainly out of his head that he set it down. And let every one who reads it bestow a blessing on the soul of the writer, namely," Tadhg mac Fithil. John

I had a look on the FTDNA R:M222 Project website and captured 18 complete 111-marker haplotypes. I calculated a modal on just these for markers 68 - 111. The result is at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/431003/68-111_M222Modal.xls Then I compared this R:M222 modal with the Ewings at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/431003/111-markerTable.pdf Clearly, we don't have enough data to reach anything like reliable conclusions, but it looks like at least the branch of Ewings represented by the three Ewing men who have full 111-marker results have two additional markers off-modal for R:M222. It looks like some partial results on the extended panel are coming in, so maybe we'll have more M222 haplotypes soon, and we are also expecting a couple of more Ewings to upgrade soon. We'll see how this holds up. David Ewing

In a message dated 5/21/2011 12:32:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jerrykelly@att.net writes: Did Gaelic scribes take shorthand? The answer is yes, but using their own system called nodanna. Gaelic scribes had to be able to copy a lot of manuscripts, and quickly. So they developed their own shorthand system using literally hundreds of symbols. That is very interesting, Jerry. I knew the used abbreviated words and names in their pedigrees but didn't realize it was a actual system. I put a copy of the MacSweeney pedigree from the Book of Lecan online. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/McSweenyLecan.jpg_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/McSweenyLecan.jpg) This is a nice, clear copy. I used the spellings of the names from the O'Clery Book of Genealogies. In this graphic you can easily see the ab breviated names and cognomens. For example, Muircertaigh na ccocal ccroicenn (from O'Clery) appears as mct na c.c. with a few odd characters over the m and ct which Jerry probably can explain. I would look for something similar in the MS. 1467 transcription. The name Flaithbertaigh an trostain is also abbreviated. Trostan is tst with some more odd symbols. You could look for that in the MS. 1467 as well. I'm still looking for the Ballymote version and will do the same thing when I find it. Download this graphic and use a graphics program and you can zoom in quite a bit further than you can in a browser. John

Thanks Jerry This is all fascinating to me. [But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders.] I've seen the word 'Tories' used in an historical context before but when I tried to find it again in cyberspace, I couldn't. Can you elaborate on who they were or on what the word originally meant? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 19:57 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] the written language of the Aos Da/na Hi Sandy, One of the things underlined by most modern Scottish, Manx, and Irish scholars is that the Gaelic world in this period (up to the 17th-18th Century) was one cultural entity. Not one political entity, but one cultural entity. One facet of that culture was the written language used by the Gaelic learned classes including the scribes. It was basically the same. The aos da/na (people of arts - including not just scribes but also experts in Gaelic law, history, genealogy, praise poetry, epic saga, prophecy, etc.) were trained in rigorous da/mhscoileanna ('schools of good company'), usually called 'bardic schools' in English, which used the same basic curriculum. The aos da/na circulated amongst those schools in Ireland, Scotland, and Man in order to increase their learning. Irish scholars took refuge in Scotland after 1603, 1641, and 1691. The last of the Irish da/mhscoileanna relocated to Man after 1691. When I look at the 15th century Scottish manuscript John showed us this week, it's the same Gaelic used in Ireland in that period. That single cultural identity was broken by the combination of the destruction of the Gaelic order in Ireland in 1691, imposition of English rule on Man, and the destruction of the Gaelic order in Scotland in 1746. The written dialects (as diversions from the single learned standard) rose after that. But the dialects didn't take over overnight. As late as the American Revolution (1775-1783), all Gaelic was still referred to in English as "Irish". English spies and Tories reported that "Irish was as commonly spoken in the American ranks as English." Much of that "Irish" was being spoken by Scots Highlanders. I have a copy of the Sailm Dhaibhidh ('Psalms of David') in front of me as I write this. It was printed in Edinburgh in 1806 in the Scottish Gaelic of that time. It's very different from today's Scottish Gaelic. With very few exceptions, it's exactly the same as the 17th century Irish of Seathru/n Ce/itinn (called 'Geoffrey Keating' in English), the father of Modern Irish prose. Almost exactly the same, about 350 years after the manuscript John showed us. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 1:56:44 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Would I be correct in saying that you've described what happened in Ireland? We're talking here about a document thought to have been produced in Scotland around 1450. No doubt the Scottish scribes would have been influenced by developments in Ireland through continual migration, but do you suppose Gaelic (and Nodanna) could have developed a little differently over here? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 18:15 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, You're very welcome. Sandy wrote: "Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.?" No. Instead, these are 2 different words with different origins and different meanings which were not used for each other, but just happen to look something alike. Another example of similar-looking words. While trying to look up 'nodanna' on the internet this morning, I found a Sri Lankan comedy sketch called Api Nodanna. Almost the same in spelling, but no relation and no common meaning and no common use whatsoever. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 12:44:23 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.? I don't want to twist your words <grin>. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 15:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, Most or all Celtic scholars give the etymology of Domhnall from Archaic Irish: doman ualos world valor / valiant / mighty So the name means something like 'world-mighty' or 'world-valiant'. Irish lost the Indo-European -os ending (Ulysses, Oddyseus, Perkunas, Deus, etc.) in the transition from Archaic Irish to Old Irish round about the 5th Century A.D. or so, leaving us with Domnall Today that's Domhnall or, with the spelling change in Irish in the last 50 years, Do/nal. Gaelic words for lord are usually flaith, triath, and tiarna. Although Domhnall was/is a popular name amongst the Ui/ Ne/ill, it was/is also used by other lineages. Hope that's helpful, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 5:02:36 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I think a better explanation is that the name domnail was derived from Lord Neill or Lord Niall and that was how the descent from Niall was indicated. I think that means that Clan Donald were originally M222, not necessarily descended from Niall, but with a close blood-line link. Somerled, whose mother was Nordic, somehow discovered or suspected that his wife (did he have more than one wife?) had been impregnated by someone of Nordic blood, flew into a rage (but a long-lasting, bitter rage), and that's why he waged war on the very people from whom his mother was descended. There's M222 in McRory. Ruadhri McDonald. Somerled's son. His real son. His Nordic sons weren't actually his, and Somerled was M222. I think I need a cold shower. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 21 May 2011 08:23 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Jerry Would I be correct in saying that you've described what happened in Ireland? We're talking here about a document thought to have been produced in Scotland around 1450. No doubt the Scottish scribes would have been influenced by developments in Ireland through continual migration, but do you suppose Gaelic (and Nodanna) could have developed a little differently over here? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 18:15 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, You're very welcome. Sandy wrote: "Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.?" No. Instead, these are 2 different words with different origins and different meanings which were not used for each other, but just happen to look something alike. Another example of similar-looking words. While trying to look up 'nodanna' on the internet this morning, I found a Sri Lankan comedy sketch called Api Nodanna. Almost the same in spelling, but no relation and no common meaning and no common use whatsoever. Hope that's helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 12:44:23 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Thanks Jerry Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.? I don't want to twist your words <grin>. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 15:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, Most or all Celtic scholars give the etymology of Domhnall from Archaic Irish: doman ualos world valor / valiant / mighty So the name means something like 'world-mighty' or 'world-valiant'. Irish lost the Indo-European -os ending (Ulysses, Oddyseus, Perkunas, Deus, etc.) in the transition from Archaic Irish to Old Irish round about the 5th Century A.D. or so, leaving us with Domnall Today that's Domhnall or, with the spelling change in Irish in the last 50 years, Do/nal. Gaelic words for lord are usually flaith, triath, and tiarna. Although Domhnall was/is a popular name amongst the Ui/ Ne/ill, it was/is also used by other lineages. Hope that's helpful, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 5:02:36 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I think a better explanation is that the name domnail was derived from Lord Neill or Lord Niall and that was how the descent from Niall was indicated. I think that means that Clan Donald were originally M222, not necessarily descended from Niall, but with a close blood-line link. Somerled, whose mother was Nordic, somehow discovered or suspected that his wife (did he have more than one wife?) had been impregnated by someone of Nordic blood, flew into a rage (but a long-lasting, bitter rage), and that's why he waged war on the very people from whom his mother was descended. There's M222 in McRory. Ruadhri McDonald. Somerled's son. His real son. His Nordic sons weren't actually his, and Somerled was M222. I think I need a cold shower. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 21 May 2011 08:23 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Has anyone read the history of the manuscript as supplied by the Blacks? "The first section, folios 1–9, was written in 1467 by Dubhghall Albanach mac mhic Cathail (‘Scottish Dugald son of the son of Cathal’). Judging from his name and his interests, he was clearly a Scottish Gael, probably a member of the MacMhuirich bardic family (whose most characteristic name in a later period was Cathal) and a native of Kintyre, the principal base from which his family served the Lords of the Isles until 1490 as poets and historians." This section (folio 1-9) includes the genealogies. I wonder about the conclusion that he was Scottish though. I've seen Albanach in numerous Irish genealogies in O'Clery and it seems in those cases to imply "fostered in Scotland" or at least some connection with Scotland for an Irishman. The MacMhuirich family, bards to the McDonalds, were known to be Irish. Can that be what Albanach refers to? "The Highland genealogies on the first folio appear to have been copied, at least partly by dictation, from a text dating from about 1400. However, the fact that they are untidily crushed into the folio in irregular columns of close script (note the way the scribe returns from the end of column bc at f. 1v to fill up column c, lines 1–16) suggests that until now f. 1 had been left blank as a cover for the rest of the manuscript, and that it was being hastily employed as the only available material on which to write the text – very much the modern ‘back of an envelope’. This would point to 1467 or after as the date of writing, and would make it likely that the genealogies were written in Scotland on Dubhghall’s return. In confirmation of this it may be noted that the only marginalia post-dating Dubhghall in ff. 1– 9, and the only marginalia of any kind on f. 1, are by two hands familiar in Scottish manuscripts, those of Fearghus Ó Fearghail and John Beaton. " Dubhgall's return This is explained by a prior paragraph. "Dubhghall gives us his own name at folios 3r, 5r, 7r and 8r. At folio 7r he adds that he is writing in the presence of Elizabeth Butler in what he calls baile I Buagh—, presumably for baile Uí Bhuadhaigh or baile Uí Bhuadhacháin. The location of this place is strongly suggested by the fact that the Butlers were earls of Ormond (Co. Tipperary)." So the MS. was written in Ireland? And does the material date to about 1400 in Ireland? If so the only sources I know would be the Books of Ballymote and Lecan, dated to about 1400 or a little before. "Fearghus Ó Fearghail identifies himself quite clearly on f. 1v. Other notes by him, or by Rudhraidhe Ó Fearghail (his father or grandfather), appear at ff. 6v, 7v, 9v, 10v, 12v, 17r, 21v and 25v. Notes by another Irishman well known to have travelled in Scotland, Fearghal Óg Mac an Bháird (fl. 1583– 1608), appear on ff. 10v (?) and 25v. This allows us to say that, whereas it was clearly Dubhghall Albanach himself who brought the ‘1467 ms’ to Scotland, it must have been Mac an Bháird or an Ó Fearghail who brought the ‘ Broad Book’ from Ireland, and it would have been an Ó Fearghail who put them together." Reading this has entirely changed my thinking on the source of the pedigrees in the MS. 1467. I now think they were Irish originals, written in Ireland, probably in the Books of Ballymote and Lecan, and carried to Scotland. Since the only version in Irish manuscript of this time are for the MacSweeneys I think (as many Irish historians have said) they were invented specifically for them when they settled in Donegal c. 1345. In attempting to decipher the script of the MS. 1467 you would do well to consider the MacSweeney pedigrees in Ballymote and Lecan, both of which appear in my writeup of the Anradan kindred. _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/anradan.htm_ (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/anradan.htm) I am going to have to revise this material on the basis of the new transcription. If nothing else it makes it abundantly clear that Skene's original transcription containing a Nialgusa was wrong; a transcription that appeared to link the Lamonts and the rest of the Anradan kindred to the same stock as the McDonalds. I do not know yet what I will use in it's place. It's a logical deduction that the MS. 1467 should contain a pedigree identical or nearly identical to that found in MacSweeney in Ballymote and Lecan. And that would contain a descent from Nial glundubh. I am not yet sure that can be identified with certainty in the MS. 1467. Somewhere I have a copy of the MacSweeney pedigree from Ballymote. I'll see if I can find it. John

In a message dated 5/21/2011 8:54:08 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: Ok I'm with you now. Yes, but I think it's more than "possible". I think they were all "of the Fearchar blood-line". I should have said, in my earlier posting, John, son of Cristin, son of Lamont or Lawmanson. All of the Paisley charters are in a book on Google Books.Monasterii de Passelet Cartas Privilegia Conventiones Aliaque Munimenta Complectens The Maitland Club The charters themselves are undated, mostly grouped by family connections. But the editor did include a section near the front with some dating. The Fearchar son of Nigelli references turned out to be very late, 1294-1295, much later than the earliest Lamont references, c. 1230-46. That is quite different from the prior to 1249 reference given by the author of Memorials in Argyllshire so I don't think these are relevant from a Lamont history standpoint. Possibly later relatives but they tell us nothing of the father of Feachar in the Lamont line. John

Thanks Jerry Are you saying that Dominus became Domnall by around 500 A.D.? I don't want to twist your words <grin>. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 21 May 2011 15:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, Most or all Celtic scholars give the etymology of Domhnall from Archaic Irish: doman ualos world valor / valiant / mighty So the name means something like 'world-mighty' or 'world-valiant'. Irish lost the Indo-European -os ending (Ulysses, Oddyseus, Perkunas, Deus, etc.) in the transition from Archaic Irish to Old Irish round about the 5th Century A.D. or so, leaving us with Domnall Today that's Domhnall or, with the spelling change in Irish in the last 50 years, Do/nal. Gaelic words for lord are usually flaith, triath, and tiarna. Although Domhnall was/is a popular name amongst the Ui/ Ne/ill, it was/is also used by other lineages. Hope that's helpful, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 5:02:36 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I think a better explanation is that the name domnail was derived from Lord Neill or Lord Niall and that was how the descent from Niall was indicated. I think that means that Clan Donald were originally M222, not necessarily descended from Niall, but with a close blood-line link. Somerled, whose mother was Nordic, somehow discovered or suspected that his wife (did he have more than one wife?) had been impregnated by someone of Nordic blood, flew into a rage (but a long-lasting, bitter rage), and that's why he waged war on the very people from whom his mother was descended. There's M222 in McRory. Ruadhri McDonald. Somerled's son. His real son. His Nordic sons weren't actually his, and Somerled was M222. I think I need a cold shower. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 21 May 2011 08:23 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Many thanks Merle I'm sure it is obvious to you that my formal knowledge of languages is very weak. I'm quite good at pattern recognition though (I'm a mathematician), so I'm able to pick up things here and there. I did get as far as working out the difference between 'of' and 'in' and I understood the Domino although I don't know what nominative is. I also managed to guess that 'de' means 'of' as in de Ergadia, and I guessed it was Norman/French. I managed the 'and many others' and figured out the i, ii meanings. I enjoyed the perspective you gave to the feudal system. It's the meaning of the 'o', the last letter of the first word strings of names that seems important here, and I'm not sure whether you agree or disagree with my thinking here. I think Nigello Johannis Cristini Lammanii means that John was the son of Cristin who was the son of Lamman, and that he was from the blood-line of an earlier ancestor name Neil. The two other possibilities are that Neil was son of John who was son of Cristin who was son of Lamman, or That Neil John was the son of Cristin who was the son of Lamman. Can you help here? I'm sure I'll be able to check in at least one case because I have the actual pedigrees for a number of Lamonts. I can check for example whether John, son of Cristin, son of Lamont had a son called Neil. I think I'll be able to find a few checkable examples in Lamont. I should perhaps have checked that long ago, but this way is much more fun. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of lmerle@comcast.net Sent: 21 May 2011 16:24 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic Hi Sandy, I've had a couple years of Latin. For one thing, Latin never declines at the start of a word, like Gaelic, but always at the end. The same holds true for Latinate languages like Italian, French, Spanish, etc. Latin has cases, and words are declined at the end. the i's at the end of many of the names is the genitive case. It also has male, female, and neutral genders and several families of words that are declined differently. Add in number (single or plural) So one ends up with a bewildering number of endings based on number, gender, case, and the family of the noun, verb, etc. Adjectives 'agree' or take the case of the noun they modify. Classical Latin was very complicated. I have simplified. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin It is simplified in the Vulgate and other types of spoken Latin used by both Romans and subject peoples, none of whom studied Latin formally. Of course clerks would have had some formal education, but with the fall of the Roman Empire, things got simpler. Usually it's not complicated to decipher Latin terminology in regards to names because they are usually genitive case ('of' some place or other). Another different that evolved in Scots and English was a difference between "OF" and "IN". "In" indicates the person lived there. "Of" indicates it was his or her seat -- ownership (such as it was under medieval law). Knowing this one can, for example, interpret Scots parish records with greater expertise. A man 'in' a village was a villager. A man identified as "of" a village or place owned it. He was the lord. I think the 'de' below is 'of', and probably derived from Norman usuage. Before the English used English they used Norman French, and the 'de'. The Scots kings invited a lot of Norman knights to Scotland to infeudate Scotland. Before that the Scots clans held land by right of conquest or custom, much as Indians and the Irish held their land. The king needed a way to make his subjects loyal to him. This is actually one of the features of feudalism, that allowed Europe to crawl out of the dark ages and into a situation where it was possible to create large, stable sta! tes (excepting in Germany, in western Europe). This was done by force in England (Norman conquest) but the kings of Scotland did not use force (of the same scale as the Normans). They invited into Norman knights and married them off to Scots heiresses, following in the wake of custom that united the Pictish and Scots thrones long before. So many of the 'great' Scots names are actually Norman, and presumedly their Y chromosomes as well. When the king, who according to feudal custom, 'owned' all the land, granted out estates to his loyal knights, they were 'of' the estate, until such time as he took it away. et multis aliia = and many others. Domino = Lord - nominative case. (Domina = female lord) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_declension has more on declension. This is sometimes useful in Scottish genealogy since they continued to use Latin in the courts up into the 1800s. http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/LatinNotes.html Sassines (kind of deeds) and Latin (till 1848): http://www.motherhubbardscupboard.net/genclass/205/gen205_6.htm But it isn't so hard to figure out in the material you're dealing with, as long as you remember that there is no declension at the start of the word, as in Gaelic. Over time they evolved standard ways of translating names into Latin but there's no guarantee that every clerk at very time and every place knew how to translate every Gaelic name that someone was using. The Ragman's Roll is often claimed to be the earliest written usage of surnames in Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragman_Rolls It's transcribed in Hanna's "The Scotch Irish" (free at Ancestry and various other places) and here: http://www.rampantscotland.com/ragman/blragman_index.htm So you can see the pattern of transcription, presumedly done by someone who knew Scots Latin of the time. Linda Merle From: "Sandy Paterson" < alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic To: < dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <000001cc1787$ec398c40$c4aca4c0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sandy, I've had a couple years of Latin. For one thing, Latin never declines at the start of a word, like Gaelic, but always at the end. The same holds true for Latinate languages like Italian, French, Spanish, etc. Latin has cases, and words are declined at the end. the i's at the end of many of the names is the genitive case. It also has male, female, and neutral genders and several families of words that are declined differently. Add in number (single or plural) So one ends up with a bewildering number of endings based on number, gender, case, and the family of the noun, verb, etc. Adjectives 'agree' or take the case of the noun they modify. Classical Latin was very complicated. I have simplified. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin It is simplified in the Vulgate and other types of spoken Latin used by both Romans and subject peoples, none of whom studied Latin formally. Of course clerks would have had some formal education, but with the fall of the Roman Empire, things got simpler. Usually it's not complicated to decipher Latin terminology in regards to names because they are usually genitive case ('of' some place or other). Another different that evolved in Scots and English was a difference between "OF" and "IN". "In" indicates the person lived there. "Of" indicates it was his or her seat -- ownership (such as it was under medieval law). Knowing this one can, for example, interpret Scots parish records with greater expertise. A man 'in' a village was a villager. A man identified as "of" a village or place owned it. He was the lord. I think the 'de' below is 'of', and probably derived from Norman usuage. Before the English used English they used Norman French, and the 'de'. The Scots kings invited a lot of Norman knights to Scotland to infeudate Scotland. Before that the Scots clans held land by right of conquest or custom, much as Indians and the Irish held their land. The king needed a way to make his subjects loyal to him. This is actually one of the features of feudalism, that allowed Europe to crawl out of the dark ages and into a situation where it was possible to create large, stable states (excepting in Germany, in western Europe). This was done by force in England (Norman conquest) but the kings of Scotland did not use force (of the same scale as the Normans). They invited into Norman knights and married them off to Scots heiresses, following in the wake of custom that united the Pictish and Scots thrones long before. So many of the 'great' Scots names are actually Norman, and presumedly their Y chromosomes as well. When the king, who according to feudal custom, 'owned' all the land, granted out estates to his loyal knights, they were 'of' the estate, until such time as he took it away. et multis aliia = and many others. Domino = Lord - nominative case. (Domina = female lord) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_declension has more on declension. This is sometimes useful in Scottish genealogy since they continued to use Latin in the courts up into the 1800s. http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/LatinNotes.html Sassines (kind of deeds) and Latin (till 1848): http://www.motherhubbardscupboard.net/genclass/205/gen205_6.htm But it isn't so hard to figure out in the material you're dealing with, as long as you remember that there is no declension at the start of the word, as in Gaelic. Over time they evolved standard ways of translating names into Latin but there's no guarantee that every clerk at very time and every place knew how to translate every Gaelic name that someone was using. The Ragman's Roll is often claimed to be the earliest written usage of surnames in Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragman_Rolls It's transcribed in Hanna's "The Scotch Irish" (free at Ancestry and various other places) and here: http://www.rampantscotland.com/ragman/blragman_index.htm So you can see the pattern of transcription, presumedly done by someone who knew Scots Latin of the time. Linda Merle From: "Sandy Paterson" < alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com > Subject: [R-M222] Lord in Gaelic To: < dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <000001cc1787$ec398c40$c4aca4c0$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wonder what the Gaelic abbreviation is for 'Lord'. In Latin, it seems that Lord (at the start of a name) is 'Domino' as in Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan In the middle of a name, it is domino as in Goffrido Johannis Lamanii domino de Innerkeylan These are from the 1431 Charter of Swene, in the Lamont Papers. I notice the Latin way is to use declensions, so Johanne Wilhelmi Eugenii. means (I think) John son of William son of Ewen. The Lamont Papers give the witnesses to the Charter as Doncano Celestini Lammanii Domino Fynlao vicario de Innerkeolan Nigello Flemyng Goffrido Johannis Lammanii domino de Innerkeylan Johanne Wilhelmi Cristini Eugenii Ferchado Johannis Cristini Lammanii, et multis aliia I see the first part of the names all start with 'o'. That could be a declension, but I wonder whether it couldn't mean something in addition to that. I'm still a little confused as to why three people who are not named Neill suddenly appear with Nigello at the start of their names. Could Nigello mean 'of the Neill line'? But back to my earlier question. Could 'dom' in Gaelic be an abbreviation for 'Domino', meaning Lord? Could 'domnail' not mean Lord Nail, or Lord Neil? Niall of the Nine hostages was (and I think we have to begin to accept that he was historical and not mythical) a powerful man. I've often wondered though why relatively few people seem to be named after him. Wouldn't virtually all of his descendants have wanted their own name to reflect that they were of his blood-line? Are the very many Domnails (excuse spelling) found in the annals not perhaps Lord Neils? Oy vay. Sandy

I think Ferchardo filio Nigelli de Buyt means Nigelli of Bute, in the line of Fearchar. I don't think it means Fearchar, son of Nigelli de Buyt. I actually passed a Latin examination once. It was in the third term of four terms, in my first year of high school. The pass mark was 33 and a third percent. I achieved 33 and two thirds percent. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 18 May 2011 02:06 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Angus MacRory I found a couple of references to the Nigelli of Buyt quoted in Memorials of Argyllshire. The text is in Latin and I can't tell the date. They were dated to prior to 1249 by the author. In each reference the men were witnesses. You can find a copy on Google Books if you want them. Ferchardo filio Nigelli de Buyt p. 268 Descriptions of the sheriffdoms of Lanark and Renfrew compiled about M.DCC.X ... edited by John Dillion, John Fullartoun Ferchardo de Buit, Duncano fratre suo p.268 Descriptions of the sheriffdoms of Lanark and Renfrew compiled about M.DCC.X ... edited by John Dillion, John Fullartoun Skene (Highlanders of Scotland) says the Lamonts were descended from an Angus MacRory (ie, McDonald), who at about this time, was Lord of Bute. Any connection here with the R1a Lamonts who are said to match the McDonalds? John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message