Paul/Jerry > I wonder if: Myrkjartan = McCartan > I have no idea why, but I think you're spot on. Can you help me with something? If Mac Giolla Eain = McLean could MacErachar/MacFerchar = McHarg/McHargue If so, that could explain why my Y-STR is so close to McHarg. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: 26 May 2011 18:00 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Icelandic M222 David, Very Interesting. I wonder if: Myrkjartan = McCartan On 23AndMe I have an Icelandic relative! Cheers, Paul On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 12:17 PM, David H. MacLennan < david.maclennan@utoronto.ca> wrote: > > I realize that this forum is about Scots M222 DNA and that is of great > interest to me also. However, I think that everyone would also like to find > a genealogy going back to 900 AD or so that would actually link up with the > Ui Niall. Perhaps the one place in Europe where fairly accurate genealogies > were maintained since that period was in Iceland. My mother was Icelandic > and I have her family tree going back to the settlement times in the late > 800s. > You are certainly all aware that the Vikings who settled Iceland (and > Ireland) had no qualms about bringing Irish slaves back to Iceland and > their > intermingling with the Irish may well have led to Irishmen joining the > Vikings in their escapades willingly. One of the most famous was Melkorka, > an Irish Princess, who was brought as a concubine to Iceland by a powerful > and wealthy Viking named Hoskuldur. She was so pissed off by her captors > and > her captivity that she refused to speak and was believed to be mute. One > day > she was heard singing in the meadow to her children and the truth was out! > She then told them of her heritage and produced a gold token of her > lineage. > Her son "Olaf the Peacock", was the handsomest man in Iceland and, > obviously, a member of a powerful line. As a Viking, he made his way back > to > Ireland and met his grandfather, Myrkjartan. Ólaf was accepted by > Myrkjartan, who even offered to make him his heir. However, Ólaf returned > to > Iceland. This history is in the Laxdaela Saga of Snorri Sturlasson, written > in the 1200s. > The point I wish to make is that Icelandic carriers of the M222 > haplotype might have a lineage that could be traced accurately back to the > settlement of Iceland before 900 AD. The question would then be whether a > connection could be made back to an Irish family, as was done in the case > of > Melkorka. Has anyone made a serious investigation of Icelandic M222 > individuals and their genalogy? > Incidentally, I can trace my own lineage back to Melkorka and might even > carry a few percent of her autosomal DNA. > David > > -- > Dr. David H. MacLennan, > Banting and Best Department of Medical Research, > University of Toronto, Charles H. Best Institute, > 112 College St., Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G1L6 > Tel:1-416-978-5008 Fax:1-416-978-8528 > http://www.utoronto.ca/maclennan > > > > From: <Lochlan@aol.com> > > Reply-To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > > Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:51:11 EDT > > To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > > Subject: [R-M222] M222 Files > > > > I'm going to pass along an email I received from one of the admins. of > the > > L21 Project. The links given require a Yahoo ID and password to view > > them. So far I haven't been able to remember my old Yahoo password so I > > haven't been able to look at them yet myself. > > > > Dear John and David, > > > > Please invite the M222 project members to access this and comment on > this > > this file which includes them. > > > > M222 is a key part of L21 and I've developed a spreadsheet based system > to > > download L21+ haplotypes, including M222+, from multiple FTDNA projects. > I > > maintain post the spreadsheet file at the web site and Yahoo Group > listed > > below for all who are interested. > > > > I attempt to designate "speculative" clusters or deep ancestral > varieties > > for everyone in the file. I need help on this so would appreciate any > > commentary from M222 folks. I also try to look up the Ysearch IDs and > insert > > the > > correct MDKA info and categorize by geography (down to the > > county/department/shire level) so statisical analysis can be done easily > by > > geography. > > > > Regards, > > Mike Walsh > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: > > <_RL21Project@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:RL21Project@yahoogroups.com) > > > Date: Tue, May 24, 2011 at 6:59 PM > > Subject: [RL21Project] New file uploaded to RL21Project > > > > > > > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been > > uploaded to the Files area of the RL21Project > > group. > > > > File : /R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip > > Uploaded by : mikewww7 <_mwwdna@gmail.com_ (mailto:mwwdna@gmail.com) > > > Description : R-L21+ Confirmed and Suspected Haplotypes including M222 > and > > all subclades with latest downstream SNP results. 2011-05-24 version - > > M.Walsh > > > > You can access this file at the URL: > > _ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip_ > > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip > ) > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > > _ > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html_ > > (http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html > ) > > To join the R-L21 Yahoo group and get access to the files go to > > _http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/join > > _ ( > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html) > > Regards, > > R-L21 Plus Project Co-Admin > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 5/26/2011 3:07:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, pabloburns@comcast.net writes: John, I open very few messages on this forum anymore since most seem off-topic, but since Mike Walsh's really concerned M222, I attempted to view it. However, Yahoo informed me that "The requested file or directory is not found on the server." I tried his link and got a Yahoo page demanding that I log in. That's as far as I can get for now. John

Jerry, Where is a good place to search for descendants of ecclesiastics? If I'm right about the Lamonts having obtained the huge tracts of land that they appeared to have owned at one stage through descent from an ecclesiastical ancestor, it's just possible that we may be able to better understand the Lamont pedigree in the new transcript of manuscript 1467. There are already, in my opinion, good clues to be gained from DNA, although Lamont DNA at this stage is quite difficult to interpret. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 26 May 2011 16:45 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] abbots, abbesses, and heirs Hi Jane, Yes, that's a good example of the Celtic churches at work. I remember that Paul pointed this one out. So when evaluating ancient genealogies, it's important not to ignore the ecclesiastics as contributors to the gene pool. Their were many hereditary ecclesiastical families, called 'erenaghs' in English and airchinnigh (the plural of airchinneach) in the Gaelic languages Le gach dea-ghui/, Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Jane <JaneKaschak@sbcglobal.net> To: "jerrykelly@att.net" <jerrykelly@att.net>; "dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thu, May 26, 2011 9:48:29 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] abbots, abbesses, and heirs I have discovered that my McAnaspy's are translated, son of the bishop, it appears to be a rare Gaelic name. Sent from my iPhone On May 17, 2011, at 1:06 PM, jerrykelly@att.net wrote: > A chairde / Friends, > > As you know, celibacy was not a requirement of the early Church in Ireland > and Scotland. Instead, it was a special mark of sanctity chosen by few. > > I can't find the exact reference at the moment, wish I could, but many monks > had as many as 3 wives in honor of the Patriarchs. Around the 8-9th > Centuries, the Irish church tried to convince the monks to keep it down to 1 > wife, and got a lot of flak from the rank and file for defying Biblical > tradition. > > Here is a related comment from the law text known as Bretha Crólige: > > > > There is dispute in Irish law as to which is more proper, whether many > sexual unions or a single one: for the chosen people of God lived in > plurality of unions. (Kelly, Fergus. A Guide to Early Irish Law. Dublin: > Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1998. p. 71) > > > This non-celibate tradition is reflected by some of our surnames, including: > > MacTaggart - Mac an tSagairt - Son of the Priest > MacAnerny - Mac an Airchinnigh - Son of the Airchinneach ('Erenagh' in > English) > MacNabb - Mac an Abbadh - Son of the Abbot > > Monasteries were handed down within the hereditary 'erenagh' families, some > of whom were royal. These families were expected to staff these > institutions with their descendants. Choice of leadership and ownership was > by Féineachas ('Brehon Law'), within the electable derbh-fhine ('true > family' sharing common descent from a common great-grandfather). > Ecclesiastics were called by both God and blood, so the Church was strong > and constantly expanding, in contrast to what we see today. > > Examples of royal abbesses and abbots include St. Brighid, Abbess and Bishop > of Cill Dara ('Kildare'). And, of course, Colm Cille. As you know, Colm > Cille was of the righ-damhna or 'stuff of kings' of the Cinéal Chonaill, > electable as their King at a time when the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill > of the North, especially the Cinéal Chonaill and Cinéal nEoghain) were busy > creating the High-Kingship of Ireland. > > Colm Cille remained celebate so his successors like Adamnán were close > relatives of his, also royal, rather than direct descendants. Right up > until the point that they were extinguished, the Columban daughter houses > were typically staffed at the top with close relatives of Colm Cille. Many > of these successors married and had children. Some of these in turn became > comh-arba ('heirs' or 'successors') of Colm Cille. > > I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, marriage by priests, monks, and > nuns was common right up until the imposition of English Common Law in 1603. > At that point, the territories owned by the erenagh families and all > properties owned by right of descent from married ecclesiastics were > escheated to the English crown on the basis of 'bastardry' - no legitimate > heir. > > Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. > > Best, > Jerry > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I also wonder where R-M222 originated. Do the Ewing have the oldest know haplotypes in our haplogroup? The Ewing are from Scotland. It is obvious that R-M222 first proliferated in Ireland.

David, Very Interesting. I wonder if: Myrkjartan = McCartan On 23AndMe I have an Icelandic relative! Cheers, Paul On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 12:17 PM, David H. MacLennan < david.maclennan@utoronto.ca> wrote: > > I realize that this forum is about Scots M222 DNA and that is of great > interest to me also. However, I think that everyone would also like to find > a genealogy going back to 900 AD or so that would actually link up with the > Ui Niall. Perhaps the one place in Europe where fairly accurate genealogies > were maintained since that period was in Iceland. My mother was Icelandic > and I have her family tree going back to the settlement times in the late > 800s. > You are certainly all aware that the Vikings who settled Iceland (and > Ireland) had no qualms about bringing Irish slaves back to Iceland and > their > intermingling with the Irish may well have led to Irishmen joining the > Vikings in their escapades willingly. One of the most famous was Melkorka, > an Irish Princess, who was brought as a concubine to Iceland by a powerful > and wealthy Viking named Hoskuldur. She was so pissed off by her captors > and > her captivity that she refused to speak and was believed to be mute. One > day > she was heard singing in the meadow to her children and the truth was out! > She then told them of her heritage and produced a gold token of her > lineage. > Her son "Olaf the Peacock", was the handsomest man in Iceland and, > obviously, a member of a powerful line. As a Viking, he made his way back > to > Ireland and met his grandfather, Myrkjartan. Ólaf was accepted by > Myrkjartan, who even offered to make him his heir. However, Ólaf returned > to > Iceland. This history is in the Laxdaela Saga of Snorri Sturlasson, written > in the 1200s. > The point I wish to make is that Icelandic carriers of the M222 > haplotype might have a lineage that could be traced accurately back to the > settlement of Iceland before 900 AD. The question would then be whether a > connection could be made back to an Irish family, as was done in the case > of > Melkorka. Has anyone made a serious investigation of Icelandic M222 > individuals and their genalogy? > Incidentally, I can trace my own lineage back to Melkorka and might even > carry a few percent of her autosomal DNA. > David > > -- > Dr. David H. MacLennan, > Banting and Best Department of Medical Research, > University of Toronto, Charles H. Best Institute, > 112 College St., Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G1L6 > Tel:1-416-978-5008 Fax:1-416-978-8528 > http://www.utoronto.ca/maclennan > > > > From: <Lochlan@aol.com> > > Reply-To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > > Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:51:11 EDT > > To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > > Subject: [R-M222] M222 Files > > > > I'm going to pass along an email I received from one of the admins. of > the > > L21 Project. The links given require a Yahoo ID and password to view > > them. So far I haven't been able to remember my old Yahoo password so I > > haven't been able to look at them yet myself. > > > > Dear John and David, > > > > Please invite the M222 project members to access this and comment on > this > > this file which includes them. > > > > M222 is a key part of L21 and I've developed a spreadsheet based system > to > > download L21+ haplotypes, including M222+, from multiple FTDNA projects. > I > > maintain post the spreadsheet file at the web site and Yahoo Group > listed > > below for all who are interested. > > > > I attempt to designate "speculative" clusters or deep ancestral > varieties > > for everyone in the file. I need help on this so would appreciate any > > commentary from M222 folks. I also try to look up the Ysearch IDs and > insert > > the > > correct MDKA info and categorize by geography (down to the > > county/department/shire level) so statisical analysis can be done easily > by > > geography. > > > > Regards, > > Mike Walsh > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: > > <_RL21Project@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:RL21Project@yahoogroups.com) > > > Date: Tue, May 24, 2011 at 6:59 PM > > Subject: [RL21Project] New file uploaded to RL21Project > > > > > > > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been > > uploaded to the Files area of the RL21Project > > group. > > > > File : /R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip > > Uploaded by : mikewww7 <_mwwdna@gmail.com_ (mailto:mwwdna@gmail.com) > > > Description : R-L21+ Confirmed and Suspected Haplotypes including M222 > and > > all subclades with latest downstream SNP results. 2011-05-24 version - > > M.Walsh > > > > You can access this file at the URL: > > _ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip_ > > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip > ) > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > > _ > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html_ > > (http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html > ) > > To join the R-L21 Yahoo group and get access to the files go to > > _http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/join > > _ ( > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html) > > Regards, > > R-L21 Plus Project Co-Admin > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I realize that this forum is about Scots M222 DNA and that is of great interest to me also. However, I think that everyone would also like to find a genealogy going back to 900 AD or so that would actually link up with the Ui Niall. Perhaps the one place in Europe where fairly accurate genealogies were maintained since that period was in Iceland. My mother was Icelandic and I have her family tree going back to the settlement times in the late 800s. You are certainly all aware that the Vikings who settled Iceland (and Ireland) had no qualms about bringing Irish slaves back to Iceland and their intermingling with the Irish may well have led to Irishmen joining the Vikings in their escapades willingly. One of the most famous was Melkorka, an Irish Princess, who was brought as a concubine to Iceland by a powerful and wealthy Viking named Hoskuldur. She was so pissed off by her captors and her captivity that she refused to speak and was believed to be mute. One day she was heard singing in the meadow to her children and the truth was out! She then told them of her heritage and produced a gold token of her lineage. Her son "Olaf the Peacock", was the handsomest man in Iceland and, obviously, a member of a powerful line. As a Viking, he made his way back to Ireland and met his grandfather, Myrkjartan. Ólaf was accepted by Myrkjartan, who even offered to make him his heir. However, Ólaf returned to Iceland. This history is in the Laxdaela Saga of Snorri Sturlasson, written in the 1200s. The point I wish to make is that Icelandic carriers of the M222 haplotype might have a lineage that could be traced accurately back to the settlement of Iceland before 900 AD. The question would then be whether a connection could be made back to an Irish family, as was done in the case of Melkorka. Has anyone made a serious investigation of Icelandic M222 individuals and their genalogy? Incidentally, I can trace my own lineage back to Melkorka and might even carry a few percent of her autosomal DNA. David -- Dr. David H. MacLennan, Banting and Best Department of Medical Research, University of Toronto, Charles H. Best Institute, 112 College St., Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G1L6 Tel:1-416-978-5008 Fax:1-416-978-8528 http://www.utoronto.ca/maclennan > From: <Lochlan@aol.com> > Reply-To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:51:11 EDT > To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Subject: [R-M222] M222 Files > > I'm going to pass along an email I received from one of the admins. of the > L21 Project. The links given require a Yahoo ID and password to view > them. So far I haven't been able to remember my old Yahoo password so I > haven't been able to look at them yet myself. > > Dear John and David, > > Please invite the M222 project members to access this and comment on this > this file which includes them. > > M222 is a key part of L21 and I've developed a spreadsheet based system to > download L21+ haplotypes, including M222+, from multiple FTDNA projects. I > maintain post the spreadsheet file at the web site and Yahoo Group listed > below for all who are interested. > > I attempt to designate "speculative" clusters or deep ancestral varieties > for everyone in the file. I need help on this so would appreciate any > commentary from M222 folks. I also try to look up the Ysearch IDs and insert > the > correct MDKA info and categorize by geography (down to the > county/department/shire level) so statisical analysis can be done easily by > geography. > > Regards, > Mike Walsh > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: > <_RL21Project@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:RL21Project@yahoogroups.com) > > Date: Tue, May 24, 2011 at 6:59 PM > Subject: [RL21Project] New file uploaded to RL21Project > > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been > uploaded to the Files area of the RL21Project > group. > > File : /R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip > Uploaded by : mikewww7 <_mwwdna@gmail.com_ (mailto:mwwdna@gmail.com) > > Description : R-L21+ Confirmed and Suspected Haplotypes including M222 and > all subclades with latest downstream SNP results. 2011-05-24 version - > M.Walsh > > You can access this file at the URL: > _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip_ > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip) > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > _http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html_ > (http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html) > To join the R-L21 Yahoo group and get access to the files go to > _http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/join > _ (http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html) > Regards, > R-L21 Plus Project Co-Admin > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Jane, Yeah, I mentioned this already, it's usually Anglicized as McAnespie - and not that rare a name. On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:48 AM, Jane <JaneKaschak@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > I have discovered that my McAnaspy's are translated, son of the bishop, it > appears to be a rare Gaelic name. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On May 17, 2011, at 1:06 PM, jerrykelly@att.net wrote: > > > A chairde / Friends, > > > > As you know, celibacy was not a requirement of the early Church in > Ireland > > and Scotland. Instead, it was a special mark of sanctity chosen by few. > > > > I can't find the exact reference at the moment, wish I could, but many > monks > > had as many as 3 wives in honor of the Patriarchs. Around the 8-9th > > Centuries, the Irish church tried to convince the monks to keep it down > to 1 > > wife, and got a lot of flak from the rank and file for defying Biblical > > tradition. > > > > Here is a related comment from the law text known as Bretha Crólige: > > > > > > > > There is dispute in Irish law as to which is more proper, whether many > > sexual unions or a single one: for the chosen people of God lived in > > plurality of unions. (Kelly, Fergus. A Guide to Early Irish Law. > Dublin: > > Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1998. p. 71) > > > > > > This non-celibate tradition is reflected by some of our surnames, > including: > > > > MacTaggart - Mac an tSagairt - Son of the Priest > > MacAnerny - Mac an Airchinnigh - Son of the Airchinneach ('Erenagh' in > > English) > > MacNabb - Mac an Abbadh - Son of the Abbot > > > > Monasteries were handed down within the hereditary 'erenagh' families, > some > > of whom were royal. These families were expected to staff these > > institutions with their descendants. Choice of leadership and ownership > was > > by Féineachas ('Brehon Law'), within the electable derbh-fhine ('true > > family' sharing common descent from a common great-grandfather). > > Ecclesiastics were called by both God and blood, so the Church was strong > > and constantly expanding, in contrast to what we see today. > > > > Examples of royal abbesses and abbots include St. Brighid, Abbess and > Bishop > > of Cill Dara ('Kildare'). And, of course, Colm Cille. As you know, Colm > > Cille was of the righ-damhna or 'stuff of kings' of the Cinéal Chonaill, > > electable as their King at a time when the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí > Néill > > of the North, especially the Cinéal Chonaill and Cinéal nEoghain) were > busy > > creating the High-Kingship of Ireland. > > > > Colm Cille remained celebate so his successors like Adamnán were close > > relatives of his, also royal, rather than direct descendants. Right up > > until the point that they were extinguished, the Columban daughter houses > > were typically staffed at the top with close relatives of Colm Cille. > Many > > of these successors married and had children. Some of these in turn > became > > comh-arba ('heirs' or 'successors') of Colm Cille. > > > > I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, marriage by priests, monks, > and > > nuns was common right up until the imposition of English Common Law in > 1603. > > At that point, the territories owned by the erenagh families and all > > properties owned by right of descent from married ecclesiastics were > > escheated to the English crown on the basis of 'bastardry' - no > legitimate > > heir. > > > > Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. > > > > Best, > > Jerry > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have discovered that my McAnaspy's are translated, son of the bishop, it appears to be a rare Gaelic name. Sent from my iPhone On May 17, 2011, at 1:06 PM, jerrykelly@att.net wrote: > A chairde / Friends, > > As you know, celibacy was not a requirement of the early Church in Ireland > and Scotland. Instead, it was a special mark of sanctity chosen by few. > > I can't find the exact reference at the moment, wish I could, but many monks > had as many as 3 wives in honor of the Patriarchs. Around the 8-9th > Centuries, the Irish church tried to convince the monks to keep it down to 1 > wife, and got a lot of flak from the rank and file for defying Biblical > tradition. > > Here is a related comment from the law text known as Bretha Crólige: > > > > There is dispute in Irish law as to which is more proper, whether many > sexual unions or a single one: for the chosen people of God lived in > plurality of unions. (Kelly, Fergus. A Guide to Early Irish Law. Dublin: > Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1998. p. 71) > > > This non-celibate tradition is reflected by some of our surnames, including: > > MacTaggart - Mac an tSagairt - Son of the Priest > MacAnerny - Mac an Airchinnigh - Son of the Airchinneach ('Erenagh' in > English) > MacNabb - Mac an Abbadh - Son of the Abbot > > Monasteries were handed down within the hereditary 'erenagh' families, some > of whom were royal. These families were expected to staff these > institutions with their descendants. Choice of leadership and ownership was > by Féineachas ('Brehon Law'), within the electable derbh-fhine ('true > family' sharing common descent from a common great-grandfather). > Ecclesiastics were called by both God and blood, so the Church was strong > and constantly expanding, in contrast to what we see today. > > Examples of royal abbesses and abbots include St. Brighid, Abbess and Bishop > of Cill Dara ('Kildare'). And, of course, Colm Cille. As you know, Colm > Cille was of the righ-damhna or 'stuff of kings' of the Cinéal Chonaill, > electable as their King at a time when the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill > of the North, especially the Cinéal Chonaill and Cinéal nEoghain) were busy > creating the High-Kingship of Ireland. > > Colm Cille remained celebate so his successors like Adamnán were close > relatives of his, also royal, rather than direct descendants. Right up > until the point that they were extinguished, the Columban daughter houses > were typically staffed at the top with close relatives of Colm Cille. Many > of these successors married and had children. Some of these in turn became > comh-arba ('heirs' or 'successors') of Colm Cille. > > I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, marriage by priests, monks, and > nuns was common right up until the imposition of English Common Law in 1603. > At that point, the territories owned by the erenagh families and all > properties owned by right of descent from married ecclesiastics were > escheated to the English crown on the basis of 'bastardry' - no legitimate > heir. > > Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. > > Best, > Jerry > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jane, Yes, that's a good example of the Celtic churches at work. I remember that Paul pointed this one out. So when evaluating ancient genealogies, it's important not to ignore the ecclesiastics as contributors to the gene pool. Their were many hereditary ecclesiastical families, called 'erenaghs' in English and airchinnigh (the plural of airchinneach) in the Gaelic languages Le gach dea-ghui/, Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Jane <JaneKaschak@sbcglobal.net> To: "jerrykelly@att.net" <jerrykelly@att.net>; "dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thu, May 26, 2011 9:48:29 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] abbots, abbesses, and heirs I have discovered that my McAnaspy's are translated, son of the bishop, it appears to be a rare Gaelic name. Sent from my iPhone On May 17, 2011, at 1:06 PM, jerrykelly@att.net wrote: > A chairde / Friends, > > As you know, celibacy was not a requirement of the early Church in Ireland > and Scotland. Instead, it was a special mark of sanctity chosen by few. > > I can't find the exact reference at the moment, wish I could, but many monks > had as many as 3 wives in honor of the Patriarchs. Around the 8-9th > Centuries, the Irish church tried to convince the monks to keep it down to 1 > wife, and got a lot of flak from the rank and file for defying Biblical > tradition. > > Here is a related comment from the law text known as Bretha Crólige: > > > > There is dispute in Irish law as to which is more proper, whether many > sexual unions or a single one: for the chosen people of God lived in > plurality of unions. (Kelly, Fergus. A Guide to Early Irish Law. Dublin: > Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1998. p. 71) > > > This non-celibate tradition is reflected by some of our surnames, including: > > MacTaggart - Mac an tSagairt - Son of the Priest > MacAnerny - Mac an Airchinnigh - Son of the Airchinneach ('Erenagh' in > English) > MacNabb - Mac an Abbadh - Son of the Abbot > > Monasteries were handed down within the hereditary 'erenagh' families, some > of whom were royal. These families were expected to staff these > institutions with their descendants. Choice of leadership and ownership was > by Féineachas ('Brehon Law'), within the electable derbh-fhine ('true > family' sharing common descent from a common great-grandfather). > Ecclesiastics were called by both God and blood, so the Church was strong > and constantly expanding, in contrast to what we see today. > > Examples of royal abbesses and abbots include St. Brighid, Abbess and Bishop > of Cill Dara ('Kildare'). And, of course, Colm Cille. As you know, Colm > Cille was of the righ-damhna or 'stuff of kings' of the Cinéal Chonaill, > electable as their King at a time when the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill > of the North, especially the Cinéal Chonaill and Cinéal nEoghain) were busy > creating the High-Kingship of Ireland. > > Colm Cille remained celebate so his successors like Adamnán were close > relatives of his, also royal, rather than direct descendants. Right up > until the point that they were extinguished, the Columban daughter houses > were typically staffed at the top with close relatives of Colm Cille. Many > of these successors married and had children. Some of these in turn became > comh-arba ('heirs' or 'successors') of Colm Cille. > > I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, marriage by priests, monks, and > nuns was common right up until the imposition of English Common Law in 1603. > At that point, the territories owned by the erenagh families and all > properties owned by right of descent from married ecclesiastics were > escheated to the English crown on the basis of 'bastardry' - no legitimate > heir. > > Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. > > Best, > Jerry > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message

John, I open very few messages on this forum anymore since most seem off-topic, but since Mike Walsh's really concerned M222, I attempted to view it. However, Yahoo informed me that "The requested file or directory is not found on the server." Paul

I found my old Yahoo details and got as far as a page from which you have to Activate Web Access. On that page you are required to enter the e-mail address that currently receives messages from the group RL21 project. So it seems you first have to join the RL21 project before you can activate access. The idea looks interesting and it just may be worth going through the pain of having to drag something out of memory and going through the process of joining the RL21 project. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 25 May 2011 23:51 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] M222 Files I'm going to pass along an email I received from one of the admins. of the L21 Project. The links given require a Yahoo ID and password to view them. So far I haven't been able to remember my old Yahoo password so I haven't been able to look at them yet myself. Dear John and David, Please invite the M222 project members to access this and comment on this this file which includes them. M222 is a key part of L21 and I've developed a spreadsheet based system to download L21+ haplotypes, including M222+, from multiple FTDNA projects. I maintain post the spreadsheet file at the web site and Yahoo Group listed below for all who are interested. I attempt to designate "speculative" clusters or deep ancestral varieties for everyone in the file. I need help on this so would appreciate any commentary from M222 folks. I also try to look up the Ysearch IDs and insert the correct MDKA info and categorize by geography (down to the county/department/shire level) so statisical analysis can be done easily by geography. Regards, Mike Walsh ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: <_RL21Project@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:RL21Project@yahoogroups.com) > Date: Tue, May 24, 2011 at 6:59 PM Subject: [RL21Project] New file uploaded to RL21Project This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the RL21Project group. File : /R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip Uploaded by : mikewww7 <_mwwdna@gmail.com_ (mailto:mwwdna@gmail.com) > Description : R-L21+ Confirmed and Suspected Haplotypes including M222 and all subclades with latest downstream SNP results. 2011-05-24 version - M.Walsh You can access this file at the URL: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip) To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: _http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html_ (http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html) To join the R-L21 Yahoo group and get access to the files go to _http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/join _ (http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html) Regards, R-L21 Plus Project Co-Admin R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 5/25/2011 9:00:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time, donmilligan@comcast.net writes: IN ORDER TO VIEW THIS NEW L-21+ RESOURCE AT YAHOO, IS ALL I HAVE TO DO IS OBTAIN A YAHOO PASSWORD, OR TRY TO FIND MY OLD PASSWORD, IF INDEED I HAVE ONE & HAVE FORGOTTEN IT? I'm not sure about Yahoo. I think you can use an email address as ID but then you need your old password. I didn't remember either one so I was out of luck. You could set up a new ID and password. I think I already did that about three times. This ID and password business is getting out of hand. John

According to my understanding. R222 is found throughout Ireland at the rate of ca. 12% with concentrations in the north where Sligo and Donegal reach ca. 20%. It is also found in Lowland Scotland at a rate of ca. 8 to 12% but is much rarer in the Highlands. On the other hand Irish genealogies frequently link up with the Scottish Highlands but not the Lowlands. There was a known colonization from Ireland into the Dalriada (Highland) area of Scotland. Since however R222 is found in both Ireland and the Lowlands and spontaneous generation is not accepted some type of ancestral connection must be assumed. The questions I would like to raise may have already been discussed on this list but I do not remember it. Is it possible that R222 came to Ireland from elsewhere via the Scottish Lowlands? If the relative high level of R222 in the Lowlands is considered to have originated from Ireland does any historical explanation exist? When did it take place? Yair Davidiy, Jerusalem, Israel.

HI JOHN: SOUNDS LIKE SOME GOOD NEWE. BEING COMPUTER CHALENGED TO THE 100TH DEGREE, I WOULD APPRECIATE FURTHER COACHING: I BELIEVE I'M ON THE CURRENT FTDNA L-21+ (OR SHOULD BE). IN ORDER TO VIEW THIS NEW L-21+ RESOURCE AT YAHOO, IS ALL I HAVE TO DO IS OBTAIN A YAHOO PASSWORD, OR TRY TO FIND MY OLD PASSWORD, IF INDEED I HAVE ONE & HAVE FORGOTTEN IT? THANKS, DON M -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 3:51 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] M222 Files I'm going to pass along an email I received from one of the admins. of the L21 Project. The links given require a Yahoo ID and password to view them. So far I haven't been able to remember my old Yahoo password so I haven't been able to look at them yet myself. Dear John and David, Please invite the M222 project members to access this and comment on this this file which includes them. M222 is a key part of L21 and I've developed a spreadsheet based system to download L21+ haplotypes, including M222+, from multiple FTDNA projects. I maintain post the spreadsheet file at the web site and Yahoo Group listed below for all who are interested. I attempt to designate "speculative" clusters or deep ancestral varieties for everyone in the file. I need help on this so would appreciate any commentary from M222 folks. I also try to look up the Ysearch IDs and insert the correct MDKA info and categorize by geography (down to the county/department/shire level) so statisical analysis can be done easily by geography. Regards, Mike Walsh ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: <_RL21Project@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:RL21Project@yahoogroups.com) > Date: Tue, May 24, 2011 at 6:59 PM Subject: [RL21Project] New file uploaded to RL21Project This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the RL21Project group. File : /R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip Uploaded by : mikewww7 <_mwwdna@gmail.com_ (mailto:mwwdna@gmail.com) > Description : R-L21+ Confirmed and Suspected Haplotypes including M222 and all subclades with latest downstream SNP results. 2011-05-24 version - M.Walsh You can access this file at the URL: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip) To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: _http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html_ (http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html) To join the R-L21 Yahoo group and get access to the files go to _http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/join _ (http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html) Regards, R-L21 Plus Project Co-Admin R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Jerry I'm not sure I fully understand your answer. I asked whether if A adopted B, whether A out-swore B. I was thinking of adopting you so that you'll stop arguing with me. From your answer though, it seems we would rank equally, so I guess I'll just have to learn how to out-reason you (grin). Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 25 May 2011 18:40 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: Gaelic secular marriage, adoption, enechlann ('face'-value = honor-price) Hi Sandy, Many thanks. Yes - there was no such thing as an illegitimate child under Fe/ineachas (Brehon Law). The only possible reduction of right occurred if the child had 1 slave parent and 1 free parent. In that case the child was free but couldn't become a king. According to all the ancient genealogies and stories, I descend from the adaltrach (concubine) Cairinn Casdub. She had Niall Naoighiallach by Eochu Mugmeado/n. Because Niall was the son of 2 free parents, he could be elected king. And he was. There was nothing wrong with being the son or daughter of a adaltrach. There was nothing wrong with being born outside a Church marriage. In Ireland, nearly everybody was until the beginning of the 17th century. I don't know Scottish social history as well, so don't know when the switch to Church-sancitified marriage occurred in the Gaelic areas. By chance, I also descend (according to all the ancient genealogies and stories) from Eochu Mugmeado/n's pri/omhmhuintir (primary wife) Mongfind. Mongfind had Fiachra (my ancestor), Brion, Ailill, and Fergus by Eochu. They had no greater rights than Niall. As you know, Niall's descendants provided most of the High-Kings of Ireland. Fiachra's descendants provided only 2 of the High-Kings of Ireland. Brion 0. Ailill 0. Fergus 0. Adopted children had the full honor price of their adopted parents under Fe/ineachas (Brehon Law). An adopted individual with a higher honor price could out-swear others with lower honor prices. If my honor price were 8 cumhal, I could outswear 2 others with 4 and 3 cumhal respectively. My 8 would beat their 7 whether or not I was adopted. Le gach dea-ghui/, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 2:28:45 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Hi Jerry I'll try and get it to you later today off-list. On-list though, a question. In a posting perhaps 6 weeks ago, you (at least I think it was you) spoke a little about Brehon law and children born out of wedlock. I gained the impression that there was no such thing as an illegitimate child under Brehon law. Is that correct? A more general question : What rights did children born outside formal marriages have? I'm curious, because my great grandfather was so born (albeit under British law). Also, out of interest, if person A adopted person B under Brehon law, would person A out-swear person B? Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 21:11 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. Would love to see that. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 3:02:25 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Jerry, Have you ever come across palimpsests used to convey extra information? I recently came across a birth record dated 1710 that could be an example. If you're interested, I can send you an image of it off-list. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 19:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. But you are right about the aos da/na enjoying puns and word-play. For example, we have Gaelic poems which have come down to us made up of series of homophones - words that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different meanings. If you listen to one of these poems one way, it means one thing. If you listen to it another way, the poem means something completely different all the way through. It depends upon the meaning you take for the first homophone in the poem. This was considered a very advanced art form and was used by the aos da/na to entertain each other. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 2:35:10 PM Subject: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names [But in the context of the underlying discussion (the new transcript of 1467), I'm beginning to wonder whether Domnail in line 27 wasn't perhaps Somerled himself. If so, it means we have to bin at least 6 names in the pedigree to end up with] That theory is blown. The scribe(s) Use Somairle for Somairle. No code, no hidden meanings, no nodanna. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 23 May 2011 12:27 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] heroic Gaelic names Thanks Jerry I assure you that did me no disservive at all. Quite the contrary, you did me a service by kick-starting my sometimes sluggish brain. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm going to pass along an email I received from one of the admins. of the L21 Project. The links given require a Yahoo ID and password to view them. So far I haven't been able to remember my old Yahoo password so I haven't been able to look at them yet myself. Dear John and David, Please invite the M222 project members to access this and comment on this this file which includes them. M222 is a key part of L21 and I've developed a spreadsheet based system to download L21+ haplotypes, including M222+, from multiple FTDNA projects. I maintain post the spreadsheet file at the web site and Yahoo Group listed below for all who are interested. I attempt to designate "speculative" clusters or deep ancestral varieties for everyone in the file. I need help on this so would appreciate any commentary from M222 folks. I also try to look up the Ysearch IDs and insert the correct MDKA info and categorize by geography (down to the county/department/shire level) so statisical analysis can be done easily by geography. Regards, Mike Walsh ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: <_RL21Project@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:RL21Project@yahoogroups.com) > Date: Tue, May 24, 2011 at 6:59 PM Subject: [RL21Project] New file uploaded to RL21Project This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the RL21Project group. File : /R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip Uploaded by : mikewww7 <_mwwdna@gmail.com_ (mailto:mwwdna@gmail.com) > Description : R-L21+ Confirmed and Suspected Haplotypes including M222 and all subclades with latest downstream SNP results. 2011-05-24 version - M.Walsh You can access this file at the URL: _http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip_ (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip) To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: _http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html_ (http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html) To join the R-L21 Yahoo group and get access to the files go to _http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/join _ (http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html) Regards, R-L21 Plus Project Co-Admin

In a message dated 5/25/2011 1:35:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jerrykelly@att.net writes: Hi Sandy, As John points out, falsifications did occur. But they were extremely serious. Under Fe/ineachas, a falsely reporting seanchadh (historian / genealogist) or breitheamh ('Brehon' / jurist) would lose his or her honor-price. I'd like to present an interesting (to me at least) case of two variant pedigrees for the High King of Ireland c. 1120. The person in question is Domhnall MacLochlainn, King of Aileach and High King of Ireland, d. 1121 AD. The MacLochlainns at this time were in the ascendancy within the northern Ui Neill and the O'Neills had yet to regain political power. The Book of Leinster (1160 AD) has a pedigree for this Domhnall MacLochlainn making him descend from Domhnall, the son of Aedh Finleith, who d. 915 AD. A slightly earlier compilation (Rawlinson B. 502, c. 1120 AD) has Domhnall MacLochlainn descend from Nial glundubh, also a son of Aedh Finleith. One family, two different pedigrees from supposedly impeccable sources. Though many have tried over the years there is no way to determine which pedigree is correct. Recent Irish scholarship has come down on the side of a descent from Domhnall, son of Aedh Finleith. And the assumption is that the MacLochlainns faked their pedigree to gain a more illustrious descent within the Cenel Eoghain. By switching the descent to Nial glundubh they gained two more High Kings of Ireland in their pedigree. In contrast the line of Domhnall was relatively undistinguished. Frankly, I doubt the MacLochlainns faked anything themselves. I think it was done for them by the scribes, propagandists for various political factions within Ireland at the time. And faked may be too strong a word. One of the scribes could simply have been mistaken. If you read through the annals of the period you will find exactly one Lochlan (d. 1023) who could be the eponymous founder of the family. And he is clearly descended from Domhnall, son of Aedh Finleith. But then there is a gap in the records and when the MacLochlainns suddenly appear in the record there is no documentary proof this is the right Lochlan. If the pedigree of the High King of Ireland can be in such disarray what does that portend for the lesser pedigrees of the minor kings and sub-chieftains of Ireland? John

[The name O'Cainus also makes little sense to me. Surnames weren't used prior to about 950 in Ireland. A man was described in terms of his father (mac) or grandfather (ua). You can see the development of fixed Irish] Sir James Lamont, in 1661, referred to an ancestor that is typed up as 'Orcanus' in the Lamont Papers. The Lamont Papers themselves are transcripts of handwritten documents. So firstly, the transcription may be incorrect. Secondly, it would have been quite possible, if Sir James knew that his ancestor was called Cain, to have described him (in 1661) as O'Cainus, notwithstanding the fact that surnames first started taking off around 950. It's just possible that the Inveryn Charters (from which the Lamont Papers drew the Orcanus story), may be in the the Inverchaolain Manse library. The secretary of the Clan Lamont Society out for the morning. I'll call this afternoon. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 24 May 2011 23:02 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Orcanus In a message dated 5/24/2011 6:51:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes:

Hi Sandy, As John points out, falsifications did occur. But they were extremely serious. Under Fe/ineachas, a falsely reporting seanchadh (historian / genealogist) or breitheamh ('Brehon' / jurist) would lose his or her honor-price. This was extremely serious. You could kill a person without an honor-price without having to pay the usual e/iric or 'wergild' (to use the German term) in compensation. So it appears that successful falsification must have happened at a very high level, by collusion, with protection. Additional examples, from an earlier period, of whole tribes changing their genealogies: Ui/ Bhriu/in Umhall - These may have originally been a branch of the Partraige. Fir Cheall - The large tribe from whom the O/ Da/laigh (O'Daly') and many other families descend. Despite their Ui/ Ne/ill In Deiscirt pedigree, Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh says that they were actually Fir Bolg. Eoghanachta - Their genealogy goes back to the Early Christian Period and suddenly gets attached to the "Gaeil", who themselves are a genealogical problem. Da/l gCais - Originally the De/is Bec ('Small Vassalry'), they succeeded in changing their name to Da/l gCais ('Share of Cas') and getting their genealogy attached to that of the Eoghanachta even before they replaced the Eoghanachta in the Kingship of Munster. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 5:54:46 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play In a message dated 5/24/2011 12:15:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: Sandy wrote: "So what you are saying is that pedigrees compiled by scribes were taken very seriously. But you seem to be saying more than that. You seem to be implying that the faking of a pedigree would have been considered a very serious crime indeed. I think that puts a very different light on the way we should consider the new transcript of manuscript 1467, or indeed any pedigree that would have been subject to Brehon law." John wrote: "I don't know about that. Faking pedigrees was almost a cottage industry in Ireland. I can name half a dozen off the top of my head - McMahon of Monaghan, O'Daly, O Cathain of Claire, McCabe, McCoughlan, McDonald of Scotland, the list goes on and on." John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You put me laughing just now, Sandy. That was a good one. Many thanks. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, May 25, 2011 1:54:36 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: Gaelic secular marriage, adoption, enechlann ('face'-value = honor-price) Thanks Jerry I'm not sure I fully understand your answer. I asked whether if A adopted B, whether A out-swore B. I was thinking of adopting you so that you'll stop arguing with me. From your answer though, it seems we would rank equally, so I guess I'll just have to learn how to out-reason you (grin). Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 25 May 2011 18:40 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: Gaelic secular marriage, adoption, enechlann ('face'-value = honor-price) Hi Sandy, Many thanks. Yes - there was no such thing as an illegitimate child under Fe/ineachas (Brehon Law). The only possible reduction of right occurred if the child had 1 slave parent and 1 free parent. In that case the child was free but couldn't become a king. According to all the ancient genealogies and stories, I descend from the adaltrach (concubine) Cairinn Casdub. She had Niall Naoighiallach by Eochu Mugmeado/n. Because Niall was the son of 2 free parents, he could be elected king. And he was. There was nothing wrong with being the son or daughter of a adaltrach. There was nothing wrong with being born outside a Church marriage. In Ireland, nearly everybody was until the beginning of the 17th century. I don't know Scottish social history as well, so don't know when the switch to Church-sancitified marriage occurred in the Gaelic areas. By chance, I also descend (according to all the ancient genealogies and stories) from Eochu Mugmeado/n's pri/omhmhuintir (primary wife) Mongfind. Mongfind had Fiachra (my ancestor), Brion, Ailill, and Fergus by Eochu. They had no greater rights than Niall. As you know, Niall's descendants provided most of the High-Kings of Ireland. Fiachra's descendants provided only 2 of the High-Kings of Ireland. Brion 0. Ailill 0. Fergus 0. Adopted children had the full honor price of their adopted parents under Fe/ineachas (Brehon Law). An adopted individual with a higher honor price could out-swear others with lower honor prices. If my honor price were 8 cumhal, I could outswear 2 others with 4 and 3 cumhal respectively. My 8 would beat their 7 whether or not I was adopted. Le gach dea-ghui/, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 2:28:45 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Hi Jerry I'll try and get it to you later today off-list. On-list though, a question. In a posting perhaps 6 weeks ago, you (at least I think it was you) spoke a little about Brehon law and children born out of wedlock. I gained the impression that there was no such thing as an illegitimate child under Brehon law. Is that correct? A more general question : What rights did children born outside formal marriages have? I'm curious, because my great grandfather was so born (albeit under British law). Also, out of interest, if person A adopted person B under Brehon law, would person A out-swear person B? Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 21:11 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. Would love to see that. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 3:02:25 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Jerry, Have you ever come across palimpsests used to convey extra information? I recently came across a birth record dated 1710 that could be an example. If you're interested, I can send you an image of it off-list. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 23 May 2011 19:48 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names / word-play Many thanks, Sandy. But you are right about the aos da/na enjoying puns and word-play. For example, we have Gaelic poems which have come down to us made up of series of homophones - words that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different meanings. If you listen to one of these poems one way, it means one thing. If you listen to it another way, the poem means something completely different all the way through. It depends upon the meaning you take for the first homophone in the poem. This was considered a very advanced art form and was used by the aos da/na to entertain each other. Best, Jerry ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, May 23, 2011 2:35:10 PM Subject: [R-M222] FW: heroic Gaelic names [But in the context of the underlying discussion (the new transcript of 1467), I'm beginning to wonder whether Domnail in line 27 wasn't perhaps Somerled himself. If so, it means we have to bin at least 6 names in the pedigree to end up with] That theory is blown. The scribe(s) Use Somairle for Somairle. No code, no hidden meanings, no nodanna. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: 23 May 2011 12:27 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] heroic Gaelic names Thanks Jerry I assure you that did me no disservive at all. Quite the contrary, you did me a service by kick-starting my sometimes sluggish brain. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message