Hi Sandy, Many thanks. Yes - there was no such thing as an illegitimate child under Fe/ineachas (Brehon Law). The only possible reduction of right occurred if the child had 1 slave parent and 1 free parent. In that case the child was free but couldn't become a king. According to all the ancient genealogies and stories, I descend from the adaltrach (concubine) Cairinn Casdub. She had Niall Naoighiallach by Eochu Mugmeado/n. Because Niall was the son of 2 free parents, he could be elected king. And he was. There was nothing wrong with being the son or daughter of a adaltrach. There was nothing wrong with being born outside a Church marriage. In Ireland, nearly everybody was until the beginning of the 17th century. I don't know Scottish social history as well, so don't know when the switch to Church-sancitified marriage occurred in the Gaelic areas. By chance, I also descend (according to all the ancient genealogies and stories) from Eochu Mugmeado/n's pri/omhmhuintir (primary wife) Mongfind. Mongfind had Fiachra (my ancestor), Brion, Ailill, and Fergus by Eochu. They had no greater rights than Niall. As you know, Niall's descendants provided most of the High-Kings of Ireland. Fiachra's descendants provided only 2 of the High-Kings of Ireland. Brion 0. Ailill 0. Fergus 0. Adopted children had the full honor price of their adopted parents under Fe/ineachas (Brehon Law). An adopted individual with a higher honor price could out-swear others with lower honor prices. If my honor price were 8 cumhal, I could outswear 2 others with 4 and 3 cumhal respectively. My 8 would beat their 7 whether or not I was adopted. Le gach dea-ghui/, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 2:28:45 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Hi Jerry I'll try and get it to you later today off-list. On-list though, a question. In a posting perhaps 6 weeks ago, you (at least I think it was you) spoke a little about Brehon law and children born out of wedlock. I gained the impression that there was no such thing as an illegitimate child under Brehon law. Is that correct? A more general question : What rights did children born outside formal marriages have? I'm curious, because my great grandfather was so born (albeit under British law). Also, out of interest, if person A adopted person B under Brehon law, would person A out-swear person B? Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 21:11 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. Would love to see that. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 3:02:25 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Jerry, Have you ever come across palimpsests used to convey extra information? I recently came across a birth record dated 1710 that could be an example. If you're interested, I can send you an image of it off-list. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 19:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. But you are right about the aos da/na enjoying puns and word-play. For example, we have Gaelic poems which have come down to us made up of series of homophones - words that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different meanings. If you listen to one of these poems one way, it means one thing. If you listen to it another way, the poem means something completely different all the way through. It depends upon the meaning you take for the first homophone in the poem. This was considered a very advanced art form and was used by the aos da/na to entertain each other. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 2:35:10 PM Subject: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names [But in the context of the underlying discussion (the new transcript of 1467), I'm beginning to wonder whether Domnail in line 27 wasn't perhaps Somerled himself. If so, it means we have to bin at least 6 names in the pedigree to end up with] That theory is blown. The scribe(s) Use Somairle for Somairle. No code, no hidden meanings, no nodanna. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 23 May 2011 12:27 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] heroic Gaelic names Thanks Jerry I assure you that did me no disservive at all. Quite the contrary, you did me a service by kick-starting my sometimes sluggish brain. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[That may be so but O Cathain (whom you match) does not mean law.] I'm much closer to those haplotypes within the O'Cathain grouping that bear the surname Cain or variants than I am to those who don't. I understand that three of those grouped as O'Cathain have very well-researched pedigrees that lead back to the 1400's, and indeed link to an Enri O'Cathain. Their modern day surname bears no resemblance to Cain. A comparison between my haplotypes and theirs show GD Off-modal matches A 8 DYS439=13,DYS570=18 B 11 DYS439=13,DYS570=18 C 13 DYS439=13,DYS570=18 My matches to those with modern day surnames of Cain or variants are far more convincing. So I'm not even sure that all of the Cains & variants in the grouping are indeed O'Cathains. I must say I wish full sequencing would hurry along. This guessing business is quite time-consuming. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 25 May 2011 06:08 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Orcanus In a message dated 5/24/2011 11:38:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: Secondly, the word Cain actually means Law as in Cain of Adomnain = Law of Adomnan That may be so but O Cathain (whom you match) does not mean law. I don't see the derivation in MacLysaght but I think it means something like warrior. The guy claiming to be the O Cathain used to claim something like that anyway. <I must say I'm amused that McKechnie was quick to dismiss Orcanus as fantasy, I suspect he meant something by that but exactly what it might be is not apparent to me. John John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think a clue may lie in considering the sheer vastness of the lands the Lamonts had prior to the backing of Bailiol against the Bruce. It was virtually a kingdom, and a large one at that. But they have never claimed royal descent. I think Laumon and a son both married princesses, but there's no claim of descent from royalty down a male line as far as I know. So I think it is most likely to have come about through a male ancestor who was very senior in ecclesiastical rank. Beyond that, I'm confident that there is a link to Cain. Firstly, my DNA is Cain M222 lookalike but I match a Lamont 66/67. Secondly, the word Cain actually means Law as in Cain of Adomnain = Law of Adomnan Cain/McCain Lagman/Ladhmann/Lauman/Lamont I must say I'm amused that McKechnie was quick to dismiss Orcanus as fantasy, but he was very slow at trying to explain how the Lamonts ended up with a vastness of land that could indeed be described as fantastic in the modern day sense of the word. But I take your point about the use of O'. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 24 May 2011 23:02 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Orcanus In a message dated 5/24/2011 6:51:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: Doesn't seem likely to me, but the name and dates are close. He would have to have left Ireland for Alba for this to be true.

In a message dated 5/24/2011 11:38:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: Secondly, the word Cain actually means Law as in Cain of Adomnain = Law of Adomnan That may be so but O Cathain (whom you match) does not mean law. I don't see the derivation in MacLysaght but I think it means something like warrior. The guy claiming to be the O Cathain used to claim something like that anyway. <I must say I'm amused that McKechnie was quick to dismiss Orcanus as fantasy, I suspect he meant something by that but exactly what it might be is not apparent to me. John John

In a message dated 5/24/2011 6:51:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: Doesn't seem likely to me, but the name and dates are close. He would have to have left Ireland for Alba for this to be true. I think you need to find something with the "r" sound for a possibility. That's why I thought of Erc or Eirc. The name O'Cainus also makes little sense to me. Surnames weren't used prior to about 950 in Ireland. A man was described in terms of his father (mac) or grandfather (ua). You can see the development of fixed Irish surnames in the annals. Domhnall 'of Armagh', the High king of Ireland, was called Domhnall Ua Neill, not a surname but a reference to his grandfather, Nial glundubh. But his descendants were from then on called Ua Neill (now a surname). John

In a message dated 5/24/2011 12:15:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: So what you are saying is that pedigrees compiled by scribes were taken very seriously. But you seem to be saying more than that. You seem to be implying that the faking of a pedigree would have been considered a very serious crime indeed. I think that puts a very different light on the way we should consider the new transcript of manuscript 1467, or indeed any pedigree that would have been subject to Brehon law. I don't know about that. Faking pedigrees was almost a cottage industry in Ireland. I can name half a dozen off the top of my head - McMahon of Monaghan, O'Daly, O Cathain of Claire, McCabe, McCoughlan, McDonald of Scotland, the list goes on and on. John

Could the Orcanus spoken of by Sir James Lamont perhaps have been O'Cainus, or Cain Comrac who died in 898 according to the Four Masters 902 according to the annals of Ulster 903 according to the Cronicum Scotorum? "Orcanus, Laird of Lamont, quha livet about the nyn hundredth zeir of oure Lord" Doesn't seem likely to me, but the name and dates are close. He would have to have left Ireland for Alba for this to be true. Sandy

Daniel, You say there were not too many people of Irish heritage being slave holders in Kentucky in the early 1800s. How about Scots? David On 24/05/2011 10:35 AM, Daniel Jenkins wrote: > Daryl, > > I looked at some sources and found a Phillip Smith who deceased 11-10-1896 at Fayette age 51 . Is he your Phillip ? > > I also found a Phill Smith in 1870 census at Smith Mills age 25 , wife Martha age 22 , dau. Marg. age 3, son Harrison age 2, and son George age 7 mos. . Might that be him . > > I can't seem to find your Thomas Horace . Except death record of 9-5-1970 age 88. > > A match within 9 generations is quite large so I think working the paper trail back might prove to be better. > > What is the match , how many markers tested and how many match ? > > Since you identify as African American and The Smiths I found , state or enumerator states Colored or Black > > then you are likely thinking of an NPE , because of slavery issue . Since there were not too many people of Irish > > heritage in Kentucky being slave holders in the early 1800s I would tend to rule that out . > > Yet many things can happen . Do you know any more about the Carrigans ? > > Does your father have recollections of family stories that may be helpful ? > > You may want to consider the Family Tree DNA , new Family Finder test . > > A little costly at $289.00 but revealing all cousins for about 6 generations back , both maternal and fraternal . > > Dan Jenkins >

Hi Daryl I know of a McPhadrick Lamont who arrived in Charleston in 1711 as an indentured servant. That sounds a little like a fixed-term slave, someone bound for a fixed period, then free. His indenture lasted 7 years, then he headed off for the hills in North Carolina. It's not clear to me where he was indentured, but looking at a map of the USA, it could have been in Kentucky. Are the North Carolina hills to the West of North Carolina? I don't think this would have been your ancestor, but being a McPhadrick Lamont he was probably closely related to the McCaragan Lamonts, and it's plausible that a group of immigrants from Argyllshire targeted a general area in North America to migrate to because they were aware that some of their kinfolk had gone there. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Daryl W. Smith Sent: 24 May 2011 06:43 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA Mystery He was off by one marker on the Carrigan DNA.

Hi Daryl I think there's a good chance that you are a McCaragan Lamont from Coustoun, Cowal Peninsula, Argyllshire. Here's a link to what's called The Lamont Papers: http://www.archive.org/stream/scottishrecordso54scotuoft#page/n0/mode/2up If you type CARAGAN into the search box near the top-right corner, you'll find 6 references. The first one (page 306) is the most important. The second one (page 447) explains that Christian, son of Archibald McCaragan Lamont and Margaret McPherson is erroneously described as a Campbell. I think the fact that your dad's match with Carrigan is 42/43 suggests that a McCaragan Lamont migrated from Argyllshire to Ireland and then to North America. I stress 'suggests'. However, I seem to be descended from the McPhadrick Lamonts from Coustoun, which probably explains why your Dad and I match 39/43. So it does seem to fit, and maybe 'strongly suggests' is more appropriate than 'suggests'. Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Daryl W. Smith Sent: 24 May 2011 06:43 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA Mystery He was off by one marker on the Carrigan DNA. We have found other close matches on Ysearch.org. Nothing definitive. Close with Onan and some Smith's also. Daryl -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 1:27 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA Mystery Hi Daryl This fascinates me. As best I can tell, your father and I match 39/43. How close was the Carrigan match? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Daryl W. Smith Sent: 23 May 2011 23:14 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA Mystery Thank you Sandy. Daryl R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jerry I'll try and get it to you later today off-list. On-list though, a question. In a posting perhaps 6 weeks ago, you (at least I think it was you) spoke a little about Brehon law and children born out of wedlock. I gained the impression that there was no such thing as an illegitimate child under Brehon law. Is that correct? A more general question : What rights did children born outside formal marriages have? I'm curious, because my great grandfather was so born (albeit under British law). Also, out of interest, if person A adopted person B under Brehon law, would person A out-swear person B? Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 21:11 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. Would love to see that. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 3:02:25 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Jerry, Have you ever come across palimpsests used to convey extra information? I recently came across a birth record dated 1710 that could be an example. If you're interested, I can send you an image of it off-list. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 19:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. But you are right about the aos da/na enjoying puns and word-play. For example, we have Gaelic poems which have come down to us made up of series of homophones - words that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different meanings. If you listen to one of these poems one way, it means one thing. If you listen to it another way, the poem means something completely different all the way through. It depends upon the meaning you take for the first homophone in the poem. This was considered a very advanced art form and was used by the aos da/na to entertain each other. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 2:35:10 PM Subject: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names [But in the context of the underlying discussion (the new transcript of 1467), I'm beginning to wonder whether Domnail in line 27 wasn't perhaps Somerled himself. If so, it means we have to bin at least 6 names in the pedigree to end up with] That theory is blown. The scribe(s) Use Somairle for Somairle. No code, no hidden meanings, no nodanna. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 23 May 2011 12:27 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] heroic Gaelic names Thanks Jerry I assure you that did me no disservive at all. Quite the contrary, you did me a service by kick-starting my sometimes sluggish brain. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Daryl This fascinates me. As best I can tell, your father and I match 39/43. How close was the Carrigan match? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Daryl W. Smith Sent: 23 May 2011 23:14 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA Mystery Thank you Sandy. Daryl

Hi Jerry So what you are saying is that pedigrees compiled by scribes were taken very seriously. But you seem to be saying more than that. You seem to be implying that the faking of a pedigree would have been considered a very serious crime indeed. I think that puts a very different light on the way we should consider the new transcript of manuscript 1467, or indeed any pedigree that would have been subject to Brehon law. Many thanks for that. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 21:11 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play With that said, it's unlikely we'll see any word-play in the genealogies. Gaelic law doesn't provide for the Roman concept of "equal treatment under the law." My rights and privileges under Fe/ineachas are different from yours because we have different descent. It's likely that one of us has a higher enechlann / honor-price than the other, and so can outswear the other in court. That could drastically affect our futures, might even cost one of us life. Today, most of us look are looking at these ancient genealogies as a hobby. But for the people who used them, they had the effect of law, they were used constantly in law, and they were a matter of life and death. Best, Jerry

He was off by one marker on the Carrigan DNA. We have found other close matches on Ysearch.org. Nothing definitive. Close with Onan and some Smith's also. Daryl -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 1:27 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA Mystery Hi Daryl This fascinates me. As best I can tell, your father and I match 39/43. How close was the Carrigan match? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Daryl W. Smith Sent: 23 May 2011 23:14 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA Mystery Thank you Sandy. Daryl R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Daryl, I looked at some sources and found a Phillip Smith who deceased 11-10-1896 at Fayette age 51 . Is he your Phillip ? I also found a Phill Smith in 1870 census at Smith Mills age 25 , wife Martha age 22 , dau. Marg. age 3, son Harrison age 2, and son George age 7 mos. . Might that be him . I can't seem to find your Thomas Horace . Except death record of 9-5-1970 age 88. A match within 9 generations is quite large so I think working the paper trail back might prove to be better. What is the match , how many markers tested and how many match ? Since you identify as African American and The Smiths I found , state or enumerator states Colored or Black then you are likely thinking of an NPE , because of slavery issue . Since there were not too many people of Irish heritage in Kentucky being slave holders in the early 1800s I would tend to rule that out . Yet many things can happen . Do you know any more about the Carrigans ? Does your father have recollections of family stories that may be helpful ? You may want to consider the Family Tree DNA , new Family Finder test . A little costly at $289.00 but revealing all cousins for about 6 generations back , both maternal and fraternal . Dan Jenkins > From: darylwsmith@hotmail.com > To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 13:54:41 -0400 > Subject: [R-M222] DNA Mystery > > My family is African American. My dad's DNA profile and close matches on > Ancestry indicate a male ancestor from Europe, possibly Ireland. Our > research to date only goes back to the 1870 census. My father (William > Smith) was born in Georgetown, Kentucky in 1930. My Grandfather, Thomas > Horace Smith was born in Lexington, Kentucky in 1882 and died in 1970. My > Great-Grandfather (Phil or Phillip Smith) is on the 1870 census in > Lexington, Kentucky. I believe he is also on the 1880 census in Lexington > and I have a death record of a Phillip Smith who died in Lexington > 11/11/1896. Does anyone have advice on how to make the leap from what we > know to where the DNA trail is leading? Anyone out there with the same or > similar DNA results? I have found one family who owned slaves in Virginia > who Ancestry says we have a common ancestor within 9 generations. Our > closest match is to a Carrigan family, originally from Ireland, but we have > no idea how the paths of our families might have crossed in the past. We > are seeking to make contact with everyone within 10 generations on my dad's > Ancestry DNA report. > > > > All advice is greatly appreciated. I have included my father's DNA results > in this post. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Daryl > > > > DYS19a 14 > > DYS19b - > > DYS385a 11 > > DYS385b 13 > > DYS388 12 > > DYS389I 13 > > DYS389II 29 > > DYS390 25 > > DYS391 11 > > DYS392 14 > > DYS393 13 > > DYS426 12 > > DYS437 15 > > DYS438 12 > > DYS439 12 > > DYS441 14 > > DYS442 17 > > DYS444 12 > > DYS445 12 > > DYS446 13 > > DYS447 25 > > DYS448 18 > > DYS449 31 > > DYS452 30 > > DYS454 11 > > DYS455 11 > > DYS456 17 > > DYS458 16 > > DYS459a 9 > > DYS459b 10 > > DYS460 11 > > DYS461 12 > > DYS462 11 > > DYS463 24 > > DYS464a 15 > > DYS464b 16 > > DYS464c 16 > > DYS464d 16 > > DYS464e - > > DYS464f - > > GGAAT1B07 10 > > YCAIIa 19 > > YCAIIb 23 > > Y-GATA-A10 15 > > DYS635 23 > > Y-GATA-H4 12 > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have a copy of Phillip Smith's death certificate. I believe it is the right person. My Phillip is on the 1870 census with a family including Rosanna, Thomas, Samuel, Sallie, John, Horace, Emma, Hanna and Clay. There are several Horace Smith's in the Lexington area. Mine can be seen with wife Virginia on Ann Street in Lexington. My Grandfather, T H Smith, is on the census. In 1900 he is with his mother and step-father (Zephaniah Yates and Lucinda Yates). In other years he may be listed as Thomas Smith or T H Smith. He was a minister and served in several small towns surrounding Lexington. In 1910 he was in Lexington. In 1920 he was either in Midway or Georgetown, KY. In 1930 he was in Georgetown, KY. The Carrigan match I mentioned has one marker different. On DYS464d my dad is 16 while Carrigan is 17. Ancestry calls it a match within 6 generations. It looks like both of us have 46 markers tested. Our great challenge is that the common ancestor will be prior to Phillip Smith, who was apparently born around 1845. We hit a wall on the census at 1870. We are seeking fresh leads through DNA to hopefully piece together our family story. We have no knowledge beyond Phillip Smith. Based on an earlier post I have placed my father's profile on Ysearch.org. On that database I also see many individuals with Ireland as country of origin. Thanks to all for your kind help! Daryl -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Daniel Jenkins Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 8:36 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA Mystery Daryl, I looked at some sources and found a Phillip Smith who deceased 11-10-1896 at Fayette age 51 . Is he your Phillip ? I also found a Phill Smith in 1870 census at Smith Mills age 25 , wife Martha age 22 , dau. Marg. age 3, son Harrison age 2, and son George age 7 mos. . Might that be him . I can't seem to find your Thomas Horace . Except death record of 9-5-1970 age 88. A match within 9 generations is quite large so I think working the paper trail back might prove to be better. What is the match , how many markers tested and how many match ? Since you identify as African American and The Smiths I found , state or enumerator states Colored or Black then you are likely thinking of an NPE , because of slavery issue . Since there were not too many people of Irish heritage in Kentucky being slave holders in the early 1800s I would tend to rule that out . Yet many things can happen . Do you know any more about the Carrigans ? Does your father have recollections of family stories that may be helpful ? You may want to consider the Family Tree DNA , new Family Finder test . A little costly at $289.00 but revealing all cousins for about 6 generations back , both maternal and fraternal . Dan Jenkins > From: darylwsmith@hotmail.com > To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com > Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 13:54:41 -0400 > Subject: [R-M222] DNA Mystery > > My family is African American. My dad's DNA profile and close matches on > Ancestry indicate a male ancestor from Europe, possibly Ireland. Our > research to date only goes back to the 1870 census. My father (William > Smith) was born in Georgetown, Kentucky in 1930. My Grandfather, Thomas > Horace Smith was born in Lexington, Kentucky in 1882 and died in 1970. My > Great-Grandfather (Phil or Phillip Smith) is on the 1870 census in > Lexington, Kentucky. I believe he is also on the 1880 census in Lexington > and I have a death record of a Phillip Smith who died in Lexington > 11/11/1896. Does anyone have advice on how to make the leap from what we > know to where the DNA trail is leading? Anyone out there with the same or > similar DNA results? I have found one family who owned slaves in Virginia > who Ancestry says we have a common ancestor within 9 generations. Our > closest match is to a Carrigan family, originally from Ireland, but we have > no idea how the paths of our families might have crossed in the past. We > are seeking to make contact with everyone within 10 generations on my dad's > Ancestry DNA report. > > > > All advice is greatly appreciated. I have included my father's DNA results > in this post. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Daryl > > > > DYS19a 14 > > DYS19b - > > DYS385a 11 > > DYS385b 13 > > DYS388 12 > > DYS389I 13 > > DYS389II 29 > > DYS390 25 > > DYS391 11 > > DYS392 14 > > DYS393 13 > > DYS426 12 > > DYS437 15 > > DYS438 12 > > DYS439 12 > > DYS441 14 > > DYS442 17 > > DYS444 12 > > DYS445 12 > > DYS446 13 > > DYS447 25 > > DYS448 18 > > DYS449 31 > > DYS452 30 > > DYS454 11 > > DYS455 11 > > DYS456 17 > > DYS458 16 > > DYS459a 9 > > DYS459b 10 > > DYS460 11 > > DYS461 12 > > DYS462 11 > > DYS463 24 > > DYS464a 15 > > DYS464b 16 > > DYS464c 16 > > DYS464d 16 > > DYS464e - > > DYS464f - > > GGAAT1B07 10 > > YCAIIa 19 > > YCAIIb 23 > > Y-GATA-A10 15 > > DYS635 23 > > Y-GATA-H4 12 > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Not if you are posting 43 marker DNA Ancestry results? Iain > Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 14:17:53 -0600 > From: davidewing93@gmail.com > To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA Mystery > > Welcome to the list, Mr. Smith. > > As a first step, you should upload your results to YSearch. This can be done > from your FTDNA personal page.

>From: Daniel Jenkins <dan_jenkins66@hotmail.com> > >Since you identify as African American and The Smiths I found , state or enumerator states Colored or Black >then you are likely thinking of an NPE , because of slavery issue . Since there were not too many people of Irish >heritage in Kentucky being slave holders in the early 1800s I would tend to rule that out . What's the basis for this assertion? From surname research I know that a couple of my gggrandfather's brothers owned a few slaves in Montgomery Co., KY pre-1830, and a Slavin family line in Garrard County also owned a few in the same time period. Both of these families would be Irish and M-222. I strongly suspect that one of my ggggrandfather's brothers in Tennessee was the father of a mulatto man who eventually served in the Civil War and settled in Kansas. So I don't see it as unlikely that the trail may go back to an Irish or Scot-Irish Kentuckian who had a small farm and two or three slaves. Larry

Hi Daryl I don't really have advice for you, but I've recently been looking at the DNA of people with names close to McCaragan. Carrigan would be close. I have reason to believe I'm quite closely related to McCaragan and don't think my DNA is that far from yours but I'll have a closer look tomorrow. I'm pretty sure it's not as close as 9 generations, but it's probably worth a close look. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Daryl W. Smith Sent: 23 May 2011 18:55 To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] DNA Mystery My family is African American.

Jerry, Have you ever come across palimpsests used to convey extra information? I recently came across a birth record dated 1710 that could be an example. If you're interested, I can send you an image of it off-list. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 19:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. But you are right about the aos da/na enjoying puns and word-play. For example, we have Gaelic poems which have come down to us made up of series of homophones - words that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different meanings. If you listen to one of these poems one way, it means one thing. If you listen to it another way, the poem means something completely different all the way through. It depends upon the meaning you take for the first homophone in the poem. This was considered a very advanced art form and was used by the aos da/na to entertain each other. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 2:35:10 PM Subject: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names [But in the context of the underlying discussion (the new transcript of 1467), I'm beginning to wonder whether Domnail in line 27 wasn't perhaps Somerled himself. If so, it means we have to bin at least 6 names in the pedigree to end up with] That theory is blown. The scribe(s) Use Somairle for Somairle. No code, no hidden meanings, no nodanna. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 23 May 2011 12:27 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] heroic Gaelic names Thanks Jerry I assure you that did me no disservive at all. Quite the contrary, you did me a service by kick-starting my sometimes sluggish brain. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message