Whoops. I attached the wrong file. I'll correct it. Sandy

I've put up a file at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2733445/DYS446%3D15.csv It contains 56 x 56 = 3136 comparisons of GD and off-modal matches for 56 111-marker M222 haplotypes. The columns are A Surname B Kit number C Surname D Kit number E GD F Number of off-modal matches. The data is sorted on column A, then on column E. So for each haplotypes, it gives a comparison with all other haplotypes (including itself). Sandy

David, An interesting grouping seems to be forming: Grierson/Milligan/McAdam/Mitchell/Reilly/McKenzie/O'Brien/Carey/McGill I have absolutely no knowledge of any kinship links between these surnames, but you may have some thoughts. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of J David Grierson Sent: 26 June 2011 07:27 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Milligan Sandy et al, I'm still in the throes of writing up my next newsletter for our website, but have now mounted the latest Chart, see: http://www.shade.id.au/Grierson/GriersonDNA.htm

[I think you need to expand your selection of samples. Look at Barra's web site and the FTDNA Cain project run by Rory O'Cain.] I already have. I've included all 111-marker results released to date. [Most of these are not yet 111 marker groups so the comparisons are only valid through DYS 570 = 18. I have 27 Cains/Kanes/O'Kanes/ etc with this value.] That's my point, except that most of them also have DYS439=13. But only two off-modal matches doesn't convince me. [For the other markers in the 68-111 marker set, I've only got two Cain samples, both from the M222 project. Both have DYS446 = 14 or higher. One Cain matches the other markers above (715, 513, 643). The Slavens ample matches all three. I don't think you have enough samples to known anything for sure about how many Cains/O Cathains will eventually match these markers.] The Slavens sample doesn't match any of those three. You're right though, I don't know everything for sure. But what I do know for sure is that 1.There are 25 haplotypes included in the Ulster Heritage O'Cathain grouping. 2.Twelve of them are Cain or variants thereof. 3.Only 1 Cain has results for markers 68-111. 4.Three other surnames have results for 68-111 (not all complete though). 5.None of Devenny,McHenry or Slavens (the three other surnames) have the DYS715,513,641 matches. 6.I have all three. 7.One Kane from the Cain site (as opposed to the McCain site) also has the matches at DYS715,513,641. You may not yet be convinced, but I am. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 26 June 2011 01:42 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS In a message dated 6/25/2011 3:37:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: The Cain and Kane in the M222 project plus my haplotype all have DYS439=13 DYS570=18 DYS446=14+ DYS715=23 DYS513=14 DYS643=11 Those are the same off modal markers I'm showing for the O Cathains ol Barra McCain . Plus 389ii = 30. f<In the O'Cathain group of Ulster Heritage, only a solitary Cain has the above, with Devenny, McHenry and Slavin not matching any of the 68-111 marker ones. Slaven though, matches two other off-modal markers with me in the 68-111 marker group. I think you need to expand your selection of samples. Look at Barra's web site and the FTDNA Cain project run by Rory O'Cain. Most of these are not yet 111 marker groups so the comparisons are only valid through DYS 570 = 18. I have 27 Cains/Kanes/O'Kanes/ etc with this value. For the other markers in the 68-111 marker set, I've only got two Cain samples, both from the M222 project. Both have DYS446 = 14 or higher. One Cain matches the other markers above (715, 513, 643). The Slavens ample matches all three. I don't think you have enough samples to known anything for sure about how many Cains/O Cathains will eventually match these markers. I said previously I wasn't sure if some of the Cain/Kane samples matched the O Cathain group of Barra McCain. That's because the O Cathain modal is really pretty skimpy, with three off modal markers in the first 67. A lot of the samples (14) miss at 439 =13. These samples contain lots of surname variants - Cain, Kane, O'Kane, McCann, Keane,. One sample McKean misses all the modal markers. I'm sure this one cannot be a valid member of the cluster. The surname variants among those who do match the modal exactly are the same. In establishing this DNA modal Barra did a lot of recruiting in the Londonderry Co. area, the original stronghold of the Ulster O Cathains. I just looked at Barra's Cain site. Almost all of the M222 Cains are clustered in the O Cathain section with a few in an unclustered group. _http://mccaindna.ulsterheritage.com/_ (http://mccaindna.ulsterheritage.com/) The only 111 marker results in the group are for kit 69577 which is also in the M222 group. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

There's quite an impressive match between a Milligan and a Grierson over 111 markers, a gd of 13 with 7 off-modal matches. Here are a few other matches that caught the eye : Clarkson/Patterson, a gd of 9 with 10 off-modal matches. McCombs/McKee, a gd of 7 with 4 off-modal matches. O'Brien/Reilly, a gd of 6 with 7 off-modal matches. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 26 June 2011 05:44 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] Milligan We just had another Milligan join the project at 111 markers. His closest two matches at 111 markers are two other Milligans (Kits 12068, 135550). Genetic distance is reported at 16 and 17. His most distant match at that level is a Burns (Kit 135550) at 40 GD.

We just had another Milligan join the project at 111 markers. His closest two matches at 111 markers are two other Milligans (Kits 12068, 135550). Genetic distance is reported at 16 and 17. His most distant match at that level is a Burns (Kit 135550) at 40 GD. I haven't examined these Milligan samples but I assume they are related. After that I don't know. The next closest matches are: Coyne (18) Qujinn (18) Then Megonnigil (19) McKenzie (19) Leonard (20) Mc Gonigle (20) Grierson (21) John

Hi Sandy, Wish I knew enough to come up with my own theories, but I can only report what the experts on Seanchas have had to say for the last long while. But sure do appreciate the complement. Meanwhile, Cáin Adomnáin is definitely, literally, The Law of Adomnán, as you mention. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 1:44 PM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Ó Catháin vs. Law The Cain Adomnain was known as the Law of Adomnan. There are at least 4 different (independent) surname origins for the surname Cain. One of them was an anglicisation of the misspelling of O'Cathain. Chuckle. You can theorise as much as you like about McCann being an anglicisation of a misspelling of Mac Cana (and thus a different derivation), but you can't escape the fact that the M222 Cain/Kane/McCan/McCann all have very similar DNA. Methinks you have too much regard for textbooks. Take care and don't study too hard. Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 25 June 2011 18:11 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Ó Catháin vs. Law Hi Sandy, Aha! Now I understand what you mean. But the anglicization "Cain" is a misspelling of Ó Catháin ('Grandson of Little Battle'). It only looks like the Irish word cáin ('law' or, in Modern Irish, 'tax') when it's misspelled this way. Meanwhile, McCann is an anglicization / misspelling of Mac Cana - 'Son of Wolf Cub'. (Wolves were hugely admired in Gaelic society yielding the surnames Ó Faoláin, Ó Coileáin, Ó Faolchon, etc.) Again, no relationship to the English word 'law'. R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 6/25/2011 3:37:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: The Cain and Kane in the M222 project plus my haplotype all have DYS439=13 DYS570=18 DYS446=14+ DYS715=23 DYS513=14 DYS643=11 Those are the same off modal markers I'm showing for the O Cathains ol Barra McCain . Plus 389ii = 30. f<In the O'Cathain group of Ulster Heritage, only a solitary Cain has the above, with Devenny, McHenry and Slavin not matching any of the 68-111 marker ones. Slaven though, matches two other off-modal markers with me in the 68-111 marker group. I think you need to expand your selection of samples. Look at Barra's web site and the FTDNA Cain project run by Rory O'Cain. Most of these are not yet 111 marker groups so the comparisons are only valid through DYS 570 = 18. I have 27 Cains/Kanes/O'Kanes/ etc with this value. For the other markers in the 68-111 marker set, I've only got two Cain samples, both from the M222 project. Both have DYS446 = 14 or higher. One Cain matches the other markers above (715, 513, 643). The Slavens ample matches all three. I don't think you have enough samples to known anything for sure about how many Cains/O Cathains will eventually match these markers. I said previously I wasn't sure if some of the Cain/Kane samples matched the O Cathain group of Barra McCain. That's because the O Cathain modal is really pretty skimpy, with three off modal markers in the first 67. A lot of the samples (14) miss at 439 =13. These samples contain lots of surname variants - Cain, Kane, O'Kane, McCann, Keane,. One sample McKean misses all the modal markers. I'm sure this one cannot be a valid member of the cluster. The surname variants among those who do match the modal exactly are the same. In establishing this DNA modal Barra did a lot of recruiting in the Londonderry Co. area, the original stronghold of the Ulster O Cathains. I just looked at Barra's Cain site. Almost all of the M222 Cains are clustered in the O Cathain section with a few in an unclustered group. _http://mccaindna.ulsterheritage.com/_ (http://mccaindna.ulsterheritage.com/) The only 111 marker results in the group are for kit 69577 which is also in the M222 group. John

In a message dated 6/25/2011 2:02:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cain@umich.edu writes: I internet searched (Google) on Cooey-na-Gall O'Cathain and found, for what it is worth, the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O'Cahan wherein is says the translation is "Cooey-na-Gall" means "Terror of the Stranger." The name in Irish is Con muighe na nGall. This O Cathain in the O'Clery genealogies is the son of Magnusa chatha duin, or Manus of the battle of Downpatrick, sl. 1260. 487. (col. a) Domnall ballach m Ruaidri m Maghnusa m Donnchada' an einigh m Seaain m Aibhne m Diarmada m Con mhuighe m Diarmada m Con muighe na nGall m Magnusa chatha duin m Ruaidri m Domhnaill m Eachmharcaigh m Raghnaill m Iomhair m Gilla Crist m Con cionaedh m Diermada m Cathusaigh m Cathain (a quo .h. Chathain) m Drugain m Concobhair m Fergail m Maile duin m Maile fithrigh m Aedha uaiiriodhnaigh m Domnaill ilcealccaigh m Muircertaigh m Muirethaigh m Eogain m Neill noigiallaigh. For the McHenrys see this paragraph in O'Clery: 491. (col. c) Gofraid m Giolla padraicc m Semais m Giolla patraic m Concobair m Diarmada m Enri (o tat clann Enri) m Diarmada m Con muige na nGall m Magnusa catha duin The first McHenry would have been Dermot (Diarmada) son of Henry (Enri). He was the great-grandson of the same Conmuighe na nGall. That would place him sometime c. 1400-1450. John

In a message dated 6/25/2011 3:37:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time, alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com writes: So I'm still batting on the side of Cain = Law Cain = Lagman Kane Laumon McCann Lamont Both descended from Orcanus. There is a little problem with that analysis if you are talking about the Irish O Cathains of Ulster. If you're talking about other Cains than it's immaterial. But the root of O Cathain is cath, or battle, and the name is properly anglicised O Cahane. Cain = law is a different word. John

Hi Charles Good to hear from you again. I am aware of the rock-solid descent of McHenry from O'Cathain. The surname Cain is also, I think, linked to O'Cathain, but as far as I can recall, Barra McCain has identified four separate and independent surname origins. I think I may have discovered a 5th. I've just compared your haplotype with that of McHenry 27077. With 102 markers known, there are 4 off-modal matches and a gd of 17. To me that suggests a connection, but probably quite far back. The outstanding 9 McHenry markers should be released soon. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain Sent: 25 June 2011 14:54 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS As one of the "Cain/Kanes" mentioned by Sandy (regarding off-modal matches in the trans-67 markers), let me make several comments: 1.The O'Kane history is recounted in some detail in a book by T.M. Mullin and J.E. Mullan titled "The Ulster Clans." 2. At least one origin of the McHenry surname is dated in this book to the early 1400s. Henry O'Cathain was the son of Dermot who died in 1428. Dermot's father was Cooey Na Gaal O'Cathain (have to like that name!). 3. Because of this reference, and because the largest non-Cain group of matches I find on FTDNA are the McHenrys, I am unsure of Sandy's hypothesis regarding a divorce between the McHenrys and O'Kanes. Whatever you find Sandy, I am really interested. 4. And finally, since my first North American ancestor arrived in 1740, I am a little rusty in the old language. So, how do you pronounce "O'Cathain?" Is the "th" silent? Charles Cain Quoting Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com>: > I think they have 2 off-modal matches out of 111 markers. That doesn't > suggest that they are close kin. All M222 are of course kin, it's just a > question of how far back. > > I don't yet have a model for 111-markers, so you are correct that I don't > have a time-scale. However, I do have a model for 67 marker haplotypes so > I'll have a look and post. > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Howard > Sent: 25 June 2011 13:00 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS > > Sandy, > You have no comparison time scale to say that they are no longer obvious > kin. > The haplotypes might be distinctly different in the region above 37 markers, > but they could still be related within the genealogical time scale. > - Bye from Bill Howard > ' > On Jun 25, 2011, at 3:11 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > >> What I find interesting is that with the extension to 111-markers, the >> McHenrys and the Cains & variants are no longer obvious kin. >> > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The Cain Adomnain was known as the Law of Adomnan. There are at least 4 different (independent) surname origins for the surname Cain. One of them was an anglicisation of the misspelling of O'Cathain. Chuckle. You can theorise as much as you like about McCann being an anglicisation of a misspelling of Mac Cana (and thus a different derivation), but you can't escape the fact that the M222 Cain/Kane/McCan/McCann all have very similar DNA. Methinks you have too much regard for textbooks. Take care and don't study too hard. Best Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Kelly Sent: 25 June 2011 18:11 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] Ó Catháin vs. Law Hi Sandy, Aha! Now I understand what you mean. But the anglicization "Cain" is a misspelling of Ó Catháin ('Grandson of Little Battle'). It only looks like the Irish word cáin ('law' or, in Modern Irish, 'tax') when it's misspelled this way. Meanwhile, McCann is an anglicization / misspelling of Mac Cana - 'Son of Wolf Cub'. (Wolves were hugely admired in Gaelic society yielding the surnames Ó Faoláin, Ó Coileáin, Ó Faolchon, etc.) Again, no relationship to the English word 'law'.

Jerry A sound file pronouncing O'Cathain would be helpful. From readings, my guess is that the evolution into English went something like: O'Cathain....O'Cahan....O'Kane....O'Cain....Cain Family history says my ancestor "Mikel O'Cain" came from Ireland in 1740 to New Jersey. My thinking on an O'Cathain origin of "Cain" comes from DNA matches to O'Cathains in Ulster (Derry) and DNA matches to the McHenry surname, historically related to the O'Cathains. It would be interesting to be convinced otherwise (maybe Sandy can help), but that's my working hypothesis. A link to Scotland would be interesting. I also assume the evolution of the name into English came after the Plantation in 1600 when the clan must have fallen on very hard times. It was 140 years from the Plantation to immigration to New Jersey. I internet searched (Google) on Cooey-na-Gall O'Cathain and found, for what it is worth, the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O'Cahan wherein is says the translation is "Cooey-na-Gall" means "Terror of the Stranger." I had assumed from other readings that it meant something more like "under influence of foreigners" or something similar. Apparently the O'Cathains had been involved in reformation of the Irish church along more continental lines. The link http://ulsterman3.tripod.com/Tomb_Dungiven.htm suggests the O'Cathain in question had a daughter who married a " MacDonald Lord of the Isles" (discussed earlier here?) which further indicates foreign influences. So I assume you can now give us what is probably the correct Irish spelling? Thanks for your interest. Charles Quoting Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net>: > A Chathail a chara / Hi Charles, > > > > In Ó Catháin, the th is pronounced as an h. In most dialects á is > pronounced like aw. But in Ulster, it's usually ah (although there is one > dialect variation I know of). > > > > The result is that Catháin is pronounced as 2 syllables rather than one, > with even stress across the two syllables. (Originally stress is on the > first syllable in Ulster Irish but the accent mark on the a in the second > syllable evens out the stress.) > > > > Would you have the Irish spelling on Cooey Na Gaal? Sorry to say that > this anglicization makes it impossible to identify his real name. > > > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > > Jerry > > > > Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press > > www.druidpress.com > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain > Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 9:54 AM > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS > > > > > > As one of the "Cain/Kanes" mentioned by Sandy (regarding off-modal matches > in the trans-67 markers), let me make several comments: > > > > 1.The O'Kane history is recounted in some detail in a book by T.M. > > Mullin and J.E. Mullan titled "The Ulster Clans." > > > > > > 2. At least one origin of the McHenry surname is dated in this book to the > early 1400s. Henry O'Cathain was the son of Dermot who died in 1428. > Dermot's father was Cooey Na Gaal O'Cathain (have to like that name!). > > > > > > 3. Because of this reference, and because the largest non-Cain group of > matches I find on FTDNA are the McHenrys, I am unsure of Sandy's hypothesis > regarding a divorce between the McHenrys and O'Kanes. > > Whatever you find Sandy, I am really interested. > > > > 4. And finally, since my first North American ancestor arrived in 1740, I am > a little rusty in the old language. So, how do you pronounce "O'Cathain?" Is > the "th" silent? > > > > Charles Cain > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Here are the 67-marker figures for Cain 69577 and McHenry 27077 No of Obs F(T<=5) F(T<=10) F(T<=15) F(T<=20) F(T<=25) F(T<=30) 6,897 .000 .005 .050 .153 .377 .598 I've never been able to figure out what the genealogical time scale is, but I would imagine few people are able to get back much further than 15 generations. So yes, there is about a 5% chance that they may be related within the last 15 generations, based on 67-marker results. That rises to about 15% if you use 20 generations as the genealogical time scale. Once more 111-marker results are available, I'll extend my website to include 111-marker analysis. But even without that, 111-marker results suggest that Cain/McHenry are less closely related than previously thought. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Howard Sent: 25 June 2011 13:00 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS Sandy, You have no comparison time scale to say that they are no longer obvious kin. The haplotypes might be distinctly different in the region above 37 markers, but they could still be related within the genealogical time scale. - Bye from Bill Howard ' On Jun 25, 2011, at 3:11 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > What I find interesting is that with the extension to 111-markers, the > McHenrys and the Cains & variants are no longer obvious kin. > > The Cain and Kane in the M222 project plus my haplotype all have > > DYS439=13 > DYS570=18 > DYS446=14+ > DYS715=23 > DYS513=14 > DYS643=11 > > The DYS643=11 looks particularly rare, and if you have a look at L21+ you'll > see that it shows very little dispersion from 10, which is overwhelmingly > modal in both M222 and L21. > > In the O'Cathain group of Ulster Heritage, only a solitary Cain has the > above, with Devenny, McHenry and Slavin not matching any of the 68-111 > marker ones. Slaven though, matches two other off-modal markers with me in > the 68-111 marker group. > > So to me, it looks like the Cain/Kane/McCann grouping in Barry's group are > going to end up distinctly different to all other surnames, yet they match > me on some unusual markers. > > So I'm still batting on the side of > > Cain = Law > > Cain = Lagman > Kane Laumon > McCann Lamont > > Both descended from Orcanus. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com > Sent: 25 June 2011 02:49 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS > > I haven't looked at those 111 marker results lately myself. There are 59 > results showing now - a few more if you count the non or pre M222 > sections. > > I looked at your closest matches in the 111 marker section. > Interesting. Two Kanes and a Slevins. But then you've mentioned those > matches > before. I looked at the Kains/Cains in several different projects, > including > that of Barra McCain, who first identified the DNA of O Cathain of Ulster. > > On a different O Cathain site at FTDNA it seems there are some Cain/Kane > variants that do not belong in the cluster. The Ulster O Cathains as > identified by Barra always cluster nicely around several McHenry samples, a > related > Irish sept said to have split off the O Cathain line in about 1400 AD. > The FTDNA site also has a McCloskey sample that matches nicely although > it's > only 25 markers. McCloseky is another sept said to descend from the Ulster > > O Cathains. > > The O Cathains were a Cenel Eoghain sept, said to descend from the line of > the High Kings of Ireland prior to the O'Neills and MacLochlainns. How > might the Slevins fit into this picture? According to MacLysaght, the > surname Slevin/Sleven (O Sleibhin) was a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in > Ulster; > an old ecclesiastical family in Fermanagh. Some later settled in Westmeath > > in the 17th century. > > He adds more in More Irish Families. > > "More Irish Families" by Dr. Edward MacLysaght: > > (O) Slevin, Slavin: Both the forms Slevin and Slavin are found today in > about equal numbers, chiefly in Ulster, 18 of the 25 births registered for > the > name in Matheson's test year being in that province. O Sleibhin, which is > said to be derived from the Irish word 'sliabh' (a mountain) was the name > of a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in Ulster, famous in the early midiaeval > period as poets. Giolla Comhghaill O Sleibhin, chief bard of Ulster, was > associated with King Malachy in the northern resistance to Brian Boru; > other > Ulster poets of the name about the same time are mentioned by the Four > Masters, as well as one who was chief poet of Oriel in 1168. Though seldom > met > with in historical records after that time, they evidently did not sink > into > obscurity since as late as 1514 we find in the Ormond Deeds a judgement of > the Liberty Court of Tipperary in which Terrelagh O'Slevin, together with > an O'Donnell, is described as "pure Irish of the Irish nation" when charged > > with acquisition of lands contrary to statute; and again in the Survey of > Co. Fermanagh made in 1603 Munter Slevins are cited as "carbes" (coarbs) of > > Killtyerman in the barony of Lurg. > > > I myself have never been able to find the source of MacLysaght's > statement that the Sleibhins were Cenel Eoghain (or at least some of them > were). > But given the fact that they are M222 and match the O Cathains of > Londonderry Co. in Ireland it seems possible this is true. > > So what does that portend for a Patterson who is really a Lamont? > > It's extremely difficult not to think of the tale of the O Cathains > bride in this context. > > The clan Donald, Volume 1 > By Archibald Macdonald > > "The lady's portion took the form of 140 men out of every surname in > O'Cathain's territory, and the descendants of those who left representatives > are > known to this day in the Highlands as "tochradh nighean a' Chathanaich" - > the dowry of O'Cathain's daughter. > > The name of some of these immigrants have come down by tradition. Two > families, the Munroes, so called because they came from the innermost Roe > water > in the County of Derry, their name being originally O'Millan, and the > Roses of Kilravoxk, rose to territorial distinction in the North Highlands. > > The other names preserved by Hugh Macdonald are the Fearns, Dingwalls, > Beatons, Macphersons, Bulikes of Cathiness, while the MS of 1700 mentions, > in > addition to the foregoing, Dunbar, Maelinen, and the MacGilleglasses. > > Divided Gaels: Gaelic cultural identities in Scotland and Ireland, > c.1200-c.1650 > By Wilson McLeod > > Marriags of Irishwomen to Scottish chiefs were also arranged, notably the > celebrated union (c. 1300) between Aongus Oge Mac Domhnaill (+ c. 1329) and > > Aine, daugher of Cu Miaghe na nGall O Cathain of the Ciannachta in modern > cdo. Derry, for which a number of learned men were provided as dowry (known > > as 'tochardh nighean a' Chathanaich' in later Scottish tradition), whose > progeny went on to become some of the leading lights of late medieval > Gaelic > Scotland. > > Note in this material the surname Dunbar. There is a small group of > Dunbars who are M222 and do not match the great majority of other Dunbars in > the > databases. In phylogenetic trees of various kinds they routinely cluster > near the McLaughlins and Dohertys of Ireland. The McLaughlins of Ireland > (at least the Donegal variety) were also Cenel Eoghain. > > It's interesting to note that within the line of the High Kings of > Ireland the O Cathains were one of the closet relatives of the McLaughlins > of > Donegal, splitting off the main line in about 700 AD. The McLaughlins > appeared from the same line about two centuries later. Yet they do not > match in > DNA except for the fact that both are M222. > > The original tale of the O Cathain bride came from two sources, the 17th > century History of the McDonalds by Hugh McDonald and the Book of Clanranald > > of about the same date. > > > > John > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sandy, Aha! Now I understand what you mean. But the anglicization "Cain" is a misspelling of Ó Catháin ('Grandson of Little Battle'). It only looks like the Irish word cáin ('law' or, in Modern Irish, 'tax') when it's misspelled this way. Meanwhile, McCann is an anglicization / misspelling of Mac Cana - 'Son of Wolf Cub'. (Wolves were hugely admired in Gaelic society yielding the surnames Ó Faoláin, Ó Coileáin, Ó Faolchon, etc.) Again, no relationship to the English word 'law'. Go raibh sé seo cabhrach. / Hope this helps. Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 3:11 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS What I find interesting is that with the extension to 111-markers, the McHenrys and the Cains & variants are no longer obvious kin. The Cain and Kane in the M222 project plus my haplotype all have DYS439=13 DYS570=18 DYS446=14+ DYS715=23 DYS513=14 DYS643=11 The DYS643=11 looks particularly rare, and if you have a look at L21+ you'll see that it shows very little dispersion from 10, which is overwhelmingly modal in both M222 and L21. In the O'Cathain group of Ulster Heritage, only a solitary Cain has the above, with Devenny, McHenry and Slavin not matching any of the 68-111 marker ones. Slaven though, matches two other off-modal markers with me in the 68-111 marker group. So to me, it looks like the Cain/Kane/McCann grouping in Barry's group are going to end up distinctly different to all other surnames, yet they match me on some unusual markers. So I'm still batting on the side of Cain = Law Cain = Lagman Kane Laumon McCann Lamont Both descended from Orcanus. -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com Sent: 25 June 2011 02:49 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS I haven't looked at those 111 marker results lately myself. There are 59 results showing now - a few more if you count the non or pre M222 sections. I looked at your closest matches in the 111 marker section. Interesting. Two Kanes and a Slevins. But then you've mentioned those matches before. I looked at the Kains/Cains in several different projects, including that of Barra McCain, who first identified the DNA of O Cathain of Ulster. On a different O Cathain site at FTDNA it seems there are some Cain/Kane variants that do not belong in the cluster. The Ulster O Cathains as identified by Barra always cluster nicely around several McHenry samples, a related Irish sept said to have split off the O Cathain line in about 1400 AD. The FTDNA site also has a McCloskey sample that matches nicely although it's only 25 markers. McCloseky is another sept said to descend from the Ulster O Cathains. The O Cathains were a Cenel Eoghain sept, said to descend from the line of the High Kings of Ireland prior to the O'Neills and MacLochlainns. How might the Slevins fit into this picture? According to MacLysaght, the surname Slevin/Sleven (O Sleibhin) was a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in Ulster; an old ecclesiastical family in Fermanagh. Some later settled in Westmeath in the 17th century. He adds more in More Irish Families. "More Irish Families" by Dr. Edward MacLysaght: (O) Slevin, Slavin: Both the forms Slevin and Slavin are found today in about equal numbers, chiefly in Ulster, 18 of the 25 births registered for the name in Matheson's test year being in that province. O Sleibhin, which is said to be derived from the Irish word 'sliabh' (a mountain) was the name of a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in Ulster, famous in the early midiaeval period as poets. Giolla Comhghaill O Sleibhin, chief bard of Ulster, was associated with King Malachy in the northern resistance to Brian Boru; other Ulster poets of the name about the same time are mentioned by the Four Masters, as well as one who was chief poet of Oriel in 1168. Though seldom met with in historical records after that time, they evidently did not sink into obscurity since as late as 1514 we find in the Ormond Deeds a judgement of the Liberty Court of Tipperary in which Terrelagh O'Slevin, together with an O'Donnell, is described as "pure Irish of the Irish nation" when charged with acquisition of lands contrary to statute; and again in the Survey of Co. Fermanagh made in 1603 Munter Slevins are cited as "carbes" (coarbs) of Killtyerman in the barony of Lurg. I myself have never been able to find the source of MacLysaght's statement that the Sleibhins were Cenel Eoghain (or at least some of them were). But given the fact that they are M222 and match the O Cathains of Londonderry Co. in Ireland it seems possible this is true. So what does that portend for a Patterson who is really a Lamont? It's extremely difficult not to think of the tale of the O Cathains bride in this context. The clan Donald, Volume 1 By Archibald Macdonald "The lady's portion took the form of 140 men out of every surname in O'Cathain's territory, and the descendants of those who left representatives are known to this day in the Highlands as "tochradh nighean a' Chathanaich" - the dowry of O'Cathain's daughter. The name of some of these immigrants have come down by tradition. Two families, the Munroes, so called because they came from the innermost Roe water in the County of Derry, their name being originally O'Millan, and the Roses of Kilravoxk, rose to territorial distinction in the North Highlands. The other names preserved by Hugh Macdonald are the Fearns, Dingwalls, Beatons, Macphersons, Bulikes of Cathiness, while the MS of 1700 mentions, in addition to the foregoing, Dunbar, Maelinen, and the MacGilleglasses. Divided Gaels: Gaelic cultural identities in Scotland and Ireland, c.1200-c.1650 By Wilson McLeod Marriags of Irishwomen to Scottish chiefs were also arranged, notably the celebrated union (c. 1300) between Aongus Oge Mac Domhnaill (+ c. 1329) and Aine, daugher of Cu Miaghe na nGall O Cathain of the Ciannachta in modern cdo. Derry, for which a number of learned men were provided as dowry (known as 'tochardh nighean a' Chathanaich' in later Scottish tradition), whose progeny went on to become some of the leading lights of late medieval Gaelic Scotland. Note in this material the surname Dunbar. There is a small group of Dunbars who are M222 and do not match the great majority of other Dunbars in the databases. In phylogenetic trees of various kinds they routinely cluster near the McLaughlins and Dohertys of Ireland. The McLaughlins of Ireland (at least the Donegal variety) were also Cenel Eoghain. It's interesting to note that within the line of the High Kings of Ireland the O Cathains were one of the closet relatives of the McLaughlins of Donegal, splitting off the main line in about 700 AD. The McLaughlins appeared from the same line about two centuries later. Yet they do not match in DNA except for the fact that both are M222. The original tale of the O Cathain bride came from two sources, the 17th century History of the McDonalds by Hugh McDonald and the Book of Clanranald of about the same date. John R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think they have 2 off-modal matches out of 111 markers. That doesn't suggest that they are close kin. All M222 are of course kin, it's just a question of how far back. I don't yet have a model for 111-markers, so you are correct that I don't have a time-scale. However, I do have a model for 67 marker haplotypes so I'll have a look and post. Sandy -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Howard Sent: 25 June 2011 13:00 To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS Sandy, You have no comparison time scale to say that they are no longer obvious kin. The haplotypes might be distinctly different in the region above 37 markers, but they could still be related within the genealogical time scale. - Bye from Bill Howard ' On Jun 25, 2011, at 3:11 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > What I find interesting is that with the extension to 111-markers, the > McHenrys and the Cains & variants are no longer obvious kin. >

Hi Charles, Also, if you like, I can send you a sound file pronouncing the name. Was your ancestor who came over in 1740 an Ó Catháin? Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 9:54 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS As one of the "Cain/Kanes" mentioned by Sandy (regarding off-modal matches in the trans-67 markers), let me make several comments: 1.The O'Kane history is recounted in some detail in a book by T.M. Mullin and J.E. Mullan titled "The Ulster Clans." 2. At least one origin of the McHenry surname is dated in this book to the early 1400s. Henry O'Cathain was the son of Dermot who died in 1428. Dermot's father was Cooey Na Gaal O'Cathain (have to like that name!). 3. Because of this reference, and because the largest non-Cain group of matches I find on FTDNA are the McHenrys, I am unsure of Sandy's hypothesis regarding a divorce between the McHenrys and O'Kanes. Whatever you find Sandy, I am really interested. 4. And finally, since my first North American ancestor arrived in 1740, I am a little rusty in the old language. So, how do you pronounce "O'Cathain?" Is the "th" silent? Charles Cain Quoting Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com>: > I think they have 2 off-modal matches out of 111 markers. That doesn't > suggest that they are close kin. All M222 are of course kin, it's just > a question of how far back. > > I don't yet have a model for 111-markers, so you are correct that I > don't have a time-scale. However, I do have a model for 67 marker > haplotypes so I'll have a look and post. > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Howard > Sent: 25 June 2011 13:00 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS > > Sandy, > You have no comparison time scale to say that they are no longer > obvious kin. > The haplotypes might be distinctly different in the region above 37 > markers, but they could still be related within the genealogical time scale. > - Bye from Bill Howard > ' > On Jun 25, 2011, at 3:11 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > >> What I find interesting is that with the extension to 111-markers, >> the McHenrys and the Cains & variants are no longer obvious kin. >> > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > R1b1c7 Research and Links: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A Chathail a chara / Hi Charles, In Ó Catháin, the th is pronounced as an h. In most dialects á is pronounced like aw. But in Ulster, it's usually ah (although there is one dialect variation I know of). The result is that Catháin is pronounced as 2 syllables rather than one, with even stress across the two syllables. (Originally stress is on the first syllable in Ulster Irish but the accent mark on the a in the second syllable evens out the stress.) Would you have the Irish spelling on Cooey Na Gaal? Sorry to say that this anglicization makes it impossible to identify his real name. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Jerry Cló an Druaidh / The Druid Press www.druidpress.com -----Original Message----- From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Charles Cain Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2011 9:54 AM To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS As one of the "Cain/Kanes" mentioned by Sandy (regarding off-modal matches in the trans-67 markers), let me make several comments: 1.The O'Kane history is recounted in some detail in a book by T.M. Mullin and J.E. Mullan titled "The Ulster Clans." 2. At least one origin of the McHenry surname is dated in this book to the early 1400s. Henry O'Cathain was the son of Dermot who died in 1428. Dermot's father was Cooey Na Gaal O'Cathain (have to like that name!). 3. Because of this reference, and because the largest non-Cain group of matches I find on FTDNA are the McHenrys, I am unsure of Sandy's hypothesis regarding a divorce between the McHenrys and O'Kanes. Whatever you find Sandy, I am really interested. 4. And finally, since my first North American ancestor arrived in 1740, I am a little rusty in the old language. So, how do you pronounce "O'Cathain?" Is the "th" silent? Charles Cain

As one of the "Cain/Kanes" mentioned by Sandy (regarding off-modal matches in the trans-67 markers), let me make several comments: 1.The O'Kane history is recounted in some detail in a book by T.M. Mullin and J.E. Mullan titled "The Ulster Clans." 2. At least one origin of the McHenry surname is dated in this book to the early 1400s. Henry O'Cathain was the son of Dermot who died in 1428. Dermot's father was Cooey Na Gaal O'Cathain (have to like that name!). 3. Because of this reference, and because the largest non-Cain group of matches I find on FTDNA are the McHenrys, I am unsure of Sandy's hypothesis regarding a divorce between the McHenrys and O'Kanes. Whatever you find Sandy, I am really interested. 4. And finally, since my first North American ancestor arrived in 1740, I am a little rusty in the old language. So, how do you pronounce "O'Cathain?" Is the "th" silent? Charles Cain Quoting Sandy Paterson <alexanderpatterson@btinternet.com>: > I think they have 2 off-modal matches out of 111 markers. That doesn't > suggest that they are close kin. All M222 are of course kin, it's just a > question of how far back. > > I don't yet have a model for 111-markers, so you are correct that I don't > have a time-scale. However, I do have a model for 67 marker haplotypes so > I'll have a look and post. > > Sandy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Howard > Sent: 25 June 2011 13:00 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS > > Sandy, > You have no comparison time scale to say that they are no longer obvious > kin. > The haplotypes might be distinctly different in the region above 37 markers, > but they could still be related within the genealogical time scale. > - Bye from Bill Howard > ' > On Jun 25, 2011, at 3:11 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > >> What I find interesting is that with the extension to 111-markers, the >> McHenrys and the Cains & variants are no longer obvious kin. >> > > R1b1c7 Research and Links: > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

My RCC time scale shows a strong bunching of associations at RCC about 20. The time scale puts that at about 1000 AD, and this corresponds to the time at which surnames appeared. Of course, the DNA connection goes back much further. If you have a good genealogy that goes back that far, that's fine, and you can trust it because it is good. But to see where DNA connections occur and when important early mutations occurred, you must look at the DNA result. The phylogenetic tree that John posted shows those early connections. The more recent ones become more uncertain because of hidden mutations that affect the DNA but not the position on a good pedigree. If the 37 marker RCC of a group of people shows relationships with RCC of 20 or less, then they are probably related within the genealogical time scale, regardless of how diverse their markers are at 67 or 111 marker tests. The latter will suffer also from random mutations and you rapidly reach the "law of diminishing returns". So one should not over-interpret relationships at these higher marker tests, just as one should not over-interpret the position on the phylogenetic tree when only a small number of haplotypes are compared. Best regards, Bye from Bill Howard On Jun 25, 2011, at 8:49 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > Here are the 67-marker figures for Cain 69577 and McHenry 27077 > > > No of Obs F(T<=5) F(T<=10) F(T<=15) F(T<=20) > F(T<=25) F(T<=30) > > 6,897 .000 .005 .050 .153 > .377 .598 > > I've never been able to figure out what the genealogical time scale is, but > I would imagine few people are able to get back much further than 15 > generations. So yes, there is about a 5% chance that they may be related > within the last 15 generations, based on 67-marker results. That rises to > about 15% if you use 20 generations as the genealogical time scale. > > Once more 111-marker results are available, I'll extend my website to > include 111-marker analysis. But even without that, 111-marker results > suggest that Cain/McHenry are less closely related than previously thought. > > > Sandy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Bill Howard > Sent: 25 June 2011 13:00 > To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS > > Sandy, > You have no comparison time scale to say that they are no longer obvious > kin. > The haplotypes might be distinctly different in the region above 37 markers, > but they could still be related within the genealogical time scale. > - Bye from Bill Howard > ' > On Jun 25, 2011, at 3:11 AM, Sandy Paterson wrote: > >> What I find interesting is that with the extension to 111-markers, the >> McHenrys and the Cains & variants are no longer obvious kin. >> >> The Cain and Kane in the M222 project plus my haplotype all have >> >> DYS439=13 >> DYS570=18 >> DYS446=14+ >> DYS715=23 >> DYS513=14 >> DYS643=11 >> >> The DYS643=11 looks particularly rare, and if you have a look at L21+ > you'll >> see that it shows very little dispersion from 10, which is overwhelmingly >> modal in both M222 and L21. >> >> In the O'Cathain group of Ulster Heritage, only a solitary Cain has the >> above, with Devenny, McHenry and Slavin not matching any of the 68-111 >> marker ones. Slaven though, matches two other off-modal markers with me in >> the 68-111 marker group. >> >> So to me, it looks like the Cain/Kane/McCann grouping in Barry's group are >> going to end up distinctly different to all other surnames, yet they match >> me on some unusual markers. >> >> So I'm still batting on the side of >> >> Cain = Law >> >> Cain = Lagman >> Kane Laumon >> McCann Lamont >> >> Both descended from Orcanus. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:dna-r1b1c7-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lochlan@aol.com >> Sent: 25 June 2011 02:49 >> To: dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [R-M222] 111-Marker RESULTS >> >> I haven't looked at those 111 marker results lately myself. There are 59 > >> results showing now - a few more if you count the non or pre M222 >> sections. >> >> I looked at your closest matches in the 111 marker section. >> Interesting. Two Kanes and a Slevins. But then you've mentioned those >> matches >> before. I looked at the Kains/Cains in several different projects, >> including >> that of Barra McCain, who first identified the DNA of O Cathain of > Ulster. >> >> On a different O Cathain site at FTDNA it seems there are some Cain/Kane >> variants that do not belong in the cluster. The Ulster O Cathains as >> identified by Barra always cluster nicely around several McHenry samples, > a >> related >> Irish sept said to have split off the O Cathain line in about 1400 AD. >> The FTDNA site also has a McCloskey sample that matches nicely although >> it's >> only 25 markers. McCloseky is another sept said to descend from the > Ulster >> >> O Cathains. >> >> The O Cathains were a Cenel Eoghain sept, said to descend from the line of > >> the High Kings of Ireland prior to the O'Neills and MacLochlainns. How >> might the Slevins fit into this picture? According to MacLysaght, the >> surname Slevin/Sleven (O Sleibhin) was a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in >> Ulster; >> an old ecclesiastical family in Fermanagh. Some later settled in > Westmeath >> >> in the 17th century. >> >> He adds more in More Irish Families. >> >> "More Irish Families" by Dr. Edward MacLysaght: >> >> (O) Slevin, Slavin: Both the forms Slevin and Slavin are found today in >> about equal numbers, chiefly in Ulster, 18 of the 25 births registered for >> the >> name in Matheson's test year being in that province. O Sleibhin, which is >> said to be derived from the Irish word 'sliabh' (a mountain) was the name > >> of a branch of the Cenel Eoghain in Ulster, famous in the early midiaeval > >> period as poets. Giolla Comhghaill O Sleibhin, chief bard of Ulster, was >> associated with King Malachy in the northern resistance to Brian Boru; >> other >> Ulster poets of the name about the same time are mentioned by the Four >> Masters, as well as one who was chief poet of Oriel in 1168. Though > seldom >> met >> with in historical records after that time, they evidently did not sink >> into >> obscurity since as late as 1514 we find in the Ormond Deeds a judgement > of >> the Liberty Court of Tipperary in which Terrelagh O'Slevin, together with > >> an O'Donnell, is described as "pure Irish of the Irish nation" when > charged >> >> with acquisition of lands contrary to statute; and again in the Survey of > >> Co. Fermanagh made in 1603 Munter Slevins are cited as "carbes" (coarbs) > of >> >> Killtyerman in the barony of Lurg. >> >> >> I myself have never been able to find the source of MacLysaght's >> statement that the Sleibhins were Cenel Eoghain (or at least some of them >> were). >> But given the fact that they are M222 and match the O Cathains of >> Londonderry Co. in Ireland it seems possible this is true. >> >> So what does that portend for a Patterson who is really a Lamont? >> >> It's extremely difficult not to think of the tale of the O Cathains >> bride in this context. >> >> The clan Donald, Volume 1 >> By Archibald Macdonald >> >> "The lady's portion took the form of 140 men out of every surname in >> O'Cathain's territory, and the descendants of those who left > representatives >> are >> known to this day in the Highlands as "tochradh nighean a' Chathanaich" - >> the dowry of O'Cathain's daughter. >> >> The name of some of these immigrants have come down by tradition. Two >> families, the Munroes, so called because they came from the innermost Roe >> water >> in the County of Derry, their name being originally O'Millan, and the >> Roses of Kilravoxk, rose to territorial distinction in the North > Highlands. >> >> The other names preserved by Hugh Macdonald are the Fearns, Dingwalls, >> Beatons, Macphersons, Bulikes of Cathiness, while the MS of 1700 > mentions, >> in >> addition to the foregoing, Dunbar, Maelinen, and the MacGilleglasses. >> >> Divided Gaels: Gaelic cultural identities in Scotland and Ireland, >> c.1200-c.1650 >> By Wilson McLeod >> >> Marriags of Irishwomen to Scottish chiefs were also arranged, notably the > >> celebrated union (c. 1300) between Aongus Oge Mac Domhnaill (+ c. 1329) > and >> >> Aine, daugher of Cu Miaghe na nGall O Cathain of the Ciannachta in modern >> cdo. Derry, for which a number of learned men were provided as dowry > (known >> >> as 'tochardh nighean a' Chathanaich' in later Scottish tradition), whose >> progeny went on to become some of the leading lights of late medieval >> Gaelic >> Scotland. >> >> Note in this material the surname Dunbar. There is a small group of >> Dunbars who are M222 and do not match the great majority of other Dunbars > in >> the >> databases. In phylogenetic trees of various kinds they routinely cluster > >> near the McLaughlins and Dohertys of Ireland. The McLaughlins of Ireland > >> (at least the Donegal variety) were also Cenel Eoghain. >> >> It's interesting to note that within the line of the High Kings of >> Ireland the O Cathains were one of the closet relatives of the McLaughlins >> of >> Donegal, splitting off the main line in about 700 AD. The McLaughlins >> appeared from the same line about two centuries later. Yet they do not >> match in >> DNA except for the fact that both are M222. >> >> The original tale of the O Cathain bride came from two sources, the 17th >> century History of the McDonalds by Hugh McDonald and the Book of > Clanranald >> >> of about the same date. >> >> >> >> John >> >> >> > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DNA-R1B1C7-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message