What I find interesting is that with the extension to 111-markers, the McHenrys and the Cains & variants are no longer obvious kin. The Cain and Kane in the M222 project plus my haplotype all have DYS439=13 DYS570=18 DYS446=14+ DYS715=23 DYS513=14 DYS643=11 The DYS643=11 looks particularly rare, and if you have a look at L21+ you'll see that it shows very little dispersion from 10, which is overwhelmingly modal in both M222 and L21. In the O'Cathain group of Ulster Heritage, only a solitary Cain has the above, with Devenny, McHenry and Slavin not matching any of the 68-111 marker ones. Slaven though, matches two other off-modal markers with me in the 68-111 marker group. So to me, it looks like the Cain/Kane/McCann grouping in Barry's group are going to end up distinctly different to all other surnames, yet they match me on some unusual markers. So I'm still batting on the side of Cain = Law Cain = Lagman Kane Laumon McCann Lamont Both descended from Orcanus. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 25 June 2011 02:49 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS I haven't looked at those 111 marker results lately myself. There are 59 results showing now - a few more if you count the non or pre M222 sections. I looked at your closest matches in the 111 marker section. Interesting. Two Kanes and a Slevins. But then you've mentioned those matches before. I looked at the Kains/Cains in several different projects, including that of Barra McCain, who first identified the DNA of O Cathain of Ulster. On a different O Cathain site at FTDNA it seems there are some Cain/Kane variants that do not belong in the cluster. The Ulster O Cathains as identified by Barra always cluster nicely around several McHenry samples, a related Irish sept said to have split off the O Cathain line in about 1400 AD. The FTDNA site also has a McCloskey sample that matches nicely although it's only 25 markers. McCloseky is another sept said to descend from the Ulster O Cathains. The O Cathains were a Cenel Eoghain sept, said to descend from the line of the High Kings of Ireland prior to the O'Neills and MacLochlainns. How might the Slevins fit into this picture? According to MacLysaght, the surname Slevin/Sleven (O Sleibhin) was a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in Ulster; an old ecclesiastical family in Fermanagh. Some later settled in Westmeath in the 17th century. He adds more in More Irish Families. "More Irish Families" by Dr. Edward MacLysaght: (O) Slevin, Slavin: Both the forms Slevin and Slavin are found today in about equal numbers, chiefly in Ulster, 18 of the 25 births registered for the name in Matheson's test year being in that province. O Sleibhin, which is said to be derived from the Irish word 'sliabh' (a mountain) was the name of a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in Ulster, famous in the early midiaeval period as poets. Giolla Comhghaill O Sleibhin, chief bard of Ulster, was associated with King Malachy in the northern resistance to Brian Boru; other Ulster poets of the name about the same time are mentioned by the Four Masters, as well as one who was chief poet of Oriel in 1168. Though seldom met with in historical records after that time, they evidently did not sink into obscurity since as late as 1514 we find in the Ormond Deeds a judgement of the Liberty Court of Tipperary in which Terrelagh O'Slevin, together with an O'Donnell, is described as "pure Irish of the Irish nation" when charged with acquisition of lands contrary to statute; and again in the Survey of Co. Fermanagh made in 1603 Munter Slevins are cited as "carbes" (coarbs) of Killtyerman in the barony of Lurg. I myself have never been able to find the source of MacLysaght's statement that the Sleibhins were Cenel Eoghain (or at least some of them were). But given the fact that they are M222 and match the O Cathains of Londonderry Co. in Ireland it seems possible this is true. So what does that portend for a Patterson who is really a Lamont? It's extremely difficult not to think of the tale of the O Cathains bride in this context. The clan Donald, Volume 1 By Archibald Macdonald "The lady's portion took the form of 140 men out of every surname in O'Cathain's territory, and the descendants of those who left representatives are known to this day in the Highlands as "tochradh nighean a' Chathanaich" - the dowry of O'Cathain's daughter. The name of some of these immigrants have come down by tradition. Two families, the Munroes, so called because they came from the innermost Roe water in the County of Derry, their name being originally O'Millan, and the Roses of Kilravoxk, rose to territorial distinction in the North Highlands. The other names preserved by Hugh Macdonald are the Fearns, Dingwalls, Beatons, Macphersons, Bulikes of Cathiness, while the MS of 1700 mentions, in addition to the foregoing, Dunbar, Maelinen, and the MacGilleglasses. Divided Gaels: Gaelic cultural identities in Scotland and Ireland, c.1200-c.1650 By Wilson McLeod Marriags of Irishwomen to Scottish chiefs were also arranged, notably the celebrated union (c. 1300) between Aongus Oge Mac Domhnaill (+ c. 1329) and Aine, daugher of Cu Miaghe na nGall O Cathain of the Ciannachta in modern cdo. Derry, for which a number of learned men were provided as dowry (known as 'tochardh nighean a' Chathanaich' in later Scottish tradition), whose progeny went on to become some of the leading lights of late medieval Gaelic Scotland. Note in this material the surname Dunbar. There is a small group of Dunbars who are M222 and do not match the great majority of other Dunbars in the databases. In phylogenetic trees of various kinds they routinely cluster near the McLaughlins and Dohertys of Ireland. The McLaughlins of Ireland (at least the Donegal variety) were also Cenel Eoghain. It's interesting to note that within the line of the High Kings of Ireland the O Cathains were one of the closet relatives of the McLaughlins of Donegal, splitting off the main line in about 700 AD. The McLaughlins appeared from the same line about two centuries later. Yet they do not match in DNA except for the fact that both are M222. The original tale of the O Cathain bride came from two sources, the 17th century History of the McDonalds by Hugh McDonald and the Book of Clanranald of about the same date. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Sandy, You have no comparison time scale to say that they are no longer obvious kin. The haplotypes might be distinctly different in the region above 37 markers, but they could still be related within the genealogical time scale. - Bye from Bill Howard ' On Jun 25, 2011, at 3:11 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > What I find interesting is that with the extension to 111-markers, the > McHenrys and the Cains & variants are no longer obvious kin. > > The Cain and Kane in the M222 project plus my haplotype all have > > DYS439=13 > DYS570=18 > DYS446=14+ > DYS715=23 > DYS513=14 > DYS643=11 > > The DYS643=11 looks particularly rare, and if you have a look at L21+ you'll > see that it shows very little dispersion from 10, which is overwhelmingly > modal in both M222 and L21. > > In the O'Cathain group of Ulster Heritage, only a solitary Cain has the > above, with Devenny, McHenry and Slavin not matching any of the 68-111 > marker ones. Slaven though, matches two other off-modal markers with me in > the 68-111 marker group. > > So to me, it looks like the Cain/Kane/McCann grouping in Barry's group are > going to end up distinctly different to all other surnames, yet they match > me on some unusual markers. > > So I'm still batting on the side of > > Cain = Law > > Cain = Lagman > Kane Laumon > McCann Lamont > > Both descended from Orcanus. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com > Sent: 25 June 2011 02:49 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS > > I haven't looked at those 111 marker results lately myself. There are 59 > results showing now - a few more if you count the non or pre M222 > sections. > > I looked at your closest matches in the 111 marker section. > Interesting. Two Kanes and a Slevins. But then you've mentioned those > matches > before. I looked at the Kains/Cains in several different projects, > including > that of Barra McCain, who first identified the DNA of O Cathain of Ulster. > > On a different O Cathain site at FTDNA it seems there are some Cain/Kane > variants that do not belong in the cluster. The Ulster O Cathains as > identified by Barra always cluster nicely around several McHenry samples, a > related > Irish sept said to have split off the O Cathain line in about 1400 AD. > The FTDNA site also has a McCloskey sample that matches nicely although > it's > only 25 markers. McCloseky is another sept said to descend from the Ulster > > O Cathains. > > The O Cathains were a Cenel Eoghain sept, said to descend from the line of > the High Kings of Ireland prior to the O'Neills and MacLochlainns. How > might the Slevins fit into this picture? According to MacLysaght, the > surname Slevin/Sleven (O Sleibhin) was a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in > Ulster; > an old ecclesiastical family in Fermanagh. Some later settled in Westmeath > > in the 17th century. > > He adds more in More Irish Families. > > "More Irish Families" by Dr. Edward MacLysaght: > > (O) Slevin, Slavin: Both the forms Slevin and Slavin are found today in > about equal numbers, chiefly in Ulster, 18 of the 25 births registered for > the > name in Matheson's test year being in that province. O Sleibhin, which is > said to be derived from the Irish word 'sliabh' (a mountain) was the name > of a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in Ulster, famous in the early midiaeval > period as poets. Giolla Comhghaill O Sleibhin, chief bard of Ulster, was > associated with King Malachy in the northern resistance to Brian Boru; > other > Ulster poets of the name about the same time are mentioned by the Four > Masters, as well as one who was chief poet of Oriel in 1168. Though seldom > met > with in historical records after that time, they evidently did not sink > into > obscurity since as late as 1514 we find in the Ormond Deeds a judgement of > the Liberty Court of Tipperary in which Terrelagh O'Slevin, together with > an O'Donnell, is described as "pure Irish of the Irish nation" when charged > > with acquisition of lands contrary to statute; and again in the Survey of > Co. Fermanagh made in 1603 Munter Slevins are cited as "carbes" (coarbs) of > > Killtyerman in the barony of Lurg. > > > I myself have never been able to find the source of MacLysaght's > statement that the Sleibhins were Cenel Eoghain (or at least some of them > were). > But given the fact that they are M222 and match the O Cathains of > Londonderry Co. in Ireland it seems possible this is true. > > So what does that portend for a Patterson who is really a Lamont? > > It's extremely difficult not to think of the tale of the O Cathains > bride in this context. > > The clan Donald, Volume 1 > By Archibald Macdonald > > "The lady's portion took the form of 140 men out of every surname in > O'Cathain's territory, and the descendants of those who left representatives > are > known to this day in the Highlands as "tochradh nighean a' Chathanaich" - > the dowry of O'Cathain's daughter. > > The name of some of these immigrants have come down by tradition. Two > families, the Munroes, so called because they came from the innermost Roe > water > in the County of Derry, their name being originally O'Millan, and the > Roses of Kilravoxk, rose to territorial distinction in the North Highlands. > > The other names preserved by Hugh Macdonald are the Fearns, Dingwalls, > Beatons, Macphersons, Bulikes of Cathiness, while the MS of 1700 mentions, > in > addition to the foregoing, Dunbar, Maelinen, and the MacGilleglasses. > > Divided Gaels: Gaelic cultural identities in Scotland and Ireland, > c.1200-c.1650 > By Wilson McLeod > > Marriags of Irishwomen to Scottish chiefs were also arranged, notably the > celebrated union (c. 1300) between Aongus Oge Mac Domhnaill (+ c. 1329) and > > Aine, daugher of Cu Miaghe na nGall O Cathain of the Ciannachta in modern > cdo. Derry, for which a number of learned men were provided as dowry (known > > as 'tochardh nighean a' Chathanaich' in later Scottish tradition), whose > progeny went on to become some of the leading lights of late medieval > Gaelic > Scotland. > > Note in this material the surname Dunbar. There is a small group of > Dunbars who are M222 and do not match the great majority of other Dunbars in > the > databases. In phylogenetic trees of various kinds they routinely cluster > near the McLaughlins and Dohertys of Ireland. The McLaughlins of Ireland > (at least the Donegal variety) were also Cenel Eoghain. > > It's interesting to note that within the line of the High Kings of > Ireland the O Cathains were one of the closet relatives of the McLaughlins > of > Donegal, splitting off the main line in about 700 AD. The McLaughlins > appeared from the same line about two centuries later. Yet they do not > match in > DNA except for the fact that both are M222. > > The original tale of the O Cathain bride came from two sources, the 17th > century History of the McDonalds by Hugh McDonald and the Book of Clanranald > > of about the same date. > > > > John > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I found another family claiming a descent from one of the Irishmen who accompanied the O Cathain bride to Scotland: McQueen. I know I've seen at least a few McQueens who are M222. When I first started researching the McSweeneys I saw surname experts who claimed McQueen was a variant of Mac Suibhne. I doubt that has any validity in this context but who knows? Clergymen and Chiefs: A Genealogy of the MacQueen and MacFarlane Families By Alexander McQueen Quattlebaum The MacQueens are said to have come to Scotland from Ireland as part of the dowry of Margaret O'Cathain (Tochradh nighean a'Chathaqnaich) that was given to Angus Og. As part of the dowry it was the custom for the bride to be accompanied by some of the retainers of the father's territory. Conn Buidhe O'Cathain sent with his daughter 140 families from his extensive territories. There still exist other families in the Isles and on the mainland of the west of Scotland, as well as the MacQueens, who trace their origins to this source. Here are the original references from the History of the McDonalds and the Black Book of Clanranald written by the McDonald seanachies. Back Book of Clanrandald Angus Og, son of Angus Mor, son of Donald, son of Ranald, son of Somerled, the noble and renowned high chief of Innsigall. He married the daughter of Cuinnbhuighe O'Cathan. She was the mother of John, son of Angus, and it is with her came the unusual retinue from Irelande, viz., four-and-twenty sons of clan families, from whom sprang four-and-twenty families in Scotland. History of the MacDonalds Hugh MacDonald - Highland Papers 17th Century "He married Margaret, daughter of Guy O'Kaine in Ireland. She was the mother of Brian Balloch O'Neill, of whom descended the O'Neals of both the Clan Buys. The portion or tocher he had by her was seven score men out of every surname under O'Kain, viz.: the Munroes, so called, because they came from the Innermost Roe-water in the county of Derry, their names being formerly O'Millans, the Roses of Killraack, the Fairns, Dingwalls, Glasses, Beatons, so now called, but improperly, that being a French name, whereas they are Irish, of the tribe of O'Neals, and took the name first from following the name of Beda. Our highland shenakies say that Balfour Blebo, and these Beatons that came from France, went formerly from Ireland, but for this they have no grounds to go upon. The Macphersons, who are not the same with the Macphersons of Badenoch, but are of the O'Docharties in Ireland; the Butikes in Butikes in Caithness, of whom is the Laird of Tolingail, and many other surnames, which, for brevity, we pass over, many of whom had no succession." In my opinion this legend is so well documented in the highlands and so many repeated claims are made that men in Scotland in the retinue became entrenched in Scotland that it probably is true. What names are really connected to the migration though is open to question. This migration would have occurred sometime during the lifetime of Angus Age McDonald.ca. 1300. Judging from the DNA of the Dohertys and McLaughlins their DNA should still be recognizable today. Both had common ancestors going back to about that date. John

I haven't looked at those 111 marker results lately myself. There are 59 results showing now - a few more if you count the non or pre M222 sections. I looked at your closest matches in the 111 marker section. Interesting. Two Kanes and a Slevins. But then you've mentioned those matches before. I looked at the Kains/Cains in several different projects, including that of Barra McCain, who first identified the DNA of O Cathain of Ulster. On a different O Cathain site at FTDNA it seems there are some Cain/Kane variants that do not belong in the cluster. The Ulster O Cathains as identified by Barra always cluster nicely around several McHenry samples, a related Irish sept said to have split off the O Cathain line in about 1400 AD. The FTDNA site also has a McCloskey sample that matches nicely although it's only 25 markers. McCloseky is another sept said to descend from the Ulster O Cathains. The O Cathains were a Cenel Eoghain sept, said to descend from the line of the High Kings of Ireland prior to the O'Neills and MacLochlainns. How might the Slevins fit into this picture? According to MacLysaght, the surname Slevin/Sleven (O Sleibhin) was a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in Ulster; an old ecclesiastical family in Fermanagh. Some later settled in Westmeath in the 17th century. He adds more in More Irish Families. "More Irish Families" by Dr. Edward MacLysaght: (O) Slevin, Slavin: Both the forms Slevin and Slavin are found today in about equal numbers, chiefly in Ulster, 18 of the 25 births registered for the name in Matheson's test year being in that province. O Sleibhin, which is said to be derived from the Irish word 'sliabh' (a mountain) was the name of a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in Ulster, famous in the early midiaeval period as poets. Giolla Comhghaill O Sleibhin, chief bard of Ulster, was associated with King Malachy in the northern resistance to Brian Boru; other Ulster poets of the name about the same time are mentioned by the Four Masters, as well as one who was chief poet of Oriel in 1168. Though seldom met with in historical records after that time, they evidently did not sink into obscurity since as late as 1514 we find in the Ormond Deeds a judgement of the Liberty Court of Tipperary in which Terrelagh O'Slevin, together with an O'Donnell, is described as "pure Irish of the Irish nation" when charged with acquisition of lands contrary to statute; and again in the Survey of Co. Fermanagh made in 1603 Munter Slevins are cited as "carbes" (coarbs) of Killtyerman in the barony of Lurg. I myself have never been able to find the source of MacLysaght's statement that the Sleibhins were Cenel Eoghain (or at least some of them were). But given the fact that they are M222 and match the O Cathains of Londonderry Co. in Ireland it seems possible this is true. So what does that portend for a Patterson who is really a Lamont? It's extremely difficult not to think of the tale of the O Cathains bride in this context. The clan Donald, Volume 1 By Archibald Macdonald "The lady's portion took the form of 140 men out of every surname in O'Cathain's territory, and the descendants of those who left representatives are known to this day in the Highlands as "tochradh nighean a' Chathanaich" - the dowry of O'Cathain's daughter. The name of some of these immigrants have come down by tradition. Two families, the Munroes, so called because they came from the innermost Roe water in the County of Derry, their name being originally O'Millan, and the Roses of Kilravoxk, rose to territorial distinction in the North Highlands. The other names preserved by Hugh Macdonald are the Fearns, Dingwalls, Beatons, Macphersons, Bulikes of Cathiness, while the MS of 1700 mentions, in addition to the foregoing, Dunbar, Maelinen, and the MacGilleglasses. Divided Gaels: Gaelic cultural identities in Scotland and Ireland, c.1200-c.1650 By Wilson McLeod Marriags of Irishwomen to Scottish chiefs were also arranged, notably the celebrated union (c. 1300) between Aongus Oge Mac Domhnaill (+ c. 1329) and Aine, daugher of Cu Miaghe na nGall O Cathain of the Ciannachta in modern cdo. Derry, for which a number of learned men were provided as dowry (known as 'tochardh nighean a' Chathanaich' in later Scottish tradition), whose progeny went on to become some of the leading lights of late medieval Gaelic Scotland. Note in this material the surname Dunbar. There is a small group of Dunbars who are M222 and do not match the great majority of other Dunbars in the databases. In phylogenetic trees of various kinds they routinely cluster near the McLaughlins and Dohertys of Ireland. The McLaughlins of Ireland (at least the Donegal variety) were also Cenel Eoghain. It's interesting to note that within the line of the High Kings of Ireland the O Cathains were one of the closet relatives of the McLaughlins of Donegal, splitting off the main line in about 700 AD. The McLaughlins appeared from the same line about two centuries later. Yet they do not match in DNA except for the fact that both are M222. The original tale of the O Cathain bride came from two sources, the 17th century History of the McDonalds by Hugh McDonald and the Book of Clanranald of about the same date. John

I've put up a file at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2733445/M222111GD which shows the gd from modal of the 58 results for the M222 111-marker results that were showing this morning. It's shown separately for 37, 67, and 111 markers. To give some sort of feel to what to expect over 111 markers, the mean gd's from modal over 37,67 and 111 markers are No of markers Mean GD 37 5.88 67 7.61 111 12.98 There's a large variance though. By way of an example, the Ewing haplotype has gone from a relatively hefty gd of 8 over 37 markers to a gd of only 11 over 111 markers. This is in stark contrast to my own haplotype which has gone from a below-average 4 over 37 markers to an above average 16 over 111 markers. Sandy

I think there is some truth to all those Scottish legendary tales .my own DNA personal pages a collection of matches with with no recent apparent connections all lead to the stone of destiny and Scota sister of king tut . Don't take my word for check it for your self All roads leads to Egypt and the stone of destiny .My DNA matches Macintyres ,Gallagher ,Duncan and Clan Donnachaidhay are part of the Niall Legacy . Scotland and nova Scotia was named after Scota was the sister of king tut .you tube will show his (king tut) DNA was R1b1b2 =R1b M-269 Y-Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree of the Family tree has our DNA R1b1R2a. Gene

check out king Tuts DNA on you tube before start laughing Gene _ Tribe of Dan [Archive] - David Icke's Official Forums_ (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-88470.html) Scotia's descendents went on to become of the High kingsof Ireland at TARA ... by Princess Scotia, daughter of Akhenaten and half sister to Tutankhamen. ......http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/queen-elizabeth-ii-heir-great-bible-promises .... (1 Kings 8:18-40) The Bibleindicates that at one time the majority of ... www.davidicke.com › ... › _Illuminati / Secret Societies_ (http://www.google.com/url?url=http://www.davidicke.com/forum/archive/index.php/f-9.html&rct =j&sa=X&ei=TEwDTrzaD8fw0gH8k8H_DQ&ved=0CCIQ6QUoADAB&q=Was+Scota+One+of+the+R oyal+Daughters?+|+Christian+Assemblies+... The+king's+daughters+don't+have+a+name+in+the+Bible.+....+princess+-+said+to +be+PRINCESS+SCOTA+-+the+half+sister+of+Tutankhamun+-+SETTLED+IN+A+VALLEY+ON +THE+... www.cai.org/bible-studies/was-scota-one- royal-daughters+-+Cached+-&usg=AFQjCNGdD6xZENufMEhHAcmIZdbkIZEUkQ) -_Cached_ (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BQbqCoNShaoJ:www.davidicke.com/forum/archive/index.php/t -88470.html+Was+Scota+One+of+the+Royal+Daughters?+|+Christian+Assemblies+... +The+king's+daughters+don't+have+a+name+in+the+Bible.+....+princess+-+said+t o+be+PRINCESS+SCOTA+-+the+half+sister+of+Tutankhamun+-+SETTLED+IN+A+VALLEY+O N+THE+...+www.cai.org/bible-studies/was-scota-one-royal-daughters+-+Cached+- &cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com) -

I think there is some truth to all those Scottish legionary tales .my own DNA personal pages a collection of matches with with no recent apparent connections all lead to the stone of destiny and Scota sister of king tut . Don't take my word for check it for your self All roads leads to Egypt and the stone of destiny .My DNA matches Macintyres ,Gallagher ,Duncan and Clan Donnachaidhay are part of the Niall Legacy . Scotland and nova Scotia was named after Scota was the sister of king tut .you tube will show his (king tut) DNA was R1b1b2 =R1b M-269 Y-Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree of the Family tree has our DNA R1b1R2a. Gene

At the end of this message, I will give some evidence that there were McDill who went by the name of Dill. John Dill was the first recorded Dill in County Donegal Ireland. John Dill was recorded 1665 on the Hearth Money Roll. The name of Dill did not exist in Ireland before the 17th century. The name of Dill was brought to Ireland during the Ulster Plantation. Edward MacLysaght wrote The Surnames of Ireland. MacLysaght wrote that the Dill of Donegal had an English name. I think MacLysaght was wrong about the origin of these Dill. There are many Gaelic names in our haplogroup. On the early censuses, there was an isolated cluster of many Dill living in Kirkcudbrightshire (East Galloway) and Wigtownshire (West Galloway). There were also a lot of McDill living in Kirkcudbrightshire on the early censuses. I recently found William McDill and Matt Muir on the internet. William McDill has visited family in Scotland. Matt Muir lives in Scotland and has McDill/Dill ancestry. William McDill and Matt Muir tell me that McDill and Dill is the same name. The following is the evidence that I was able to get that show that there were McDill who went by the name of Dill. I appreciate if anyone can give me more evidence that there were McDill who went by Dill: (1) On page 66 of Parish Lists of Wigtownshire and Minnigaff 1684, there is listed John McDill and his wife, Margrett Coning. Their daughters are listed as Janet and Helen Dills. (2) William McDill gave me information on his ancestor, James McDill who was more commonly known as James Dill. The following is the first sentence from an article on page 4 of the Dumfries & Galloway Standard dated 22 Aug 1896. The article was titled The Fatality at the Caledonian Station: Yesterday and inquiry under the Fatal Accidents Inquiry Act was conducted before Colonel Shortt, honorary Sheriff Substitute and a jury in the Dumfries Sheriff Court, into the circumstances of the accident which occurred at the Caledonian goods yard on 11th Court, through which James McDill (more commonly known as James Dill), a shepherd in the employment of Mr David Steel, farmer, Auchenfranco, Lost his life.  Lawrence Dill

Has anyone checked the MS. 1467 site lately? The last line now reads mhic Neill glundubh ite translated as son of Neill glundubh of Iona. No more abbot. However this is still pretty strange because there is definitely something after the name Neill glundubh and there is no known connection with this Irish High King and Iona. The next name that might appear in the pedigree is Aeda Finlaith - but I can't read that into the MS. It's tempting to regard this as just another version of the Mac Suibhne pedigree in Ballymote and Lecan yet it doesn't quite fit, especially following the line buircce mhic Anradan which should contain the name Aeda (Aedh Athlaman) but does not as far as I can see. Instead the editors still read in that line "Flaithbertach mhic Connstantine" which makes no sense at all in terms of the Mac Suibhne pedigree which in that place has "Flaithbertach an trosdain." In my last correspondence with the editors it appears they have no solutions to the problem. They say they can't read it themselves and no one else can either. John

Iain is having problems posting to the list so he asked me to post this for him. John Now that there is an SNP for Irish Type III too, I wonder if some clever person has examined how far back the common ancestor of our two groups lived? Iain

Hi Jerry I found something in the Oxford DNB that looks interesting. It's an article about the abbots of Iona. In the article, reference is made to an abbot called Virgno, who seemingly was unrelated to Columba. The note goes on to say "...this (his non-kinship to Columba) is... supported by his absence from the eighth-century collection of genealogies of Ui Neill abbots of Iona (almost all from Cenel Conaill). Are you familiar with this collection? Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 01 June 2011 04:21 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] abbots, abbesses, and heirs Hi Sandy, I don't know of any reference work dedicated solely to the erenagh / ecclesiastical families, although we could sure use one. The following books provide good information about surnames in Ireland including the erenagh families:

Hi Sandy,   Thank you.  I think that collection is probably included in the Naoimhsheanchas tradition.  'Saint-seanchas' and 'holy-seanchas' are good translations of 'Naoimhsheanchas', and as you know Seanchas is the interwoven tradition of law, history, and genealogy.    The Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies published a comprehensive volume of Naoimhsheanchas within the last couple of decades, but I haven't had a chance to read it yet.   Le gach dea-ghui/, Best, Jerry   Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com From: Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [R-M222] abbots, abbesses, and heirs Hi Jerry I found something in the Oxford DNB that looks interesting. It's an article about the abbots of Iona. In the article, reference is made to an abbot called Virgno, who seemingly was unrelated to Columba. The note goes on to say "...this (his non-kinship to Columba) is... supported by his absence from the eighth-century collection of genealogies of Ui Neill abbots of Iona (almost all from Cenel Conaill). Are you familiar with this collection? Sandy   -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 01 June 2011 04:21 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] abbots, abbesses, and heirs Hi Sandy, I don't know of any reference work dedicated solely to the erenagh / ecclesiastical families, although we could sure use one.  The following books provide good information about surnames in Ireland including the erenagh families: R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 6/19/2011 12:45:02 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jerrykelly@att.net writes: Batar trí prímcheinéla i nHére, .i. Féini 7 Ulaith 7 Gáilni .i. Laigin. (Byrne, p. 106) There were three primary kinship-groups in Ireland, i.e., the Féini, the Ulaidh, and the Gáilni, i.e., the Laighin. Most of the Milesian pseudo-history appears to have been developed from the 7th to 12th centuries (with some small refinements later on, like getting agreement on Fe/inius Farsaid's exact distance from Adam, as we saw in an earlier post). As you know, the passage above directly contradicts the Milesian story. So it looks like it recalls an older, more reliable, tradition. Jerry, that's the same conclusion I was thinking about myself. Under the Milesian scheme all of those should have been one kinship group (ie, Milesian). It's possible the Milesian ancestor, Fenius farsaid, was invented to explain the existing name Feini. I found a copy of the Senchus Mor in Google books. I didn't spend a lot of time with it but it did claim that the Brehon laws were first written down in the time of St. Patrick. That seems a little unlikely to me. Especially since there is a version of the Milesian legends in the text. But that might have been a later insertion. I also ran across references to the berla Feini, which the editors describe as the oldest known form of Irish in Ireland. So old and archaic translators in the 1800s were baffled by many of the terms. And then I also saw a few references to the Feini as the "free farmers" of Ireland. I wasn't sure what to make of that. The statement seemed to broaden the Feini population to include more than just the Dal Cuinn yet there are references to the Feini of Tara. There doesn't seem to be much discussion of Feini out there. I found little in Google Books. John

<mailto:davidewing93@gmail.com>The following Mac/McAdam 111 upgrade results are in: Kits 88644, 88646, 119699, 65678, 180243. All are in the McAdams project at FTDNA, and two of them were posted here in David Ewing's preliminary M222 68-111 modal on 21 May 2011. Those two were 88646 and 180243. Does anybody know if David has changed the modal values since then? <mailto:davidewing93@gmail.com><mailto:davidewing93@gmail.com>

Hi John,   Apologies for delay in responding.  Related to this passage written by an Ui/ Ne/ill breitheamh in the 8th century: Batar trí prímcheinéla i nHére, .i. Féini 7 Ulaith 7 Gáilni .i. Laigin. (Byrne, p. 106) There were three primary kinship-groups in Ireland, i.e., the Féini, the Ulaidh, and the Gáilni, i.e., the Laighin.   Most of the Milesian pseudo-history appears to have been developed from the 7th to 12th centuries (with some small refinements later on, like getting agreement on Fe/inius Farsaid's exact distance from Adam, as we saw in an earlier post).  As you know, the passage above directly contradicts the Milesian story.  So it looks like it recalls an older, more reliable, tradition.   As you point out, it doesn't mention the Eoghanachta.  I suspect that's because it's supposed to represent ethnicity as it stood at the end of the prehistoric / pre-Christian period, and therefore directly before the rise of the Eoghanachta, whose own origin-story is self-consciously Christian (revelation of the site of Cashel by angels to the founder of the Eoghanachta dynasty, the Eoghanachta blessed by God, etc.)   Based on the role of the Corcu Loi/gde in early Eoghanachta stories and Munster history, I'm guessing that DNA may soon reveal that the Eoghanachta are a branch of the Corcu Loi/gde of the Sen-E/rna Muman ('Old E/rainn of Munster'), but that's only a guess.   Good point you made about the Laighin not being mentioned by Ptolemy.  But my impression is that most scholars agree with O'Rahilly that the Bairrche or Ui/ Bairrche (descendants of Bairrche and Brigid = 'Barr-Rigid') are the Irish branch of the Brigantes (again, 'Barr-Righ' as root).  The Bairrche eventually got a Laighin pedigree, but it doesn't look like the Bairrche were originally Laighin ('Broad-Spears').  Le gach dea-ghui/ Best, Jerry   Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 7:15 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went R222? - help from Ptolemy? In a message dated 6/12/2011 5:34:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  jerrykelly@att.net writes: The  thing that made me notice this at all was Byrne's discussion of the Fe/ni on  p. 106 of his book.  As he notes there, the following statement was  intended to describe Ireland in  prehistoric times.  It is the  beginning of an 8th century  A.D. saga preserved in a legal text  compiled by an Uí Néill breitheamh  ('jurist'): Batar trí  prímcheinéla i nHére, .i. Féini 7 Ulaith 7  Gáilni .i. Laigin.  (Byrne, p. 106) There were three primary  kinship-groups in  Ireland, i.e., the Féini, the Ulaidh, and the Gáilni, i.e.,  the  Laighin. That's an interesting look at the Feni of Irish history.  I wonder  if this passage predates the development of the Milesian legends?  I don't  think there's any version of that prior to the Book of Leinster (c. 1170 AD)  although Laud 610 contains a rudimentary version (c. 1000) which just  talks about the Gaedhil leaving in ships from the land of the Amazons.  Hard to say much about that though.  It's never been translated and the  editor's notes don't give much of a clue. The list above would seem to ignore the Eoghanachta.  They too cannot  be identified in Ptolemy's map.  I don't think the Lagin can be either  unless one equates them with the Brigantes. I hadn't thought about the derivation of Feni from Fenius farsaid of  Scythia but the Milesian legends definitely say that.  And in the Milesian  legends Fenius farsaid would have been the ancestor of all the above three  groups. As I recall but would have to check the root ven was common in many place  names in Celtic Gaul. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In the Inventory of Lamont papers http://www.archive.org/stream/scottishrecordso54scotuoft#page/n0/mode/2up a search for Orcanus reveals the following (pages 240-241) Inveryne Charters Declaration of the true Extraction off (sic) The McIlzegowies alias Lamont In a document entitled as above, dated 2 May 1661, and signed by Sir James Lamont, Sir James declares that "John M'Gilligowie in Castletoune in the Brae of Mar, and Donald M'Ilzegowie servitor to Sir David Ogilvie, sone to the Earl of Airlie, and all the name of M'Ilzeguies, ar my trew native kindlie people and kinsmen." He goes on to say that that they are descended from a son of one of his predecessors who was called by the nickname "Gillidow, that is, the blakboy, from quhom all his posteritie war callit the sones of the Gillidow, from quhich nickname they have gotten their sur- names, the quhich boy was son to Orcanus, Laird of Lamount, quha livet about the nyn hundredth zeir of oure Lord." Hector McKenchnie, in the book 'The Lamont Clan 1235-1935' says of this (pages 265-266): Some research had perhaps been made when arms were matriculated, and fabulous ancestors such as "Orcanus, Laird of Lamount quha livet about the nyn hundredth zeir of our Lord," were now ignored. So Mckechnie clearly believed that Orcanus was mere fantasy. A month or so back, I drew attention to the fact that in law, as established by a combination of royal and ecclesiastical authority during Iona's heyday, the words 'cain' and 'law' were equivalent, and 'Cain Adomnain' was the same as 'the Law of Adomnan'. This led to the possibility that Law = Cain Lagman = Cain Laumon McCain Lamont Kane The results for markers 68-111 are finally beginning to make sense out of the above. In this morning's update, looking at the 111 marker version, we find Paterson (~Lamont) Cain Kane with all of the following off-modal matches: DYS439 = 13 DYS570 = 18 DYS446 = 14+ DYS715 = 23 DYS513 = 14 DYS643 = 11 A quick glance at other haplotypes will establish that no surnames other than the above have (so far) turned up with these matches. The 11 at DYS643 is shared by a McNally and a Ryall, but that's about all in the 68-111 group. There are quite a few DYS439=13 in the 1-67 group, and DYS570=18 is quite common too. But Cain and variants and Paterson (~Lamont) seem to stand out clearly. So I think my speculations of a month or two ago are proving quite close to the truth. But who was Orcanus? Sandy

In a message dated 6/13/2011 3:06:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dna-r1b1c7-request@rootsweb.com writes: On the map showing "La Tene chariot burials" the northernmost marker indicates a burial just west of Edinburgh. This is what I came up with, as prove that my ancestors Ashley/cooper/ Duncan and many more matches are found in Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland.Of course genetic distance can be expected many centuries have past the Ashley became intermingled with the coopers and many of the clans as listed on my personal DNA page many not listed as yet but are R M222 Ashley/Gallagher twenty five marker match .Google key words Gallagher descended from Niall .Google key words Duncan same thing Niall pops up. Gene Ashley _Re: John ASHLEY & Lady Jane COOPER (17th century) - Ashley ..._ (http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.ashley/874.2/mb.ashx) Jun 7, 2005 ... Re: John ASHLEY & Lady Jane COOPER(17th century)/Ashley family history & genealogy message ...by a Miss Massey of Edinburgh, Scotland. ... boards.ancestry.com/surnames.ashley/874.2/mb.ashx - ► Johnne Duncan b. abt.1589 Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland, married Catharine Pollok, Ja. 19, 1615, In Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland. She was b. abt. 1593,in Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland Johnne Duncan chrn., July 8,1618,in Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland. James Duncan b. March 29, 1629, Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland James Duncan b. March 29,1629,in Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland. MarriedIssobell Niddrie Dec. 12,1654,In South Leith, Midlothian ,Scotland, b. Feb. 12,1632, St. Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland. Parents of John of Rockburne Cooper Father _John Cooper_ (http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/cooper_john/john-cooper-b.1568-d.1594-1) b. 1568 Edinburgh, Midlothian, , Scotland d. 17 Feb 1594 Little Harwood, Buckinghamshire, , England Mother _Martha Skutt_ (http://www.familypursuit.com/genealogy/skutt_martha/martha-skutt-b.1550-d.1610-2) b. 1550 Drew, Somerset, , England d. 1610 ENGLAND (javascript:gopage('h t t p s : / / w w w . f a m i l y p u r s u i t . c o m / R e g i s t r a t i o n . S h o w C o m m u n i t y R e g i s t r a t i o n ? a = s d i s c u s s i o n s & i d = 3 9 9 8 6 2 ');) The following people contributed information to this record.

In a message dated 6/12/2011 5:34:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jerrykelly@att.net writes: The thing that made me notice this at all was Byrne's discussion of the Fe/ni on p. 106 of his book. As he notes there, the following statement was intended to describe Ireland in prehistoric times. It is the beginning of an 8th century A.D. saga preserved in a legal text compiled by an Uí Néill breitheamh ('jurist'): Batar trí prímcheinéla i nHére, .i. Féini 7 Ulaith 7 Gáilni .i. Laigin. (Byrne, p. 106) There were three primary kinship-groups in Ireland, i.e., the Féini, the Ulaidh, and the Gáilni, i.e., the Laighin. That's an interesting look at the Feni of Irish history. I wonder if this passage predates the development of the Milesian legends? I don't think there's any version of that prior to the Book of Leinster (c. 1170 AD) although Laud 610 contains a rudimentary version (c. 1000) which just talks about the Gaedhil leaving in ships from the land of the Amazons. Hard to say much about that though. It's never been translated and the editor's notes don't give much of a clue. The list above would seem to ignore the Eoghanachta. They too cannot be identified in Ptolemy's map. I don't think the Lagin can be either unless one equates them with the Brigantes. I hadn't thought about the derivation of Feni from Fenius farsaid of Scythia but the Milesian legends definitely say that. And in the Milesian legends Fenius farsaid would have been the ancestor of all the above three groups. As I recall but would have to check the root ven was common in many place names in Celtic Gaul. John

Hi John, Apologies for the delay in following up, and thank you for your questions. When speaking about the Fe/ini, the Gaeil made no assumption of any descent from Fionn mac Cumhail or the Fianna ('Fenians'). Instead, in the historic period, the Fe/ini were believed to descend from Fe/inius Farsaid. As you know, the top of a tribe's pre-Christian Irish genealogy is often/ṡometimes the ancestor-god for that tribe. When we look at the top of the "official genealogy" for all the free-tribes of the Gaeil (it was unlawful to record the genealogies of the unfree tribes), we find Adam and Eve. Of course, that's the Christian "hat" for the genealogy. If we take off that hat from Adam down to Baat (Boath or Baath in the Bible) in Seathru/n Ce/itinn's (Keating's) Genealogies, or in Cu/ Choigcr/che O/ Cle/irigh's Book of Genealogies (many thanks for putting that on-line, by the way), or in Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh's Book of Genealogies, the first of the native tradition we run into is Fe/inius Farsaid "son of Baath." Fe/inius Farsaid is a few more generations down the line in Rawlinson B.502, perhaps indicating a lower level of control over the genealogies by the Ui/ Ne/ill at the time of the writing of Rawlinson B.502, 4 centuries earlier. Also in Rawlinson, we see the old genitive form of his name, Fo/eniusa Farsaid. So (according to these texts), all the free tribes (including Da/l Chuinn) descend from Fe/inius Farsaid. Various medieval and early modern texts have a lot to say about him, his art, his travels in the Mideast, his "bringing" of the Gaelic language from the Tower of Nimrod, etc. However, in footnote f on p. 85 of Early Irish History and Mythology, O'Rahilly writes: "... Be/rla Fe/ne, 'the language of the Fe/ne', suggested the creation of an eponymous Fe/inius Farsaid, who was supposed to have invented it..." In other words, O'Rahilly believed that Fe/inius Farsaid was not part of the original tradition, either as ancestor-god or man. Is it possible that the name of the original ancestor-god of the Fe/ini isn't preserved? Perhaps. But, if so, that's okay. The important thing is that the Fe/ini existed (exist) as a people, without regard to the name of their original ancestor-god or hero. Francis John Byrne points out in Irish Kings and High-Kings that "the usual word for the free population in the laws is Fe/ni, and the traditional law itself is called fe/nechas. The normal word elsewhere for the Irish is Goi/dil 'the Gaels' - a borrowing from the Welsh Gwyddyl, suggesting that the Irish had no common word for themselves until they came into contact with foreigners." So who were the Fe/ni before the Irish developed a common word for all of themselves? The word apparently didn't originally apply to all Irish, just some of them, or it would have been used instead of the exonyms Goi/dil, Scotti, and Ui/ Mi/leadh. So who did it apply to in its earliest conception? In the manuscript called Rawlinson B.502, we find an 8th Century version of the tale Tairired na nDeissi ('Expulsion of the Déisi') which tells of various encounters of the Déisi with the Laighin, Fothairt, Uí Bhairrche, Eoghanachta, Corcu Laoidhe, Osraige, and others. All of these were eventually claimed as branches of the Féini, but at the end of the tale, I noticed this past semester that the separate identity of the Fe/ini is still maintained: Is inund aimsirhi lotar na Deisse for Gabruan 7 Fene for Fid Mar 7 Fothairt for Gabruan sair. (Meyer, Kuno. "The Expulsion of the Dessi", an article in the magazine Y Cymmrodor. London: Society of Cymmrodorion, Volume XIV, 1901) And in this time, the Déisi went over Gabruan and the Féini went over Fid Már and the Fothairt went over Gabruan eastwards. The thing that made me notice this at all was Byrne's discussion of the Fe/ni on p. 106 of his book. As he notes there, the following statement was intended to describe Ireland in prehistoric times. It is the beginning of an 8th century A.D. saga preserved in a legal text compiled by an Uí Néill breitheamh ('jurist'): Batar trí prímcheinéla i nHére, .i. Féini 7 Ulaith 7 Gáilni .i. Laigin. (Byrne, p. 106) There were three primary kinship-groups in Ireland, i.e., the Féini, the Ulaidh, and the Gáilni, i.e., the Laighin. As we see, at the time of this manuscript, the Ulaidh and Laighin were still very much distinct from the Féini. They had relatively recently lost the plain of Meath and the kingship of Tara to the Uí Néill, a branch of the Da/l Chuinn or Connachta. Therefore, as Byrne points out, it's clear that the earliest uses of Féini, as here seen even in an 8th century A.D. Uí Néill context, are intended to mean the Da/l Chuinn (Connachta) and their branch called Uí Néill. So, to sum up. the Fe/ni were one of the most important peoples of Ireland at the dawn of Irish history. They are the direct ancestors of the Da/l Chuinn and Ui/ Ne/ill. Some have called attention to the possibility that the name of the Fe/ini developed from the name of the Gaulish Veneti of the Armorican Peninsula. Accordingly, if Fe/ni might possibly come from Veneti, I'm guessing that it could also possibly come from Veniconi / Venicnii, an obviously Q-Celtic word. But here we'd need an expert on the development of Archaic Irish to advise us. You noted that the root-word Conn (Da/l Chuinn, Connachta) might possibly be seen in the word Veniconi. Perhaps you're right. Similarly, it's generally agreed that the Irish words gom ('fool') and amada/n ('fool') both developed from different parts of the Indo-European root-word *gemadan, which is also the ancestor of the English word 'mad'. Therefore, I think it's possible that both "Fe/ni" and "Conn" developed from Veniconi. (Although, again, we'd need an expert to advise us.) Lastly, you mentioned that it might be possible to see the word Conn in the word Venicnii. I think you're right. For a very long time, the pronunciation rule in Irish has been to stick an Indo-European schwa in between any two consonants. Therefore, Venicnii could very well be pronounced Veniconii (with stress on the first syllable), and Veniconii could very well be spelled Venicnii without much damage to its pronunciation. A parallel would be the the pronunciation of the name of the goddess Brighid, roots of which are Barr-Righid (often translated as 'High-Queen') and whose tribe (or the tribe who claimed descent from her) are the Ui/ Bairrche. It's odd that O'Rahilly noted the Venikones in north Britain but ignored their obvious potential relationship to the Venicnii in northwest Ireland. This seems to be because he assumed (without much evidence) that Venikones and its variations were "merely bad corruptions" of Verturiones." (O'Rahilly, p. 382, footnote 2) Too bad he went that route. He was a master linguist and could have enlightened on all these points. Go raibh se/ seo cabhrach. / Hope this is helpful. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com ________________________________ From: "Lochlan@aol.com" <Lochlan@aol.com> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, June 8, 2011 6:39:00 PM Subject: Re: [R-M222] Which Way Went R222? - help from Ptolemy? In a message dated 6/8/2011 11:46:23 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jerrykelly@att.net writes: So, we can discard any of those as the original name of any Celtic tribe who might have invaded. Da/l Chuinn isn't on Ptolemy's map, but the Da/l Chuinn are a branch of another people called the Fe/ini. Earlier spellings - Fe/ni, Fe/ne, etc. The etymological affinity of the name "Fe/ni" to the name of the Veneti, the tragic Gaulish tribe of Armorica, has long attracted attention. Jerry, a couple of questions. What establishes the Dal Cuinn as a branch of the Feni? Are we talking here of the Fenians of Irish mythology? Is there any dating for this cycle of Irish mythology? <But if we go back earlier, we find in 8th century documents that a distinction was made between the original Fe/ini and all the other Fe/ini-come-latelies. It appears that the original Fe/ini, as far as we can tell from the earliest tales and law-texts, consisted solely of the Da/l Chuinn, i.e., the Connachta and the Ui/ Ne/ill. What eighth century document is this? Is this what you're referring to in the firstJoh paragraph quoted? <The Vennicni sojourn on the west coast, and then, in order, the Rhobogdi towards the east. Is there anything there that could possibly, etymologically, develop into Fe/ni over time? Wish I were expert at the development of Common Celtic into P-Celtic and Q-Celtic, but I think there's an inviting possibility right there which has been overlooked. If you're talking about the Venicnii here we've discussed that as a possibility before. I always thought it odd that O'Rahilly ignored this name in his discussion of Ptolemy's map. You also have a similar name in lowland Scotland (Venicones). I'm open to the idea that the Dal Cuinn had an earlier tribal name in Ireland. Although it is possible to see the root Conn in the Venicone tribal name. Perhaps even in Venicnii if the name was corrupted. O'Rahilly's analysis of the Milesian scheme gets too much attention in my opinion. He only used it to attempt to show how the myth makers used traditional legendary material to stitch together a unified history of Ireland. He clearly did not take it seriously beyond that, mainly demonstrating that the Fir Bolg (Belgae) were in Ireland long before many other tribal groups. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message