[I think there's no doubt about the name Fearchar. That's a constant in the charters. But wasn't Laumon the son of Malcolm son of Fearchar?] Yes, that was a slip. What I should have said was that we can be pretty certain of Ferchar Malcolm Laumon and descendants. I'm not even sure of Ferchar's father any more, and I think Arthur Dall McGorre needs scrutiny. I see there's a current-day Gaelic poet in Scotland who calls himself Artur Dall Mac Gurcaigh. I think the fellow who wrote the poem about the siege of Castle Suibhe (in the Dean's Book of Lismore) was Arthur Dall McGurcus or something close. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 23 May 2011 02:05 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lamont Pedigree In a message dated 5/22/2011 5:37:59 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: To my mind, we can accept without any doubt that Laumon was the son of Ferchar. That's clear from the Charter about the lands that the Paisley monks were granted use of.

[But in the context of the underlying discussion (the new transcript of 1467), I'm beginning to wonder whether Domnail in line 27 wasn't perhaps Somerled himself. If so, it means we have to bin at least 6 names in the pedigree to end up with] That theory is blown. The scribe(s) Use Somairle for Somairle. No code, no hidden meanings, no nodanna. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 23 May 2011 12:27 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] heroic Gaelic names Thanks Jerry I assure you that did me no disservive at all. Quite the contrary, you did me a service by kick-starting my sometimes sluggish brain.

Great advice David. Thanks. Daryl -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of David Ewing Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 4:18 PM To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA Mystery Welcome to the list, Mr. Smith. As a first step, you should upload your results to YSearch. This can be done from your FTDNA personal page. Not only will this allow you to compare your results with a larger pool of men, but it will also give you a convenient way to share your results with others (by sending your YSearch ID to your correspondents). Listing results in a email message like the one you sent the list is unlikely to generate much response, because comparing your results with others will require someone to laboriously enter the results into a spreadsheet by hand, one marker at a time, and practically no one will want to take the time to do that. If your results are at YSearch, interested people can effortlessly import them into a spreadsheet with a couple of clicks of the mouse. Good luck, David Ewing R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I will look into Y-Search tonight, Paul. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 3:33 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA Mystery Daryl, Have you uploaded your results to Y-Search, if so can you supply a Y-Search ID, to look at your results online. That's a great way to find other matches. Please note also, that none other than Famous African-American, Henry Louis Gates Jr, is also R-L21 M222+ - same as you. So it is not unknown for African-Americans to have paternal lineages going back to Ireland or Scotland. Also, Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism also was R-L21 M222+, like you, based on a recent study of his male line descendants. Cheers, Paul On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Daryl W. Smith <darylwsmith@hotmail.com>wrote: > My family is African American. My dad's DNA profile and close matches on > Ancestry indicate a male ancestor from Europe, possibly Ireland. Our > research to date only goes back to the 1870 census. My father (William > Smith) was born in Georgetown, Kentucky in 1930. My Grandfather, Thomas > Horace Smith was born in Lexington, Kentucky in 1882 and died in 1970. My > Great-Grandfather (Phil or Phillip Smith) is on the 1870 census in > Lexington, Kentucky. I believe he is also on the 1880 census in Lexington > and I have a death record of a Phillip Smith who died in Lexington > 11/11/1896. Does anyone have advice on how to make the leap from what we > know to where the DNA trail is leading? Anyone out there with the same or > similar DNA results? I have found one family who owned slaves in Virginia > who Ancestry says we have a common ancestor within 9 generations. Our > closest match is to a Carrigan family, originally from Ireland, but we have > no idea how the paths of our families might have crossed in the past. We > are seeking to make contact with everyone within 10 generations on my dad's > Ancestry DNA report. > > > > All advice is greatly appreciated. I have included my father's DNA results > in this post. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Daryl > > > > DYS19a 14 > > DYS19b - > > DYS385a 11 > > DYS385b 13 > > DYS388 12 > > DYS389I 13 > > DYS389II 29 > > DYS390 25 > > DYS391 11 > > DYS392 14 > > DYS393 13 > > DYS426 12 > > DYS437 15 > > DYS438 12 > > DYS439 12 > > DYS441 14 > > DYS442 17 > > DYS444 12 > > DYS445 12 > > DYS446 13 > > DYS447 25 > > DYS448 18 > > DYS449 31 > > DYS452 30 > > DYS454 11 > > DYS455 11 > > DYS456 17 > > DYS458 16 > > DYS459a 9 > > DYS459b 10 > > DYS460 11 > > DYS461 12 > > DYS462 11 > > DYS463 24 > > DYS464a 15 > > DYS464b 16 > > DYS464c 16 > > DYS464d 16 > > DYS464e - > > DYS464f - > > GGAAT1B07 10 > > YCAIIa 19 > > YCAIIb 23 > > Y-GATA-A10 15 > > DYS635 23 > > Y-GATA-H4 12 > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you Sandy. Daryl -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 3:24 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] DNA Mystery Hi Daryl I don't really have advice for you, but I've recently been looking at the DNA of people with names close to McCaragan. Carrigan would be close. I have reason to believe I'm quite closely related to McCaragan and don't think my DNA is that far from yours but I'll have a closer look tomorrow. I'm pretty sure it's not as close as 9 generations, but it's probably worth a close look. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Daryl W. Smith Sent: 23 May 2011 18:55 To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] DNA Mystery My family is African American. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Daryl, Have you uploaded your results to Y-Search, if so can you supply a Y-Search ID, to look at your results online. That's a great way to find other matches. Please note also, that none other than Famous African-American, Henry Louis Gates Jr, is also R-L21 M222+ - same as you. So it is not unknown for African-Americans to have paternal lineages going back to Ireland or Scotland. Also, Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism also was R-L21 M222+, like you, based on a recent study of his male line descendants. Cheers, Paul On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Daryl W. Smith <darylwsmith@hotmail.com>wrote: > My family is African American. My dad's DNA profile and close matches on > Ancestry indicate a male ancestor from Europe, possibly Ireland. Our > research to date only goes back to the 1870 census. My father (William > Smith) was born in Georgetown, Kentucky in 1930. My Grandfather, Thomas > Horace Smith was born in Lexington, Kentucky in 1882 and died in 1970. My > Great-Grandfather (Phil or Phillip Smith) is on the 1870 census in > Lexington, Kentucky. I believe he is also on the 1880 census in Lexington > and I have a death record of a Phillip Smith who died in Lexington > 11/11/1896. Does anyone have advice on how to make the leap from what we > know to where the DNA trail is leading? Anyone out there with the same or > similar DNA results? I have found one family who owned slaves in Virginia > who Ancestry says we have a common ancestor within 9 generations. Our > closest match is to a Carrigan family, originally from Ireland, but we have > no idea how the paths of our families might have crossed in the past. We > are seeking to make contact with everyone within 10 generations on my dad's > Ancestry DNA report. > > > > All advice is greatly appreciated. I have included my father's DNA results > in this post. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Daryl > > > > DYS19a 14 > > DYS19b - > > DYS385a 11 > > DYS385b 13 > > DYS388 12 > > DYS389I 13 > > DYS389II 29 > > DYS390 25 > > DYS391 11 > > DYS392 14 > > DYS393 13 > > DYS426 12 > > DYS437 15 > > DYS438 12 > > DYS439 12 > > DYS441 14 > > DYS442 17 > > DYS444 12 > > DYS445 12 > > DYS446 13 > > DYS447 25 > > DYS448 18 > > DYS449 31 > > DYS452 30 > > DYS454 11 > > DYS455 11 > > DYS456 17 > > DYS458 16 > > DYS459a 9 > > DYS459b 10 > > DYS460 11 > > DYS461 12 > > DYS462 11 > > DYS463 24 > > DYS464a 15 > > DYS464b 16 > > DYS464c 16 > > DYS464d 16 > > DYS464e - > > DYS464f - > > GGAAT1B07 10 > > YCAIIa 19 > > YCAIIb 23 > > Y-GATA-A10 15 > > DYS635 23 > > Y-GATA-H4 12 > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Welcome to the list, Mr. Smith. As a first step, you should upload your results to YSearch. This can be done from your FTDNA personal page. Not only will this allow you to compare your results with a larger pool of men, but it will also give you a convenient way to share your results with others (by sending your YSearch ID to your correspondents). Listing results in a email message like the one you sent the list is unlikely to generate much response, because comparing your results with others will require someone to laboriously enter the results into a spreadsheet by hand, one marker at a time, and practically no one will want to take the time to do that. If your results are at YSearch, interested people can effortlessly import them into a spreadsheet with a couple of clicks of the mouse. Good luck, David Ewing

My family is African American. My dad's DNA profile and close matches on Ancestry indicate a male ancestor from Europe, possibly Ireland. Our research to date only goes back to the 1870 census. My father (William Smith) was born in Georgetown, Kentucky in 1930. My Grandfather, Thomas Horace Smith was born in Lexington, Kentucky in 1882 and died in 1970. My Great-Grandfather (Phil or Phillip Smith) is on the 1870 census in Lexington, Kentucky. I believe he is also on the 1880 census in Lexington and I have a death record of a Phillip Smith who died in Lexington 11/11/1896. Does anyone have advice on how to make the leap from what we know to where the DNA trail is leading? Anyone out there with the same or similar DNA results? I have found one family who owned slaves in Virginia who Ancestry says we have a common ancestor within 9 generations. Our closest match is to a Carrigan family, originally from Ireland, but we have no idea how the paths of our families might have crossed in the past. We are seeking to make contact with everyone within 10 generations on my dad's Ancestry DNA report. All advice is greatly appreciated. I have included my father's DNA results in this post. Thanks, Daryl DYS19a 14 DYS19b - DYS385a 11 DYS385b 13 DYS388 12 DYS389I 13 DYS389II 29 DYS390 25 DYS391 11 DYS392 14 DYS393 13 DYS426 12 DYS437 15 DYS438 12 DYS439 12 DYS441 14 DYS442 17 DYS444 12 DYS445 12 DYS446 13 DYS447 25 DYS448 18 DYS449 31 DYS452 30 DYS454 11 DYS455 11 DYS456 17 DYS458 16 DYS459a 9 DYS459b 10 DYS460 11 DYS461 12 DYS462 11 DYS463 24 DYS464a 15 DYS464b 16 DYS464c 16 DYS464d 16 DYS464e - DYS464f - GGAAT1B07 10 YCAIIa 19 YCAIIb 23 Y-GATA-A10 15 DYS635 23 Y-GATA-H4 12

Many thanks, Sandy. Would love to see that. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 3:02:25 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Jerry, Have you ever come across palimpsests used to convey extra information? I recently came across a birth record dated 1710 that could be an example. If you're interested, I can send you an image of it off-list. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 19:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. But you are right about the aos da/na enjoying puns and word-play. For example, we have Gaelic poems which have come down to us made up of series of homophones - words that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different meanings. If you listen to one of these poems one way, it means one thing. If you listen to it another way, the poem means something completely different all the way through. It depends upon the meaning you take for the first homophone in the poem. This was considered a very advanced art form and was used by the aos da/na to entertain each other. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 2:35:10 PM Subject: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names [But in the context of the underlying discussion (the new transcript of 1467), I'm beginning to wonder whether Domnail in line 27 wasn't perhaps Somerled himself. If so, it means we have to bin at least 6 names in the pedigree to end up with] That theory is blown. The scribe(s) Use Somairle for Somairle. No code, no hidden meanings, no nodanna. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 23 May 2011 12:27 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] heroic Gaelic names Thanks Jerry I assure you that did me no disservive at all. Quite the contrary, you did me a service by kick-starting my sometimes sluggish brain. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

With that said, it's unlikely we'll see any word-play in the genealogies. Gaelic law doesn't provide for the Roman concept of "equal treatment under the law." My rights and privileges under Fe/ineachas are different from yours because we have different descent. It's likely that one of us has a higher enechlann / honor-price than the other, and so can outswear the other in court. That could drastically affect our futures, might even cost one of us life. Today, most of us look are looking at these ancient genealogies as a hobby. But for the people who used them, they had the effect of law, they were used constantly in law, and they were a matter of life and death. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 2:47:59 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. But you are right about the aos da/na enjoying puns and word-play. For example, we have Gaelic poems which have come down to us made up of series of homophones - words that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different meanings. If you listen to one of these poems one way, it means one thing. If you listen to it another way, the poem means something completely different all the way through. It depends upon the meaning you take for the first homophone in the poem. This was considered a very advanced art form and was used by the aos da/na to entertain each other. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 2:35:10 PM Subject: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names [But in the context of the underlying discussion (the new transcript of 1467), I'm beginning to wonder whether Domnail in line 27 wasn't perhaps Somerled himself. If so, it means we have to bin at least 6 names in the pedigree to end up with] That theory is blown. The scribe(s) Use Somairle for Somairle. No code, no hidden meanings, no nodanna. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 23 May 2011 12:27 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] heroic Gaelic names Thanks Jerry I assure you that did me no disservive at all. Quite the contrary, you did me a service by kick-starting my sometimes sluggish brain. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Jerry I assure you that did me no disservive at all. Quite the contrary, you did me a service by kick-starting my sometimes sluggish brain. I think we have to differentiate between names chosen by parents, and adjectival names acquired later in life, chosen by scribes in an attempt to give as much information as possible about the person whose history they recorded. I think the scribes wanted not only to give information but they also tried to attain a kind of longevity in the minds of future generations of the histories they recorded. I also suspect that many scholars underestimate the amount of thought that the scribes put into their trade. I think there are many double meanings, maybe even treble meanings. Perhaps a little like naming racehorses. Perhaps a pedigree is a bit like the cryptic crosswords today. And I think we must also believe logically that the scribes had a sense of humour, and sometimes expressed that in the way they described things. So yes, names still mean what they meant in earlier times, but the reason for choosing a particular name may have changed. Parents who choose to name their daughter Siobhan (a truly beautiful name), don't do so because they believe that their daughter is of a super-natural people, but perhaps because she is fair, and they like the name. Let's get back to Somhairle. Now I'm on thin ice here, because my knowledge of history is weak, but I don't think he was named Domnail by his parents. His parents named him Somhairle, and he became known in later life as Lord of the Isles. The scribes recorded this, and to emphasise it, they gave him an adjectival nodannic name as well. In a sense, they sought longevity by repeating the same name in two different languages. But perhaps they were just showing off their skills? do na ille with a tilde over the 'o', Lord of the Isles The scribes were of course scholars themselves and would have been well aware of earlier scholars' views on the meaning of Domnail. However, they would in all likelihood have considered that meaning to be consistent with domnail, Lord of the Isles. A "kind of but not quite" double meaning. A cryptic crossword. Showing off their skills with wordplay. But in the context of the underlying discussion (the new transcript of 1467), I'm beginning to wonder whether Domnail in line 27 wasn't perhaps Somerled himself. If so, it means we have to bin at least 6 names in the pedigree to end up with Nial Gille Dubh Gille Criost Somerled Ferchar Ferchar Malcolm Laumon I may well be accused here of manufacturing a pedigree. Making it fit. But what I'm trying to do is to combine what we know about DNA with a pedigree that looks a touch dodgy in parts. It's offered as a possibility, not claimed as fact. The shorter pedigree is not as ridiculous as it may seem. There is R1a in Lamont, and quite frankly, the Lamont R1a haplotypes would look very much at home amongst the Clan Donald R1a, the group containing the chiefly line. There would still be a lot of explaining to do. How does the M222 in Lamont fit in? At this stage, it looks as if the McPhadrick Lamonts of Coustoun may be the Lamont M222. That still leaves the L21+ Lamont unexplained, the largest haplogroup in Lamont DNA. But there are still other clues that need investigating. Arthur Dall McGorrie may well have been a Lamont ancestor. As I've said before, I don't think Clan Lamont or indeed the chiefs of Lamont all descend from one man. I think they may well descend from three different men. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 22 May 2011 17:49 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] heroic Gaelic names Hi Sandy, I did you a disservice by not explaining why there's such unanimity as to the meaning of Domhnall and other early Gaelic names.

Many thanks, Sandy. But you are right about the aos da/na enjoying puns and word-play. For example, we have Gaelic poems which have come down to us made up of series of homophones - words that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different meanings. If you listen to one of these poems one way, it means one thing. If you listen to it another way, the poem means something completely different all the way through. It depends upon the meaning you take for the first homophone in the poem. This was considered a very advanced art form and was used by the aos da/na to entertain each other. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 2:35:10 PM Subject: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names [But in the context of the underlying discussion (the new transcript of 1467), I'm beginning to wonder whether Domnail in line 27 wasn't perhaps Somerled himself. If so, it means we have to bin at least 6 names in the pedigree to end up with] That theory is blown. The scribe(s) Use Somairle for Somairle. No code, no hidden meanings, no nodanna. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 23 May 2011 12:27 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] heroic Gaelic names Thanks Jerry I assure you that did me no disservive at all. Quite the contrary, you did me a service by kick-starting my sometimes sluggish brain. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Does the absence of question marks after the first two (Kintyre and Cowal) mean that you are confident about them, but less confident about the rest? If so, maybe we need to take a closer look at Sleibine mac Congaile? He was Abbot on Iona, 752-765. If he's Niall guirm, I'll have to reconsider my inclination to bin most of the Lamont pedigree. I also can't figure out a way by which Sleibine mac Congaile could be the same person as Niall guirm -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan Sent: 23 May 2011 01:56 To: dna-r1b1c7 Subject: Re: [R-M222] Angus MacRory What were the divisions of Argyll and Bute:

[All that tells me is that somewhere in the pedigree or ancestry of the Lamonts, if true, there should be an Orcanus who had a son nicknamed Gille dubh. He also says this was about 900 AD.] I agree. That's all we know. But I'm happy that Orcanus was O'Cainus. I haven't found him yet. I remember you once describing me as a sitter (or something close) for O'Cathain. I don't think so. O'Cainus, yes. O'Cathain, no, unless Orcanus/O'Cainus was O'Cathain, and without being able to explain why, I sense Southern Ui Neill, not Northern. And remember, CAIN = LAW McCain and Lamont are linked somehow, I just don't know how. [Notice he says nickname. If that's true he could be known by another name in Lamont history, the same way Aodh Alainn is called Buirche. But that will get you nowhere unless you can discover who the Orcanus was. The 900 AD. date is a big puzzle. That was long before the time of Fearchar or Laumun. I know of nothing like Orcanus in the pedigree of the O'Neills. I don't doubt he's quoting some kind of tradition here. But I know of nothing to tie it into.] I agree, I need to find Orcanus/O'Cainus, and yes A.D. 900 worries me a little. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 23 May 2011 02:05 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Lamont Pedigree In a message dated 5/22/2011 5:37:59 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes:

> "In the year 1210, Angus, son of Somerled, was killed, with his three sons. I read per modern historians that after Angus the MacRuairi now move into the Firth of Clyde, but it doesn't seem to work. That marriage of 1242 is with the Man (Alexander) who will crush the Norwegians at the Battle of Larg in 1263 leading to the subigation of Western Isle and Mann to Scottish rule. His son James will seize Bute and Arran by right of his mother Jean.

> Skene (Highlanders of Scotland) says the Lamonts were descended from an > Angus MacRory (ie, McDonald), who at about this time, was Lord of Bute. James mac Angus mac Rory's daughter Jean married Alexander the high sheriff in 1242. Her great-grandfather Rory mac Ranald mac Somerled died in c1247 after reigning from c1214. There seem to be a problem for Rory's two reported sons are Dugald (active in 1258?) and Ailen (active 1285-1309, and may the son of Dugald). Dugald mac Rory would have been the great-uncle to Jean nic James mac Angus mac Rory? The MacRory of Arran Bute seems, for me, are not descendants of Somerled. So who is Angus MacRory, Lachlan MacRory and James mac Angus MacRory of Bute and Cowal?

What were the divisions of Argyll and Bute: Kintyre home to the Angus mac Donald Cowal (Cenél Comgall) Bute held by the MacRory? Arran held by the MacRory? Cnapadal\Knapdale home to the MacSween? yet held by John of Menteith? Lorne (Cenél Loairn mac Erc) home to Ewen mac Dougall Mull Islay Ouside: Movren - Kinelvadon (Cenél Báetáin of Cenél Loairn) in Lochaber Is there a good breakdown of the 12/13th century Argyll?

In a message dated 5/22/2011 10:06:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, bernardmorgan@hotmail.com writes: The MacRory of Arran Bute seems, for me, are not descendants of Somerled. I looked that up too. They claim Angus MacRory was a son of Somerled. Some sources say he was just called MacRory which doesn't make much sense. T There isn't much to go on. The Chronicle of Mann has: "In the year 1210, Angus, son of Somerled, was killed, with his three sons. In the same year, John, King of Eng land, with a fleet of 50 ships, went to Ireland and subdued it. He sent a part of the army, with an earl of the name of Fulke, to Man. This force in fifteen days devastated nearly the whole island, and receiving hostages returned home. King Reginald, however, and his nobles were absent from Man at the time." John

In a message dated 5/22/2011 5:37:59 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: In any event, he claimed nothing fancy, just that he had an ancestor called Orcanus, and another one called Gille Dubh. I don't know why I didn't think of this before but could Orcanus be Erc, the ancestor of the Scottish Dal Riata? He was by legend the father of Fergus Mor, Angus and Loarn who are said to have settled in Scotland. If so he may have just been quoting some kind of version of the founding of the Scottish Dal Riata. John

In a message dated 5/22/2011 5:37:59 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: To my mind, we can accept without any doubt that Laumon was the son of Ferchar. That's clear from the Charter about the lands that the Paisley monks were granted use of. I think there's no doubt about the name Fearchar. That's a constant in the charters. But wasn't Laumon the son of Malcolm son of Fearchar? " Laumanus filius Malcolmi nepos ejusdem Duncani," who grant a charter to the monks of Paisley, of the lands of Kilmor near Lochgilp, and of the lands " quas nos et antecessores nostri apud Kilmun habuerunt." <Then, I think we can assume that Sir James Lamont was truthful in his 1661 declaration about the Gille Dubhs. The man had spent the previous 15 years either imprisoned or on the run. His life was almost ruined and I don't think could have been in the frame of mind to concoct a fancy pedigree. In any event, he claimed nothing fancy, just that he had an ancestor called Orcanus, and another one called Gille Dubh. Has anyone come up with anything solid on Orcanus? I saw lots of speculation but must confess I didn't pay much attention to it. I'm not sure about anything yet on the new transcription of the MS. 1467 but I'm not sure the name Gille Dubh really appears in that ms. I returned to the original source for this: Inveryne Charters. 2 May 1661. 796. "Declaration of the true Extraction off The M'llzegowies alias Lamont." In a document entitled as above, dated 2 May 1661, and signed by Sir James Lamont, Sir James declares that "John M'Gilligowie in Castletoune in the Brae of Mar, and Donald M'lzegowie servitour to Sir David Ogilvie, sone to the Earle of Airlie, and all the name of M'llzeguies, ar my trew native kindlie people and kinsmen." He goes on to say that they are descended from a son of one of his predecessors who was called by nickname "Gillidow, that is, the blakboy, from quhom all his posteritie war callit the sones of the Gillidow, from quhich nikname they have gotten their surnames, the quhich boy was son to Orcanus, Laird of Lamount, quha livet about the nyn hundredth yeir of oure Lord." All that tells me is that somewhere in the pedigree or ancestry of the Lamonts, if true, there should be an Orcanus who had a son nicknamed Gille dubh. He also says this was about 900 AD. Notice he says nickname. If that's true he could be known by another name in Lamont history, the same way Aodh Alainn is called Buirche. But that will get you nowhere unless you can discover who the Orcanus was. The 900 AD. date is a big puzzle. That was long before the time of Fearchar or Laumun. I know of nothing like Orcanus in the pedigree of the O'Neills. I don't doubt he's quoting some kind of tradition here. But I know of nothing to tie it into. I think you've been looking at the Gille Dubh in the new MS. 1467 transcription. But in the transcription this man's father is called Murachaidh and I don't see Orcanus in that name. The name in translation is Murchadh. I can't see any connection there. I think that name in Scottish history is mostly rendered as Murdoch although in Ireland you might see it as Murrough. In 1723 Buchanan, speaking of Lamonts, mentions a Lamont O'Neill but nothing further. "The Surname of Lamond is asserted to be descended of Lamond Oneil, a son of the Great Oneil, provincial King of North Ulster. The Chiefs of this Surname were allied with very honourable Families both in Scotland, and Ireland, as with the Families of Argyle, M'Donald, Luss, Buchanan, Okyan, Lord Dunseverin, and other Families in Ireland." That might be part of the same old clan history since Buchanan wrote shortly after 1661. Or it may have nothing to do with that. I can't think of anything in the O'Neill/McLaughlin line ca. 900 that could have turned into Orcanus. As several noted when this first came up Orc appears to be the same root as Orkney which I think I've seen as the islands of Orc. This strikes me as a personal name of some kind meant to be eponymous, ie. the islands of Orcney are so called from Orc. So far I have been unable to discover if there was a person named Orc in mythology. This is quite a stretch but I did see the name Ochtar who I think is the same as the Domhoctor of the Nennius. This comes from Nennius' version of the Irish Milesian legends in which Domhoctor led the last invasion of Ireland. In the Irish version of Nennius (Historiam Britonum) we learn that after this invasion of Ireland the descendants of Gaelion son of Ercal took possession of the islands of Orc, viz. Istoreth son of Istorinus son of Agnomen son of Agathirsus. Somehow the tracts tie in the Cruithin of Scotland to this tale stating they spread from the islands of Ork and took possession of northern Britain. But I doubt the Lamonts would have placed Orcanus at the time of the Milesian legends. John