Thanks so much for posting this link. If the article was mentioned before, I missed it. On the map showing "La Tene chariot burials" the northernmost marker indicates a burial just west of Edinburgh. Not too far east of that is the home of the Subgroup E Duncans who have haplotypes that differ significantly from the other R-M222 Duncans (Subgroup B). The most marked difference is at DYS 481 where the E Duncans who have 67 markers consistently have a value of 22, while the B Duncans have 26: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ClanDonnachaidh/default.aspx?section=yresults Could one of these groups be part of a pre-Niall population? I remember reading in a very old post from this list that one Duncan line was said to descend from a particular brother of Niall. Also, have there been studies that show there is a higher percentage of R-M222 in that NE area of England where so many chariot burials are indicated? Sharon On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 1:00 AM, yair davidiy <britam@netvision.net.il>wrote: > This may have been mentioned before. > The extract below suggests that R-M222 arrived in Europe with La Tene > Culture. > This I guess would fit in with the oft quoted > opinion of O'Rahilly that they were Belgae from Gaul. > See the quotes below and after that a perhaps related query. > > ## Celtic tribes of the British Isles > http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribes.shtml#surnames > > ## La Tene Culture > > ## The Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-M222 is found in > Northern Ireland, Lowland Scotland and Northern > England and may reflect the arrival of La Tene in > Ireland (see Surnames and Y-DNA). The swirling La > Tène style continued to develop in Ireland after > the Continental heartlands of La Tene and most of > Britain were absorbed into the Roman sphere. As > Ireland emerged from its centuries-long, > climate-induced depression and embraced > Christianity, the La Tene style blossomed in such > masterpieces as the Book of Kells. .... > > ## Surnames and Y-DNA > ## Both Y-DNA and surnames are handed down from > father to son, so could links be found? Early > attempts at this approach were perhaps over-hasty > in their conclusions. The Y-DNA haplogroup > R1b-M222 was initially thought to mark the > descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages. It is > carried by nearly 20% of the men in Donegal > today. In early historic times this was the > territory of the northern U' Néill, presumed > descendants of the fabled 5th-century warlord. > R1b-M222 is particularly common among those with > some U' Néill surnames, such as O'Doherty, though > not most of the O'Neills themselves. It also > appears among the Connachta, supposed descendants > of the brothers of Niall. However its > concentration among Lowland Scots (rather than in > Gaelic Argyll) and northern English suggests that > it is centuries older than Niall. > 26L.T. Moore, B. McEvoy et al., A Y-Chromosome > Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland, The > American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 78, no. > 2 (1 February 2006), pp. 334-338; N.M Myres et al., > A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era > founder effect in Central and Western Europe, > European Journal of HumanGenetics, (advance > online publication 25 August 2010); E.B. O’Neill > and J.D. McLaughlin, Insights into the O’Neills > of Ireland from DNA testing, Journal of Genetic > Genealogy, vol. 2, no.2 (Fall, 2006), pp. 18-26; > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/; J.D. > McLaughlin, Ui Neill DNA http://clanmaclochlainn.com/dna.htm. > > ## So it is more likely to be a La Tene marker, > present among the people of north-western Ireland > long before the Uu Néill established their > dominance there, unrelated to the Uu Néill elite. > > > On a perhaps related track where did La Tene come from? > In the URL below is a listing of all ancient European YDNA heretofore. > > R1b is almost non-existant! > > There is an instance (2 samples?) from the > Lichtenstein Cave in Germany from ca. 1000 BCE. > > Apart from that there plenty of G2as and I2a, > some R1a (in Germany, Russia, and China) but no R1b! > > We then get 19 samples from the Basque area of Spain dated 500-700 CE. > > Then another 4 (?) "Merovingian" (?) sample from Ergolding, Germany 670 CE. > > Ancient Western Eurasian DNA > http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

This may have been mentioned before. The extract below suggests that R-M222 arrived in Europe with La Tene Culture. This I guess would fit in with the oft quoted opinion of O'Rahilly that they were Belgae from Gaul. See the quotes below and after that a perhaps related query. ## Celtic tribes of the British Isles http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribes.shtml#surnames ## La Tene Culture ## The Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-M222 is found in Northern Ireland, Lowland Scotland and Northern England and may reflect the arrival of La Tene in Ireland (see Surnames and Y-DNA). The swirling La Tène style continued to develop in Ireland after the Continental heartlands of La Tene and most of Britain were absorbed into the Roman sphere. As Ireland emerged from its centuries-long, climate-induced depression and embraced Christianity, the La Tene style blossomed in such masterpieces as the Book of Kells. .... ## Surnames and Y-DNA ## Both Y-DNA and surnames are handed down from father to son, so could links be found? Early attempts at this approach were perhaps over-hasty in their conclusions. The Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-M222 was initially thought to mark the descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages. It is carried by nearly 20% of the men in Donegal today. In early historic times this was the territory of the northern U' Néill, presumed descendants of the fabled 5th-century warlord. R1b-M222 is particularly common among those with some U' Néill surnames, such as O'Doherty, though not most of the O'Neills themselves. It also appears among the Connachta, supposed descendants of the brothers of Niall. However its concentration among Lowland Scots (rather than in Gaelic Argyll) and northern English suggests that it is centuries older than Niall. 26L.T. Moore, B. McEvoy et al., A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland, The American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 78, no. 2 (1 February 2006), pp. 334-338; N.M Myres et al., A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe, European Journal of HumanGenetics, (advance online publication 25 August 2010); E.B. O’Neill and J.D. McLaughlin, Insights into the O’Neills of Ireland from DNA testing, Journal of Genetic Genealogy, vol. 2, no.2 (Fall, 2006), pp. 18-26; http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c7/; J.D. McLaughlin, Ui Neill DNA http://clanmaclochlainn.com/dna.htm. ## So it is more likely to be a La Tene marker, present among the people of north-western Ireland long before the Uu Néill established their dominance there, unrelated to the Uu Néill elite. On a perhaps related track where did La Tene come from? In the URL below is a listing of all ancient European YDNA heretofore. R1b is almost non-existant! There is an instance (2 samples?) from the Lichtenstein Cave in Germany from ca. 1000 BCE. Apart from that there plenty of G2as and I2a, some R1a (in Germany, Russia, and China) but no R1b! We then get 19 samples from the Basque area of Spain dated 500-700 CE. Then another 4 (?) "Merovingian" (?) sample from Ergolding, Germany 670 CE. Ancient Western Eurasian DNA http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml

At 01:01 AM 5/29/2011, you wrote: >Surnames did not exist when the Irish raided Lowland Scotland. >Perhaps some of the descendants of the Irish raiders took English >surnames when surnames became common. > R1b1c7 Research and Links: OK. But a lot of raiders are needed along with some settlers to make the imprint in Lowland Scotland that exists. It also presupposes an event within a relatively recent historical compass. Are there known candidates for the needed phenomenon?

Hi Lawrence, John's right. As far as we can tell, contemporary events start getting recorded in writing in the 8th century. Oral history (legend) also begins to be backfilled for earlier periods. In other words, people in the 8th century start writing down what they heard happened in previous centuries. Some of this backfilling looks pretty accurate. For example, the Battle of Rath does seem to have occurred about 637 A.D. But some of the history doesn't seem plausible by today's standards. For example, one of the causes of the battle is said to have been a miracle which Congal Cáech, King of the Dál nAraide, perceived as an insult. A goose's egg on a golden plate offered to Congal was changed into a hen's egg on a wooden plate due to a saint's curse. Everybody else got gold and goose. Congal threw a fit and declared war. Hope that's helpful. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 8:29 PM To: lawrencedill@ymail.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went M222? In a message dated 6/8/2011 4:44:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lawrencedill@ymail.com writes: I want to post this message because there has been a question about an earlier post that I made on this thread. I learned about Keating's History from this mailing-list a few months ago. I understood the passage from Keating's History as saying that during the time of Niall of the Nine Hostages, the Ui Neill had raided and settled in what is now known as SW Scotland. I learned from a more recent post that it can not really be known for sure what happened during the time of Niall because the Irish did not start recording history until possibly 700 AD. I tried to track down that reference to Nial and the settlement of chieftains in Scotland but didn't get far with it. Keating was quoting a line from a Life of St. Patrick. But I couldn't find a discussion of which Life of Patrick was being referenced. There are lots of them. O'Rahilly does not mention that specific statement about a settlement in Scotland but does mention a "late Latin life of Patrick" which is probably the same source. The "late" bit worried me a little. It's an interesting statement but without knowing the source I cannot begin to judge it's possible validity. As to when the Irish annals truly become historical I found this: The Irish Annals; Their Genesis, Evolution and History Daniel P. McCarthy 2008 There is a general consensus that the earliest or almost the earliest layer [of the Irish annals] is a chronicle kept in Iona up to the early or mid-eighth centuries. Columcille (founder of Iona) d. 597 AD. That might give a frame of reference. The Irish annals themselves are generally divided into two sections. Pre-patrician and post-Patrician. Anything prior to the time of St. Patrick is generally regarded as non-contemporary fill-ins from a later period. The post-Patrician portion of the annals of Ulster begins in 431 with a mention of Patrick himself. So perhaps the date I gave (700 AD) is a bit too late. I think there is general agreement that the Irish annals could not have been written prior to the advent of writing in Ireland which generally coincides with the arrival of Christianity. Others can throw in their two cents worth on this one. I'm certainly no expert at the dating of Irish annals. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 6/8/2011 4:44:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lawrencedill@ymail.com writes: I want to post this message because there has been a question about an earlier post that I made on this thread. I learned about Keating's History from this mailing-list a few months ago. I understood the passage from Keating's History as saying that during the time of Niall of the Nine Hostages, the Ui Neill had raided and settled in what is now known as SW Scotland. I learned from a more recent post that it can not really be known for sure what happened during the time of Niall because the Irish did not start recording history until possibly 700 AD. I tried to track down that reference to Nial and the settlement of chieftains in Scotland but didn't get far with it. Keating was quoting a line from a Life of St. Patrick. But I couldn't find a discussion of which Life of Patrick was being referenced. There are lots of them. O'Rahilly does not mention that specific statement about a settlement in Scotland but does mention a "late Latin life of Patrick" which is probably the same source. The "late" bit worried me a little. It's an interesting statement but without knowing the source I cannot begin to judge it's possible validity. As to when the Irish annals truly become historical I found this: The Irish Annals; Their Genesis, Evolution and History Daniel P. McCarthy 2008 There is a general consensus that the earliest or almost the earliest layer [of the Irish annals] is a chronicle kept in Iona up to the early or mid-eighth centuries. Columcille (founder of Iona) d. 597 AD. That might give a frame of reference. The Irish annals themselves are generally divided into two sections. Pre-patrician and post-Patrician. Anything prior to the time of St. Patrick is generally regarded as non-contemporary fill-ins from a later period. The post-Patrician portion of the annals of Ulster begins in 431 with a mention of Patrick himself. So perhaps the date I gave (700 AD) is a bit too late. I think there is general agreement that the Irish annals could not have been written prior to the advent of writing in Ireland which generally coincides with the arrival of Christianity. Others can throw in their two cents worth on this one. I'm certainly no expert at the dating of Irish annals. John

Whoops. Meant to say the Battle of Magh Rath / Cath Maige Rath. ________________________________ From: "jerrykelly@att.net" <jerrykelly@att.net> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 10:49:00 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went M222? Hi Lawrence, John's right. As far as we can tell, contemporary events start getting recorded in writing in the 8th century. Oral history (legend) also begins to be backfilled for earlier periods. In other words, people in the 8th century start writing down what they heard happened in previous centuries. Some of this backfilling looks pretty accurate. For example, the Battle of Rath does seem to have occurred about 637 A.D. But some of the history doesn't seem plausible by today's standards. For example, one of the causes of the battle is said to have been a miracle which Congal Cáech, King of the Dál nAraide, perceived as an insult. A goose's egg on a golden plate offered to Congal was changed into a hen's egg on a wooden plate due to a saint's curse. Everybody else got gold and goose. Congal threw a fit and declared war. Hope that's helpful. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 8:29 PM To: lawrencedill@ymail.com; DNA-R1B1C7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went M222? In a message dated 6/8/2011 4:44:43 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lawrencedill@ymail.com writes: I want to post this message because there has been a question about an earlier post that I made on this thread. I learned about Keating's History from this mailing-list a few months ago. I understood the passage from Keating's History as saying that during the time of Niall of the Nine Hostages, the Ui Neill had raided and settled in what is now known as SW Scotland. I learned from a more recent post that it can not really be known for sure what happened during the time of Niall because the Irish did not start recording history until possibly 700 AD. I tried to track down that reference to Nial and the settlement of chieftains in Scotland but didn't get far with it. Keating was quoting a line from a Life of St. Patrick. But I couldn't find a discussion of which Life of Patrick was being referenced. There are lots of them. O'Rahilly does not mention that specific statement about a settlement in Scotland but does mention a "late Latin life of Patrick" which is probably the same source. The "late" bit worried me a little. It's an interesting statement but without knowing the source I cannot begin to judge it's possible validity. As to when the Irish annals truly become historical I found this: The Irish Annals; Their Genesis, Evolution and History Daniel P. McCarthy 2008 There is a general consensus that the earliest or almost the earliest layer [of the Irish annals] is a chronicle kept in Iona up to the early or mid-eighth centuries. Columcille (founder of Iona) d. 597 AD. That might give a frame of reference. The Irish annals themselves are generally divided into two sections. Pre-patrician and post-Patrician. Anything prior to the time of St. Patrick is generally regarded as non-contemporary fill-ins from a later period. The post-Patrician portion of the annals of Ulster begins in 431 with a mention of Patrick himself. So perhaps the date I gave (700 AD) is a bit too late. I think there is general agreement that the Irish annals could not have been written prior to the advent of writing in Ireland which generally coincides with the arrival of Christianity. Others can throw in their two cents worth on this one. I'm certainly no expert at the dating of Irish annals. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 6/8/2011 11:46:23 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jerrykelly@att.net writes: So, we can discard any of those as the original name of any Celtic tribe who might have invaded. Da/l Chuinn isn't on Ptolemy's map, but the Da/l Chuinn are a branch of another people called the Fe/ini. Earlier spellings - Fe/ni, Fe/ne, etc. The etymological affinity of the name "Fe/ni" to the name of the Veneti, the tragic Gaulish tribe of Armorica, has long attracted attention. Jerry, a couple of questions. What establishes the Dal Cuinn as a branch of the Feni? Are we talking here of the Fenians of Irish mythology? Is there any dating for this cycle of Irish mythology? <But if we go back earlier, we find in 8th century documents that a distinction was made between the original Fe/ini and all the other Fe/ini-come-latelies. It appears that the original Fe/ini, as far as we can tell from the earliest tales and law-texts, consisted solely of the Da/l Chuinn, i.e., the Connachta and the Ui/ Ne/ill. What eighth century document is this? Is this what you're referring to in the firstJoh paragraph quoted? <The Vennicni sojourn on the west coast, and then, in order, the Rhobogdi towards the east. Is there anything there that could possibly, etymologically, develop into Fe/ni over time? Wish I were expert at the development of Common Celtic into P-Celtic and Q-Celtic, but I think there's an inviting possibility right there which has been overlooked. If you're talking about the Venicnii here we've discussed that as a possibility before. I always thought it odd that O'Rahilly ignored this name in his discussion of Ptolemy's map. You also have a similar name in lowland Scotland (Venicones). I'm open to the idea that the Dal Cuinn had an earlier tribal name in Ireland. Although it is possible to see the root Conn in the Venicone tribal name. Perhaps even in Venicnii if the name was corrupted. O'Rahilly's analysis of the Milesian scheme gets too much attention in my opinion. He only used it to attempt to show how the myth makers used traditional legendary material to stitch together a unified history of Ireland. He clearly did not take it seriously beyond that, mainly demonstrating that the Fir Bolg (Belgae) were in Ireland long before many other tribal groups. John

I want to post this message because there has been a question about an earlier post that I made on this thread. I learned about Keating's History from this mailing-list a few months ago. I understood the passage from Keating's History as saying that during the time of Niall of the Nine Hostages, the Ui Neill had raided and settled in what is now known as SW Scotland. I learned from a more recent post that it can not really be known for sure what happened during the time of Niall because the Irish did not start recording history until possibly 700 AD. I have learned a lot from John McLaughlin's posts but I do not always get it right.

Hi John, I'll work on this over the next few days. Best in the meantime, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 6:39:00 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went R222? - help from Ptolemy? In a message dated 6/8/2011 11:46:23 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jerrykelly@att.net writes: So, we can discard any of those as the original name of any Celtic tribe who might have invaded. Da/l Chuinn isn't on Ptolemy's map, but the Da/l Chuinn are a branch of another people called the Fe/ini. Earlier spellings - Fe/ni, Fe/ne, etc. The etymological affinity of the name "Fe/ni" to the name of the Veneti, the tragic Gaulish tribe of Armorica, has long attracted attention. Jerry, a couple of questions. What establishes the Dal Cuinn as a branch of the Feni? Are we talking here of the Fenians of Irish mythology? Is there any dating for this cycle of Irish mythology? <But if we go back earlier, we find in 8th century documents that a distinction was made between the original Fe/ini and all the other Fe/ini-come-latelies. It appears that the original Fe/ini, as far as we can tell from the earliest tales and law-texts, consisted solely of the Da/l Chuinn, i.e., the Connachta and the Ui/ Ne/ill. What eighth century document is this? Is this what you're referring to in the firstJoh paragraph quoted? <The Vennicni sojourn on the west coast, and then, in order, the Rhobogdi towards the east. Is there anything there that could possibly, etymologically, develop into Fe/ni over time? Wish I were expert at the development of Common Celtic into P-Celtic and Q-Celtic, but I think there's an inviting possibility right there which has been overlooked. If you're talking about the Venicnii here we've discussed that as a possibility before. I always thought it odd that O'Rahilly ignored this name in his discussion of Ptolemy's map. You also have a similar name in lowland Scotland (Venicones). I'm open to the idea that the Dal Cuinn had an earlier tribal name in Ireland. Although it is possible to see the root Conn in the Venicone tribal name. Perhaps even in Venicnii if the name was corrupted. O'Rahilly's analysis of the Milesian scheme gets too much attention in my opinion. He only used it to attempt to show how the myth makers used traditional legendary material to stitch together a unified history of Ireland. He clearly did not take it seriously beyond that, mainly demonstrating that the Fir Bolg (Belgae) were in Ireland long before many other tribal groups. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi John, Following up on your observation of May 28. You wrote: "In spite of that I can't quite shake off the remarks of O'Rahilly that the Ui Neill (ie, M222) were late comers to Ireland, arriving between 300 and 30 BC. Much of his theory seemed to be based on the evidence of Ptolemy's map of Ireland in which he could find no trace of a tribal name similar to Dal Cuinn, the original tribal designation from which the Ui Neill sprang. I can't find one either. Can anyone? And his statement that they should be in evidence in Ptolemy's map cannot be lightly disregarded. O'Rahilly believed that the Dal Cuinn came to Ireland from Gaul (not from England). But much of his theory is tangled up in linguistics, P vs. Q-Celt, and that part is not accepted by most linguists. I think he assumed all of Britain was P-Celtic speaking and therefore the Dal Cuinn (Q-Celts) could not have come from Britain. He seems to have thought Scotland at the time was also P-Celtic and therefore looked to the backwaters of Celtic Gaul for possible origin locations, where Q-Celtic was known to have survived in a number of tribal designations." This may help. Irish scholars right up to and including O'Rahilly had a very difficult time shaking off the influence of the Book of Invasions and the idea of a "Goidelic" invasion of Ireland. (Happily, the new generation of Francis John Byrne, Fergus Kelly, Toma/s O/ Cathasaigh, etc. doesn't have that problem.) One problem I've noticed with the idea of a "Goidelic" invasion - each of the 3 names for the "Goidels" or Gaeil popularized by the Book of Invasions are exonyms. Plus, they don't remotely satisfy/fulfill the Celtic tribal concept of "the god my people swear by". Those 3 names are: 1. Goidheal & variations - from Old Brythonnic gwyddel (and variations) = 'wild ones', applied to Irish invaders/marauders of Roman Britain 2. Scotti - seemingly from Latin, perhaps ultimately derived from the Greek word skotos- darkness (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoti ) 3. Ui/ Mi/leadh = descendants of the Miletus (Latin for 'soldier') So, we can discard any of those as the original name of any Celtic tribe who might have invaded. Da/l Chuinn isn't on Ptolemy's map, but the Da/l Chuinn are a branch of another people called the Fe/ini. Earlier spellings - Fe/ni, Fe/ne, etc. The etymological affinity of the name "Fe/ni" to the name of the Veneti, the tragic Gaulish tribe of Armorica, has long attracted attention. By the high middle ages, nearly every tribe and clan in Ireland claimed to be a branch of the Fe/ini. Understandable, given that only the Fe/ini had 'saor' (free/noble) status under Fe/ineachas (Fe/ini-Seanchas - the Law of the Fe/ini, called 'Brehon Law' in English). But if we go back earlier, we find in 8th century documents that a distinction was made between the original Fe/ini and all the other Fe/ini-come-latelies. It appears that the original Fe/ini, as far as we can tell from the earliest tales and law-texts, consisted solely of the Da/l Chuinn, i.e., the Connachta and the Ui/ Ne/ill. Now we can look at Ptolemy again, exactly where we would expect to find R:M222: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire150.htm Or, to quote the relevant section by Ptolemy: 1. The north coast of the British Island of Hibernia lies close to the Hyperborean Sea, it has an outline thus; §2. . Part of the Boreum Promontory 11° 0Ö61° 0 . Vennicium Promontory 12° 50Ö61° 20Ö . Vidus River mouth 13° 0Ö61° 0Ö . Argita River mouth 14° 30Ö61° 30Ö . Robogdium Promontory 16° 20Ö61° 30Ö§3. The Vennicni sojourn on the west coast, and then, in order, the Rhobogdi towards the east. Is there anything there that could possibly, etymologically, develop into Fe/ni over time? Wish I were expert at the development of Common Celtic into P-Celtic and Q-Celtic, but I think there's an inviting possibility right there which has been overlooked. As for the question of language, roughly two-thirds of the Iberian Peninsula's peoples were speaking Celtiberian (a Q-Celtic language) at the time of the Roman invasion. I understand that genetic markers are very similar for northwest Ireland and northwest Spain. Ireland's own legends talk about an Iberian origin. Maybe O'Rahilly was right that Ireland's Q-Celtic came from Gaul, but I think it's more likely that it came from Iberia. Le gach dea-ghui/ Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, May 28, 2011 9:00:04 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went R222? In a message dated 5/27/2011 9:21:13 A.M. Central Daylight Time, davidewing93@gmail.com writes: I am not sure what Bill's latest iteration of an estimate for years/RCC is, but I think it is on the order of 50, give or take 10. This suggests that these Ewings diverged from most of the rest of R:M222 on the order of 1500 years ago but the very most distant R:M222 haplotypes diverged more like 2500 years ago. These numbers are wildly approximate, and even so, I am not sure I believe the approach to calculating them, but I thought it might be helpful to offer them as a concrete target for criticism and comment. I have a copy of a chart Bill did recently as part of a draft paper on M222. In it he compares 9 surnames from the M222 project, Ewing, Doherty, McMonigal, Dunbar, McCord, McAdam, Cowan, Howle, Davidson. He describes the results as follows: The testees in each of these nine surname clusters have a MRCA who lived at approximately the time given in the table. In Figure 1, going upward from the bottom right toward the top, the Cowan surname cluster members had an earliest progenitor at RCC ~ 13 (1250-1300 AD) who shared the progenitor of the McCord and McAdam surname cluster members at RCC ~19 (about 940 AD). That progenitor who lived at RCC ~ 19 shared a progenitor at RCC~ 26 (575 AD) with the progenitor of the Howle and Davidson cluster at RCC ~ 18.5 (970 AD). The progenitor at RCC ~26 shared a progenitor of the Dunbar-Doherty-McGonigal group at RCC ~28 (470 AD) and finally, we reach the Ewing progenitor who was common to, and shared by them all at RCC ~ 38.5 (85 BC). The descendants of this Ewing progenitor formed different lines of descent because of mutations and those lines eventually became surnames in about 900-1100 AD, one of which was Ewing. What this shows is a common ancestor for the above 9 M222 surnames at 38 RCC or about 85 BC. The next common ancestor in the group occurs at 28 RCC or about 470 AD. This includes all other surnames named above. Among those with a common ancestor at 470 AD. are the Dohertys, McMonigals and Dunbars in one cluster. And Davidsons, Howles, McCords, McAdams and Cowans in another cluster with a another common ancestor slightly later, at 576 AD.. The Doherty-McMonigal cluster seems fairly accurate. Both are probably descendants of Nial (c. 450 AD) although we do not know for sure about the McMonigals. It is a common Donegal surname though. The inclusion of the M222 Dunbars in this cluster is confusing. The M222 Dunbars form a small percentage of the overall Dunbars tested. If nothing else this data would seem to imply the Ewings descend in a lone cluster from a common ancestor of all in about 85 BC. which would obviously make them pre-Nial. The picture is not so clear for the last two clusters composed of Cowans, Davidsons, Howles, McCords and McAdams. In the chart they too share a common ancestor with the known Nial descendants at about 470 AD. but have their own common ancestor slightly later, about 575 AD. Most of these surnames are Scottish with the exception of Howle, which is English. Or at least what is known of the samples is their common ancestor came to America from England. Some internet sources say the name could be Welsh (Howell). What is known of Irish history won't help much in this case mainly because nothing is known with certainty prior to the time of Nial. He certainly had ancestors in Ireland for at least some generations because the Connachta, said to descend from his half-brothers, are also M222. The Irish annals do not become truly historical until well after the time of Nial (perhaps 700-800 AD?). So if some kind of migration to Scotland occurred in the centuries immediately after his death we would never know it from Irish sources. Or Scottish sources which are virtually nonexistent. Bill's larger charts of M222 also paint a confusing picture of the Ewings and possible cluster members in Scotland. Clustered closely with the Ewings in one chart I've seen are the following samples: Doherty McLaughlin (2) Ferguson Guinn The two McLaughlin samples are part of our Donegal McLaughlin cluster. Both match 2 of 3 modal markers which define the cluster. One would expect them to be clustered with the Dohertys et al in this charts but they are not. It's possible they are not valid members of the McLaughlin of Donegal cluster. It's also possible the software simply misplaced them in the charts since both are outlyers in the McLaughlin cluster. I imagine the same type of scenario applies to the Doherty sample. As David mentioned, the larger chart does contain common ancestor junction points earlier than that of the Ewings. The earliest one appears to be about 68 Rcc or about ;1000 BC. The names in this portion of the chart are a jumble of Scottish and Irish surnames, many of which appear in solid clusters elsewhere in the chart. I am inclined to think these are more outlyers thrown out to the fringes of the chart. I do not think the fact that the Ewings are obviously pre-Nial means M222 originated in Scotland. They could have originated in Ireland and moved to Scotland at any time prior to 450 AD or even later. Nor do I think the fact that the Cowans, McCords, Davidsons et al appear to share a close ancestor at about the time of Nial means they were descendants of Nial. In fact I can't draw much of a conclusion from any of this material. It does tend to show earlier MRCA estimates for the cluster than most methods including ASD. which typically come in around 400 AD. or a century or two earlier. As everyone on this list knows it is now dogma that M222 originated in Ireland. That has been the case since the earliest days of M222 (McEwan, Nordtvedt). It was recently restated in the Moffat-Wilson book discussed recently on this list. I'll repost a few of their comments here: Wilson: This I think is a mark of a movement from Ireland to Scotland at some point in the past, rather long ago, because these are not men with Irish surnames. They have ordinary Scottish surnames that have been in Scotland for hundreds of years. Moffat: In other words were the Gaels either immigrants or were they a native people who spoke Gaelic anyway? Wilson: Well I think that the Gaels of Dal Riata originated in Ireland. And this is because we've discovered and characterized a marker, a DNA marker, so a piece of DNA that varies between individuals which we call M222. This is an incredible marker actually because about 20% of all Irish men carry this Y-chromsome marker. And when we look up into the north to Ulster it's over 40% - so it's extremely common and it shows all these people descend from one man at some point in the past. In this case we think know who the progenitor is. Moffat: Because Nial of the Nine hostages is a figure of some historical substance around 400,500 AD. that means people with his marker in Scotland have moved from Ireland and that's there's been a substantial migration. Wilson: I think that is the case. Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data we will see that and the case will be closed. In spite of that I can't quite shake off the remarks of O'Rahilly that the Ui Neill (ie, M222) were late comers to Ireland, arriving between 300 and 30 BC. Much of his theory seemed to be based on the evidence of Ptolemy's map of Ireland in which he could find no trace of a tribal name similar to Dal Cuinn, the original tribal designation from which the Ui Neill sprang. I can't find one either. Can anyone? And his statement that they should be in evidence in Ptolemy's map cannot be lightly disregarded. O'Rahilly believed that the Dal Cuinn came to Ireland from Gaul (not from England). But much of his theory is tangled up in linguistics, P vs. Q-Celt, and that part is not accepted by most linguists. I think he assumed all of Britain was P-Celtic speaking and therefore the Dal Cuinn (Q-Celts) could not have come from Britain. He seems to have thought Scotland at the time was also P-Celtic and therefore looked to the backwaters of Celtic Gaul for possible origin locations, where Q-Celtic was known to have survived in a number of tribal designations. Yet there is at least one archeologist out there (Campbell, "Were the Scots Irish") who believes a Q-Celtic backwater could be found much closer to home, in western Scotland. That theory too is hotly debated as are most theories. I found one statement of Wilson's highly interesting: "Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data we will see that and the case will be closed." I'm patiently waiting for closure. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On the subject of the god Orcus, he refered to in 7th century Noyon (in the area of Gallica Belgae) as Pagan god worshipped by what would have been a local Gallo-Roman speaking population. (Celtic "Lugh" is associated with oaths.) > From: bernardmorgan@hotmail.com > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 20:45:32 +0000 > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Orcanus > > > > Is Orcanus latin as in Orcanus Orca (latin name for Killer Whale). Orcanus (Orcinus) means belonging to Ocrus? Orcus, god of the underworld, punisher of broken oaths in Italic and Roman mythology.... So the Lamonts (i.e. Lawman) descended from one named for the punisher of broken oaths? > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Does anybody know of any interesting web sites on Galloway Scotland? I am aware of one interesting web site on Galloway. If anybody has a question about Galloway, you might consider posting a question at the following web site: http://greengalloway.blogspot.com/2011/05/short-history-of-gaelic-in-galloway.html

Thanks Jerry I was worried about the hard 'g' as well, and you've clarified that within the Irish Gaelic language framework, it is difficult to see how McErachar/MacFerchar could become McHarg. McHar I can see (as Mac Giolla Iain became McLean). But I too can't figure out why a 'g' would be added. But that's within the Irish Gaelic language framework. I wonder whether we shouldn't be thinking in terms of a language corruption, rather than trying to explain it grammatically or phonetically. The reason for my suspicion is that my Y-STR DNA is much closer to McHarg than McHargue is to McHarg. That would be explained if McErachar=McHar=McHarg. Sandy [On whether MacErachar/MacFerchar could become McHarg/McHargue, I don't think so. The ch in Ulster Irish is almost silent, and I'm guessing that Scots Gaelic treats it the same way. (But that's a guess become I'm sorry to say I don't speak Scots Gaelic, just Irish Gaelic.) If so, however, there's nothing left in MacErachar/MacFerchar to result in the hard G in McHarg/McHargue.]

Hi Sandy, Some families took additional surnames. So there's no need to look for an equivalence of McErachar with McHarg. Or, more specifically, Mac Fhearchar with Mac Giolla Chairge. Don't forget that anglicization happened over generations of witnesses, bi-lingual people who could record the original tradition. Gaelic society of Ireland, Scotland, and Man was, in its prime, the most literate society in Europe. When people know that McHarg comes from Mac Giolla Chairge and McErachar from Mac Fhearchar, they really do know it. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, June 1, 2011 4:09:19 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Icelandic M222 Thanks Jerry I was worried about the hard 'g' as well, and you've clarified that within the Irish Gaelic language framework, it is difficult to see how McErachar/MacFerchar could become McHarg. McHar I can see (as Mac Giolla Iain became McLean). But I too can't figure out why a 'g' would be added. But that's within the Irish Gaelic language framework. I wonder whether we shouldn't be thinking in terms of a language corruption, rather than trying to explain it grammatically or phonetically. The reason for my suspicion is that my Y-STR DNA is much closer to McHarg than McHargue is to McHarg. That would be explained if McErachar=McHar=McHarg. Sandy [On whether MacErachar/MacFerchar could become McHarg/McHargue, I don't think so. The ch in Ulster Irish is almost silent, and I'm guessing that Scots Gaelic treats it the same way. (But that's a guess become I'm sorry to say I don't speak Scots Gaelic, just Irish Gaelic.) If so, however, there's nothing left in MacErachar/MacFerchar to result in the hard G in McHarg/McHargue.] R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sandy, I don't know of any reference work dedicated solely to the erenagh / ecclesiastical families, although we could sure use one. The following books provide good information about surnames in Ireland including the erenagh families: Bell, Robert. The Book of Ulster Surnames. MacLysaght, Edward. Surnames of Ireland. Woulfe, Rev. Patrick. Sloinnte Gaedheal Is Gall (Surnames of the Gaeil and the Gaill) Bell, MacLysaght, and Woulfe tried to provide entries on all the surnames which came into Ireland from Scotland. Relatedly, I found MacHarg/McHargue in MacLysaght. It's from Mac Giolla Chairge. MacIlhargy is another anglicization. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, May 26, 2011 12:21:36 PM Subject: [R-M222] abbots, abbesses, and heirs Jerry, Where is a good place to search for descendants of ecclesiastics? If I'm right about the Lamonts having obtained the huge tracts of land that they appeared to have owned at one stage through descent from an ecclesiastical ancestor, it's just possible that we may be able to better understand the Lamont pedigree in the new transcript of manuscript 1467. There are already, in my opinion, good clues to be gained from DNA, although Lamont DNA at this stage is quite difficult to interpret. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 26 May 2011 16:45 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] abbots, abbesses, and heirs Hi Jane, Yes, that's a good example of the Celtic churches at work. I remember that Paul pointed this one out. So when evaluating ancient genealogies, it's important not to ignore the ecclesiastics as contributors to the gene pool. Their were many hereditary ecclesiastical families, called 'erenaghs' in English and airchinnigh (the plural of airchinneach) in the Gaelic languages Le gach dea-ghui/, Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Jane <JaneKaschak@sbcglobal.net> To: "jerrykelly@att.net" <jerrykelly@att.net>; "dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com" <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thu, May 26, 2011 9:48:29 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] abbots, abbesses, and heirs I have discovered that my McAnaspy's are translated, son of the bishop, it appears to be a rare Gaelic name. Sent from my iPhone On May 17, 2011, at 1:06 PM, jerrykelly@att.net wrote: > A chairde / Friends, > > As you know, celibacy was not a requirement of the early Church in Ireland > and Scotland. Instead, it was a special mark of sanctity chosen by few. > > I can't find the exact reference at the moment, wish I could, but many monks > had as many as 3 wives in honor of the Patriarchs. Around the 8-9th > Centuries, the Irish church tried to convince the monks to keep it down to 1 > wife, and got a lot of flak from the rank and file for defying Biblical > tradition. > > Here is a related comment from the law text known as Bretha Crólige: > > > > There is dispute in Irish law as to which is more proper, whether many > sexual unions or a single one: for the chosen people of God lived in > plurality of unions. (Kelly, Fergus. A Guide to Early Irish Law. Dublin: > Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1998. p. 71) > > > This non-celibate tradition is reflected by some of our surnames, including: > > MacTaggart - Mac an tSagairt - Son of the Priest > MacAnerny - Mac an Airchinnigh - Son of the Airchinneach ('Erenagh' in > English) > MacNabb - Mac an Abbadh - Son of the Abbot > > Monasteries were handed down within the hereditary 'erenagh' families, some > of whom were royal. These families were expected to staff these > institutions with their descendants. Choice of leadership and ownership was > by Féineachas ('Brehon Law'), within the electable derbh-fhine ('true > family' sharing common descent from a common great-grandfather). > Ecclesiastics were called by both God and blood, so the Church was strong > and constantly expanding, in contrast to what we see today. > > Examples of royal abbesses and abbots include St. Brighid, Abbess and Bishop > of Cill Dara ('Kildare'). And, of course, Colm Cille. As you know, Colm > Cille was of the righ-damhna or 'stuff of kings' of the Cinéal Chonaill, > electable as their King at a time when the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill > of the North, especially the Cinéal Chonaill and Cinéal nEoghain) were busy > creating the High-Kingship of Ireland. > > Colm Cille remained celebate so his successors like Adamnán were close > relatives of his, also royal, rather than direct descendants. Right up > until the point that they were extinguished, the Columban daughter houses > were typically staffed at the top with close relatives of Colm Cille. Many > of these successors married and had children. Some of these in turn became > comh-arba ('heirs' or 'successors') of Colm Cille. > > I don't know about Scotland, but in Ireland, marriage by priests, monks, and > nuns was common right up until the imposition of English Common Law in 1603. > At that point, the territories owned by the erenagh families and all > properties owned by right of descent from married ecclesiastics were > escheated to the English crown on the basis of 'bastardry' - no legitimate > heir. > > Go raibh sé sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful. > > Best, > Jerry > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sandy, Wish I knew Icelandic or Norse to know how Myrkjartan would be pronounced. A major reservation flows from the r in Myrk. If that yields something sounding like Marc or Mirc in Icelandic, then I think it may not be derived from the Gaelic word Mac. On whether MacErachar/MacFerchar could become McHarg/McHargue, I don't think so. The ch in Ulster Irish is almost silent, and I'm guessing that Scots Gaelic treats it the same way. (But that's a guess become I'm sorry to say I don't speak Scots Gaelic, just Irish Gaelic.) If so, however, there's nothing left in MacErachar/MacFerchar to result in the hard G in McHarg/McHargue. I'm also guessing that the origin of McHarg/McHargue is known and cited in some of the modern works on Scottish surnames. I'll try to look tonight when I get home, although my Scottish surname library is small. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, May 27, 2011 1:41:39 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Icelandic M222 Paul/Jerry > I wonder if: Myrkjartan = McCartan > I have no idea why, but I think you're spot on. Can you help me with something? If Mac Giolla Eain = McLean could MacErachar/MacFerchar = McHarg/McHargue If so, that could explain why my Y-STR is so close to McHarg. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy Sent: 26 May 2011 18:00 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Icelandic M222 David, Very Interesting. I wonder if: Myrkjartan = McCartan On 23AndMe I have an Icelandic relative! Cheers, Paul On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 12:17 PM, David H. MacLennan < david.maclennan@utoronto.ca> wrote: > > I realize that this forum is about Scots M222 DNA and that is of great > interest to me also. However, I think that everyone would also like to find > a genealogy going back to 900 AD or so that would actually link up with the > Ui Niall. Perhaps the one place in Europe where fairly accurate genealogies > were maintained since that period was in Iceland. My mother was Icelandic > and I have her family tree going back to the settlement times in the late > 800s. > You are certainly all aware that the Vikings who settled Iceland (and > Ireland) had no qualms about bringing Irish slaves back to Iceland and > their > intermingling with the Irish may well have led to Irishmen joining the > Vikings in their escapades willingly. One of the most famous was Melkorka, > an Irish Princess, who was brought as a concubine to Iceland by a powerful > and wealthy Viking named Hoskuldur. She was so pissed off by her captors > and > her captivity that she refused to speak and was believed to be mute. One > day > she was heard singing in the meadow to her children and the truth was out! > She then told them of her heritage and produced a gold token of her > lineage. > Her son "Olaf the Peacock", was the handsomest man in Iceland and, > obviously, a member of a powerful line. As a Viking, he made his way back > to > Ireland and met his grandfather, Myrkjartan. Ólaf was accepted by > Myrkjartan, who even offered to make him his heir. However, Ólaf returned > to > Iceland. This history is in the Laxdaela Saga of Snorri Sturlasson, written > in the 1200s. > The point I wish to make is that Icelandic carriers of the M222 > haplotype might have a lineage that could be traced accurately back to the > settlement of Iceland before 900 AD. The question would then be whether a > connection could be made back to an Irish family, as was done in the case > of > Melkorka. Has anyone made a serious investigation of Icelandic M222 > individuals and their genalogy? > Incidentally, I can trace my own lineage back to Melkorka and might even > carry a few percent of her autosomal DNA. > David > > -- > Dr. David H. MacLennan, > Banting and Best Department of Medical Research, > University of Toronto, Charles H. Best Institute, > 112 College St., Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5G1L6 > Tel:1-416-978-5008 Fax:1-416-978-8528 > http://www.utoronto.ca/maclennan > > > > From: <Lochlan@aol.com> > > Reply-To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > > Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:51:11 EDT > > To: <dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com> > > Subject: [R-M222] M222 Files > > > > I'm going to pass along an email I received from one of the admins. of > the > > L21 Project. The links given require a Yahoo ID and password to view > > them. So far I haven't been able to remember my old Yahoo password so I > > haven't been able to look at them yet myself. > > > > Dear John and David, > > > > Please invite the M222 project members to access this and comment on > this > > this file which includes them. > > > > M222 is a key part of L21 and I've developed a spreadsheet based system > to > > download L21+ haplotypes, including M222+, from multiple FTDNA projects. > I > > maintain post the spreadsheet file at the web site and Yahoo Group > listed > > below for all who are interested. > > > > I attempt to designate "speculative" clusters or deep ancestral > varieties > > for everyone in the file. I need help on this so would appreciate any > > commentary from M222 folks. I also try to look up the Ysearch IDs and > insert > > the > > correct MDKA info and categorize by geography (down to the > > county/department/shire level) so statisical analysis can be done easily > by > > geography. > > > > Regards, > > Mike Walsh > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: > > <_RL21Project@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:RL21Project@yahoogroups.com) > > > Date: Tue, May 24, 2011 at 6:59 PM > > Subject: [RL21Project] New file uploaded to RL21Project > > > > > > > > > > This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been > > uploaded to the Files area of the RL21Project > > group. > > > > File : /R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip > > Uploaded by : mikewww7 <_mwwdna@gmail.com_ (mailto:mwwdna@gmail.com) > > > Description : R-L21+ Confirmed and Suspected Haplotypes including M222 > and > > all subclades with latest downstream SNP results. 2011-05-24 version - > > M.Walsh > > > > You can access this file at the URL: > > _ > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip_ > > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/R-L21All_Haplotypes.zip > ) > > > > To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: > > _ > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html_ > > (http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html > ) > > To join the R-L21 Yahoo group and get access to the files go to > > _http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/join > > _ ( > http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html) > > Regards, > > R-L21 Plus Project Co-Admin > > > > > > > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Allene, This is a work still in progress. In the final paper we may analyze different surnames. But the analysis of the ones that John posted are within the ball park with respect to their RCCs and times. Sorry we cannot include more. When more get tested it will be easier. - Bye from Bill Howard On May 30, 2011, at 9:38 PM, Allene Goforth wrote: > Thanks, Bill. I have forgotten what the RCC stands for. I know it was > mentioned earlier. Also, is the reason the Milligans and the Griersons > aren't on this chart because they didn't test enough M222 people to make > a cluster? Those are the ones closest to my lines, especially Milligan. > > Thanks, > > Allene > > On 5/30/2011 6:21 PM, Bill Howard wrote: >> Hi, Allene, >> Answers are in your paragraph, below. >> >> On May 30, 2011, at 9:03 PM, Allene Goforth wrote: >> >>> Working across at M[a]cAdam (only one of the five uses "McAdam"): What >>> is the 5/5/ for? >> Five out of five are in a cluster. >> >>> When the horizontal McAdam intersects with the vertical >>> McAdam, what is the 7.7 for? >> That's the RCC of the TMRCA of the McAdams >> >>> Is 1540 AD the date of the common ancestor >>> for all five lines of MacAdam? >> It is the RCC for the cluster, so in this case, Yes. >> >>> That would make sense. I was guessing it >>> was in the 1600s or a bit earlier. What is the 15.15 and 28 at the end? >> Above the diagonal are the RCC values for the TMRCAs of the common ancestor of the surnames of the intercluster. That is, 15.5 is the RCC of the MRCA of the McCords and the McAdams. That corresponds roughly to 1130 AD (the intersection below the diagonal. 28 is the RCC of the MRCA of the McGonigles and the McAdams, and is roughly 470 AD. >> >> Hope this helps you (and others) to interpret how to read the junctions on the tree. >> - Bye from Bill Howard >> >>> Thanks, >>> Allene >>> >>> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >>> >>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links: >> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, Allene, Answers are in your paragraph, below. On May 30, 2011, at 9:03 PM, Allene Goforth wrote: > Working across at M[a]cAdam (only one of the five uses "McAdam"): What > is the 5/5/ for? Five out of five are in a cluster. > When the horizontal McAdam intersects with the vertical > McAdam, what is the 7.7 for? That's the RCC of the TMRCA of the McAdams > Is 1540 AD the date of the common ancestor > for all five lines of MacAdam? It is the RCC for the cluster, so in this case, Yes. > That would make sense. I was guessing it > was in the 1600s or a bit earlier. What is the 15.15 and 28 at the end? Above the diagonal are the RCC values for the TMRCAs of the common ancestor of the surnames of the intercluster. That is, 15.5 is the RCC of the MRCA of the McCords and the McAdams. That corresponds roughly to 1130 AD (the intersection below the diagonal. 28 is the RCC of the MRCA of the McGonigles and the McAdams, and is roughly 470 AD. Hope this helps you (and others) to interpret how to read the junctions on the tree. - Bye from Bill Howard > > Thanks, > Allene > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have found something very disturbing indeed. I've been following the 68-111 marker development quite closely, but looking only at markers 68-111. In the M222 project, there's a Keilty (N86819) who so far matches me (Paterson, 118913) 25/26, a single-step mismatch at DYS549. He has 13, I have 12. So I thought I'd have a look at the first 67 markers. Here, it looks as if we are from different planets. We have a gd of 18 over 67 markers. This is the third very suspicious looking mix-n-match I've found involving my Y-STR DNA within a week. Is it too soon to panic? Sandy

Bill gave me permission to put the chart and table online that accompany his statements on the RCC of the various surnames discussed. You can see it here: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/M222Table.doc John