Bill, One more question. May I ask where you plan to publish this data (if you are allowed to tell me)? Thanks, Allene

Thanks, Bill. I have forgotten what the RCC stands for. I know it was mentioned earlier. Also, is the reason the Milligans and the Griersons aren't on this chart because they didn't test enough M222 people to make a cluster? Those are the ones closest to my lines, especially Milligan. Thanks, Allene On 5/30/2011 6:21 PM, Bill Howard wrote: > Hi, Allene, > Answers are in your paragraph, below. > > On May 30, 2011, at 9:03 PM, Allene Goforth wrote: > >> Working across at M[a]cAdam (only one of the five uses "McAdam"): What >> is the 5/5/ for? > Five out of five are in a cluster. > >> When the horizontal McAdam intersects with the vertical >> McAdam, what is the 7.7 for? > That's the RCC of the TMRCA of the McAdams > >> Is 1540 AD the date of the common ancestor >> for all five lines of MacAdam? > It is the RCC for the cluster, so in this case, Yes. > >> That would make sense. I was guessing it >> was in the 1600s or a bit earlier. What is the 15.15 and 28 at the end? > Above the diagonal are the RCC values for the TMRCAs of the common ancestor of the surnames of the intercluster. That is, 15.5 is the RCC of the MRCA of the McCords and the McAdams. That corresponds roughly to 1130 AD (the intersection below the diagonal. 28 is the RCC of the MRCA of the McGonigles and the McAdams, and is roughly 470 AD. > > Hope this helps you (and others) to interpret how to read the junctions on the tree. > - Bye from Bill Howard > >> Thanks, >> Allene >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Working across at M[a]cAdam (only one of the five uses "McAdam"): What is the 5/5/ for? When the horizontal McAdam intersects with the vertical McAdam, what is the 7.7 for? Is 1540 AD the date of the common ancestor for all five lines of MacAdam? That would make sense. I was guessing it was in the 1600s or a bit earlier. What is the 15.15 and 28 at the end? Thanks, Allene

I just received a reply from the authors of the new transcription of MS. 1467. "What we're saying is that from the other available evidence, it's probably saying Neill Glunduibh, but it's illegible for the most part. The "gorm" was a best guess (a very common epithet) because we couldn't see anything after the 'g' (nobody can), as shown by the fact that we put it in red. The "glun" would be an expansion of a contraction anyway, as in Ballymote. But now that you have pointed out the likelihood of it being "glunduibh", we agree that this is certainly the most the most likely reading. We are grateful to you for pointing this out. So it would read "mhic Neill glunduibh" but there is another wee bit after the "glunduibh", which does look like "ite". This would give you Niall Glundubh of Iona. Of course it may not be "ite" but it does look very like that. This part of the manuscript is very unclear and worn. Many thanks for you input. If you come up with any other information we would be delighted to hear it. Kindest regards Ronnie and Máire Black" If anyone is looking for absolute certainty in the new transcription you won't find it. "Probably" is about as close as anyone can come. And "probably" in the opinion of the authors now points to Neill glundubh as the last name in the Lamont pedigree. I was not instrumental in shaping their decision. Someone else (I don't know who) pointed out the last name was probably Nial glundubh. My only contribution was sending them a copy of the MacSweeney pedigree in the Books of Ballymote and Lecan for reference. John

n a message dated 5/30/2011 3:45:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: Great post, but I'm having difficulty working out where Bill's comments end and yours start. Can you clarify? Bill's comments came from this paragraph. "The testees in each of these nine surname clusters have a MRCA who lived at approximately the time given in the table. In Figure 1, going upward from the bottom right toward the top, the Cowan surname cluster members had an earliest progenitor at RCC ~ 13 (1250-1300 AD) who shared the progenitor of the McCord and McAdam surname cluster members at RCC ~19 (about 940 AD). That progenitor who lived at RCC ~ 19 shared a progenitor at RCC~ 26 (575 AD) with the progenitor of the Howle and Davidson cluster at RCC ~ 18.5 (970 AD). The progenitor at RCC ~26 shared a progenitor of the Dunbar-Doherty-McGonigal group at RCC ~28 (470 AD) and finally, we reach the Ewing progenitor who was common to, and shared by them all at RCC ~ 38.5 (85 BC). The descendants of this Ewing progenitor formed different lines of descent because of mutations and those lines eventually became surnames in about 900-1100 AD, one of which was Ewing." I followed his logic in two different charts I promised earlier not to post to the list. It's actually easier to visualize what he's saying if you look at the charts. John

Great post, but I'm having difficulty working out where Bill's comments end and yours start. Can you clarify? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 29 May 2011 02:00 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went R222? In a message dated 5/27/2011 9:21:13 A.M. Central Daylight Time, davidewing93@gmail.com writes: I am not sure what Bill's latest iteration of an estimate for years/RCC is, but I think it is on the order of 50, give or take 10.

I found this http://munros-in-the-key-of-george.blogspot.com/2009_04_01_archive.html Mullach Coire Mhic Fhearchair pronounced Moolach corrie veechk erachar translated as Summit of the corrie of Farquhar's son. It lies near Lochgoilhead, which used to be Lamont territory. The son could have been Malcolm, of course, but it looks more like Fearchar, son of Fearchar to me. I find it quite fascinating that 12th century history is preserved in the Gaelic name for a mountain. Laumon was born by 1235 and dead by 1295, so the mountain is named after someone who lived at least one generation before Laumon. Sandy

My finger locks up and hard to get moving again, is that what you mean? -----Original Message----- From: GAshley923 <GAshley923@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7 <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Fri, May 27, 2011 11:00 am Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 138 n a message dated 5/27/2011 3:32:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, na-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com writes: . Re: Icelandic M222 (Paul Conroy) . Re: Which Way Went R222? (Lawrence Dill) . Re: M222 File (Lochlan@aol.com) . YSearch (J David Grierson) . Re: Icelandic M222 (Sandy Paterson) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 hanks for posting that Interesting story about the Vikings possibly being ur ancestors .Does anyone else besides me have a inherited condition alled the "Viking disease ? My brother sister myself have what doctors call _Dupuytren's contracture _ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupuytren's_contracture) " People of Scandinavian_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia) or _Northern European_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe) ncestry inherit it . radition has it that the disease originated with the Vikings, who spread t throughout ..... _www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1305903/_ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1305903/) - _Similar_ http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=Dupuytre 's contracture viking isease&q=related:www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1305903/+Dupuytren's ontracture viking disease) y ring finger hangs up at a 30 degree angle when I extend my fingers . ene Dupuytren's contracture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupuytren's_contracture) R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

I think McGonigals are Mac Congailes, Niall descendants. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 29 May 2011 02:00 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went R222?

In a message dated 5/27/2011 9:21:13 A.M. Central Daylight Time, davidewing93@gmail.com writes: I am not sure what Bill's latest iteration of an estimate for years/RCC is, but I think it is on the order of 50, give or take 10. This suggests that these Ewings diverged from most of the rest of R:M222 on the order of 1500 years ago but the very most distant R:M222 haplotypes diverged more like 2500 years ago. These numbers are wildly approximate, and even so, I am not sure I believe the approach to calculating them, but I thought it might be helpful to offer them as a concrete target for criticism and comment. I have a copy of a chart Bill did recently as part of a draft paper on M222. In it he compares 9 surnames from the M222 project, Ewing, Doherty, McMonigal, Dunbar, McCord, McAdam, Cowan, Howle, Davidson. He describes the results as follows: The testees in each of these nine surname clusters have a MRCA who lived at approximately the time given in the table. In Figure 1, going upward from the bottom right toward the top, the Cowan surname cluster members had an earliest progenitor at RCC ~ 13 (1250-1300 AD) who shared the progenitor of the McCord and McAdam surname cluster members at RCC ~19 (about 940 AD). That progenitor who lived at RCC ~ 19 shared a progenitor at RCC~ 26 (575 AD) with the progenitor of the Howle and Davidson cluster at RCC ~ 18.5 (970 AD). The progenitor at RCC ~26 shared a progenitor of the Dunbar-Doherty-McGonigal group at RCC ~28 (470 AD) and finally, we reach the Ewing progenitor who was common to, and shared by them all at RCC ~ 38.5 (85 BC). The descendants of this Ewing progenitor formed different lines of descent because of mutations and those lines eventually became surnames in about 900-1100 AD, one of which was Ewing. What this shows is a common ancestor for the above 9 M222 surnames at 38 RCC or about 85 BC. The next common ancestor in the group occurs at 28 RCC or about 470 AD. This includes all other surnames named above. Among those with a common ancestor at 470 AD. are the Dohertys, McMonigals and Dunbars in one cluster. And Davidsons, Howles, McCords, McAdams and Cowans in another cluster with a another common ancestor slightly later, at 576 AD.. The Doherty-McMonigal cluster seems fairly accurate. Both are probably descendants of Nial (c. 450 AD) although we do not know for sure about the McMonigals. It is a common Donegal surname though. The inclusion of the M222 Dunbars in this cluster is confusing. The M222 Dunbars form a small percentage of the overall Dunbars tested. If nothing else this data would seem to imply the Ewings descend in a lone cluster from a common ancestor of all in about 85 BC. which would obviously make them pre-Nial. The picture is not so clear for the last two clusters composed of Cowans, Davidsons, Howles, McCords and McAdams. In the chart they too share a common ancestor with the known Nial descendants at about 470 AD. but have their own common ancestor slightly later, about 575 AD. Most of these surnames are Scottish with the exception of Howle, which is English. Or at least what is known of the samples is their common ancestor came to America from England. Some internet sources say the name could be Welsh (Howell). What is known of Irish history won't help much in this case mainly because nothing is known with certainty prior to the time of Nial. He certainly had ancestors in Ireland for at least some generations because the Connachta, said to descend from his half-brothers, are also M222. The Irish annals do not become truly historical until well after the time of Nial (perhaps 700-800 AD?). So if some kind of migration to Scotland occurred in the centuries immediately after his death we would never know it from Irish sources. Or Scottish sources which are virtually nonexistent. Bill's larger charts of M222 also paint a confusing picture of the Ewings and possible cluster members in Scotland. Clustered closely with the Ewings in one chart I've seen are the following samples: Doherty McLaughlin (2) Ferguson Guinn The two McLaughlin samples are part of our Donegal McLaughlin cluster. Both match 2 of 3 modal markers which define the cluster. One would expect them to be clustered with the Dohertys et al in this charts but they are not. It's possible they are not valid members of the McLaughlin of Donegal cluster. It's also possible the software simply misplaced them in the charts since both are outlyers in the McLaughlin cluster. I imagine the same type of scenario applies to the Doherty sample. As David mentioned, the larger chart does contain common ancestor junction points earlier than that of the Ewings. The earliest one appears to be about 68 Rcc or about ;1000 BC. The names in this portion of the chart are a jumble of Scottish and Irish surnames, many of which appear in solid clusters elsewhere in the chart. I am inclined to think these are more outlyers thrown out to the fringes of the chart. I do not think the fact that the Ewings are obviously pre-Nial means M222 originated in Scotland. They could have originated in Ireland and moved to Scotland at any time prior to 450 AD or even later. Nor do I think the fact that the Cowans, McCords, Davidsons et al appear to share a close ancestor at about the time of Nial means they were descendants of Nial. In fact I can't draw much of a conclusion from any of this material. It does tend to show earlier MRCA estimates for the cluster than most methods including ASD. which typically come in around 400 AD. or a century or two earlier. As everyone on this list knows it is now dogma that M222 originated in Ireland. That has been the case since the earliest days of M222 (McEwan, Nordtvedt). It was recently restated in the Moffat-Wilson book discussed recently on this list. I'll repost a few of their comments here: Wilson: This I think is a mark of a movement from Ireland to Scotland at some point in the past, rather long ago, because these are not men with Irish surnames. They have ordinary Scottish surnames that have been in Scotland for hundreds of years. Moffat: In other words were the Gaels either immigrants or were they a native people who spoke Gaelic anyway? Wilson: Well I think that the Gaels of Dal Riata originated in Ireland. And this is because we've discovered and characterized a marker, a DNA marker, so a piece of DNA that varies between individuals which we call M222. This is an incredible marker actually because about 20% of all Irish men carry this Y-chromsome marker. And when we look up into the north to Ulster it's over 40% - so it's extremely common and it shows all these people descend from one man at some point in the past. In this case we think know who the progenitor is. Moffat: Because Nial of the Nine hostages is a figure of some historical substance around 400,500 AD. that means people with his marker in Scotland have moved from Ireland and that's there's been a substantial migration. Wilson: I think that is the case. Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data we will see that and the case will be closed. In spite of that I can't quite shake off the remarks of O'Rahilly that the Ui Neill (ie, M222) were late comers to Ireland, arriving between 300 and 30 BC. Much of his theory seemed to be based on the evidence of Ptolemy's map of Ireland in which he could find no trace of a tribal name similar to Dal Cuinn, the original tribal designation from which the Ui Neill sprang. I can't find one either. Can anyone? And his statement that they should be in evidence in Ptolemy's map cannot be lightly disregarded. O'Rahilly believed that the Dal Cuinn came to Ireland from Gaul (not from England). But much of his theory is tangled up in linguistics, P vs. Q-Celt, and that part is not accepted by most linguists. I think he assumed all of Britain was P-Celtic speaking and therefore the Dal Cuinn (Q-Celts) could not have come from Britain. He seems to have thought Scotland at the time was also P-Celtic and therefore looked to the backwaters of Celtic Gaul for possible origin locations, where Q-Celtic was known to have survived in a number of tribal designations. Yet there is at least one archeologist out there (Campbell, "Were the Scots Irish") who believes a Q-Celtic backwater could be found much closer to home, in western Scotland. That theory too is hotly debated as are most theories. I found one statement of Wilson's highly interesting: "Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data we will see that and the case will be closed." I'm patiently waiting for closure. John

Surnames did not exist when the Irish raided Lowland Scotland. Perhaps some of the descendants of the Irish raiders took English surnames when surnames became common.

Thanks, Allene. Nice to know I'm not alone! David On 28/05/2011 4:08 AM, Allene Goforth wrote: > David, > > Not sure if anyone answered your first three questions. I've got so much > mail right now that I may have missed some comments. The sequence of > markers in Ysearch has differed from FTDNA's all along. It drives me crazy. > You are right, it won't take all 111 markers yet. Hopefully, they'll fix > that soon. Re accepting updates, it appeared to reject my attempt to > load a GEDCOM at the Macpherson project this morning. I got a 404 error > message, so I did it again and got another 404 error message, so I went > directly to Ysearch outside FTDNA and manually added the markers. That > worked, but when I checked my e-mail I found that the other two had also > worked despite the error messages, so I ended up with three records for > the same person and had to delete two of them. It's a pain! I'm not sure > if that was my server problem or theirs, but the situation with Ysearch > leaves something to be desired. > > Allene > > On 5/27/2011 1:33 AM, J David Grierson wrote: >> My final question has been answered off list. See: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-04/1175896408 >> >> David >> >>

Uh-oh, I meant I was uploading to Ysearch, not doing a GEDCOM. Sometimes I post too early in the morning. On 5/27/2011 6:12 PM, J David Grierson wrote: > Thanks, Allene. Nice to know I'm not alone! > David > > On 28/05/2011 4:08 AM, Allene Goforth wrote: >> David, >> >> Not sure if anyone answered your first three questions. I've got so much >> mail right now that I may have missed some comments. The sequence of >> markers in Ysearch has differed from FTDNA's all along. It drives me crazy. >> You are right, it won't take all 111 markers yet. Hopefully, they'll fix >> that soon. Re accepting updates, it appeared to reject my attempt to >> load a GEDCOM at the Macpherson project this morning. I got a 404 error >> message, so I did it again and got another 404 error message, so I went >> directly to Ysearch outside FTDNA and manually added the markers. That >> worked, but when I checked my e-mail I found that the other two had also >> worked despite the error messages, so I ended up with three records for >> the same person and had to delete two of them. It's a pain! I'm not sure >> if that was my server problem or theirs, but the situation with Ysearch >> leaves something to be desired. >> >> Allene >> >> On 5/27/2011 1:33 AM, J David Grierson wrote: >>> My final question has been answered off list. See: >>> http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-04/1175896408 >>> >>> David >>> >>> > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My final question has been answered off list. See: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-04/1175896408 David On 27/05/2011 1:19 PM, J David Grierson wrote: > Is anybody else finding that YSearch is getting clunkier? > > It generates lists in a different order from FTDNA > It doesn't accommodate all the 111 markers. > It doesn't seem to be accepting updates. > > A further question: I have two records of M222 results at DYS463=22 by > Ancestry. One of them has just come back as 24 by FT. YSearch shows no > requirement for conversion in this case. Has anybody else noticed this? > > David Grierson

David I noticed this morning that there's a Dougherty on The Ulster Heritage site with DYS495=17 (marker number 71). I also noticed that he shares DYS576=18 with Ewing. He's the only Dougherty 111-marker reported so far. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of David Ewing Sent: 27 May 2011 15:13 To: DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went R222? Lawrence Dill writes:

Is anybody else finding that YSearch is getting clunkier? It generates lists in a different order from FTDNA It doesn't accommodate all the 111 markers. It doesn't seem to be accepting updates. A further question: I have two records of M222 results at DYS463=22 by Ancestry. One of them has just come back as 24 by FT. YSearch shows no requirement for conversion in this case. Has anybody else noticed this? David Grierson

In a message dated 5/27/2011 3:32:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com writes: 1. Re: Icelandic M222 (Paul Conroy) 2. Re: Which Way Went R222? (Lawrence Dill) 3. Re: M222 File (Lochlan@aol.com) 4. YSearch (J David Grierson) 5. Re: Icelandic M222 (Sandy Paterson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Thanks for posting that Interesting story about the Vikings possibly being our ancestors .Does anyone else besides me have a inherited condition called the "Viking disease ? My brother sister myself have what doctors call " _Dupuytren's contracture _ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupuytren's_contracture) " People of _Scandinavian_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia) or _Northern European_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe) ancestry inherit it . Tradition has it that the disease originated with the Vikings, who spread it throughout ..... _www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1305903/_ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1305903/) - _Similar_ (http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=similarPages.search&v_t=client_searchbox&o_q=Dupuytre n's contracture viking disease&q=related:www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1305903/+Dupuytren's contracture viking disease) My ring finger hangs up at a 30 degree angle when I extend my fingers . Gene _Dupuytren's contracture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupuytren's_contracture)

David, Not sure if anyone answered your first three questions. I've got so much mail right now that I may have missed some comments. The sequence of markers in Ysearch has differed from FTDNA's all along. It drives me crazy. You are right, it won't take all 111 markers yet. Hopefully, they'll fix that soon. Re accepting updates, it appeared to reject my attempt to load a GEDCOM at the Macpherson project this morning. I got a 404 error message, so I did it again and got another 404 error message, so I went directly to Ysearch outside FTDNA and manually added the markers. That worked, but when I checked my e-mail I found that the other two had also worked despite the error messages, so I ended up with three records for the same person and had to delete two of them. It's a pain! I'm not sure if that was my server problem or theirs, but the situation with Ysearch leaves something to be desired. Allene On 5/27/2011 1:33 AM, J David Grierson wrote: > My final question has been answered off list. See: > http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2007-04/1175896408 > > David > >

So is there any record in Ireland of a chieftain named McCartan around 900-950 AD? David -- Dr. David H. MacLennan, Banting and Best Department of Medical Research, University of Toronto, Charles H. Best Institute, 112 College St., Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G1L6 Tel:1-416-978-5008 Fax:1-416-978-8528 http://www.utoronto.ca/maclennan > From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> > Reply-To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 06:41:39 +0100 > To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Icelandic M222 > > Paul/Jerry > >> > I wonder if: > Myrkjartan = McCartan >> > > > I have no idea why, but I think you're spot on. > > > Can you help me with something? > > If Mac Giolla Eain = McLean > > could > > MacErachar/MacFerchar = McHarg/McHargue > > > If so, that could explain why my Y-STR is so close to McHarg. > > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy > Sent: 26 May 2011 18:00 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Icelandic M222 > > David, > > Very Interesting. > > I wonder if: > Myrkjartan = McCartan > > On 23AndMe I have an Icelandic relative! > > Cheers, > Paul > > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 12:17 PM, David H. MacLennan < > david.maclennan@utoronto.ca> wrote: > >> >> I realize that this forum is about Scots M222 DNA and that is of great >> interest to me also. However, I think that everyone would also like to > find >> a genealogy going back to 900 AD or so that would actually link up with > the >> Ui Niall. Perhaps the one place in Europe where fairly accurate > genealogies >> were maintained since that period was in Iceland. My mother was Icelandic >> and I have her family tree going back to the settlement times in the late >> 800s. >> You are certainly all aware that the Vikings who settled Iceland (and >> Ireland) had no qualms about bringing Irish slaves back to Iceland and >> their >> intermingling with the Irish may well have led to Irishmen joining the >> Vikings in their escapades willingly. One of the most famous was Melkorka, >> an Irish Princess, who was brought as a concubine to Iceland by a powerful >> and wealthy Viking named Hoskuldur. She was so pissed off by her captors >> and >> her captivity that she refused to speak and was believed to be mute. One >> day >> she was heard singing in the meadow to her children and the truth was out! >> She then told them of her heritage and produced a gold token of her >> lineage. >> Her son "Olaf the Peacock", was the handsomest man in Iceland and, >> obviously, a member of a powerful line. As a Viking, he made his way back >> to >> Ireland and met his grandfather, Myrkjartan. Ólaf was accepted by >> Myrkjartan, who even offered to make him his heir. However, Ólaf returned >> to >> Iceland. This history is in the Laxdaela Saga of Snorri Sturlasson, > written >> in the 1200s. >> The point I wish to make is that Icelandic carriers of the M222 >> haplotype might have a lineage that could be traced accurately back to the >> settlement of Iceland before 900 AD. The question would then be whether a >> connection could be made back to an Irish family, as was done in the case >> of >> Melkorka. Has anyone made a serious investigation of Icelandic M222 >> individuals and their genalogy? >> Incidentally, I can trace my own lineage back to Melkorka and might > even >> carry a few percent of her autosomal DNA. >> David >> >> -- >> Dr. David H. MacLennan, >> Banting and Best Department of Medical Research, >> University of Toronto, Charles H. Best Institute, >> 112 College St., Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G1L6 >> Tel:1-416-978-5008 Fax:1-416-978-8528 >> http://www.utoronto.ca/maclennan >> >> >>> From: <Lochlan@aol.com> >>> Reply-To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> >>> Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:51:11 EDT >>> To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> >>> Subject: [R-M222] M222 Files >>> >>> I'm going to pass along an email I received from one of the admins. of >> the >>> L21 Project. The links given require a Yahoo ID and password to view >>> them. So far I haven't been able to remember my old Yahoo password so I >>> haven't been able to look at them yet myself. >>> >>> Dear John and David, >>> >>> Please invite the M222 project members to access this and comment on >> this >>> this file which includes them. >>> >>> M222 is a key part of L21 and I've developed a spreadsheet based system >> to >>> download L21+ haplotypes, including M222+, from multiple FTDNA > projects. >> I >>> maintain post the spreadsheet file at the web site and Yahoo Group >> listed >>> below for all who are interested. >>> >>> I attempt to designate "speculative" clusters or deep ancestral >> varieties >>> for everyone in the file. I need help on this so would appreciate any >>> commentary from M222 folks. I also try to look up the Ysearch IDs and >> insert >>> the >>> correct MDKA info and categorize by geography (down to the >>> county/department/shire level) so statisical analysis can be done easily >> by >>> geography. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Mike Walsh >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: >>> <_RL21Project@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:RL21Project@yahoogroups.com) > >>> Date: Tue, May 24, 2011 at 6:59 PM >>> Subject: [RL21Project] New file uploaded to RL21Project >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has > been >>> uploaded to the Files area of the RL21Project >>> group. >>> >>> File : /R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip >>> Uploaded by : mikewww7 <_mwwdna@gmail.com_ (mailto:mwwdna@gmail.com) > >>> Description : R-L21+ Confirmed and Suspected Haplotypes including M222 >> and >>> all subclades with latest downstream SNP results. 2011-05-24 version - >>> M.Walsh >>> >>> You can access this file at the URL: >>> _ >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip_ >>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip >> ) >>> >>> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: >>> _ >> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html_ >>> (http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html >> ) >>> To join the R-L21 Yahoo group and get access to the files go to >>> _http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/join >>> _ ( >> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html) >>> Regards, >>> R-L21 Plus Project Co-Admin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >>> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Lawrence Dill writes: I also wonder where R-M222 originated. Do the Ewing have the oldest know haplotypes in our haplogroup? The Ewing are from Scotland. It is obvious that R-M222 first proliferated in Ireland. I don't know how one could compute relative ages of haplotypes. To understand Lawrence's question, I have to translate it into something like, "Do the Ewing's appear to have diverged from the rest of R:M222+ longer ago than any other known family group?" I would like to know the answer to that question myself. The phylogeny Bill Howard calculated, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/431003/M222Phylogeny.RCC.pdf shows Ewings diverging from all other R:M222 in his chart at RCC = about 31, or if you lump with the Ewings their closest relatives on that chart (one Guinn, one Ferguson, a couple of McLaughlins and one Daugherty), at RCC = about 36. That is pretty far back, but the deepest nodes in this phylogeny look to be closer to RCC = 50. I am not sure what Bill's latest iteration of an estimate for years/RCC is, but I think it is on the order of 50, give or take 10. This suggests that these Ewings diverged from most of the rest of R:M222 on the order of 1500 years ago but the very most distant R:M222 haplotypes diverged more like 2500 years ago. These numbers are wildly approximate, and even so, I am not sure I believe the approach to calculating them, but I thought it might be helpful to offer them as a concrete target for criticism and comment. One historical context that would be consistent with Ewing diverging from the rest of R:M222 in this time frame is that there was apparently a lot of raiding by Irish--maybe even by Niall himself--into the western Lowlands in the few hundred years between the time the Romans left Britain and the Anglo-Saxons got a good foothold. The name Ewing, spelled as such, didn't appear until the 16th century, but this was in Lennox, around the lower end of Loch Lomond, and it is entirely possible that the ancestors of the Ewings had been there for over a thousand years before that. It is commonly thought that the Ewings came to Lennox in 1500 or so from the Cowal peninsula in Argyle, survivors of the broken Clan Ewen of Otter, but I have lately come to wonder whether the folks establishing Clan Ewen of Otter a couple of hundred years before that may not have come from Strathclyde rather than from Ireland as partisans of the Anradan kindred believe. David Ewing